Kyron Horman -- Missing 6/4/10 #3

I know that some of them are posting on scared monkeys and they also have a site that socaldreamer started in case GLP got shut down called socallinks. You have to be registered there to even read it, I think. I don't think any of them on GLP knew the entire thread would be deleted.

I think this is the link if anyone is interested.

http://socallinkss.proboards.com/index.cgi?

johnabelle wrote:What day exactly was it that Dede moved in with Terri?
I know Dede posted on Terri's fb wall on the 5th and there were some comments made that Terri didn't respond to the post.
Who contacted dede? It wasn't Terri. Was it Terri's mom because a friend suggested Dede might could stay with her?
There is so much information or rumors in this case I can't remember all the details.

When would Terri and Dede have planned this elaborate scheme to take Kyron from school? If I remember correctly, they hadn't spoken or seen each other since Terri's birthday party in March.

In a news story from oregonlive, dated June 28th, I found the following information.

Terri Horman had said the only change in their household was the arrival of her dad, Larry Moulton, from Roseburg to support her. Her mom, Carol, has been with the family since soon after Kyron's disappearance to help out.

By 8 p.m. Monday, at least four friends had driven up the gravel driveway at Terri Horman's blue, two-story house set in woodlands in rural northwest Multnomah County to console their embattled friend after learning of the divorce.

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The friends aren't mentioned by name, but it is likely that one of them is Dede and she moved in with Terri at that time, June 28th, because none of the others could stay with her.

So Dede becomes a suspect when Terri's timeline is to tight to have made it possible for her to have taken Kyron without help, and there were no witnesses that saw Kyron with Terri at any of the stores she went to immediately after having left the school.

I don't remember reading anywhere, and I can't find any articles that show that Terri and Dede were communicating with or seeing each other after March 14th or before June 5th. Does anyone have any information that shows they were?

On June 4th, Kyron was marked absent from school later in the day according to the earliest news reports, which have since been changed, and then in later news reports, Mrs. Porter says she marked him absent at 10:00 AM.

Dede was supposed to be at work at 9 AM. A witness says that Dede left from her job at 11:30 AM and her whereabouts were unknown for an hour and a half. Even if she did, (she says that she never left)--Kyron has been missing since 10:00 AM.

Dede's home was searched and items taken by LE on July 23rd after she became a suspect in Kyron's disappearance. I think this would probably be around the same time that TJ says he contacted LE with a tip, but I don't believe Dede or Terri have anything to do with Kyron's disappearance, or even if one is involved they are not in it together, because I don't believe they planned to take Kyron from the school on the day of the science fair, weeks or months before the science fair was announced.

How did so many people get the idea or come to believe that Terri got Dede to help her take Kyron from school on June 4th?
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This is another news article that I found that confirms that the 28th of June is the date Dede moved in with Terri.

DeDe Spicher, the "mystery woman" in the Kyron Horman case, says her friend Terri Horman was in a crisis of grief and fear in the weeks following her 7-year-old stepson's disappearance on June 4.

"We were very worried for her life. There were death threats against her. And again, whoever has taken Kyron is still out there and could be after her, too," Spicher, 43, tells PEOPLE in an exclusive new interview.

[A longtime friend of Terri's, Spicher stayed with her for 11 days beginning June 28, shortly after Terri's wife Kaine left her. "When Terri's parents had to leave to go back home, they asked if I would stay with her to help keep her safe," she says. "And I said of course I would."]

She continues: "I dropped everything I was doing, and I went to see what my friend needed. And that's when I learned she had been served with the divorce papers, there was a restraining order and a story about a murder-for-hire or something. So, it was clear that she was very distraught."

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20413793,00.html

There doesn't seem to be any information online that I can find, that puts Terri and Dede in contact with each other after March 14th or before June 5th, and they were not in contact again until the 28th, so unless LE has information not released to the public, those claiming Dede helped Terri take Kyron from school are stating nothing more than opinions, rumors and false accusations, which I already knew, but I asked in case I missed something. And for the person, if you're reading here, who stated the sex/text messages show they were together, those were not sent until the 30th of June and do not prove they were together. It has not even been proven that Terri is the person responsible for them, and the bat phones were purchased after Kyron disappeared, not before.

Keep in mind that it is Kaine, not LE, who is implying DeDe is involved with Kyron's disappearance. LE has not bothered with her since her GJ testimony.

How do we know if LE has bothered Dede or not?

I am wondering if Kaine allowed Terri to stay in the house after he took Kiara because LE had it under audio surveillance. Kaine, as the legal home owner could have authorized it. Or, a judge could have authorized it when LE claimed they had sufficient cause to believe a MFH plot was underway. In this case, DeDe's time living with Terri at the house would have been recorded. If DeDe was cooperating with LE and agreed to engage Terri in conversation about Kyron, I wouldn't hold it against her. If she believes in Terri's innocence, she would believe nothing incriminating would be discussed; just the opposite.

truthbtold wrote:I think the sexts are so completely irrelevant that they won't end up being admitted as evidence in a criminal trial if Terri is ever prosecuted, authentic or not. They were only relevant to Terri's character/suitability in family court. Even that was a long shot - not sure it mattered much to the judge. The MFH allegations were probably the driving force for the judge granting Kaine's request for custody and RO. Kiara's safety was at risk if the judge considered there was the slightest possibility that the MFH allegations might be true; the sexting was petty garnish.

I'm not sure the reasoning behind LE showing those messages to Kiane, that is if they were the ones to originally find them, as opposed to MC or Kiane handing them over. As earlier stated, they happened a month after Kyron disappeared and had no relevance to the abduction. It seems to me that maybe a couple of the good old boys in the LE thought they would give Kiane ammunition for his divorce.

bebecat wrote:How do we know if LE has bothered Dede or not?

Because the media would report it in a nanosecond~?

I don't think Dede's every move is tracked by the media, either way. She may or may not be on LE's radar at this point, or since she has a lawyer, LE may not be asking her to answer any more questions. Who the H knows...

bebecat wrote:I don't think Dede's every move is tracked by the media, either way. She may or may not be on LE's radar at this point, or since she has a lawyer, LE may not be asking her to answer any more questions. Who the H knows...

I understand that DeDe is living with her folks in Klamath Falls. That's a good six hours away from Portland. Also, I think it just reaches a point where there are no more questions to ask. If no one saw you at 10:00am, then no matter how many times or ways they word the question, it boils down to just ... no one saw you at 10:00am

johnabelle wrote:So Dede becomes a suspect when Terri's timeline is to tight to have made it possible for her to have taken Kyron without help, and there were no witnesses that saw Kyron with Terri at any of the stores she went to immediately after having left the school.

I think you just nailed that one down.

johnabelle wrote:Dede was supposed to be at work at 9 AM. A witness says that Dede left from her job at 11:30 AM and her whereabouts were unknown for an hour and a half. Even if she did, (she says that she never left)--Kyron has been missing since 10:00 AM.

11:30 AM, okay so she went to lunch. No crime there.

johnabelle wrote:How did so many people get the idea or come to believe that Terri got Dede to help her take Kyron from school on June 4th?

As I recall, it was originally reported or claimed that DeDe was working at home in her garden and left around 11:30 AM. That got people believing she took a shovel (or I suppose more correctly a spade) with her to help Terri bury Kyron somewhere.

DeDe Spicher told People magazine this week that she never left the property where she was gardening on the day 7-year-old Kyron Horman disappeared from Skyline School.

http://www.kptv.com/news/24658643/detail.html

So, it would appear people assumed she was at home, when in fact she was somewhere else, but it seems the gardening thing is why people thought she was involved.

That would also contradict the claims of the co-worker.

KGW has learned that investigators have conducted several searches related to Speicher, including of property belonging to relatives of hers. They have also spoken with people who were in contact with her the day Kyron disappeared.

According to these sources, investigators want to know from Speicher - who spent days with Terri after Kaine moved out, taking their daughter with him - what Terri may have told her about the day Kyron disappeared and whether she was in contact with Terri on that day.

Calls to Spicher's attorney were not returned.

http://www.krem.com/news/northwest-news/Kyron-investigators-want-more-info-from-DeDe-Spicher-99718399.html

Of course we know now that info came from Kaine so it is irrelevant.

johnabelle wrote:And for the person, if you're reading here, who stated the sex/text messages show they were together, those were not sent until the 30th of June and do not prove they were together. It has not even been proven that Terri is the person responsible for them, and the bat phones were purchased after Kyron disappeared, not before.

Kaine purchased the phones and gave one to Terri and kept the other for himself (we know that from court records), which proves he was trying to set up his wife for whatever reason, either because he is guilty and is trying to frame her or he deluded himself into believing she was.

To date, I have not seen any photos from the alleged "sexting" and even though I have only seen bits and pieces of the alleged "sexting" I have seen absolutely nothing that suggests it was "sexting." If I recall correctly, it's blinkoncrime that has the court documents which prove Kaine purchased the phones.

Again, the only person who does not have a solid verifiable alibi or time-line is Kaine.

This shocked me. Here's video on a news program this weekend; shows Desiree saying that Terri is guilty and will be arrested. Could LE really have authorized this statement? What is Desiree's goal by saying this on tv? If she doesn't have 100 percent proof, she's just minimizing the chance that people will be keeping their eyes open for a possible perp. If she thinks she has 100 percent proof, how does this help the case against Terri? I feel terribly for her and wouldn't want to be in her shoes. But, honestly, she doesn't seem to be very sharp or else she is just careless (at least where it involves strategy in Kyron's case). Puzzling.

http://www.localnewscomesfirst.com/index.php?option=com_seyret&Itemid=431&task=videodirectlink&id=6971

Peace to Kyron and all who love him....

The last time we heard from Stanton, he said that he had asked both Kaine and Desiree to refrain from discussing the case publicly without going through his office. Did Desiree ignore that request, or did LE approve her making the statement of Terri's guilt and imminent arrest? It matters to me only because it might help determine what direction the investigation has really taken. Thoughts?

IIRC, the statement by Desiree was made before Staton told Kaine and Desiree to stop sharing things under the guise of it coming from MCSO.

Last night I checked out the accusation that Portland is the child trafficking/child porn capital of the U.S. Sadly, its true. Maybe that is what Staton meant by his statement that there were things he wish he didn't know. IDK, it seems that would be something he'd know about.

Yes, Desiree made that statement in a previous presser.
She spoke those words to Terri - "You will be arrested, you will go to jail"

The video truthbtold posted shows Desiree in the Walgreen's over the weekend when the video was filmed. Maybe she feels she's only repeating what she said before, not giving out new information. I wouldn't want to be in her shoes either.

Oh, ok! I watched it but not very closely-geesh! And I thought tbt was losin' it-lol! Sorry, tbt!

I wouldn't want to be in her shoes either but she needs a spokesman to speak for her and one that can keep statements like that out of the press/medias. It could bite her if Terri wanted to sue for defamation of character (presuming Terri is not guilty of harming Kyron). In the least it would be most embarassing to have pointed out the wrong person responsible.

I think Desiree will continue to say that at any given chance. She wants Terri to hear her, she's confident Terri is the one responsible.

Piper wrote:I think Desiree will continue to say that at any given chance. She wants Terri to hear her, she's confident Terri is the one responsible.

And she has seen and is aware of a great deal more evidence amassed by LE than we are.

Sherry said:
Oh, ok! I watched it but not very closely-geesh! And I thought tbt was losin' it-lol! Sorry, tbt!

No worries Sherry!

tbt,

Wonder if anyone with legal experience reads/posts here.

IIRC, the divorce court date is set for early January.
--Since no charges have been filed for MFH and Terri is not named a suspect in the abduction, would the restraining order and custody orders likely be overturned? These were the two main allegations Kaine used against Terri to obtain full temporary custody without visitation (from what was reported).
--Would Desiree's continued public statements that Terri going to jail make Houze reluctant for Terri to testify about anything until he knows if/what criminal charges will be brought? According to Staton, LE isn't expecting any official changes in Kyron's case until February.

Kaine really boxed Terri in when he used criminal allegations to justify the custody order. Innocent or not, looks like Terri should continue to say nothing of public record. Once she is accused of something non-criminal in the custody case (true on not), it could find its way into the criminal case as a character or circumstantial allegation. What a mess....

If anyone has any legal insight, would love to learn more about the implications...

by awaiting justice Today at 2:19 pm

Not a lwyer, but believe that when any order expires, it expires... If it needs to be renewed or kept in place, an order wud have to be filed for an extension...

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Makes sense - thanks aj!
If the orders expire on Jan 6 , then Terri has to defend herself against Kaine's re-filing in family court to either regain custody or request visitation. Unless Houze has some surprises up his sleeve since the last time they went to family court (and Terri dropped her request for visitation), guess Terri will again be advised not to testify on her own behalf. Will be interesting to see what happens.

awaiting justice wrote:Soulpatch says..

" And she has seen and is aware of a great deal more evidence amassed by LE than we are."

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Not so sure of this, although I am sure they (K and D) wud like the public to believe it...apparently it still seems to be working!

We will all find out soon!

soulpatch,
I hope you're right about a resolution coming soon. The sooner the whole truth comes out and Kyron is found, the better. As long as LE gets the right person(s), then Kyron can start to heal, or he can rest in peace.

I'm not sure but I think the restraining order was for one year?

The divorce case is not going to help with Kyron's whereabouts...it will just make for some more news stories. Instead of reminding people about Kyron this way, they should show those samples of his clothes again...most people won't remember and the might not even notice a faded black t-shirt in the snow, for example...I don't think Kyron is alive. In case he isn't, Le needs to remind people what to look for, besides looking for Kyron in malls, etc...he won't be out shopping...

bebecat,
I can't find anything indicating when the RO and custody orders expire either. I agree that the divorce case won't help bring Kyron home. I think it distracts, rather than assists, the search for Kyron. It surprised me that Kaine filed for divorce when he did. In other cases where a parent suspected a spouse in a missing child case, they didn't want time or focus taken away from the child and didn't file for divorce at this juncture. Can't figure out if he saw the timing and public persecution of Terri as the perfect opportunity to assure he'd get sole custody of Kiara, OR if he is just as interested in hurting Terri as he is in finding Kyron, OR if he is so totally convinced that it is only Terri that can help find Kyron that he doesn't care about taking the focus off the search (and thinks more isolation and public persecution is the way to get Terri to crack).

While it won't help find Kyron, did some research to better understand the impact of parallel civil and criminal cases. If anyone else is interested, below is a summary of the issues regarding implications to the defendant and how they might apply to the Horman matter.

I Plead The 5th!” When Civil Defendants Face Related Criminal Charges
Published October 10, 2008 Litigation Closed

Defendants in civil cases often also face related criminal charges. It thus is critical to balance the interplay of the civil and criminal matters. The plaintiff likely will propound discovery asking for admissions or information that may be incriminating in the criminal matter. Such risks also will be present during depositions. Therefore, care must be taken to protect the defendant’s rights at all phases of litigation.
A defendant has a right to avoid giving testimony to incriminate him. Ga. Const. 1983, Art. I, § I, ¶; XVI. The privilege against self-incrimination extends not only to those answers that would in themselves support a conviction, but also to answers that may establish a link in the chain of evidence needed to prosecute the criminal matter. Chumley v. Georgia, 282 Ga. App. 117, 637 S.E.2d 828 (2006).
However, when a person invokes his privilege against self-incrimination, an inference may be drawn by the fact finder that the witness’ testimony would be unfavorable to him. Simpson v. Simpson, 233 Ga. 17, 209 S.E.2d 611 (Ga. 1974). This can be devastating to the defense in the civil matter. One way to make the best of this difficult situation is to seek a stay in the civil matter pending the outcome of the criminal matter.
truthbtold comment: This is what Houze and Bunch tried to do - put the divorce on hold for 2 years - Kaine and Rackner objected. This is one of the issues that will likely be revisited on Jan. 6.
OCGA § 9-11-26(c) authorizes the trial court to issue a protective order where justice so requires: “Upon motion by a party or by the person from whom discovery is sought and for good cause shown, the court in which the action is pending . . . may make any order which justice requires to protect a party or person from annoyance, embarrassment, oppression, or undue burden or expense, including . . . [t]hat the discovery not be had [or] . . .[t]hat certain matters not be inquired into or that the scope of the discovery be limited to certain matters.” The grant or denial of a motion for protective order generally lies within the sound discretion of the trial court. Bridges v. 20th Century Travel, 149 Ga.App. 837, 839, 256 S.E.2d 102 (1979).

The law generally disfavors complete stays in these situations. See Christopher v. State of Ga., 185 Ga.App. 532, 364 S.E.2d 905 (1988), (“a merely conclusory allegation that any and all discovery would prejudice the criminal investigation, without more, would frustrate legitimate discovery, as would either an unreasonable or indefinite stay”); and Bridges, 149 Ga.App. at 839, 256 S.E.2d at 102 (holding that the trial court will not be able to effectively decide whether the privilege is validly raised unless there is a record of the questions propounded, including those to which the privilege has been asserted and the court considers the implications of each question to which the privilege is raised and the setting in which it is asked and whether the party raising the privilege should provide sufficient information on which the court may find that a real danger of incrimination exists.)
truthbtold comment: this is why Houze is trying to get access to the 911 call and Rudy Sanchez; he can't anticipate what will be brought up in divorce without some insight, and Terri can't prepare to defend herself against MFH allegations in divorce court without knowing what LE would allege in criminal court.

Credit:
http://buckleybrown.wordpress.com/2008/10/10/%E2%80%9Ci-plead-the-5th%E2%80%9D-when-civil-defendants-face-related-criminal-charges/

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I believe kaine filed the divorce and RO in hopes that it would make Terri talk....in order to have the RO lifted, she would have to testify....she has chosen not to incriminate herself by testifying, but it was worth a shot.

People do not remember that it was Kaine's attorney that asked for the documents be sealed....I do not believe that it was his intent to have all the dirty laundry in public, but simply to try to get answers from TMH.

Those are case in Georgia State Court. They do not apply to Oregon. Although the can be cited as persuasive arguments, an Oregon judge can ignore them if he wants to ignore them.

soulpatch wrote:People do not remember that it was Kaine's attorney that asked for the documents be sealed....I do not believe that it was his intent to have all the dirty laundry in public, but simply to try to get answers from TMH.

The documents were sealed to hide the fact that Kaine is manipulating the situation and that his testimony is not truthful. Some of the documents that were unsealed show it was Kaine who purchased the throw-away cell-phones, not Terri.

Mircea wrote:

soulpatch wrote:People do not remember that it was Kaine's attorney that asked for the documents be sealed....I do not believe that it was his intent to have all the dirty laundry in public, but simply to try to get answers from TMH.

The documents were sealed to hide the fact that Kaine is manipulating the situation and that his testimony is not truthful. Some of the documents that were unsealed show it was Kaine who purchased the throw-away cell-phones, not Terri.

I'm sorry, but Lea Conner's analysis is not only incorrect, but misses the point entirely. If you read the court filings, the judge reviewed the evidence FROM LE "in camera". So, unless you are one of those that believes that Kaine Horman is able to manipulate LE, the judge, the local and national media, the FBI and he can leap tall buildings in a single bound, it isn't a feasible or reasonable assumption to make. Rackner is an officer of the court, there is no reason to believe she would support any of the nonsense that Kaine has been accused of. JMO, of course

I don't think he can leap tall building in a single bound, but I also live in a small town. I have seen how easy it is to get officials to fall into a gray area and turn a blind eye to legality in certain cases. Sometimes to protect someone they do not want to see get into trouble, sometimes to punish someone they think deserves it (personally, not professionally).

I can see this happening. Kaine's family is from the area. They have lifelong friendships going on there. And people just want to "help" a little. Since it isn't anything really illegal, they can slide into that little not quite legal area and push things through.

That makes all this legal mumbo jumbo really worthless. Sadly, it is just scrambling to cover some backsides and hope it turns out okay. And not at all about rescuing Kyron, or finding out the truth.

Why anyone would think that Terri (or anyone else) would confess to, what, murder or kidnapping, during the course of a divorce hearing? I can't believe Kaine really thought she would. I mean, if she confessed, she was not going to see the baby anyway, so why would she? She has nothing to gain and everything to lose. Either they are very naive or just said that was the purpose in order to show Terri will not talk.

Soulpatch said: "If you read the court filings, the judge reviewed the evidence FROM LE "in camera". So, unless you are one of those that believes that Kaine Horman is able to manipulate LE, the judge, the local and national media, the FBI and he can leap tall buildings in a single bound, it isn't a feasible or reasonable assumption to make."

But what did the judge read "in camera"? I suspect the in-camera document said, "Police have reason the believe Terri Horman was involved in murder-for-hire plot" -- nothing more. I don't believe there would have been some in-depth evidence. The judge would have simply rubber-stamped the restraining order, with the belief the facts would have shook out in a hearing a few days or a few weeks later.

I don't know why she isn't fighting the RO. It might be, and probably is, her attorneys' advice. It might even be a matter of funds. Her parents' money won't last forever, especially if there is an expensive criminal defense down the road.

I'm not sure her words could be spun to hurt her, in a court. The exact words she uses would be on record and part of an official transcript. I am having a hard time with believing her total innocence if she feels she can't answer questions in a divorce hearing. To me, there must be something she feels she has guilty or guilty knowledge of, even if not to do with Kyron, but rather talking to landscape friend about wishing/wanting Kaine dead. She may not have been serious, may not have mentioned a sum or a method, but may feel she can't say honestly that the conversation never took place. (I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt here...)

Well, she certainly has the right not to speak, in any medium. But fair or not, as long as she does not speak up for herself, especially in the divorce case, people will draw conclusions from that, it is human nature. She can't be charged with crimes against Kyron for keeping silent, so she should proceed as she sees fit.

soulpatch wrote:I'm sorry, but Lea Conner's analysis is not only incorrect, but misses the point entirely.

Her analysis is dead on.

soulpatch wrote: If you read the court filings, the judge reviewed the evidence FROM LE "in camera".

Except for any evidence that originated from Kaine. He would of course have copies/access to it.

soulpatch wrote: So, unless you are one of those that believes that Kaine Horman is able to manipulate LE, the judge

These are Podunk County sheriffs, not TV cops. So they got a job at the jail and maybe went to community college to get an AAS in Criminal Justice (which is about the intake system -- probation/parole etc) while they waited for an opening to be a deputy. Just because they wear badge doesn't mean they know what they're doing.

soulpatch wrote: the local and national media

The Oregonian has already admitted to being manipulated by Kaine. You get a fail on that one too.

soulpatch wrote: the FBI

There's a single FBI agent there, and it's probably an analyst and not a field agent. Big difference.

You also seem to have forgotten he got the entire Intel facility to shut up with a single memo.

soulpatch wrote: Rackner is an officer of the court, there is no reason to believe she would support any of the nonsense that Kaine has been accused of. JMO, of course

You're naive. As a private investigator I wired a client who went to see an attorney at the attorney's invitation. It was her husband's criminal attorney, since he had been arrested for domestic violence. What I got on wire was the attorney explaining how she would take my client's retainer and then launder the money to use for illegal campaign contributions and then bribe a judge. Then the attorney proceeded to coach my client, who was a witness for the prosecution on how to alter her testimony. I gave the tape to the assistant DA who sat on it for 4 months and then I gave my copy to Corky Johnson who ran the I-Team investigations for WLWT (a local NBC affiliate). Corky went down to the court house to ask the DA about it, and the DA ran out the back door of the office, so the camera man and Corky are running (literally) through the court house (this was on TV it was great) and then after getting a warrant they jumped in their cars (so we have a great chase seen) and head up to Walnut Hills to arrest the attorney. It was good for Corky. He got fired from WCPO (a local ABC affiliate) for pursuing the illegal campaign involving Carl Lindner (who owns Chiquita -- you know -- the bananas) who got his son's divorce case moved from domestic court to common pleas court (the only case divorce case ever heard in common pleas in the state of Ohio), because Lindner owns the judge.

Lot of illegal stuff goes on. Lots. Anyway the attorney, who is an officer of the court, got disbarred. There's a law firm here that used to file false affidavits in order to seize people's money in bank accounts. They got sued in federal court and then claimed "qualified immunity" but the 6th District Court of Appeals slapped them down.

I don't really care if Rackner is an officer of the court or Ronald McDonald in disguise. In the real world, lawyers do illegal things.

bebecat wrote:I am having a hard time with believing her total innocence if she feels she can't answer questions in a divorce hearing.

What divorce hearing?

It isn't a divorce hearing, it's an end run around the legal system. What Kaine wants is to put her on trial in divorce court for Kyron's disappearance, which would be a gross abuse of justice and the justice system. She and her attorney are right not to allow that to happen and if she has to invoke her privilege, then that is what she must do.

bebecat wrote:To me, there must be something she feels she has guilty or guilty knowledge of, even if not to do with Kyron, but rather talking to landscape friend about wishing/wanting Kaine dead.

And the source of that info is Kaine, so we don't know whether it is true or not.

Kaine owns the house, so if he's going to divorce, why move out?

If as Kaine claims, he moved out because the police advised him of the murder for hire plot, that doesn't sound right at all. Terri is the one that should have been forced to leave, not Kaine. The police could have legally removed her, but they didn't. A judge surely would have signed off on an order to remove her, but Kaine never asked for one.

And of course, Kaine the control freak claims to know nothing about the landscaper and apparently never asked what the missing money was being spent on.

And he just happened to walk to the bus stop the day Kyron went missing. How many times has Kaine gone to the bus stop during the course of the year to meet Kyron? I'd be willing to bet that was the first time in the entire school year.

I may be "naive" as you say, but your theories are based on nothing but innuendo and faulty logic. You take tiny bits of information and smear them around to paint the picture you want to see.

soulpatch wrote:I may be "naive" as you say, but your theories are based on nothing but innuendo and faulty logic. You take tiny bits of information and smear them around to paint the picture you want to see.

Ironically, this entire case is colored the exact same way.

... WAIT! I must correct myself. The REAL case doesn't have any REAL information. ONLY innuendo and faulty logic. So, I guess the argument here is much more realistic than the one they are touting in the press.

Lots of good posts today - learning much from the differing perspectives.

I don't know if Terri is afraid of incriminating herself because she is guilty of something criminal, or if she is not talking because LE already tried to set her up for a MFH plot, failed, and still let it get out and affect the court of public opinion. None of us knows for certain what Terri has done. One thing that is 100% certain is that Terri is being targeted by LE (rightfully or wrongfully). She would be foolish to open herself up to questions about MFH in divorce court when LE will not show their hand or even release her own 911 call during the attempted sting. On this point, I agree with Mircea. The filing for divorce doesn't appear to be so much about divorce as it does an attempt to squeeze Terri into talking about things that can be used in the criminal investigation and potential trial. That would explain Kaine's timing in filing for divorce, along with LE's reluctance to release discovery to Terri's attorneys (if my understanding is correct, Rackner would expect Terri to answer questions about MFH because of the danger it could present to Kiara - that's the claim at least - but neither LE nor Kaine want to release their information about the alleged plot and foiled sting). This is messy and ugly and not likely to produce anything to help locate Kyron.

I do agree that nothing is going to help find Kyron from any of these marital proceedings. Even assuming Terri knows where Kyron is, she is not in a position to tell anyone unless she wants to admit to a crime (as knowing where is he would be, by this point, a crime, even if she did nothing to put him there).

I honestly don't think Kyron will ever be found. I am very sad to think that even if a trial takes places and Terri is convicted, that we won't know for sure if she in fact really did anything to him at all. I don't remember any circumstantial case without finding a body in the case of a child...there have been so many things thrown out there as to what could have happened to him and LE still says they are acting as though he is alive. I can't think what would come up (exept finding Kyron) that would make them decide to go ahead with murder charges...and how can they charge kidnapping, with no one seeing her do anything? I'm just at a loss...

My opinion as to why Terri may not be talking is that she found out something on someone and they have threatened to possible kill someone she loves, possibly James, if she discloses that information. That could have been the reason for James' name being changed to Moulton before Kyron disappeared. Of course that didn't work, because as you know, there isn't an article published, or very few, that doesn't give her maiden name.

I do not feel that Terri had anything to do with Kyron's disappearance. I believe the reports that Kyron was being abused and I feel the person who abused him is the person who took him. Terri brought that to other people's attention in April, but as is so common in these type of situations, it is considered to be a lie and ignored.

There are reports that Kyron told people that "his momma was dead" I think it is possible that she was threatened in spite of the fact she denied it was her. I believe that she told Kaine about Kyron "humping Kiara" he told her that if you tell that "you're dead" and I think Kyron overheard it. She wasn't afraid of letting Kyron speak to Desiree and was willing to let him go to her, so she is not the abuser. I've always found it suspicious that Kyron disappeared on the day he was to go to Desiree and Tony's. I think someone was afraid he would tell something they didn't want told.

Pretty insightful comments. Definitely, some things to consider.

Bebecat said:

"'I honestly don't think Kyron will ever be found. I am very sad to think that even if a trial takes places and Terri is convicted, that we won't know for sure if she in fact really did anything to him at all. I don't remember any circumstantial case without finding a body in the case of a child"

Robert Rivera of Pennsylvania is doing a life plus 27 year sentence for the murder of his 20-month-old daughter, Katelyn. Katelyn has been missing for ten or 11 years and her poor little body has never been found.

I would think it would be easier to prosecute for the murder of a child who hasn't been found rather than an adult who hasn't been found. After all, we know neither Kyron nor Katelyn would have been able to start new lives somewhere else.

True, a child could not start a new life, but there is also not the ceasing of activity on bank and phone records as w/adult, which is a big thing used in no-body cases...and even LE in this case has named a number of possibilities and none of them have been murder...
That is why I wonder what they would use to finally decide he is deceased, if not found...when even this month they are still saying the believe him to be alive...

My last post was my long-winded way of saying that, if Terri Horman had been seen leaving the school with Kyron and Kyron was never seen again, Terri Horman would have been under arrest already.

Terri was not the last person to see Kyron, several students saw him around 9 AM and I even remember reading one story, which is no longer online of a student who says he saw him around 10:30 AM in the basement. Maybe the story was pulled to protect the students, I don't know. I had thought that was strange that he was still in the school 30 minutes after Mrs. Porter says she marked him absent. Only Tanner spoke of seeing Kyron to the press, but the earlier reports mentioned 2 other students, 7th or 8th graders. One is Kessinger and I forget the name of the other one. IMO, just because LE and adults do not listen to kids, does not mean they are lying or don't know what they are talking about, and that what they had to say shouldn't be heard. They had no reason to lie about Kyron or the time they say that they saw him. If earlier reports had not been changed and the childrens story had been taken into consideration, then there is no way that anyone could have suspected Terri as being the person responsible for Kyron's disappearance.

I guess it bothers me that the children were ignored, because when I was a kid there was an abduction from a school (I think the name of it was Central, not sure) in Yuma, AZ in the late 60's, during a Halloween carnival / and cake walk. I had tryed to tell them about a man that I thought was acting odd and that he was no longer there. Several adults then said I didn't know what I was talking about and that they hadn't seen anyone there. The girl was later found murdered and as far as I know, to this day the case has never been solved. I don't remember the details and doubt that I could give the description of the man I saw now if I wanted to because it's been so many years ago. I don't know how to find the story, but if anyone can I'd appreciate it. I asked someone else if they would find it for me when I first heard of Kyron's case, but they said they didn't have an account anymore with that paper, but this person told me that it happened in 1967, I would have been 10 years old. I believe the paper that would have carried the story would have been "THE SUN", but I'm not sure. I was thinking it happened 1968 or 1969, but I was a kid so I could have the year wrong.

johnabelle wrote:
She wasn't afraid of letting Kyron speak to Desiree and was willing to let him go to her, so she is not the abuser. I've always found it suspicious that Kyron disappeared on the day he was to go to Desiree and Tony's. I think someone was afraid he would tell something they didn't want told.

==================================
I find it suspicious that a doctor's appointment (and what the doctor said to Terri when she scheduled the appointment) could be verified in minutes. Yet, in the email press release (Q&A format), Kaine answered the question by completely minimizing it and answered only that there was some confusion around the issue and it couldn't be confirmed. WTH?
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/horman_family_answers_question.html

It just seems wrong that if something does not disparage Terri, it is minimized or can't be discussed. But, if something of lesser or equal evidentiary value is disparaging to Terri, it's fine to leak it or directly release it - without confirmation.

I believe the confusion concerning the doctor's appointment was deliberate in order to discredit what Terri said about Kyron or anything else. I read that someone said Terri thought that seizures Kyron was having was because of sexual abuse and that the reason for the appt. was to have him checked. Kyron disappeared before it was known whether or not he was abused. If it is true even if Terri told someone about the abuse, doubtful they would believe her, especially if it was Kaine she suspected.

Talk more later, I have to go shopping now.

I don't believe anyone saw anyone leave with Kyron but since they keep saying they are building a case, they may go ahead and decide it is likely that he left with Terri and proceed from there...I mean, that is what they will have to say, if they press charges. They can't say much else. I don't understand how they will be able to proceed, personally, unless someone comes forward or Kyron is found in an area where Terri was KNOWN to be on that day. I am stymied...

Seriously, WE don't know if they searched the landfills, the boiler room, etc.....but they performed the largest search in the history of the state....do you think they didn't think of these things?

I find it very interesting that you accept certain "gossip" as fact, but reject all other information that doesn't support your position as "gossip". For example, you accept what Tom Jones said about Kyron and Kitty, and reject what he says about his cousin's complicity with Terri. You accept as fact that Terri's alibi email on June 5th is fact, but reject when LE says that she was last confirmed at the school at 8:45. You reject what Kaine's lawyer says in court, but accept what Harry Oakes says in his blog. And speaking of that - you are accepting the part where he said that Kyron said "my mother is dead", but reject the rest of that same post where he reported that many skyline parents had seen TMH be cruel to Kyron.

I think Maat is the only poster that is consistent in rejecting ALL rumor and innuendo....

I think we would know if they searched the landfills. It's a pretty big undertaking.

I don't accept what Harry Oakes says and I certainly don't believe TJ says. TJ's reasoning is absurd. A nail tech says DeDe is a closet lesbian, so that makes her guilty of murder? Ridiculous.

soulpatch,
Not sure who your last post is directed towards? I think we all discuss the gossip and innuendo in the case - as Maat said earlier, that mostly all that's out there about this case! I think very few here present it as fact. I don't accept or reject anything by Tom Jones, nor Harry Oakes - it's irrelevant to me because it's not substantiated and they are not part of the case. I don't think that because someone else said that they heard from somebody else that Kyron was saying or doing something that it is fact. Someone else might consider it true, but they may also know the sources or maybe they just want to believe it. It doesn't mean that everyone (except Maat) reading the post accepts it as fact. I don't see anyone who's following the case anywhere rejecting ALL rumor and innuendo (including you); it's typically discussed and evaluated as just that on this board. Sometimes rumors and innuendo hold some truth, other times not, we don't know until evidence is produced - pretty sure most of the posters here appreciate that fact. I appreciate everyone's posts - including your's.