George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Cherokee thank you for that. Interesting that the doctor says Adderall and Temazepam, GZ says Librax and Temazepan. Who knows if he was even taking any of his meds.

Twinkle wrote:

Freckles wrote:Question:
If Trayvon was found :
"Paramedics found Martin lying on his stomach, the can of iced tea, still cold, in his sweatshirt pocket. They flipped over his body and attempted CPR for six minutes."

AND was shot:
"Martin’s autopsy showed he was shot through the heart."

Who turned him over after he was shot so paramedics found Trayvon FACE down?

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/05/18/zimmerman-atty-dont-judge-by-piecemeal-evidence/

I think whoever wrote that article didn't get it quite right. From reading the many police reports, they clearly state that the police found Trayvon lying on his stomach when they arrived at the scene, and it was one of the police officers who turned Trayvon over. Two police officers then started administering CPR. Another police officer arrived and took over for one of them. The paramedics arrived after all of this had happened and took over.

If Trayvon was shot though the front, the chest, how did he come to be FACE down? Paramedics/LE turned him over.

IMO...if TM was standing he would have fallen forward to his knees then face down.
If he was kneeling on top of GZ, then he would have fallen forward after being shot and GZ would have had to wiggle out from under him and not get TM's blood all over him. Make sense?

ETA: I don't think the gun was powerful enough to knock him backwards off his feet...they rarely are. In my limited knowledge of guns.

Chickenbutt wrote:IMO...if TM was standing he would have fallen forward to his knees then face down.
If he was kneeling on top of GZ, then he would have fallen forward after being shot and GZ would have had to wiggle out from under him and not get TM's blood all over him. Make sense?

ETA: I don't think the gun was powerful enough to knock him backwards off his feet...they rarely are. In my limited knowledge of guns.

Given that they say "intermediate" range, I've wondered if Trayvon was not raising himself up off of GZ at the time GZ shot him - he would have been in motion and but still down enough to fall forward to the side of GZ and onto his stomach. Because I agree with you ChickenButt that it seems logical that Trayvon would have fallen forward on top of GZ if he were still sitting on GZ. Something isn't right to me as a lay person

CherokeeNative wrote:

Chickenbutt wrote:IMO...if TM was standing he would have fallen forward to his knees then face down.
If he was kneeling on top of GZ, then he would have fallen forward after being shot and GZ would have had to wiggle out from under him and not get TM's blood all over him. Make sense?

ETA: I don't think the gun was powerful enough to knock him backwards off his feet...they rarely are. In my limited knowledge of guns.

Given that they say "intermediate" range, I've wondered if Trayvon was not raising himself up off of GZ at the time GZ shot him - he would have been in motion and but still down enough to fall forward to the side of GZ and onto his stomach. Because I agree with you ChickenButt that it seems logical that Trayvon would have fallen forward on top of GZ if he were still sitting on GZ. Something isn't right to me as a lay person

Then, I would think, there would have been blood falling down on GZ. Perhaps, even Trayvon would have fallen forward onto GZ. I can't see this.

But didn't the autopsy say the shot was within 8" of Trayvon and the gun? That's still too close to fit my theory on that...or at least to tell whether Trayvon was backing off. I wonder if that is why the State has the gun expert on their list or if that is just to talk ballistics.

Freckles wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

Chickenbutt wrote:IMO...if TM was standing he would have fallen forward to his knees then face down.
If he was kneeling on top of GZ, then he would have fallen forward after being shot and GZ would have had to wiggle out from under him and not get TM's blood all over him. Make sense?

ETA: I don't think the gun was powerful enough to knock him backwards off his feet...they rarely are. In my limited knowledge of guns.

Given that they say "intermediate" range, I've wondered if Trayvon was not raising himself up off of GZ at the time GZ shot him - he would have been in motion and but still down enough to fall forward to the side of GZ and onto his stomach. Because I agree with you ChickenButt that it seems logical that Trayvon would have fallen forward on top of GZ if he were still sitting on GZ. Something isn't right to me as a lay person

Then, I would think, there would have been blood falling down on GZ. Perhaps, even Trayvon would have fallen forward onto GZ. I can't see this.

Yeah, but didn't KZ say up thread that 2.5 pints of blood had collected in Trayvon's chest cavity instead of bleeding out of his body?

Yes Cherokee, but he still would have bled some onto GZ

I would think....

DOH - I am laughing at myself here. Yeah, you are right, but it happened so fast, I was figuring that any that bled out was still on the inside of what two layers of clothes? I forgot, you are the nurse, and would know these things.

Even if only a few drops...or even spatter

One of Zimmermans ex co-workers made a statement that Zimmerman was a bully and he hated black people. She said that Zimmerman would call human resources over and over again for every little thing.

I truly believe that Zimmerman has some big issues that should have been addressed by his parents while he was young enough to do something about.

Then, the guy is on medication and no drug testing was done on him (the shooter) ?....This is unbelievable.....

I am going to call you, "Carrie Nation" !

Ok. IF that amount of blood was collected IN the body cavity, wouldn't he have to be on his back for it to collect? I mean, face down, would it not have leaked out?

I don't mean to be a pain in the
I am just trying to visual how this one part happened.
GZ shoots him from the front.
The PD/medics flip him right side up.
This means, at some point after being shot, TM was face down.
Did TM fall face down?
Did GZ turn him face down?

(Early on, IIRC, one of the witnesses stated after she heard the shot, she looked out and saw one person sitting/straddling a second person and it appeared he was trying to give him CPR or was "pounding" on the chest. At this point, was TM face up or face down?)

Freckles, you have me on the floor asking hubby if all these positions make sense...lol....starting to give him ideas. Anyway, You make some very good points, but I can't imagine what reason GZ would have to turn him face down.

Okay Ladies - from before the document dump, we had heard one of the witnesses was saying that after Trayvon was shot that GZ then was straddling Trayvon with his hand on Trayvon's back - I guessed that the reason for that was GZ was looking for a weapon of some sort to bolster his self-defense theory. I still believe that. So we don't know if GZ moved Trayvon or what but when the LE arrived he was on his stomach, hands under him.

And who is Carrie Nation? LOL

Carrie Nation was a sufferagette who campaigned against alcohol.....had a hachet and chopped up all the saloons.

CherokeeNative wrote:Okay Ladies - from before the document dump, we had heard one of the witnesses was saying that after Trayvon was shot that GZ then was straddling Trayvon with his hand on Trayvon's back - I guessed that the reason for that was GZ was looking for a weapon of some sort to bolster his self-defense theory. I still believe that. So we don't know if GZ moved Trayvon or what but when the LE arrived he was on his stomach, hands under him.

Then I have to believe that TM was standing when he got shot.

And another thing to think on....the bullet path was horizontal. If TM was on top of GZ and the shot was fired, wthe path be horizontal or would it have a slightly upward path?

Chickenbutt wrote:And another thing to think on....the bullet path was horizontal. If TM was on top of GZ and the shot was fired, wthe path be horizontal or would it have a slightly upward path?

The prosecution has to have something that we don't have - be it an expert saying the trajectory is different than what GZ says happened or something - because from reading the witnesses' testimony, the only thing that I see them basing their case on is someone saw two people chasing each other and someone crying help - both of which are weak IMO...there has to be more evidence than what we have been given. I figure they have a video showing Trayvon never circled the vehicle like GZ said - Lie #1. But what else do they have?

I agree Cherokee. There is a lot we don't know and probably won't until trial. Unless we get all the discovery like we did in CA's case.

CherokeeNative wrote:

Freckles wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

Chickenbutt wrote:IMO...if TM was standing he would have fallen forward to his knees then face down.
If he was kneeling on top of GZ, then he would have fallen forward after being shot and GZ would have had to wiggle out from under him and not get TM's blood all over him. Make sense?

ETA: I don't think the gun was powerful enough to knock him backwards off his feet...they rarely are. In my limited knowledge of guns.

Given that they say "intermediate" range, I've wondered if Trayvon was not raising himself up off of GZ at the time GZ shot him - he would have been in motion and but still down enough to fall forward to the side of GZ and onto his stomach. Because I agree with you ChickenButt that it seems logical that Trayvon would have fallen forward on top of GZ if he were still sitting on GZ. Something isn't right to me as a lay person

Then, I would think, there would have been blood falling down on GZ. Perhaps, even Trayvon would have fallen forward onto GZ. I can't see this.

Yeah, but didn't KZ say up thread that 2.5 pints of blood had collected in Trayvon's chest cavity instead of bleeding out of his body?

Not 2.5 pints. 2300cc is about 2.5 LITERS.

Or, roughly more than half a gallon. Just under half of his total blood volume was in his chest cavity. He was about 160 pounds = 73kg. At 70cc per kg of body weight he had approximately 5091cc total blood volume....or rounded up to about 6 liters total blood volume.

So, about half his total blood volume was in his chest.

Very little bled out the 3/8" hole in his chest.

KZ, but do you think SOME blood bled from his chest. If not only a drop or two that should have landed on GZ if he was under TM?

Chickenbutt wrote:Freckles, you have me on the floor asking hubby if all these positions make sense...lol....starting to give him ideas. Anyway, You make some very good points, but I can't imagine what reason GZ would have to turn him face down.

JMO -- if you have seen reality cops shows they turn them over to make sure they don't attack and to put handcuffs on. Just wondering if GZ turned him over to "secure the scene"

Ladytwee, you could be exactly right. We know GZ was a wanna-be cop

Gotta go for awhile.....see ya all later.

Chickenbutt wrote:KZ, but do you think SOME blood bled from his chest. If not only a drop or two that should have landed on GZ if he was under TM?

Not necessarily. I've seen very dry GSW's (meaning the entry wound hole is dry) on arrival to ER. Spatter is very unlikely from all I've read about low velocity (less than 1000 feet/ sec) handguns. Spatter is something all the movies and TV shows dramatize, but a single GSW from a small caliber handgun is unlikely to have spatter.

If TM were atop GZ, and GZ pushed or rolled him off right away to a prone position (TM being the prone one), I could see perhaps some gravity dependent leakage from that position. (Small amt.)

However, I read in the discovery somewhere that thre LEO who rolled him over and began CPR heard "bubbling". He lifted whatever shirt layers TM was wearing to expose the GSW. Requested plastic and vaseline from bystanders to seal up the hole (sucking chest wound).

I just think if there was any external blood at all, it would be extremely minimal. The path of least resistance for the blood loss was into the somewhat vast pleural cavity-- not out the 3/8" hole. The pleural cavity can hold way more than 2300cc, so it wasn't "full". (No hole in the diaphragm, so it all stayed in the chest.)

IMO, the 2300cc in the chest occurred in the first seconds to maybe a minute or so. It was all venous return to the heart that filled the chest, and once forward propulsion stopped, the blood in the rest of the body was unable to be circulated. Stayed in the extremities and organs, muscles, etc.

I think it is entirely possible GZ did not have any of TM's blood on him, even if he was atop GZ when shot. But I could be wrong!

CherokeeNative wrote:And who is Carrie Nation? LOL

You!
My fingers don't like typing all the letters in CherokeeNative! I keep mistyping.
Carrie Nation was a strong, outgoing woman. IIRC, she helped to get the vote for women.

Chickenbutt wrote:And another thing to think on....the bullet path was horizontal. If TM was on top of GZ and the shot was fired, wthe path be horizontal or would it have a slightly upward path?

Could go horizontal if he held the gun perpendicular to the body. (This is when I would love to have Val!)

K Z

According to the evidence collected (see page 17 where I typed from the evidence report) there were swabs used to collect what was believed to be blood. Perhaps this will help us regarding a bleed out or blood source. I am surprise the chest cavity showed such a small entry hole. (I may be wrong but I had first read GZ had fired a hollow point. Usually, those don't travel through a person but cause tremendous damage within a person.)

(Many years ago, a co-worker's husband had a massive heart attack. When he was complaining of a shoulder hurting, she decided to drop this 40 yr old off at hospital on the way to work. In the hospital parking lot, the vein ? at the base of the heart let go. From what I was told, it was very bad visually. He died almost instantly. We were stunned as he had a physical a few months earlier and clean bill of health. Still, he had made up a will.)

Freckles wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:And who is Carrie Nation? LOL

You!
My fingers don't like typing all the letters in CherokeeNative! I keep mistyping.
Carrie Nation was a strong, outgoing woman. IIRC, she helped to get the vote for women.

You are too funny You can shorten it to CN too if you like.

IMO, just reading the doc dump, George shot Trayvon while he was lying on the ground.

Page 41- "Upon investigating, she observed a male [u]standing over another individual [\u]who was lying on the ground. She states the individual standing over the other individual appeared to be holding the person on the ground by pressing on his back." (With a drawn gun perhaps?) "Her friend, who was assisting with translation, was adamant that there was no physical fighting at the time when the gun shot rang out."

Page 43- The 13 year old boy who was out walking his dog said he observed "someone laying on the ground that looked like they couldn't get up and was yelling for help". When pressed by police he said that the guy yelling was wearing red. The next day he retracted that saying that it was dark and he couldn't see any colors and the police had pushed him into IDing the clothing as red.

Also on Page 43, another neighbor sees "an individual lying on the ground, apparently calling for help. She stated she observed a neighbor, whom she could not identify, asking the person if he was OK and if the person on the ground wanted him to call 911." This witness went back into the house, locked the sliders and went to an upstairs bathroom window when she heard a gunshot.

There are three witnesses that see a man lying on the ground screaming for help. Two of the three witnesses do not see a second person! I believe George drew his weapon and had it trained on Trayvon while he was lying on the ground. That it when you hear the screaming on the 911 call. That is what these witnesses see. The initial physical altercation is over and George has taken his gun out from a standing position over Trayvon.

Why did George step forward and pull the trigger? Did Trayvon try to get up again to run? Did George fear that he would be in deep doo doo and decided to take this punk out so it would be just his story? The one witness said there was no physical fighting when the gun shot rang out.

Well, as the saying goes, Dead men tell no tales.
So if dead men tell no tales, it must be left to the living to tell the tales, IMO.

There is that possibility for motive.
I personally don't need motive as much as evidence.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57437482/despite-evidence-no-answers-in-martin-shooting/
Despite evidence, no answers in Martin shooting

--snipped--

Some of the case's most important evidence has yet to be made public, including Zimmerman's three interviews with police, and his cell phone records. CBS News learned that includes texts Zimmerman sent after the shooting. Some of them disparage leaders of "Justice for Trayvon" rallies with language described as offensive.

Mark O'Mara, Zimmerman's lawyer, has yet to get copies of all those texts.

"So you still will be looking for them?" Strassman asked O'Mara.

"Absolutely."
"And if that is there?"

"We'll deal with it," said O'Mara. "I don't know the context of it. I don't know what is was in response to. I am sure that as every other part of this case, there will be explanations on both sides. Let's wait and see what we have."

O'Mara expects to get the rest of the prosecution's case in pieces over the next few weeks.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/George-Zimmerman-s-attorney-says-more-evidence-to-come/-/1637132/13486818/-/x1vridz/-/index.html
George Zimmerman's attorney says more evidence to come
Mark O'Mara wants client's statements kept out of public eye for now

--video@link--

"There's going to be some other forensic evidence that was worked up, some other expert witness statements, some testing that was done that will get in discovery," said Mark O'Mara.

The most crucial evidence not being released, though, are statements his client George Zimmerman made to police.

They are exempt from disclosure at this point because they are considered confessions.

"There's a chance I may have a right to suppress some of those," O'Mara said.

He said the 183 pages of documents, hours of witness interviews, crime scene photographs, and surveillance videos released Thursday constitute less than half the evidence amassed by prosecutors who charged Zimmerman with second-degree murder.

"I have less than half and you have less than I do," O'Mara said.

O'Mara would not comment specifically on any of the evidence, which included statements from acquaintances of Zimmerman who said he showed signs of racism.

--more@link--

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-witness-believes-intended-kid-die/story?id=16380864#.T7bvAOvOX2Y
Trayvon Martin Witness Believes 'He Intended for This Kid to Die'

--video@link--

A man listed as witness 13 was one of the first people to approach Zimmerman minutes after the shooting. He saw him bleeding from the back of the head and nose. Zimmerman asked the unidentified man to call his wife for him.

"Let her know what's happening, been involved in a shooting and will be held for questioning," the witness told the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. "He was more like, talking like he was having a hard time, looked like he just got his butt whipped ... not like he was in shock, not like, 'I can't believe I just shot someone,' but like, 'Just tell my wife I just shot someone,' like it was nothing."
~~~~~~~~

Police said they believe Martin noticed he was being watched and "was in fact running generally in the direction of where he was staying as a guest of the neighborhood."

Multiple witnesses and injuries sustained corroborate Zimmerman's account that he was involved in a serious altercation with Martin, one that police say could have been avoided if he did not leave his car as directed by the 911dispatcher. The investigator said the tragedy was avoidable.

Witness 3 said the timing was terrible.

"I saw the police arrive. And they were literally like 5 seconds too late -- like right after the gun went off. Like, they were literally that, that, that short a distance late," the witness said.

--more@link--

Thanks, ellejay. Curious as to this witness. Hope he is on the stand.

The Zoloft defense. It is coming now. Using drugs as a plausible defense.

"Man accused of rape can present 'Zoloft defense,' judge rules"

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/05/rape-trial-zoloft-defense.html

ellejay wrote:
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/George-Zimmerman-s-attorney-says-more-evidence-to-come/-/1637132/13486818/-/x1vridz/-/index.html
George Zimmerman's attorney says more evidence to come
Mark O'Mara wants client's statements kept out of public eye for now

--video@link--

"There's going to be some other forensic evidence that was worked up, some other expert witness statements, some testing that was done that will get in discovery," said Mark O'Mara.

The most crucial evidence not being released, though, are statements his client George Zimmerman made to police.

They are exempt from disclosure at this point because they are considered confessions.

"There's a chance I may have a right to suppress some of those," O'Mara said.

He said the 183 pages of documents, hours of witness interviews, crime scene photographs, and surveillance videos released Thursday constitute less than half the evidence amassed by prosecutors who charged Zimmerman with second-degree murder.

"I have less than half and you have less than I do," O'Mara said.

O'Mara would not comment specifically on any of the evidence, which included statements from acquaintances of Zimmerman who said he showed signs of racism.

--more@link--

BBM

I am glad to hear this. Because I was thinking that if this was all the State has, they were going to have an up hill battle to prove Murder2 or even manslaughter. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say they have a video from the clubhouse showing that Trayvon did not circle the GZ's vehicle as GZ claims. That's Lie #1 We have the witness who heard a commotion outside, and then sees two individuals running, one chasing the other about 10' to 12' apart towards the "T" away from Brandy's townhome. According to what we've heard from the GZ family and Taffe, Trayvon snuck up on him and sucker punched him from behind. Even if this were true, the moment that Trayvon started to run and GZ gave chase, he is again the aggressor. But nevertheless, it is a critical ommission on the part of GZ. So, Lie #2. We have one witness who states that it was the "young boy" who was yelling for help. We have the two women roommates who believe it was Trayvon who was crying for help, but their stories have changed and will be questionable by the jury. John is adamant that it was GZ who was yelling for help.

I want to say that Murder2 is a good call, IF you take the entire sequence of events into consideration - BUT if the jury is going to be required to look at each sequence of events separately and decide who was the "aggressor" in the last event, I was really worried about the State's case if this was all the evidence the had. For purposes of self-defense, we need to do some research and figure out how the law will require the jury to look at the case - as a whole, or in sequences as described above. I'll try to do that sometime this weekend if nobody else knows or has time.

The family clinic Doctor who saw Zimmerman the day after the shooting told Zimmerman to follow up with a visit to an ENT Doctor (ear, nose, and throat specialist) to determine the extent of the injury to his nose but Zimmerman didn't follow up.

I thought this was interesting - although it can't be used at trial:

On 2/28/12 Investigator Trekell Perkins received a telephone call from an unidentified female. This female who refused to provide her name, call back number, or any other type of contact information, disclosed to Inv. Perkins that George Zimmerman has racist ideologies, and that he is fully capable of instigating a confrontation that could have escalated to the point of Zimmerman having to use deadly force. Inv. Perkins was able to record a portion of his conversation with this anonymous female and said recording was placed on a compact disc and submitted as evidence. No other information has been obtained to corroborate the anonymous female's information and her identity has not been established.

I suspect that there are people within the development that are afraid to come forward and tell about the "real" George because of people like Taffe and all of the publicity.

CherokeeNative wrote:

ellejay wrote:
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/George-Zimmerman-s-attorney-says-more-evidence-to-come/-/1637132/13486818/-/x1vridz/-/index.html
George Zimmerman's attorney says more evidence to come
Mark O'Mara wants client's statements kept out of public eye for now

--video@link--

"There's going to be some other forensic evidence that was worked up, some other expert witness statements, some testing that was done that will get in discovery," said Mark O'Mara.

The most crucial evidence not being released, though, are statements his client George Zimmerman made to police.

They are exempt from disclosure at this point because they are considered confessions.

"There's a chance I may have a right to suppress some of those," O'Mara said.

He said the 183 pages of documents, hours of witness interviews, crime scene photographs, and surveillance videos released Thursday constitute less than half the evidence amassed by prosecutors who charged Zimmerman with second-degree murder.

"I have less than half and you have less than I do," O'Mara said.

O'Mara would not comment specifically on any of the evidence, which included statements from acquaintances of Zimmerman who said he showed signs of racism.

--more@link--

BBM

I am glad to hear this. Because I was thinking that if this was all the State has, they were going to have an up hill battle to prove Murder2 or even manslaughter. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say they have a video from the clubhouse showing that Trayvon did not circle the GZ's vehicle as GZ claims. That's Lie #1 We have the witness who heard a commotion outside, and then sees two individuals running, one chasing the other about 10' to 12' apart towards the "T" away from Brandy's townhome. According to what we've heard from the GZ family and Taffe, Trayvon snuck up on him and sucker punched him from behind. Even if this were true, the moment that Trayvon started to run and GZ gave chase, he is again the aggressor. But nevertheless, it is a critical ommission on the part of GZ. So, Lie #2. We have one witness who states that it was the "young boy" who was yelling for help. We have the two women roommates who believe it was Trayvon who was crying for help, but their stories have changed and will be questionable by the jury. John is adamant that it was GZ who was yelling for help.

I want to say that Murder2 is a good call, IF you take the entire sequence of events into consideration - BUT if the jury is going to be required to look at each sequence of events separately and decide who was the "aggressor" in the last event, I was really worried about the State's case if this was all the evidence the had. For purposes of self-defense, we need to do some research and figure out how the law will require the jury to look at the case - as a whole, or in sequences as described above. I'll try to do that sometime this weekend if nobody else knows or has time.

And here is another video where Mary Cutcher talks about the Sanford Police:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=tONgo45dtoA

Chickenbutt wrote:And another thing to think on....the bullet path was horizontal. If TM was on top of GZ and the shot was fired, wthe path be horizontal or would it have a slightly upward path?

--the bullet path wasn't horizontal.
--from the ME report:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Zimmerman_Discovery.pdf
--page 125

Penetrating Gunshot Wound of the Chest
Direction of projectile: Directly, front to back.

This is what I meant by saying their stories have changed according to LE" - so it will be source of contention at the trial and O'Mara will try to enhance that to the jury - which will make the jury have to decide whether to give credence to their statements or not. I should have inserted "according to LE" in my comment above. Thanks for pointing that out.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:The family clinic Doctor who saw Zimmerman the day after the shooting told Zimmerman to follow up with a visit to an ENT Doctor (ear, nose, and throat specialist) to determine the extent of the injury to his nose but Zimmerman didn't follow up.

--that sounds about par for the course for george, when told to do something he does whatever the heck he feels like anyway.

--i wonder if he also didn't bother to see the pyschologist ?

--if he hadn't needed a doctor's clearance for work, would he have bothered to see his doctor at all?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7O5Znpo9Xa

The morning after the shooting, on Feb. 27, Zimmerman sought treatment at the offices of a general physician at a family practice near Sanford, Fla. The doctor notes Zimmerman sought an appointment to get legal clearance to return to work.

But the report also shows Zimmerman declined hospitalization the night of the shooting, and then declined the advice of his doctor to make a follow-up appointment with an ear nose and throat doctor.

In addition to his physical injuries, Zimmerman complained of stress and "occasional nausea when thinking about the violence." But he was not diagnosed with a concussion. The doctor noted that it was "imperative" that Zimmerman "be seen with [sic] his psychologist for evaluation."

ellejay wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:The family clinic Doctor who saw Zimmerman the day after the shooting told Zimmerman to follow up with a visit to an ENT Doctor (ear, nose, and throat specialist) to determine the extent of the injury to his nose but Zimmerman didn't follow up.

--that sounds about par for the course for george, when told to do something he does whatever the heck he feels like anyway.

--i wonder if he also didn't bother to see the pyschologist ?

--if he hadn't needed a doctor's clearance for work, would he have bothered to see his doctor at all?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7O5Znpo9Xa

The morning after the shooting, on Feb. 27, Zimmerman sought treatment at the offices of a general physician at a family practice near Sanford, Fla. The doctor notes Zimmerman sought an appointment to get legal clearance to return to work.

But the report also shows Zimmerman declined hospitalization the night of the shooting, and then declined the advice of his doctor to make a follow-up appointment with an ear nose and throat doctor.

In addition to his physical injuries, Zimmerman complained of stress and "occasional nausea when thinking about the violence." But he was not diagnosed with a concussion. The doctor noted that it was "imperative" that Zimmerman "be seen with [sic] his psychologist for evaluation."

ITA Ellejay. George does as he wants, when he wants. I suspect GZ is saying he has occasional nausea to suggest that he suffered a concussion to play up his injuries. The doctor probably suggested he see a psychologist for evaluation thinking George may experience PTSD as a result of the shooting - I would like to think that the reason was because the doctor picked up on some mental issues that George has - like unreasonable paranoia, etc. LOL

I sure hope we get to see the text messages that GZ sent on his phone following the shooting. Those are going to be very telling as to his state of mind. I also wish we could see the reenactment that he did of the incident. I am curious to see if it includes the "chase" that a witness saw.

ellejay wrote:

Chickenbutt wrote:And another thing to think on....the bullet path was horizontal. If TM was on top of GZ and the shot was fired, wthe path be horizontal or would it have a slightly upward path?

--the bullet path wasn't horizontal.
--from the ME report:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Zimmerman_Discovery.pdf
--page 125

Penetrating Gunshot Wound of the Chest
Direction of projectile: Directly, front to back.

I believe directly from front to back means horizontal.

Horizontal plane, one passing longitudinally through the middle of the body from front to back......

"Martin's autopsy showed he was shot through the heart. Gunpowder burns around his chest wound, called "stippling," suggest Zimmerman shot him no more than 18 inches away. The gun shot's trajectory was horizontal."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57436911/zimmerman-atty-dont-judge-by-piecemeal-evidence/

"Diagrams also note Martin was hurt in the fight: blood on his head, a bruise around his eye, scarring on both hands.

Page 131

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Zimmerman_Discovery.pdf

When asked by Charlie Rose how yesterday's release of information - some possibly supportive of his client, some possibly not - might affect his case, O'Mara said, "It's sort of important that we all - not only my team but everybody - wait until all the evidence is out.

"I'd rather not comment on partial evidence. Let's deal with it all once we have it, and deal with it in the courtroom," he said.

When asked if he agreed with a police report's statement that the shooting was avoidable, had Zimmerman followed instructions to not pursue Martin - O'Mara replied, "They're entitled to their opinion."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57436911/zimmerman-atty-dont-judge-by-piecemeal-evidence/

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/video-showing-teen-encouraging-others-fight-was-no/nN854/
Video showing teen encouraging others to fight was not Trayvon Martin, brother says

--snipped--

One of Zimmerman's former co-workers called him a bully, so much that the co-worker said employees threw a party when Zimmerman was fired for bogging down the human resources hotline with too many complaints about other employees and management.

Zimmerman told police that at some point he stopped following Martin and started walking back to his car. But even if that's not what happened, even if Zimmerman started a fight with Martin and it continued, Sheaffer said, Zimmerman could still argue under the stand your ground law that he eventually became the victim and was justified in using deadly force to defend himself.

“The defense will argue that those injuries (to Zimmerman), at some point, turned George Zimmerman from the aggressor to the victim in this case,” said Sheaffer.

Sheaffer said the big reason the stand your ground law is so controversial is that people can start fights, get in over their heads, use deadly force and then try to use the law to justify it.

Some interesting tidbits regarding the LE interview with Trayvon's "girlfriend":

In an interview with the girl thought to be Trayvon Martin's girlfriend, she explained that she had known Trayvon since kindergarten but denied they were in a relationship. She said that she had talked to him before he left to go to a nearby 7-Eleven and was talking to him when it started to rain.

When Trayvon returned to the complex where he was visiting his father, he took shelter under a covered mail shed, according to the girl. A few minutes later, Trayvon told her a man was "watching him" and following him. She said that he had put his hoodie on, because it was still raining.

"I know he was scared," she said, explaining how his voice was getting kind of low and that he was breathing heavily.

"He told me the guy is getting close to him. The next I heard is, 'Why you following me for?' Then, I heard a man say, 'What are you doing around here?," she recounted.

She said she called Trayvon's name but there was no response. She described what she thought was an altercation and could hear Trayvon yelling, "Get off! Get off!" She said then the phone went dead.

She described Trayvon as "funny" and "a momma's boy," and "a baby," who loved his family.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/18523624/documents-releases-in-trayvon-martin-shooting

This confirms what I had seen speculated about elsewhere: the girl was not really Trayvon's girlfriend. So I am still left to wonder, especially in light of the fact that she had known Trayvon since kindergarten, why she would hesitate to contact his parents, law enforcement, her school counselor, or someone to inform them of what she knew.

Some things that seem a bit odd to me about her account:

1) She says Trayvon told her he was putting his hood up. That seems a bit weird to me; why mention that?

2) She describes Trayvon running away from the strange creepy guy who was following him, then slowing to a walk after he lost him. At some point he says he doesn't need to run because he is close to his dad's house; this is before he spots GZ again. She says Trayvon sounded scared, yet tells her he isn't going to run because he is tired. After he sees GZ again, she describes Trayvon saying the man is getting closer and closer, yet still Trayvon won't run because he is...tired? Really? He was a young, healthy teenager; you wouldn't think he would be too tired to run when allegedly in fear of a mysterious stalker. I have a hard time imagining that the older, heavier, less fit GZ could run fast enough to catch up with TM, while TM was too tired to run away from him.

3) She describes hearing "grass". How does one hear grass over the phone?

I also find it interesting, for those who think GZ ran around one row of townhouses and surprised TM coming from the other direction, that she continually describes GZ as following TM and getting closer; there is no mention that when GZ reappears, he is in front of TM, causing TM to run in the other direction.