Witness #9: Statements & Discussion -- George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case

CherokeeNative wrote:

MollyK wrote:If that's the way the law was written, then it needs to be modified. Before an hour ago, I never would have believed that anything could make me feel sympathetic to GZ, but this has done it. I still believe that he is a murderer, but everyone deserves a fair trial. He can't get one now.

This is working against what many of us want, Justice for Trayvon.

While I agree that this is irrelevant to the case in chief - neither the State nor the Judge could prevent it from being disclosed. BUT, from a NON-LEGAL standpoint, I do not in any way feel sorry or sympathetic for GZ - not only is he a murderer in my eyes, he is now an accused child molester. I don't feel sorry at all. Karma is what it is called. I hope if there isn't a statute of limitations on this, and Witness #9 will testify, that the State brings a new charge against GZ. He should not be allowed to go through life breaking laws, and laws of deciency, and then expect for them to be kept hush-hush. I truly believe he has gotten what he has coming to him - whether or not it is relevant to the case or not.

CN

You are not incorrect, however
The State can throw anything out there and call it "discovery", which does not mean evidence.

It doesn't float that they just didn't want it released.

Realistically, they had to have clearly anticipated a judge redacting address and name but releasing the remaining content.

I would think any FL attorney would.

Don't I remember that the judge held back discovery evidence in the Anthony case, which was in Florida and under the same Florida Sunshine Law?

I have to add one more thing - For those who feel this is counter-productive to getting justice for Trayvon, look at it this way. There is a chance that GZ could walk on this case - not because he is innocent, but because of the laws of admissibility, because of jury stacking. We are privy to many things that will not be allowed to be presented to the Jury...even though we know that if the Jury doesn't see some things, they may not come to the same conclusion we have. We know things don't add up, we know that GZ has lied about what truly occurred. We suspect that he fudged with the crime scene. So, IMO, if nothing else, if GZ is allowed to walk on a technicality, jury stacking, all of the things that prevent Lady Justice from rendering true justice, then at least, if nothing else, this SOB's life is ruined. That is some measure of justice in my opinion.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/100217807/Motion-to-Stay
--defense Motion to Stay

Tamta wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

While I agree that this is irrelevant to the case in chief - neither the State nor the Judge could prevent it from being disclosed. BUT, from a NON-LEGAL standpoint, I do not in any way feel sorry or sympathetic for GZ - not only is he a murderer in my eyes, he is now an accused child molester. I don't feel sorry at all. Karma is what it is called. I hope if there isn't a statute of limitations on this, and Witness #9 will testify, that the State brings a new charge against GZ. He should not be allowed to go through life breaking laws, and laws of deciency, and then expect for them to be kept hush-hush. I truly believe he has gotten what he has coming to him - whether or not it is relevant to the case or not.

CN

You are not incorrect, however
The State can throw anything out there and call it "discovery", which does not mean evidence.

It doesn't float that they just didn't want it released.

Realistically, they had to have clearly anticipated a judge redacting address and name but releasing the remaining content.

I would think any FL attorney would.

Ahhh, but Tamta, you forget - this isn't the State that made this up. This is a witness who came forward and gave a statement. The laws of discovery in criminal cases, and then the Sunshine Laws prevail over witness statements. The only way the State could have prevented this was to have refused to listen to this woman - now, what would you be saying if she came public and announced that she was trying to give a statement but the State wouldn't listen to her? They are following the law and nothing more. The truth is, GZ shouldn't have been molesting people and he wouldn't have had to worry about this coming out. Put blame where it belongs.

If all discovery "must be" released - where are the official phone logs and the full toxicology report?

Daralene Jones‏@DaraleneJones
Talking to @WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer. Says ‪#Witness9‬'s molestation allegations likely won't come nto play in ‪#GeorgeZimmerman‬ trial

Frances Robles‏@RoblesHerald
Crump tells me witness 9 will be key as a rebuttal witness like in Sandusky trial to show he has a "history of violence and manipulation"

Puzzler wrote:If all discovery "must be" released - where are the official phone logs and the full toxicology report?

Appears that they are exchanging discovery in parts and I would assume that either we have received all of what they have or they have been ruled undiscloseable or they will be forthcoming. I think I recall that Judge Lester ruled that the cell phone records did not have to be made public - obviously, there was an exemption that those records fell under - there is an order, and I am sure it states that exemption. You also have to understand that you will not be receiving everything that the State or the defense has - some of this stuff will fall under the attorney work product privilege.

Even with the sunshine laws, can't the judge rule to withhold some things? I'm trying to think back to the Anthony case & what we did not see.
This apparent molestation happened in Virginia, I suppose, because that is where George is from & lived until his early twenties, I believe.

Daralene Jones‏@DaraleneJones

‪#Witness9‬ "My parents found out and they confronted ‪#GeorgeZimmerman‬ and his parents about what happened."


4mDaralene Jones‏@DaraleneJones

We are still waiting to find out if ‪#GeorgeZimmerman‬ will get a new judge, after filing motion to have judge disqualified

5mDaralene Jones‏@DaraleneJones

In fact...initially he denied that he knew ‪#GeorgeZimmerman‬

6mDaralene Jones‏@DaraleneJones

I interviewed ‪#Witness9‬'s father and we aired the story a few months ago. He wasn't happy that we showed up at his office ‪#GeorgeZimmerman‬

alabama52 wrote:Even with the sunshine laws, can't the judge rule to withhold some things? I'm trying to think back to the Anthony case & what we did not see.
This apparent molestation happened in Virginia, I suppose, because that is where George is from & lived until his early twenties, I believe.

Judge Strickland withheld the tape KC being in jail, watching on tv that Caylee's body was found.

Daralene Jones‏@DaraleneJones

‪#GeorgeZimmerman‬'s attorney will release a statement very soon w/reaction about ‪#Witness9‬ & jail calls being released

alabama52 wrote:Even with the sunshine laws, can't the judge rule to withhold some things? I'm trying to think back to the Anthony case & what we did not see.
This apparent molestation happened in Virginia, I suppose, because that is where George is from & lived until his early twenties, I believe.

It depends on what the evidence is and whether it falls under "discovery" under the criminal rules and then whether there is an exemption allowing it to be withheld under the Sunshine Laws. It is hard to compare evidence in the CA case next to the evidence in this case since the evidence is different, the attorneys may have relied upon different objections which would result in different rulings, a whole myriad of things. I am in total agreement that this will not be relevant in the case in chief...but as mentioned by Ellejay's comment above...it may be admissible in another phase of the case. We will have to wait and see...we do not even know what the State's theory of their case in chief is...did GZ chase Trayvon down and shoot him or does the State agree that GZ was defending himself but crossed the line by doing something that changed it from self-defense to murder?

emberl wrote:

alabama52 wrote:Even with the sunshine laws, can't the judge rule to withhold some things? I'm trying to think back to the Anthony case & what we did not see.
This apparent molestation happened in Virginia, I suppose, because that is where George is from & lived until his early twenties, I believe.

Judge Strickland withheld the tape KC being in jail, watching on tv that Caylee's body was found.

Great memory Emberl. So yeah, this is totally different - Casey's reaction to seeing her child had been found. As I recall, now that Emberl has refreshed my memory, the state felt that it went towards showing that CA knew where the child had been all along, and the defense disagreed - but it was withheld under a claim of medical privacy because she was in the medical bay if I remember right....or was it because she did not have an attorney present - one of those? - either way, it had to fall under one of the Sunshine Law exemptions.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/George-Zimmerman-jail-calls-released/-/1637132/15528110/-/d970om/-/index.html
Witness 9: George Zimmerman molested me

--witness #9 interview @ link. 26:48

Via axiomamnesia here are url's of W9 part 1 & part 2 audio. This way will require you to launch in your own audio player versus directly from their W9 webpage.

http://www.axiomamnesia.com/Audio/Trayvon-Zimmerman-Witness-Interviews/Trayvon_Martin_George_Zimmerman_Audio_ZIMMERMAN_INT_W9_1.mp3

http://www.axiomamnesia.com/Audio/Trayvon-Zimmerman-Witness-Interviews/Trayvon_Martin_George_Zimmerman_Audio_ZIMMERMAN_INT2_WIT9_R2.mp3

I believe that it was unfair to GZ to release this statement. It would be one thing if W9 brought sexual abuse charges against him. If that had happened, he would have had the right to an attorney who would cross-examine W9. Now he has been accused, and convicted in the court of public opinion, of sexual abuse without the opportunity for a trial. I also believe that, given that this behavior started when GZ was 8 years old, he was molested himself as a very young child.

In any case, this is a distraction from the murder case. From what we can tell, the state has him dead to rights on that. Now who knows what will happen?

Frances Robles:

The Herald attorneys argued that public record law is clear on this. "irrelevant" material is not exempt

Witt 9 ...Afraid of GZ entire life..GZ shoots a stranger dead..Witt 9 no longer afraid of GZ..?

Part one around 12.40

I wanted it to just stop. I didn't want to ever have to tell anyone cuz I didn't want them (?) to be broken up. I didn't want it to be said. And Georgie always made himself look so good. He just sucked up to my dad & he was like the son he never had & he always was just very charming & personable with everybody in the family & just always would laugh & entertain everybody. But he was different behind closed doors with me.

MollyK wrote:I believe that it was unfair to GZ to release this statement. It would be one thing if W9 brought sexual abuse charges against him. If that had happened, he would have had the right to an attorney who would cross-examine W9. Now he has been accused, and convicted in the court of public opinion, of sexual abuse without the opportunity for a trial. I also believe that, given that this behavior started when GZ was 8 years old, he was molested himself as a very young child.

In any case, this is a distraction from the murder case. From what we can tell, the state has him dead to rights on that. Now who knows what will happen?

Well back in my day, we used to call it playing 'doctor', but it was consensual exploring by both parties, not forceful molesting by one. So that doesn't necessarily mean Z had been molested too. There is a natural curiosity in kids to check out body parts & how they feel, all that kind of stuff.

If we are going to be angry at anyone for the release of this information, it should be directed towards the media - because they are the ones who insisted on its release. We have to admit that we were all eager to see what Witness #9 had to say about GZ. For this reason, the media was in search of "breaking news" on behalf of their consumers. If any of us are opposed to this outcome and are residents of the State of Florida, they need to rally together to have the Sunshine Laws changed.

serenaz1 wrote:

MollyK wrote:I believe that it was unfair to GZ to release this statement. It would be one thing if W9 brought sexual abuse charges against him. If that had happened, he would have had the right to an attorney who would cross-examine W9. Now he has been accused, and convicted in the court of public opinion, of sexual abuse without the opportunity for a trial. I also believe that, given that this behavior started when GZ was 8 years old, he was molested himself as a very young child.

In any case, this is a distraction from the murder case. From what we can tell, the state has him dead to rights on that. Now who knows what will happen?

Well back in my day, we used to call it playing 'doctor', but it was consensual exploring by both parties, not forceful molesting by one. So that doesn't necessarily mean Z had been molested too. There is a natural curiosity in kids to check out body parts & how they feel, all that kind of stuff.

Yes, Serenaz - it's just that GZ continued until after graduation from high school according to this witness. In CA, the statutes are such that you must be more than two years older than the person you supposedly molested before you can be prosecuted for a crime...I don't know what Florida's laws are on molestation, statutory rape, etc. Does any one else know off hand?

The molestion had to have taken place in VA, so could FL prosecute? I do not know.

CherokeeNative wrote:

serenaz1 wrote:

Well back in my day, we used to call it playing 'doctor', but it was consensual exploring by both parties, not forceful molesting by one. So that doesn't necessarily mean Z had been molested too. There is a natural curiosity in kids to check out body parts & how they feel, all that kind of stuff.

Yes, Serenaz - it's just that GZ continued until after graduation from high school according to this witness. In CA, the statutes are such that you must be more than two years older than the person you supposedly molested before you can be prosecuted for a crime...I don't know what Florida's laws are on molestation, statutory rape, etc. Does any one else know off hand?

Yeah, I have no idea about their laws. I was mostly referring to the comment that Z must have been molested too if he started at a young age, which I don't believe is necessarily true. The fact that it kept happening PAST the age of initial curiosity makes it worse, imo.

So, this family member who according to her had been molested by Gz from when she was 6 and he was 8 (?).....got into a car and drove herself to where Gz was alone at when she was 16....got on the bed and layed there???....
She never tells anyone except her sister and parents at the age of 20??? and never told details....never told details to anyone but the detectives during this interview...did I hear right? AND no where does she say Gz threatened her....I don't know if I can go back and listen......sighs...someone tell me does this all make sense?

Is there a separate forum for the Jailhouse calls?

ecossie possie wrote:Witt 9 ...Afraid of GZ entire life..GZ shoots a stranger dead..Witt 9 no longer afraid of GZ..?

That's sad and it does seem like she never received any counseling about any of this.

Labadorable wrote:Is there a separate forum for the Jailhouse calls?

--there is:

http://www.realitychatter.com/t4062-doc-dump-anticipated-7-16-2012-judge-lester-s-release-of-jailhouse-phone-calls

--the media is just starting to tweet a bit about them now..

alabama52 wrote:The molestion had to have taken place in VA, so could FL prosecute? I do not know.

From what I heard the detectives asked her about the two incidents at the Lake Mary house...did penetration happen and she said no. This would have been in Florida....and from what I am understanding the only 2 incidents that occurred in FL. Correct me if I am wrong I have to take a break after listening to that. Child molestation is a subject that really upsets me.

@ellejay - thank you :)

What makes her believeable IMO is that she came forward before this case made public outrage...it was like two days after the shooting.

Hinky Refugee wrote:So, this family member who according to her had been molested by Gz from when she was 6 and he was 8 (?).....got into a car and drove herself to where Gz was alone at when she was 16....got on the bed and layed there???....
She never tells anyone except her sister and parents at the age of 20??? and never told details....never told details to anyone but the detectives during this interview...did I hear right? AND no where does she say Gz threatened her....I don't know if I can go back and listen......sighs...someone tell me does this all make sense?

got into a car and drove herself to where Gz was alone at when she was 16....got on the bed and layed there???....

Oh, my...she was of an age to walk away or not drive there by herself or not lay on the bed with him - I don't understand this.

http://twitter.com/mattgutmanABC
Matt Gutman‏@mattgutmanABC

@coreybking-----It is in the calls. Zimmerman has certainly read the bible, sounds like he knows it better than Pastor Jones

1hMatt Gutman‏@mattgutmanABC

Zimmerman reached out to Pastor Terry Jones (guy who strung up Obama in effigy) asks him not to rally in Sanford, but to visit GZ in jail.


2hMatt Gutman‏@mattgutmanABC

@GZlegalCase files an motion to court asking it to stop release of Witness 9 statement - Zimmerman cousin accuses him of molesting her.


2hMatt Gutman‏@mattgutmanABC

Witness 9 accuses Zimmerman of molesting her during from "age 6". She's GZ's cousin. Reached out to police after Trayvon Martin shooting

Prosecution for sexual assault or abuse has a statute of limitations of four years in Florida. In regards to child molestation specifically, there have recently been many changes to the statute of limitations nationwide. Indeed, eleven states have completely removed the limitations for child-sex crimes in the past 10 years. But after the Supreme court ruled that retroactively changing the statute of limitations (in order to prosecute crimes from long ago) was unconstitutional, many states were forced to scrap plans to do just that (Florida was one such state). The current law only allows four years from the date of the incident, but Florida has an extremely large number of complicated exceptions to it's limitation rules.

Hinky Refugee wrote:

alabama52 wrote:The molestion had to have taken place in VA, so could FL prosecute? I do not know.

From what I heard the detectives asked her about the two incidents at the Lake Mary house...did penetration happen and she said no. This would have been in Florida....and from what I am understanding the only 2 incidents that occurred in FL. Correct me if I am wrong I have to take a break after listening to that. Child molestation is a subject that really upsets me.

Thanks, Hinky Refugee. I am so busy today I probably will not be able to listen to this witness. I'm confused with the whole issue of what George did to her in FL. If the molestation started when she was six & ended when she was sixteen, then George, being two years older was still living in VA. LOL, I'll stop now & just wait til ya'll figure it out & post about it.

I have been catching up and have to wonder:

Setting aside whether or not this was the time to release this info, or if it has any bearing on the murder trial....
Why are we not horrified that GZ has been accused of being a child molester? We were horrified at Sandsusky when the allegations were made. We were ready to lynch Joe Paterno for his alledged involvement.
Why is this different? Because it was released in this under the Sunshine laws and many think it has nothing to do with the trial? Why are we not outraged that GZ may have molested a young girl? Set aside the murder for a minute and ask yourself, if the murder were not in play, how would you feel about this information?
As to the release, you can thank Florida Sunshine laws, not the judge, the prosecution or the defense. You can thank the people that voted it into law.

A. Statutory Rape—Criminal Offenses
A child under 16 years of age cannot consent to sexual activity, regardless of the age of the defendant. A child who is at least 16 years of age and less than 18 years of age cannot consent to sexual activity if the defendant is 24 years of age or older.

Definition of Offenses Offense Definition
Lewd or lascivious conduct[191] Lewd or lascivious conduct[192] with someone less than 16 years of age.
Lewd or lascivious battery[193] Sexual activity[194] with someone more than 12 years of age and less than 16 years of age.
Unlawful sexual activity with certain minors[195] Sexual activity with someone at least 16 years of age and less than 18 years of age where the defendant is at least 24 years of age.
Lewd or lascivious molestation[196] Lewd or lascivious molestation[197] with someone less than less than 16 years of age where the defendant is at least 18 years of age.[198]
Lewd or lascivious molestation with someone less than 16 years of age where the defendant is less than 18 years of age.[199]

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/SR/StateLaws/statelaws.shtml#Florida

I just listened to the audio and it is very upsetting. She sounds very believable to me, and it seems that there are a number of people who can corroborate at least the fact that she claimed years ago to have been molested. Her sister, her parents, a friend, men with whom she was intimate.

It does sound as if she never had any counseling. And clearly GZ's parents were told about it. I am worried about her, because I am sure that she never could have imagined that this interview would end up being played all over the world.

On the question of whether or not GZ was molested, I am not an expert on this, but I am under the impression that molesters usually have a history of having been victimized. I don't think that GZ's childhood behavior falls into the normal range of innocent curiosity.

I wish, for multiple reasons, that this had not been released.

reply to @alabama52..

I listed to W9 audio and I thought the acts took place in Louisiana & Lake Mary house (Zim's) in FL.

Chickenbutt wrote:I have been catching up and have to wonder:

Setting aside whether or not this was the time to release this info, or if it has any bearing on the murder trial....
Why are we not horrified that GZ has been accused of being a child molester? We were horrified at Sandsusky when the allegations were made. We were ready to lynch Joe Paterno for his alledged involvement.
Why is this different? Because it was released in this under the Sunshine laws and many think it has nothing to do with the trial? Why are we not outraged that GZ may have molested a young girl? Set aside the murder for a minute and ask yourself, if the murder were not in play, how would you feel about this information?
As to the release, you can thank Florida Sunshine laws, not the judge, the prosecution or the defense. You can thank the people that voted it into law.

Very good question, Chickenbutt! And, for myself, I don't know why my initial reaction was to feel that this was unfair to GZ. Because I am focused on the murder of Trayvon? Because it seemed unfair to release allegations with no chance for GZ to defend himself in court? Because these acts took place when GZ was a young child/teenager? Because I see aberrant behavior at the age of 8 as evidence that the child must have been subjected to abuse of some sort himself? Now that I've listened to W9's interview, I am really confused. She has been living a nightmare.

One question in my mind is whether additional victims of abuse by GZ will come forward now.

Other than W9 saying his mom's admitted to her that she is a racist, this tape doesn't give too much evidence against GZ. It will be her word against mom's word.

I can see her coming out at this time because finally others might be willing to see him as the monster she has known. Sunce he was only two years older the law might not have been on her side. Family pressure- upsetting her parents and breaking up the family is a lot of pressure for a young girl. She finally had no reason to worry. Without DNA evidence on her tramuatised body she'd not have much of a case. If she put up with it for years she knows that people would lie and say it was consensual- or worse- that she wanted it. We all know how these cases are tried.

If she's not deemed credible then GZ will ultimately get a lot of sympathy points off it. It's a shame it's coming out now but a whole lot of inflammatory inadmissable stuff will. If its true the jury will have to set it aside and have to concentrate on what happened that night. But they'll be plenty of other things that they will hear that they should not take into account either.

ecossie possie wrote:Witt 9 ...Afraid of GZ entire life..GZ shoots a stranger dead..Witt 9 no longer afraid of GZ..?

Labadorable wrote:reply to @alabama52..

I listed to W9 audio and I thought the acts took place in Louisiana & Lake Mary house (Zim's) in FL.

Ohhh, maybe the Zimmermans lived in Louisiana before VA or the cousin lived there & they visited???

@alabama52 - IDK where they lived - just know what I heard from W9 on the audio :)

--there's some info here on where they lived..

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/16/2897557/zimmerman-defense-attorney-will.html
“Witness 9” accused Zimmerman of sexually molesting her

--snipped--

The families lived in different states, but the incidents took place during annual visits for as long as 10 years, she said.

The woman said she is two years younger than Zimmerman. From the statement, it’s clear their families were close. When she was 6 and her family was in the process of moving from Louisiana to Orlando, she and her sister were sent to stay with the Zimmermans at their home in Virginia, she said.
~~~~

But the alleged abuse continued at least once a year during family visits, she said. She claims he would grope her behind curtains and once, when she was about 12, he allegedly made her rub his penis. She did not say he ever penetrated her.

He had “a certain look” whenever it was about to happen, she said.

She said the last incident occurred when she was 16, and the Zimmermans had recently moved to Centrral Florida, closer to where her family lives.

She never went to the police, she said, because her mother told her that cases like hers become “he said/she said,” and get dropped. Zimmerman’s parents “pushed it under the rug and pretended it never happened,” she said.

I did a mini transcript of W9 here is what I had from Part 1

It started when I was 6, um, he's about almost 2 yrs. older than I am and my parents were moving from Louisiana to Orlando and they sent us, me and my sister, up to , while they were moving. That's my earliest memory of him just trying to do things.

Ya'll are the best!!! Thank you!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Witness #9 says she never told her parents what happened; she said she "didn't want to talk about it".