Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

GlaringError wrote:

Freckles wrote:Tamta!
You are right! Got me ROTFLMAO!!!
Feel like I have been hoodwinked and snookered all in the same day!

Clipped-
" This call does not offer proof of what Adam knows or does not know, except at the end of the call:

-he knows the address"

There is actually a fact (true or not) relayed in the first sentence by Adam on the 911 call: " I got a girl hung herself in the guesthouse." I believe he just told us exactly what happened.

Well, we know he knew she didn't hang herself. Nobody sees a person bound hand and foot behind them, and gagged and thinks.... whyyy would she do this to herself!!! LOL no, it would be WHO did this???

But its nice to have some idea where it happened: "in the guest house"
Guess that's why there's no DNA in the main house

BBM.
Adam's inference.

However in lieu of additional facts, he however does report his eventual activity in regard to Rebecca:

-I'm doing CPR now. (muffled)
-I'm doing compressions.

Did anyone notice the use of the preposition "in", by Adam?
Rebecca was not "in" the guest house.
She was discovered outside, and was hanging off the balcony- supposedly.

Hi Tamta

" I got a girl hung herself in the guesthouse." I would imagine his thoughts were: "I got a girl, hung herself, in the guest house."

These are not inferences, but being supplied as facts. So, my inference from this is:

Truth: "I got a girl"
Lie: "hung herself"
Truth: "in the guest house"

I think it would be stage butterflies waiting for the 911 operator: he is so busy trying to remember to relay that she hung herself that he inadvertently added "in the guest house." He was relating what he saw, in my opinion, and speaking from memory. He forgot to censor that thought. If you hadn't seen it, it wouldn't be on your mind.

"hung herself in the courtyard" would be what he saw, but that isn't what came to his mind.
"hung herself from the balcony" would be what he saw, but that isn't what came to his mind.
"hung herself from the main house" would be what he saw, but that isn't what came to his mind.
And none of those things are what he said.
Much like not asking for "a weapon that could cause a gunshot-like wound" by the search warrant,
Adam does not say: "hung herself in the garage" because his mind would have no where to pull that from.

The above is strictly my opinion (my inference).

Continuation of glaring errors found within Adam's 911 call:

#6 Adam tells Op2 that he is doing chest compression after she asks him if Rebecca is alive. She then asks if he cut her down and if he is with her. Those are strange questions. How could he do chest compression if he had not cut her down or was not with her?

Here is an interesting article about interviewing and interrogation... in case anyone is interested:

http://colbycriminaljustice.wikidot.com/interview-and-interrogation

Makes me want to listen to Nina's interview again to see what hers was like :)

Nina says: "We were under the impression that he had cpr within two minutes because thats what she said...." " She said that he had his fall and she gave him cpr within two minutes of his fall."

Interviewr: "who said that?.... the nurse?"...

"Rebecca said that. Rebecca told Jonah that within two minutes of Max's fall that she was giving him cpr. Now we saw the ambulance report. The ambulance report said no cpr was given."

Okay, it sounds like REBECCA told the ambulance people she did not give cpr. That is why it would be in the report.

Nina says the only thing Rebecca would say about Max's incident is that "he fell from the bedroom." TWICE. and that's all she would say, and she would say nothing more.

If her boyfriend gave some made-up story and attributed it to Rebecca, that is not Rebecca's fault.

My opinion. Appologize if I am wrong.

Oh... and even Nina thinks it was strange that at 9:41 she got no response from Rebecca (9:50 to 10:20 on interview tape) http://www.cbs8.com/story/15982091/exclusive-max-shacknais-aunt-talks-about-coronado-mansion-deaths

At 11:40 in the tape Nina thinks its strange that Rebecca's car is in the driveway, but no answer at the door....

I guess that reality chatters aren't the only people that think something is strange. Nina gives her endorsement: its strange that Rebecca seems to have gone dark.

Just sayin'

From 'The Libri of Aleister Crowley,' 'For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence'.

Regarding placing the blame for Max's injury on Rebecca I agree with Dr. Scott Peck's theory in his book, People of the Lie; evil needs to hide, and almost always masks itself as righteousness.

Just saying.

GlaringError wrote:Oh... and even Nina thinks it was strange that at 9:41 she got no response from Rebecca (9:50 to 10:20 on interview tape) http://www.cbs8.com/story/15982091/exclusive-max-shacknais-aunt-talks-about-coronado-mansion-deaths

At 11:40 in the tape Nina thinks its strange that Rebecca's car is in the driveway, but no answer at the door....

I guess that reality chatters aren't the only people that think something is strange. Nina gives her endorsement: its strange that Rebecca seems to have gone dark.

Just sayin'

In my opinion, Dr. Scott Peck described the reason for the disrespect of Rebecca Zahau and her family when he wrote,"Those who are evil" exhibit a "brand of narcissism so total that they seem to lack, in whole or in part, this capacity for empathy."

Wig~o ... nice post... eloquent reference

but.... it almost seems as though you are referencing a ritualistic-type of murder of a young and pure soul.

***YIPES!!!***

Intuition tells me that the evil is not in Nina or Dina... at least not in this scenario.

GlaringError wrote:Nina says: "We were under the impression that he had cpr within two minutes because thats what she said...." " She said that he had his fall and she gave him cpr within two minutes of his fall."

Interviewr: "who said that?.... the nurse?"...

"Rebecca said that. Rebecca told Jonah that within two minutes of Max's fall that she was giving him cpr. Now we saw the ambulance report. The ambulance report said no cpr was given."

Okay, it sounds like REBECCA told the ambulance people she did not give cpr. That is why it would be in the report.

Nina says the only thing Rebecca would say about Max's incident is that "he fell from the bedroom." TWICE. and that's all she would say, and she would say nothing more.

If her boyfriend gave some made-up story and attributed it to Rebecca, that is not Rebecca's fault.

My opinion. Appologize if I am wrong.

BBM

Few if any women would help 'someone fall from a bedroom.'

Though, many women would and do lie to help their 'man' in a cover-up.

I don't know why.

GlaringError wrote:Wig~o ... nice post... eloquent reference

but.... it almost seems as though you are referencing a ritualistic-type of murder of a young and pure soul.

***YIPES!!!***

Intuition tells me that the evil is not in Nina or Dina... at least not in this scenario.

Imo, the evil was not in Rebecca, Nina or Dina in that particular scenario.

Did Nina have a lawyer?

31:10: "No. NO! No! I mean, absolutely not! Because I thought.... It never even occurred to me.... My concern was I want to know what's going on here. I want to know what on Earth is going ON? I even thought, like: This is scary. This happens to my nephew and then two days later, Rebecca! What in the HELL is going ON???"

(this is actually the second time in the interview that Nina said that she was scared, because she didn't know what was going on. The first time, she didn't want to leave her son alone, after Rebecca's demise)

31:50 of the Nina interview:

Intrvwr: "How did this whole suffocation thing come up with the doctor and when did he tell you?" ....

Nina: "Max had a consult on Wednesday... and this was after Rebecca had passed.... He had a cardiac consult and he had an MRI to find out the extent of the damage. That was Wednesday morning... early afternoon... is when we found out the actual extent of the damage. And it was shocking.
Because, just to back up a little bit...
when my sister told me about what happened to... you know, what, what happened with Rebecca... the first thing that we said was... well, why would... why would she? She hung herself with What? ... We don't even know what happened, we don't even know what's going on with Max... It was very bizarre, very very bizarre...."

I think Dina really wants answers. This seems like pretty genuine thought, to me, which I've been wrong many times before

Wig-o-matic wrote:From 'The Libri of Aleister Crowley,' 'For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence'.

Regarding placing the blame for Max's injury on Rebecca I agree with Dr. Scott Peck's theory in his book, People of the Lie; evil needs to hide, and almost always masks itself as righteousness.

Just saying.

Wig~O... with all due respect, and in reference to your ritualistic killing quote, you are the same poster that said you heard masturbation in the Adam 911 call.

Just sayin'

GlaringError wrote:

Wig-o-matic wrote:From 'The Libri of Aleister Crowley,' 'For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence'.

Regarding placing the blame for Max's injury on Rebecca I agree with Dr. Scott Peck's theory in his book, People of the Lie; evil needs to hide, and almost always masks itself as righteousness.

Just saying.

Wig~O... with all due respect, and in reference to your ritualistic killing quote, you are the same poster that said you heard masturbation in the Adam 911 call.

Just sayin'

No. I didn't write that I heard masturbation. I wrote that Adam's vocalizations were odd. When he allegedly performed chest compression he vocalized Ah, ah,ah,ah,...incrementally louder and louder giving one the impression of someone trying to have an orgasm.

Normally, one vocalizes and one, and two, and three, etc.. almost whispering when counting off chest compression. Also, to be exact with the newer guidelines for faster compression you would not expect to hear 'and'. You would simple count one, two, three, etc...

Wig~O.... Oh.... (or should I say oh, oh Oh, oH, OH!!!!)

Okay, well it was such an odd reference, the "someone trying to have an orgasm." I'm laughing as I type that LOL :)

Well, are you saying that in your opinion you think it is a ritualistic killing?

GlaringError wrote:Did Nina have a lawyer?

31:10: "No. NO! No! I mean, absolutely not! Because I thought.... It never even occurred to me.... My concern was I want to know what's going on here. I want to know what on Earth is going ON? I even thought, like: This is scary. This happens to my nephew and then two days later, Rebecca! What in the HELL is going ON???"

(this is actually the second time in the interview that Nina said that she was scared, because she didn't know what was going on. The first time, she didn't want to leave her son alone, after Rebecca's demise)

31:50 of the Nina interview:

Intrvwr: "How did this whole suffocation thing come up with the doctor and when did he tell you?" ....

Nina: "Max had a consult on Wednesday... and this was after Rebecca had passed.... He had a cardiac consult and he had an MRI to find out the extent of the damage. That was Wednesday morning... early afternoon... is when we found out the actual extent of the damage. And it was shocking.
Because, just to back up a little bit...
when my sister told me about what happened to... you know, what, what happened with Rebecca... the first thing that we said was... well, why would... why would she? She hung herself with What? ... We don't even know what happened, we don't even know what's going on with Max... It was very bizarre, very very bizarre...."

I think Dina really wants answers. This seems like pretty genuine thought, to me, which I've been wrong many times before

BBM

I agree that "...very,very bizarre" certainly describes these two deaths.

Nina's extreme fear and not wanting to leave her son alone is telling, don't you think?

Wig said: "BBM

I agree that "...very,very bizarre" certainly describes these two deaths.

Nina's extreme fear and not wanting to leave her son alone is telling, don't you think? Afro"

Telling of what?

Freckles wrote:Wig said: "BBM

I agree that "...very,very bizarre" certainly describes these two deaths.

Nina's extreme fear and not wanting to leave her son alone is telling, don't you think? Afro"

Telling of what?

Nina is 'telling' that she feared for her son's safety. Why? Did she believe there was a killer on the loose?

Glaring~e-

I'm curious about your unusual avatar. If you don't mind my question could you tell me about it?

I can't really tell if the woman in your avatar is dead or alive or experiencing the "Sleep of Siloam."

GlaringError wrote:Wig~O.... Oh.... (or should I say oh, oh Oh, oH, OH!!!!)

Okay, well it was such an odd reference, the "someone trying to have an orgasm." I'm laughing as I type that LOL :)

Well, are you saying that in your opinion you think it is a ritualistic killing?

Glaring~E-

I'm saying that the truth here has been obfuscated to the point that almost any theory would make more sense that purported lies surrounding the circumstances of these two deaths. Nina said it best when she described the situation as very, very bizarre.

Wig-o-matic wrote:

GlaringError wrote:Wig~O.... Oh.... (or should I say oh, oh Oh, oH, OH!!!!)

Okay, well it was such an odd reference, the "someone trying to have an orgasm." I'm laughing as I type that LOL :)

Well, are you saying that in your opinion you think it is a ritualistic killing?

Glaring~E-

I'm saying that the truth here has been obfuscated to the point that almost any theory would make more sense that purported lies surrounding the circumstances of these two deaths. Nina said it best when she described the situation as very, very bizarre.

Link for excerpt from the following articlehttp://abcnews.go.com/US/rebecca-zahaus-death-ritualistic-killing-expert/story?id=14463695#.T-tK2LV8A6h

...Maurice Godwin, who has a Ph.D. in criminal psychology and runs a forensic consultancy business in Fayetteville, N.C.

"This death has many hallmarks of a ritualistic killing," he said. "I think someone assaulted her physically. I think she was dazed, and they bound her."

Zahau allegedly used black paint to write the words "she saved him can you save her" on a bedroom door near the balcony where she was found hanging.

Godwin, who has been investigating crime scenes for 15 years, believes the black paint, which was also found on Zahau's breasts, collarbone and hands has a "ritualistic overtone."

Here are links for two more articles that discuss the ritualistic overtones in Rebecca's death.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mansion-mystery-death-rebecca-zahaus-family-demands-case/story?id=14553477#.T-qnoLV8A6g

http://suite101.com/article/modern-day-mansion-mystery-rebecca-zahau-a388291

GlaringError wrote:Nina says: "We were under the impression that he had cpr within two minutes because thats what she said...." " She said that he had his fall and she gave him cpr within two minutes of his fall."

Interviewr: "who said that?.... the nurse?"...

"Rebecca said that. Rebecca told Jonah that within two minutes of Max's fall that she was giving him cpr. Now we saw the ambulance report. The ambulance report said no cpr was given."

Okay, it sounds like REBECCA told the ambulance people she did not give cpr. That is why it would be in the report.

Nina says the only thing Rebecca would say about Max's incident is that "he fell from the bedroom." TWICE. and that's all she would say, and she would say nothing more.

If her boyfriend gave some made-up story and attributed it to Rebecca, that is not Rebecca's fault.

My opinion. Appologize if I am wrong.

B&IBM

This is interesting. Was Rebecca staged to look as though she "fell from the bedroom" or was she thrown over the balcony and out from the bedroom?

Also, did Adam give CPR? If so how did he do it without untying the rope from her neck and arms?

What an odd parallels.

We should do a running list of parallels between these two deaths. The results would be striking.

Wig-o-matic wrote:

Wig-o-matic wrote:

Glaring~E-

I'm saying that the truth here has been obfuscated to the point that almost any theory would make more sense that purported lies surrounding the circumstances of these two deaths. Nina said it best when she described the situation as very, very bizarre.

Link for excerpt from the following articlehttp://abcnews.go.com/US/rebecca-zahaus-death-ritualistic-killing-expert/story?id=14463695#.T-tK2LV8A6h

...Maurice Godwin, who has a Ph.D. in criminal psychology and runs a forensic consultancy business in Fayetteville, N.C.

"This death has many hallmarks of a ritualistic killing," he said. "I think someone assaulted her physically. I think she was dazed, and they bound her."

Zahau allegedly used black paint to write the words "she saved him can you save her" on a bedroom door near the balcony where she was found hanging.

Godwin, who has been investigating crime scenes for 15 years, believes the black paint, which was also found on Zahau's breasts, collarbone and hands has a "ritualistic overtone."

Here are links for two more articles that discuss the ritualistic overtones in Rebecca's death.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mansion-mystery-death-rebecca-zahaus-family-demands-case/story?id=14553477#.T-qnoLV8A6g

http://suite101.com/article/modern-day-mansion-mystery-rebecca-zahau-a388291

Well I'm a forensic psychologist, and why a specialist in criminal psychology would characterize the imagery or content of this crime as ritualistic over sadistic and staged is mind boggling to me.

He must have been getting his information from Gore.

Many "coincidences", WOM. Including Adam's 18 minute delay in calling 911, saying he gave CPR, death by hyperextension of the neck, injuries to the back, falling from the bedroom, the t-shirt.. maybe the 3-legged table was "placed on its side", positioned on RZ's lower left shin causing injuries to her lower left shin (see injuries to RZ's lower left shin in Cynic's drawing) such as the Razor-type scooter was on little Max's lower left shin.


That there is a clear view of the hanging room balcony from the balcony from which little Max fell? Hmmm, yet another coincidence.

Least not forget that both his parents were aware of the scenario of how little Max was found on Monday, the day of his "accident." This was before Rebecca's death the following night.

Eileen_Dover wrote:Many "coincidences", WOM. Including Adam's 18 minute delay in calling 911, saying he gave CPR, death by hyperextension of the neck, injuries to the back, falling from the bedroom, the t-shirt.. maybe the 3-legged table was "placed on its side", positioned on RZ's lower left shin causing injuries to her lower left shin (see injuries to RZ's lower left shin in Cynic's drawing) such as the Razor-type scooter was on little Max's lower left shin.


That there is a clear view of the hanging room balcony from the balcony from which little Max fell? Hmmm, yet another coincidence.

Least not forget that both his parents were aware of the scenario of how little Max was found on Monday, the day of his "accident." This was before Rebecca's death the following night.

The chandelier is incredibly close to the banister on the landing in front of Max's room.

Tamta wrote:

Wig-o-matic wrote:
Link for excerpt from the following articlehttp://abcnews.go.com/US/rebecca-zahaus-death-ritualistic-killing-expert/story?id=14463695#.T-tK2LV8A6h

...Maurice Godwin, who has a Ph.D. in criminal psychology and runs a forensic consultancy business in Fayetteville, N.C.

"This death has many hallmarks of a ritualistic killing," he said. "I think someone assaulted her physically. I think she was dazed, and they bound her."

Zahau allegedly used black paint to write the words "she saved him can you save her" on a bedroom door near the balcony where she was found hanging.

Godwin, who has been investigating crime scenes for 15 years, believes the black paint, which was also found on Zahau's breasts, collarbone and hands has a "ritualistic overtone."

Here are links for two more articles that discuss the ritualistic overtones in Rebecca's death.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mansion-mystery-death-rebecca-zahaus-family-demands-case/story?id=14553477#.T-qnoLV8A6g

http://suite101.com/article/modern-day-mansion-mystery-rebecca-zahau-a388291

Well I'm a forensic psychologist, and why a specialist in criminal psychology would characterize the imagery or content of this crime as ritualistic over sadistic and staged is mind boggling to me.

He must have been getting his information from Gore.

I'm sure there's room to share differing professional opinions. Imo, this skandalon need not result in a mimetic crisis.

Wig-o-matic wrote:

Wig-o-matic wrote:

Glaring~E-

I'm saying that the truth here has been obfuscated to the point that almost any theory would make more sense that purported lies surrounding the circumstances of these two deaths. Nina said it best when she described the situation as very, very bizarre.

Link for excerpt from the following articlehttp://abcnews.go.com/US/rebecca-zahaus-death-ritualistic-killing-expert/story?id=14463695#.T-tK2LV8A6h

...Maurice Godwin, who has a Ph.D. in criminal psychology and runs a forensic consultancy business in Fayetteville, N.C.

"This death has many hallmarks of a ritualistic killing," he said. "I think someone assaulted her physically. I think she was dazed, and they bound her."

Zahau allegedly used black paint to write the words "she saved him can you save her" on a bedroom door near the balcony where she was found hanging.

Godwin, who has been investigating crime scenes for 15 years, believes the black paint, which was also found on Zahau's breasts, collarbone and hands has a "ritualistic overtone."

Here are links for two more articles that discuss the ritualistic overtones in Rebecca's death.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mansion-mystery-death-rebecca-zahaus-family-demands-case/story?id=14553477#.T-qnoLV8A6g

http://suite101.com/article/modern-day-mansion-mystery-rebecca-zahau-a388291

Thank you, Wig~0~matic...

I couldn't help but notice this link: http://khloe-reality.blogspot.com/2012/06/shacknai-hired-private-detective-after.html

I guess Khloe K is also interested in this case. I wonder if Sitrick will call her mommy?

Tamta wrote:

Eileen_Dover wrote:Many "coincidences", WOM. Including Adam's 18 minute delay in calling 911, saying he gave CPR, death by hyperextension of the neck, injuries to the back, falling from the bedroom, the t-shirt.. maybe the 3-legged table was "placed on its side", positioned on RZ's lower left shin causing injuries to her lower left shin (see injuries to RZ's lower left shin in Cynic's drawing) such as the Razor-type scooter was on little Max's lower left shin.


That there is a clear view of the hanging room balcony from the balcony from which little Max fell? Hmmm, yet another coincidence.

Least not forget that both his parents were aware of the scenario of how little Max was found on Monday, the day of his "accident." This was before Rebecca's death the following night.

The chandelier is incredibly close to the banister on the landing in front of Max's room.

Eileen-

I was reading another forum and I found one of your posts that had been copied and pasted from when you posted on THM.

It was a good post with an insightful observation about the possibility of someone other than Rebecca being considered a POI regarding Max's injury. The following was posted by kitty chi on 4/12/2012:

posted today by Eileen Dover at The Hinky Meter:

Detective Adkins (Coronado Police Dept) was investigating MS' death as a possible child abuse or homicide case. On July 15, 2011, he applied for and was granted a sealed search warrant. His reasoning was:

"We do not wish to divulge the information contained within these documents for fear that the perpetrators can destroy evidence."

Rebecca died on July 12/13, 2011, so obviously she couldn't destroy evidence if the search warrant was made public!! So who are the perpetrators Det. Adkins feared would destroy evidence?


Please forgive my presumption to copying and pasting your post but I thought you made an excellent point.

GlaringError wrote:

Wig-o-matic wrote:
Link for excerpt from the following articlehttp://abcnews.go.com/US/rebecca-zahaus-death-ritualistic-killing-expert/story?id=14463695#.T-tK2LV8A6h

...Maurice Godwin, who has a Ph.D. in criminal psychology and runs a forensic consultancy business in Fayetteville, N.C.

"This death has many hallmarks of a ritualistic killing," he said. "I think someone assaulted her physically. I think she was dazed, and they bound her."

Zahau allegedly used black paint to write the words "she saved him can you save her" on a bedroom door near the balcony where she was found hanging.

Godwin, who has been investigating crime scenes for 15 years, believes the black paint, which was also found on Zahau's breasts, collarbone and hands has a "ritualistic overtone."

Here are links for two more articles that discuss the ritualistic overtones in Rebecca's death.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mansion-mystery-death-rebecca-zahaus-family-demands-case/story?id=14553477#.T-qnoLV8A6g

http://suite101.com/article/modern-day-mansion-mystery-rebecca-zahau-a388291

Thank you, Wig~0~matic...

I couldn't help but notice this link: http://khloe-reality.blogspot.com/2012/06/shacknai-hired-private-detective-after.html

I guess Khloe K is also interested in this case. I wonder if Sitrick will call her mommy?

Glaring~Error-

What a cute little article. I'm sure Kris Jenner is proud that Khloe has developed some depth by taking an interest in these very, very bizarre deaths.

Don't worry about Sitrick and co. They don't have the time to worry about Khloe. I'm sure they're plenty busy with more pressing matters.

Rebecca cutting the rope segments:

From calculations, the total length of the rope from bedpost to Rebecca's neck was 377.6 inches

The length of rope used for ankle binding was 187.1 inches

The length of rope needed (not used) for wrist binding was 78.8 inches

So let's say Rebecca gets the 720 inch (60ft) tubing tow rope and puts it down on the carpet in the hanging room. First she needs a length of rope to hang herself.

Without stepping out on the balcony, and without a calculator or a ruler, she meticulously measures the length from bedpost to ground level off the balcony, subtracts her height (63 1/2 inches) and leaves a margin of between 24 or 28 inches so she won't hit the ground. Perfect.

(Note: fortunately atmospheric conditions were such that the bed only jumped 6.5 inches rather than the 36 inches as per CBS8 reenactment, or she would have splatted on the ground and broken a leg or back without strangling herself.)

She then proceeds to cut the amount of rope needed to bind her ankles: 6 times around right, eight times around left, leaving a 2 inch gap between ankles. No left over rope. Perfect.

Then comes her wrists. Hmmm, what to do. She is now left with a piece of rope 162.8 inches in length. So she begins wrapping: 5 times around right, 6 times around left, leaving a 2.5 inch gap between wrists. Great. That should do the trick.

But… what the heck. Now she's left with 84 inches of rope dangling from her wrists. And that's before she does the magic trick of slipping one wrist out, moving rope knots behind her back, finding the space to slip that wrist back in.

So I ask: Why didn't she cut that excess 84 inches off the bloody "wrist" rope before binding her wrists?? She was precise in cutting the noose rope, in cutting the ankle rope. She had 2 knives for heaven's sake. Cut the dang thing off!

But no. Instead she had to somehow bunch up, in her bound hands, a length of rope far longer (84 inches) than her own height (63 1/2 inches) so that it wouldn't leave a trail marking on the dirty balcony.

IMO that excess 84 inches, taking into consideration her bent knees in rigor, was the perfect length to tie her bound wrists to her bound ankles. There's a word for this: hogtying.

Early reports speculated she was hogtied. Try to hogtie yourself. Not easy, but am sure Gore and his faithful followers will find plenty of examples to make it fit into the suicide meme.

Wig-o-matic wrote:

Tamta wrote:

The chandelier is incredibly close to the banister on the landing in front of Max's room.

Eileen-

I was reading another forum and I found one of your posts that had been copied and pasted from when you posted on THM.

It was a good post with an insightful observation about the possibility of someone other than Rebecca being considered a POI regarding Max's injury. The following was posted by kitty chi on 4/12/2012:

posted today by Eileen Dover at The Hinky Meter:

Detective Adkins (Coronado Police Dept) was investigating MS' death as a possible child abuse or homicide case. On July 15, 2011, he applied for and was granted a sealed search warrant. His reasoning was:

"We do not wish to divulge the information contained within these documents for fear that the perpetrators can destroy evidence."

Rebecca died on July 12/13, 2011, so obviously she couldn't destroy evidence if the search warrant was made public!! So who are the perpetrators Det. Adkins feared would destroy evidence?


Please forgive my presumption to copying and pasting your post but I thought you made an excellent point.

And what facts would be behind that scenario?

Tamta wrote:

Wig-o-matic wrote:

Eileen-

I was reading another forum and I found one of your posts that had been copied and pasted from when you posted on THM.

It was a good post with an insightful observation about the possibility of someone other than Rebecca being considered a POI regarding Max's injury. The following was posted by kitty chi on 4/12/2012:

posted today by Eileen Dover at The Hinky Meter:

Detective Adkins (Coronado Police Dept) was investigating MS' death as a possible child abuse or homicide case. On July 15, 2011, he applied for and was granted a sealed search warrant. His reasoning was:

"We do not wish to divulge the information contained within these documents for fear that the perpetrators can destroy evidence."

Rebecca died on July 12/13, 2011, so obviously she couldn't destroy evidence if the search warrant was made public!! So who are the perpetrators Det. Adkins feared would destroy evidence?


Please forgive my presumption to copying and pasting your post but I thought you made an excellent point.

And what facts would be behind that scenario?

Tamta - didn't understand your question... My original quote is copied from the search warrant.

Eileen_Dover wrote:

Tamta wrote:

And what facts would be behind that scenario?

Tamta - didn't understand your question... My original quote is copied from the search warrant.

It was a rhetorical one, not directed at you specifically, more to LE.

Aside from speculating on criminal negligence on the behalf of Rebecca, why would LE be speculating on abuse or another type of homicide by the hand's of someone else?

Is this not standard language for a motion to seal warrants: "We do not wish to divulge the information contained within these documents for fear that the perpetrators can destroy evidence."

What circumstances could have pointed to that, I wonder.

[quote="Wig-o-matic"}

Eileen-

I was reading another forum and I found one of your posts that had been copied and pasted from when you posted on THM.

It was a good post with an insightful observation about the possibility of someone other than Rebecca being considered a POI regarding Max's injury. The following was posted by kitty chi on 4/12/2012:

posted today by Eileen Dover at The Hinky Meter:

Detective Adkins (Coronado Police Dept) was investigating MS' death as a possible child abuse or homicide case. On July 15, 2011, he applied for and was granted a sealed search warrant. His reasoning was:

"We do not wish to divulge the information contained within these documents for fear that the perpetrators can destroy evidence."

Rebecca died on July 12/13, 2011, so obviously she couldn't destroy evidence if the search warrant was made public!! So who are the perpetrators Det. Adkins feared would destroy evidence?


Please forgive my presumption to copying and pasting your post but I thought you made an excellent point. [/quote]

That is an excellent post, as to "the perpetraor."

I love the Gore/Lucas clown show

Gore says that even though it is highly unlikely and never heard of before (surpassing unusual), that, yes, Rebecca killed herself by hanging in the most bizarre fashion:

Gore: "'This type of a suicide — its unusual but I don't think it's unprecedented,' Sheriff Gore said."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2033617/Jonah-Shacknais-lover-Rebecca-Zahau-tape-residue-legs-t-shirt-stuffed-mouth.html

And Lucas:

"Referring to the tape residue, he said "...their significance is not clear. Their position and size would have been unusual for evidence of leg binding."http://www.examiner.com/article/medical-examiner-releases-new-facts-about-rebecca-zahau-suicide-finding

Reasoning: Rebecca was not taped by a perpetrator because the positioning of the tape was, according to him, unusual (I'm sure he has data to back that up).

But, even though it is theeeee mossssst unusual and unprecedented suicide EVER, it probably happened that way.

awesome, Sheriff... BRAVO!!!

GlaringError wrote:[quote="Wig-o-matic"}

Eileen-

I was reading another forum and I found one of your posts that had been copied and pasted from when you posted on THM.

It was a good post with an insightful observation about the possibility of someone other than Rebecca being considered a POI regarding Max's injury. The following was posted by kitty chi on 4/12/2012:

posted today by Eileen Dover at The Hinky Meter:

Detective Adkins (Coronado Police Dept) was investigating MS' death as a possible child abuse or homicide case. On July 15, 2011, he applied for and was granted a sealed search warrant. His reasoning was:

"We do not wish to divulge the information contained within these documents for fear that the perpetrators can destroy evidence."

Rebecca died on July 12/13, 2011, so obviously she couldn't destroy evidence if the search warrant was made public!! So who are the perpetrators Det. Adkins feared would destroy evidence?


Please forgive my presumption to copying and pasting your post but I thought you made an excellent point.

That is an excellent post, as to "the perpetraor."

I love the Gore/Lucas clown show

Gore says that even though it is highly unlikely and never heard of before (surpassing unusual), that, yes, Rebecca killed herself by hanging in the most bizarre fashion:

Gore: "'This type of a suicide — its unusual but I don't think it's unprecedented,' Sheriff Gore said."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2033617/Jonah-Shacknais-lover-Rebecca-Zahau-tape-residue-legs-t-shirt-stuffed-mouth.html

And Lucas:

"Referring to the tape residue, he said "...their significance is not clear. Their position and size would have been unusual for evidence of leg binding."http://www.examiner.com/article/medical-examiner-releases-new-facts-about-rebecca-zahau-suicide-finding

Reasoning: Rebecca was not taped by a perpetrator because the positioning of the tape was, according to him, unusual (I'm sure he has data to back that up).

But, even though it is theeeee mossssst unusual and unprecedented suicide EVER, it probably happened that way.

awesome, Sheriff... BRAVO!!![/quote]

_____________________________________________________________________________________________
B&IBM

Glaring~E-

Where did Lucas state that tape could not have been placed on Rebecca's legs by a perpetrator? It was not in the AR or IR. Where did you find that statement?

The following excerpt from Rebecca's AR pertains to the location of the tape residue on her legs.

On the anterolateral mid left shin there is a 1 x 5/8 inch gray piece of material and two smaller pieces just distal to it, measuring 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch (Comment:appears similar to tape residue). On the lateral distal right lower leg there is 1-1/4 x 5/8 inch area consisting of three horizontal oriented, parallel, somewhat evenly spaced, areas of sticky, tan-gray apparent tape residue. They are situated between 3/16 and 5/16 inch apart.


So, this is what we have:

1) material similar to tape residue on Rebecca's left, front and outer mid shin

2) sticky gray tape residue on the lower outside portion of her right leg

The theoretical scenario would be that Rebecca's left leg may have been taped to the left leg of the white wicker chair at the mid shin level. The right leg may have been secured to the right leg of the same chair at above the ankle.

I could have done that with help but never would. Tell me how you think that it would be impossible for a perpetrator/s to have taped her the way described?

Where did Lucas state it could not be done? Is there a link?

Tamta wrote:

Eileen_Dover wrote:
Tamta - didn't understand your question... My original quote is copied from the search warrant.

It was a rhetorical one, not directed at you specifically, more to LE.

Aside from speculating on criminal negligence on the behalf of Rebecca, why would LE be speculating on abuse or another type of homicide by the hand's of someone else?

Is this not standard language for a motion to seal warrants: "We do not wish to divulge the information contained within these documents for fear that the perpetrators can destroy evidence."

What circumstances could have pointed to that, I wonder.

According to this article the search warrant was sealed because Dr. Peterson suspected that Max had been strangled before going over the railing. Det. Adkins hoped to find the weapon used to strangle him.

However, when Lucas ruled that Max's injuries caused immediate, irreparable and fatal damage the strangulation issue was dropped. Apparently both parents accepted Lucas' findings because there was no demand for a continued investigation. Here's the article.

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-warrant-doctor-suspected-shacknai-boy-had-been-strangled-20110922,0,6444007.story

Eileen - TY for the post on the rope lengths

Very interesting - love the writing style, too.

"If" RZ decided to kill herself by going over a railing - similar to how Max died, why wouldn't she have gone over the same railing that Max went over? Why go over a railing located outdoors and in the nude?

So...all those extra inches of rope at the wrists and she would have had to hold onto it so as not to disturb dust on the outdoor balcony. (As she went hoppity-hop...)

Does anyone recall in the reenactment of the rope tying that was done (not the reenactmen done by SDSO - but the other one) by the young woman who said RZ could have done all of this in the timeframe - did "that reenactment" include the young woman going through the machinations of measuring out the rope for the rope around the bedpost and the neck and over the railing? Shouldn't that be added to any reenactment?

Does anyone know if the type rope used on RZ would leave any little shavings when being cut into pieces? The rope was cut a couple of times, but I haven't read anything about any red rope shavings being found.

Speaking of rope - do you guys remember a short time back that we had a discussion about the rope "knots" - and some posters were adamant that the knots were not "nautical" or, according to Sheriff Gore, not "known" knots?

It was commented that they were "random" knots.

Anyone remember?

Further, that references to Adam working on a tugboat, had nothing to do with the "knots" used on Rebecca.

I may have said something (words to the effect) about people using knowledge they have, especially if they're knowledgeable about knots and that someone used to using knots, would "automatically" tie a knot they know is best for the desired result. Without thinking...just tie the knot.

Any of this sound familiar?

Where was a description of the rope tied around Rebecca's wrists written? I do remember reading something about extra loops around one of the wrists...like a starting point..wrap the rope around and around one wrist (an anchor or starting point) and the wrapping around one wrist and then the other?

Maybe it was about the ankles?

Here's a link to the reenactment (not the one done by SDSO) and, yes, they did include a little time for measuring the rope. However, I do believe that this had been figured out prior to filming of the renacement. In other words, if it were Rebecca doing it for the first time, it would take longer to think about and test out the length of the rope before cutting it.

I encourage you to refresh your recollection of the young lady tying the rope around her "ankles".

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15928565/news-8-reenacts-the-coronado-mansion-mystery

Puzzler wrote:Speaking of rope - do you guys remember a short time back that we had a discussion about the rope "knots" - and some posters were adamant that the knots were not "nautical" or, according to Sheriff Gore, not "known" knots?

It was commented that they were "random" knots.

Anyone remember?

Yeah I remember.

Eileen_Dover wrote:Rebecca cutting the rope segments:

From calculations, the total length of the rope from bedpost to Rebecca's neck was 377.6 inches

The length of rope used for ankle binding was 187.1 inches

The length of rope needed (not used) for wrist binding was 78.8 inches

So let's say Rebecca gets the 720 inch (60ft) tubing tow rope and puts it down on the carpet in the hanging room. First she needs a length of rope to hang herself.

Without stepping out on the balcony, and without a calculator or a ruler, she meticulously measures the length from bedpost to ground level off the balcony, subtracts her height (63 1/2 inches) and leaves a margin of between 24 or 28 inches so she won't hit the ground. Perfect.

(Note: fortunately atmospheric conditions were such that the bed only jumped 6.5 inches rather than the 36 inches as per CBS8 reenactment, or she would have splatted on the ground and broken a leg or back without strangling herself.)

She then proceeds to cut the amount of rope needed to bind her ankles: 6 times around right, eight times around left, leaving a 2 inch gap between ankles. No left over rope. Perfect.

Then comes her wrists. Hmmm, what to do. She is now left with a piece of rope 162.8 inches in length. So she begins wrapping: 5 times around right, 6 times around left, leaving a 2.5 inch gap between wrists. Great. That should do the trick.

But… what the heck. Now she's left with 84 inches of rope dangling from her wrists. And that's before she does the magic trick of slipping one wrist out, moving rope knots behind her back, finding the space to slip that wrist back in.

So I ask: Why didn't she cut that excess 84 inches off the bloody "wrist" rope before binding her wrists?? She was precise in cutting the noose rope, in cutting the ankle rope. She had 2 knives for heaven's sake. Cut the dang thing off!

But no. Instead she had to somehow bunch up, in her bound hands, a length of rope far longer (84 inches) than her own height (63 1/2 inches) so that it wouldn't leave a trail marking on the dirty balcony.

IMO that excess 84 inches, taking into consideration her bent knees in rigor, was the perfect length to tie her bound wrists to her bound ankles. There's a word for this: hogtying.

Early reports speculated she was hogtied. Try to hogtie yourself. Not easy, but am sure Gore and his faithful followers will find plenty of examples to make it fit into the suicide meme.

Clipped-
"
(Note: fortunately atmospheric conditions were such that the bed only jumped 6.5 inches rather than the 36 inches as per CBS8 reenactment, or she would have splatted on the ground and broken a leg or back without strangling herself.)"
---Excellent observation!

" 6 times around right, eight times around left, leaving a 2 inch gap between ankles. "
---So the first binding started on the left, then right, ending with the last wrap on the left so the left will have two more wraps than the right.

" So she begins wrapping: 5 times around right, 6 times around left, leaving a 2.5 inch gap between wrists."
--- Again, she begins wrapping with the left wrist and ends, this time, with the right wrist.


"Early reports speculated she was hogtied. "
--- I still believe she may have been hogtied. That is what AS released on her body when he did NOT release her bindings on her hands!

Puzzler wrote:Further, that references to Adam working on a tugboat, had nothing to do with the "knots" used on Rebecca.

I may have said something (words to the effect) about people using knowledge they have, especially if they're knowledgeable about knots and that someone used to using knots, would "automatically" tie a knot they know is best for the desired result. Without thinking...just tie the knot.

Any of this sound familiar?

Yep. I remember very well.
I also recall ThirdEye or Jessica2 saying Adam is a sweetie.

Puzzler wrote:Does anyone know if the type rope used on RZ would leave any little shavings when being cut into pieces? The rope was cut a couple of times, but I haven't read anything about any red rope shavings being found.

It would. I doubt if it was vacuumed or collected for examination.
Also, angle of the cut would have been determined.

Where are the ropes at this time?

Puzzler wrote:Speaking of rope - do you guys remember a short time back that we had a discussion about the rope "knots" - and some posters were adamant that the knots were not "nautical" or, according to Sheriff Gore, not "known" knots?

It was commented that they were "random" knots.

Anyone remember?

Same knot used to bind on all locations on Rebecca.
Not sure of the hanging knot.
The bed frame used a DIFFERENT type of knot and it was well executed to hold and disburse the wt.

And Lucas:

"Referring to the tape residue, he said "...their significance is not clear. Their position and size would have been unusual for evidence of leg binding." http://www.examiner.com/article/medical-examiner-releases-new-facts-about-rebecca-zahau-suicide-finding

I saw the Ringling Bros/Barnum & Bailey train on my way to the airport... I wonder if Gore/Lucas are inside?
*insert squeaky horn sound here>>>

Hog tied would explain the bent and apart knees. I still don't understand how the bent legs are explained. Were her legs in that position when the ME first viewed her body on the scene, or had he waited so long to arrive that the rigor was decreasing and her leg fell down on to the other one? Where are the notes on this aspect of the scene. Would not an officer have noted her body position, including her legs, when she was first attended by personnel arriving on the scene? Wouldn't that be photographed? I don't recall any comment by LE or ME on that aspect. Has anyone read or seen any discussion or confirmation as to the position the body was in when found?

Freckles wrote:

Puzzler wrote:Does anyone know if the type rope used on RZ would leave any little shavings when being cut into pieces? The rope was cut a couple of times, but I haven't read anything about any red rope shavings being found.

It would. I doubt if it was vacuumed or collected for examination.
Also, angle of the cut would have been determined.

Where are the ropes at this time?

Okay...angle - so does that mean that you could tell by the "angle" whether a left-hand or a right-handed person cut the rope?

Freckles wrote:

Puzzler wrote:Speaking of rope - do you guys remember a short time back that we had a discussion about the rope "knots" - and some posters were adamant that the knots were not "nautical" or, according to Sheriff Gore, not "known" knots?

It was commented that they were "random" knots.

Anyone remember?

Same knot used to bind on all locations on Rebecca.
Not sure of the hanging knot.
The bed frame used a DIFFERENT type of knot and it was well executed to hold and disburse the wt.

The bed frame and the noose were both tied with a "slip knot".

IMO, a "slip knot" is a "known knot".