Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Freckles wrote:

Puzzler wrote:Does anyone know if the type rope used on RZ would leave any little shavings when being cut into pieces? The rope was cut a couple of times, but I haven't read anything about any red rope shavings being found.

It would. I doubt if it was vacuumed or collected for examination.
Also, angle of the cut would have been determined.

Where are the ropes at this time?

I don't remember hearing anything about "where the ropes are". Hopefully, as part of the evidence, pictures of the ends of the ropes were taken under magnification.

Respectfully snipped for quote limitation-

Tamta wrote:It was a rhetorical one, not directed at you specifically, more to LE.

Aside from speculating on criminal negligence on the behalf of Rebecca, why would LE be speculating on abuse or another type of homicide by the hand's of someone else?

Is this not standard language for a motion to seal warrants: "We do not wish to divulge the information contained within these documents for fear that the perpetrators can destroy evidence."

What circumstances could have pointed to that, I wonder.

Regarding the legal wording of warrant 41290 used to seize items in Max's death investigation. Eileen and I both posted on this particuliar subject here at the RC on page 4 of this thread.

The warrant used to seize items from the mansion during Rebecca's death investigation used the same legal wording. Warrant 41227, page 11. In my opinion this is commonly used wording in this type of warrant request. Two different warrants, two different detectives, same words.

Warrant 41227 - http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/warrant_41227.pdf

Lash wrote:Respectfully snipped for quote limitation-

Tamta wrote:It was a rhetorical one, not directed at you specifically, more to LE.

Aside from speculating on criminal negligence on the behalf of Rebecca, why would LE be speculating on abuse or another type of homicide by the hand's of someone else?

Is this not standard language for a motion to seal warrants: "We do not wish to divulge the information contained within these documents for fear that the perpetrators can destroy evidence."

What circumstances could have pointed to that, I wonder.

Regarding the legal wording of warrant 41290 used to seize items in Max's death investigation. Eileen and I both posted on this particuliar subject here at the RC on page 4 of this thread.

The warrant used to seize items from the mansion during Rebecca's death investigation used the same legal wording. Warrant 41227, page 11. In my opinion this is commonly used wording in this type of warrant request. Two different warrants, two different detectives, same words.

Warrant 41227 - http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/warrant_41227.pdf

Good morning!

Thanks.

GlaringError wrote:And Lucas:

"Referring to the tape residue, he said "...their significance is not clear. Their position and size would have been unusual for evidence of leg binding." http://www.examiner.com/article/medical-examiner-releases-new-facts-about-rebecca-zahau-suicide-finding

I saw the Ringling Bros/Barnum & Bailey train on my way to the airport... I wonder if Gore/Lucas are inside?
*insert squeaky horn sound here>>>

Hog tied would explain the bent and apart knees. I still don't understand how the bent legs are explained. Were her legs in that position when the ME first viewed her body on the scene, or had he waited so long to arrive that the rigor was decreasing and her leg fell down on to the other one? Where are the notes on this aspect of the scene. Would not an officer have noted her body position, including her legs, when she was first attended by personnel arriving on the scene? Wouldn't that be photographed? I don't recall any comment by LE or ME on that aspect. Has anyone read or seen any discussion or confirmation as to the position the body was in when found?

Glaring~E-

Thank you for the link!

Lucas' statement that "Referring to the tape residue, he said "...their significance is not clear. Their position and size would have been unusual for evidence of leg binding."

Imo, the first statement was half true about the significance of the tape residue being unclear. It could have also been deduced that the perpetrator/s taped her legs to the white wicker chair.

The second statement was wholly untrue, imo. He did not elaborate on what position and size of tape residue would have been expected if done by a perpetrator.

Do you think there was a perpetrator manual that instructed them how to bind legs to a chair? Of course not. They taped her legs however they could to achieve their goals. Afterwards they took the tape with them.

There was no murder investigation here. Lucas' explanation did not logically or scientifically rule out the possibility that tape residue was put there by the murderer/s. This death should have been ruled undetermined and the case should have remained open. The above is imo. fro:

Wig-o-matic wrote:

GlaringError wrote:And Lucas:

"Referring to the tape residue, he said "...their significance is not clear. Their position and size would have been unusual for evidence of leg binding." http://www.examiner.com/article/medical-examiner-releases-new-facts-about-rebecca-zahau-suicide-finding

I saw the Ringling Bros/Barnum & Bailey train on my way to the airport... I wonder if Gore/Lucas are inside?
*insert squeaky horn sound here>>>

Hog tied would explain the bent and apart knees. I still don't understand how the bent legs are explained. Were her legs in that position when the ME first viewed her body on the scene, or had he waited so long to arrive that the rigor was decreasing and her leg fell down on to the other one? Where are the notes on this aspect of the scene. Would not an officer have noted her body position, including her legs, when she was first attended by personnel arriving on the scene? Wouldn't that be photographed? I don't recall any comment by LE or ME on that aspect. Has anyone read or seen any discussion or confirmation as to the position the body was in when found?

Glaring~E-

Thank you for the link!

Lucas' statement that "Referring to the tape residue, he said "...their significance is not clear. Their position and size would have been unusual for evidence of leg binding."

Imo, the first statement was half true about the significance of the tape residue being unclear. It could have also been deduced that the perpetrator/s taped her legs to the white wicker chair.

The second statement was wholly untrue, imo. He did not elaborate on what position and size of tape residue would have been expected if done by a perpetrator.

Do you think there was a perpetrator manual that instructed them how to bind legs to a chair? Of course not. They taped her legs however they could to achieve their goals. Afterwards they took the tape with them.

There was no murder investigation here. Lucas' explanation did not logically or scientifically rule out the possibility that tape residue was put there by the murderer/s. This death should have been ruled undetermined and the case should have remained open. The above is imo. fro:

BBM.

His AR allows for the conclusion of basically an unnatural, unusual and rare but statistically 'possible' and explainable death of hanging by suicide.

IMO, his evidence leads to this conclusion.

I do not think what he is saying is untrue, it is simply that he is opting to operate from the assumption, however as an expert:

that most people who are found to be bound by the lower extremities are usually done so around the ankles and not between the ankles and knees.

If he is trying to discern if she tied herself up or someone else did it with the rope, adhesive residue is not going to be relevant to that specific act.

Upon observing this point the ME has to do some interpretive work. He actually does so, but rather than doing so in a way that may allow for additional insight through speculation that would invite other investigative scenarios, he opts not to and interprets it as unusual so not compelling enough to consider as a hard fact allowing for the conclusion that she was bound by someone else. I mean he is looking at how to illuminate on a hanging, and adhesive residue on the shins is not going to help him form an explanation, so he 'has' to give weight to other obvious variables. He appears to consider it tangential evidence and is not compelled by its proximity to allow it have bearing on his conclusion.

People do it in science ALL of the time and statistically it is not wrong to do so either.

To my mind, it fits perfectly with the balancing act trend of this investigation whereby one side of the adversary system:

LE and the State, appear to be acting more like the Defense, focused on the task of creating reasonable doubt, rather than acting like the Prosecution, with its task of scrutinizing circumstances and evidence for motive and opportunity.

IMO, this is going to be the largest hurdle in seeking truth for Rebecca.

I hope in her file that there are some additional good facts.

The helicopter pics of Rebecca on the grass with her legs bent:
The pics were from @ 7 AM, taken by a traffic camera aboard the helicopter. It was live on the 7 AM news. Her legs were already fixated at that time by looking at the pics.

Rigor had already started in her jaw when the EMTs were there shortly before 7 AM.

Tamta wrote:

Wig-o-matic wrote:

Glaring~E-

Thank you for the link!

Lucas' statement that "Referring to the tape residue, he said "...their significance is not clear. Their position and size would have been unusual for evidence of leg binding."

Imo, the first statement was half true about the significance of the tape residue being unclear. It could have also been deduced that the perpetrator/s taped her legs to the white wicker chair.

The second statement was wholly untrue, imo. He did not elaborate on what position and size of tape residue would have been expected if done by a perpetrator.

Do you think there was a perpetrator manual that instructed them how to bind legs to a chair? Of course not. They taped her legs however they could to achieve their goals. Afterwards they took the tape with them.

There was no murder investigation here. Lucas' explanation did not logically or scientifically rule out the possibility that tape residue was put there by the murderer/s. This death should have been ruled undetermined and the case should have remained open. The above is imo. fro:

BBM.

His AR allows for the conclusion of basically an unnatural, unusual and rare but statistically 'possible' and explainable death of hanging by suicide.

IMO, his evidence leads to this conclusion.

I do not think what he is saying is untrue, it is simply that he is opting to operate from the assumption, however as an expert:

that most people who are found to be bound by the lower extremities are usually done so around the ankles and not between the ankles and knees.

If he is trying to discern if she tied herself up or someone else did it with the rope, adhesive residue is not going to be relevant to that specific act.

Upon observing this point the ME has to do some interpretive work. He actually does so, but rather than doing so in a way that may allow for additional insight through speculation that would invite other investigative scenarios, he opts not to and interprets it as unusual so not compelling enough to consider as a hard fact allowing for the conclusion that she was bound by someone else. I mean he is looking at how to illuminate on a hanging, and adhesive residue on the shins is not going to help him form an explanation, so he 'has' to give weight to other obvious variables. He appears to consider it tangential evidence and is not compelled by its proximity to allow it have bearing on his conclusion.

People do it in science ALL of the time and statistically it is not wrong to do so either.

To my mind, it fits perfectly with the balancing act trend of this investigation whereby one side of the adversary system:

LE and the State, appear to be acting more like the Defense, focused on the task of creating reasonable doubt, rather than acting like the Prosecution, with its task of scrutinizing circumstances and evidence for motive and opportunity.

IMO, this is going to be the largest hurdle in seeking truth for Rebecca.

I hope in her file that there are some additional good facts.

Tamata~

I'm sorry. I'm not buying it.

Imo, basic common sense and physics over rule elaborate rhetoric.

Lucas stated with regards to the tape that the..."position and size would have been unusual for evidence of leg binding." Well, her legs were not bound with tape in the end. They were bound with rope.

However, that does not preclude that her legs were not first bound to the chair with tape and then later hogtied with the rope. Apparently, during various stages of her torture her strong legs became a pesky problem for her murders.

Still not getting how Lucas ruled suicide without first completely eliminating homicide as the cause of death. The indicators clearly show that Rebecca did not kill herself.

The above represents my opinion.

Freckles wrote:The helicopter pics of Rebecca on the grass with her legs bent:
The pics were from @ 7 AM, taken by a traffic camera aboard the helicopter. It was live on the 7 AM news. Her legs were already fixated at that time by looking at the pics.

Rigor had already started in her jaw when the EMTs were there shortly before 7 AM.

Hi Freckles - Do you have a link to first photos at 7AM? What I have is first helicopter photos were taken by ABC earliest at 10AM. CBS8 was up flying over the scene at 11AM but did not photograph. They went back up at 4:45PM and photographed. Fox5 also photographed. The time not confirmed, but by examining the shadows coming from the west, would guess mid-afternoon...
http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/photo_gallery/kswb-photos-nude-woman-found-dead-at-mansion-20110715,0,6503880.photogallery

Wig-o-matic wrote:

Tamta wrote:

BBM.

His AR allows for the conclusion of basically an unnatural, unusual and rare but statistically 'possible' and explainable death of hanging by suicide.

IMO, his evidence leads to this conclusion.

I do not think what he is saying is untrue, it is simply that he is opting to operate from the assumption, however as an expert:

that most people who are found to be bound by the lower extremities are usually done so around the ankles and not between the ankles and knees.

If he is trying to discern if she tied herself up or someone else did it with the rope, adhesive residue is not going to be relevant to that specific act.

Upon observing this point the ME has to do some interpretive work. He actually does so, but rather than doing so in a way that may allow for additional insight through speculation that would invite other investigative scenarios, he opts not to and interprets it as unusual so not compelling enough to consider as a hard fact allowing for the conclusion that she was bound by someone else. I mean he is looking at how to illuminate on a hanging, and adhesive residue on the shins is not going to help him form an explanation, so he 'has' to give weight to other obvious variables. He appears to consider it tangential evidence and is not compelled by its proximity to allow it have bearing on his conclusion.

People do it in science ALL of the time and statistically it is not wrong to do so either.

To my mind, it fits perfectly with the balancing act trend of this investigation whereby one side of the adversary system:

LE and the State, appear to be acting more like the Defense, focused on the task of creating reasonable doubt, rather than acting like the Prosecution, with its task of scrutinizing circumstances and evidence for motive and opportunity.

IMO, this is going to be the largest hurdle in seeking truth for Rebecca.

I hope in her file that there are some additional good facts.

Tamata~

I'm sorry. I'm not buying it.

Imo, basic common sense and physics over rule elaborate rhetoric.

Lucas stated with regards to the tape that the..."position and size would have been unusual for evidence of leg binding." Well, her legs were not bound with tape in the end. They were bound with rope.

However, that does not preclude that her legs were not first bound to the chair with tape and then later hogtied with the rope. Apparently, during various stages of her torture her strong legs became a pesky problem for her murders.

Still not getting how Lucas ruled suicide without first completely eliminating homicide as the cause of death. The indicators clearly show that Rebecca did not kill herself.

The above represents my opinion.

-I did not offer my theory.

-Theories on torture appear to require additional facts outside the Lucas AR.

-It is unlikely that he would be charged with professional misconduct in regard to this case.

I have something I want you to take a look at - from a link that was shared from someone else...very interesting. I've tried, but can't get the picture of the "H" bit to post, but you can see it if you open the link below and scroll down to the 4th picture and the paragraph below:

The Great Big Site of Tugboats

http://tugboatsonline.com/boat_yard/rope_boats/hawsertowing.htm

This is the "H" bit on the stern. This is the connection point for the tug and the hawser. The crew make the the rope fast in the manner illustrated and then by taking some turns off, may pay out more hawser to set the tow at a proper distance behind the tug.

Note that this site is about tugboats.

Note the picture of the "H" bit and compare it to the way the rope is configured at Rebecca's ankles:
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15928565/news-8-reenacts-the-coronado-mansion-mystery

Note that this is called "H" bit - making it a "known" knot and making it a "nautical" knot and making it a knot that is used on tugboats.

TY Puzzler! Here's the image:

http://tugboatsonline.com/boat_yard/rope_boats/hawsertowing.htm
From Tugboats Online:
Tugboats that use a rope hawser to make tow are known as rope boats. They are still used today on bays and rivers for towing barges of general cargo. It's a labor intensive towing technique but it is simple to set up a rope boat because no towing winch and the related machinery is necessary.

Eileen_Dover wrote:TY Puzzler! Here's the image:

http://tugboatsonline.com/boat_yard/rope_boats/hawsertowing.htm
From Tugboats Online:
Tugboats that use a rope hawser to make tow are known as rope boats. They are still used today on bays and rivers for towing barges of general cargo. It's a labor intensive towing technique but it is simple to set up a rope boat because no towing winch and the related machinery is necessary.

Eileen - TY for the picture.

It's clear to me, that the knots used on RZ's wrists and ankles are the "H" bit knot and it is a "known" knot, it is a "nautical" knot and it is used on tugboats.

So...what we have are "slip knots" for the noose and bed leg and "H bit knots" for the wrists and ankles.

Come to think of it - everybody knows about "slip knots", so even Gore saying there were no "known knots" is a lie in-and-of-itself (even if he didn't know about the H bit knots).

Eileen_Dover wrote:TY Puzzler! Here's the image:

http://tugboatsonline.com/boat_yard/rope_boats/hawsertowing.htm
From Tugboats Online:
Tugboats that use a rope hawser to make tow are known as rope boats. They are still used today on bays and rivers for towing barges of general cargo. It's a labor intensive towing technique but it is simple to set up a rope boat because no towing winch and the related machinery is necessary.

In regard to rope work, that's what I'd call a significant similarity and one who had ability with such techniques would have the ability to accomplish with relative ease, that is if circumstances permitted or warranted the opportunity,
the binding, suspension, maneuvering by hoisting/dropping of a weighted object such as a an incapacitated human being.

I see the genesis of a persuasive argument....

Dr. Wecht's comments regarding the knots on Websleuths Radio - November 21, 2011

Host: The knots that were used for Rebecca's hand were some sort of nautical?

Dr Wecht: Well I don't know about nautical… they were special knots that's enabled someone to put their hands in and out. And let me give you a comment from an expert who was on the Dr. Drew … Dr. Drew stated to his audience that he had with him, he had consulted with, a rope knot specialist and that that specialist said to Drew that he did not see how anybody could have done this.

Now that is from an expert, and this statement is being make on national television, by a respected presenter, by Dr Drew who is a board certified internists .. let me juxtapose that with something I have been saying all along because getting back to something you said earlier referring to the local officials out there, the sheriff and others pooh-poohing this back then and more recently this past week, trying to say that there is no basis for the criticism so on -- they staged, and I use this word staged deliberately, a presentation, as I understand it, to show that Gee, somebody could do this… To which I have said ever since, repeatedly REPEATEDLY -- Find that somebody can do it comes as no great news or surprise. Houdini did this 70 years ago. I want to know where Rebecca Zahau learned to do these kinds of knots. Where did she acquire this special skill. And let me just take one half minute to give you a wonderful, I think, hypothetical analogy to show you the absurdity of what the officials out there presented.

Let's just say in my hypothetical that Mrs. Jones is found dead at point A and they believe that her estranged husband Mr. Jones murdered her. Mr. Jones can prove he was at point B one mile away, just 5 minutes later, okay? 5 minutes later -- he can prove he was there. So the authorities, in my hypothetical, wanting to show that Mr. Jones could nevertheless have murdered his wife, they bring in a guy who demonstrates for the news media assembled that he can run the mile in 4 min. and therefore they turn to the news media saying “see, somebody can run the mile in 4 min. and therefore Mr. Jones could have been at point A where he murdered his wife.” You like that? Isn’t that beautiful?

Well that's what these people did in this case. We got somebody here who can show you how the knot can be done -- and to this day -- and I’ve hurled this challenge out before, and I’m doing it again tonight, and I'm hoping some of those people – sick offense [inaudible], parasites, self-appointed defenders will be listening to your show -- that one of them will have the decency, the integrity, the courage to answer this: With all their investigations, what did they come up with to show that Rebecca Zahau how could have tied those knots?

http://blogtalk.vo.llnwd.net/o23/show/2/527/show_2527531.mp3

Great Post Puzzler. Looks like they were common knots to someone.

Other than the extremely cramped tight area in which to feed the rope through and between the frame and the post, although laborious, it would be relatively simple for one person to pull the rope through the pre-manufactured loop, as seen in the above photo. With a helper, two people could do it quickly: one lifts the bed, the other slips the already looped rope under the leg, puts the bed back down and presto!


In this case, you will notice an extra knot on the rope on the "slip knot" on the bed post. So why is there this second knot???

Eileen_Dover wrote:

Other than the extremely cramped tight area in which to feed the rope through and between the frame and the post, although laborious, it would be relatively simple for one person to pull the rope through the pre-manufactured loop, as seen in the above photo. With a helper, two people could do it quickly: one lifts the bed, the other slips the already looped rope under the leg, puts the bed back down and presto!


In this case, you will notice an extra knot on the rope on the "slip knot" on the bed post. So why is there this second knot???

Eileen

Extra knots ?

Do they shunt the weight ???

The closer the rope is to the bed leg seems to increase the likely hood they the bed will be pulled a greater distance away from its location.

Eileen_Dover wrote:TY Puzzler! Here's the image:

http://tugboatsonline.com/boat_yard/rope_boats/hawsertowing.htm
From Tugboats Online:
Tugboats that use a rope hawser to make tow are known as rope boats. They are still used today on bays and rivers for towing barges of general cargo. It's a labor intensive towing technique but it is simple to set up a rope boat because no towing winch and the related machinery is necessary.

I see a loop. Familiar territory for some, perhaps.

Eileen_Dover wrote:TY Puzzler! Here's the image:

http://tugboatsonline.com/boat_yard/rope_boats/hawsertowing.htm
From Tugboats Online:
Tugboats that use a rope hawser to make tow are known as rope boats. They are still used today on bays and rivers for towing barges of general cargo. It's a labor intensive towing technique but it is simple to set up a rope boat because no towing winch and the related machinery is necessary.

Can't recall the statements Gore made re the knots. Something about common or difficult ? However, since the photo came from online, one would think one of his DETECTIVES could have figured this out! BTW, Aren't Coronado and San Diego located ON OR NEAR WATER? BIG WATER?

Lash wrote:Respectfully snipped for quote limitation-

Tamta wrote:It was a rhetorical one, not directed at you specifically, more to LE.

Aside from speculating on criminal negligence on the behalf of Rebecca, why would LE be speculating on abuse or another type of homicide by the hand's of someone else?

Is this not standard language for a motion to seal warrants: "We do not wish to divulge the information contained within these documents for fear that the perpetrators can destroy evidence."

What circumstances could have pointed to that, I wonder.

Regarding the legal wording of warrant 41290 used to seize items in Max's death investigation. Eileen and I both posted on this particuliar subject here at the RC on page 4 of this thread.

The warrant used to seize items from the mansion during Rebecca's death investigation used the same legal wording. Warrant 41227, page 11. In my opinion this is commonly used wording in this type of warrant request. Two different warrants, two different detectives, same words.

Warrant 41227 - http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/warrant_41227.pdf

Lash: hi

I understand your opinion... but i find that type of attention to detail to be malpractice.

Did Max's warrants also ask for "an object that could cause an injury like a stab wound?"

They should ALL be FIRED in your scenario

Wig~O ... you intrigue me....

"Tamata~

I'm sorry. I'm not buying it.

Imo, basic common sense and physics over rule elaborate rhetoric.

Lucas stated with regards to the tape that the..."position and size would have been unusual for evidence of leg binding." Well, her legs were not bound with tape in the end. They were bound with rope.

However, that does not preclude that her legs were not first bound to the chair with tape and then later hogtied with the rope. Apparently, during various stages of her torture her strong legs became a pesky problem for her murders.

Still not getting how Lucas ruled suicide without first completely eliminating homicide as the cause of death. The indicators clearly show that Rebecca did not kill herself.

The above represents my opinion."

The problem is that they want to use one type of reasoning to support suicide and then to flip the script and claim the exact opposite in regard to the tape on the legs.

GlaringError wrote:Wig~O ... you intrigue me....

"Tamata~

I'm sorry. I'm not buying it.

Imo, basic common sense and physics over rule elaborate rhetoric.

Lucas stated with regards to the tape that the..."position and size would have been unusual for evidence of leg binding." Well, her legs were not bound with tape in the end. They were bound with rope.

However, that does not preclude that her legs were not first bound to the chair with tape and then later hogtied with the rope. Apparently, during various stages of her torture her strong legs became a pesky problem for her murders.

Still not getting how Lucas ruled suicide without first completely eliminating homicide as the cause of death. The indicators clearly show that Rebecca did not kill herself.

The above represents my opinion."

The problem is that they want to use one type of reasoning to support suicide and then to flip the script and claim the exact opposite in regard to the tape on the legs.

Imo, Rebecca was murdered as a ritual sacrifice. Read the literature. She was a classic sacrificial scapegoat victim.

The sacrificial scapegoat victim is usually unaware of their fate as they are treated to a life of wealth and luxury prior to the sacrifice. There is often a purifying cleansing done with water prior to the murder. The victim is often anointed with oil but in this case black paint was used. Her hands were bound and her legs were taped to the chair prior being strangled to death. One of the paint brush handles may have been used to fashion a garrote.

That she may have been hogtied like an animal afterwards appears to be symbolic as well.

Please view the link below for information on garrote execution. Note the position of the victim's knees in the illustrations provided. All the above is just my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote

Wig-o-matic wrote:

GlaringError wrote:Wig~O ... you intrigue me....

"Tamata~

I'm sorry. I'm not buying it.

Imo, basic common sense and physics over rule elaborate rhetoric.

Lucas stated with regards to the tape that the..."position and size would have been unusual for evidence of leg binding." Well, her legs were not bound with tape in the end. They were bound with rope.

However, that does not preclude that her legs were not first bound to the chair with tape and then later hogtied with the rope. Apparently, during various stages of her torture her strong legs became a pesky problem for her murders.

Still not getting how Lucas ruled suicide without first completely eliminating homicide as the cause of death. The indicators clearly show that Rebecca did not kill herself.

The above represents my opinion."

The problem is that they want to use one type of reasoning to support suicide and then to flip the script and claim the exact opposite in regard to the tape on the legs.

Imo, Rebecca was murdered in a ritualistic and sacrificial manner. Read the literature. She was a classic scapegoat sacrificial victim.

The sacrificial victim is often unaware of their fate as they are treated to a life of wealth and luxury prior to the sacrifice. There is often a cleansing with water to first purify the sacrifice and strangulation is often the mode of death.

That she bound like an animal appears to be symbolic as well.

All the above is just my opinion.

So, are we supposed to then consider that there is some religious, spiritual, or ethical intention behind this crime and thus justification for her death?

Tamta wrote:

Wig-o-matic wrote:

Imo, Rebecca was murdered in a ritualistic and sacrificial manner. Read the literature. She was a classic scapegoat sacrificial victim.

The sacrificial victim is often unaware of their fate as they are treated to a life of wealth and luxury prior to the sacrifice. There is often a cleansing with water to first purify the sacrifice and strangulation is often the mode of death.

That she bound like an animal appears to be symbolic as well.

All the above is just my opinion.

So, are we supposed to then consider that there is some religious, spiritual, or ethical intention behind this crime and thus justification for her death?

Tamata~

Consider what you please.

Maurice Godwin is a renowned and seasoned criminal investigator with his own consultancy firm. Imo, he is very knowledgeable and a credible source for information.

For what ever reason my previous post sent before I completed it. If you want you can read the complete post below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Imo, Rebecca was murdered as a ritual sacrifice. Read the literature. She was a classic sacrificial scapegoat victim.

The sacrificial scapegoat victim is usually unaware of their fate as they are treated to a life of wealth and luxury prior to the sacrifice. There is often a purifying cleansing done with water prior to the murder. The victim is often anointed with oil but in this case black paint was used. Her hands were bound and her legs were taped to the chair prior being strangled to death. One of the paint brush handles may have been used to fashion a garrote.

That she may have been hogtied like an animal afterwards appears to be symbolic as well.

Please view the link below for information on garrote execution. Note the position of the victim's knees in the illustrations provided. All the above is just my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote

GlaringError wrote:

Lash wrote:Respectfully snipped for quote limitation-


Regarding the legal wording of warrant 41290 used to seize items in Max's death investigation. Eileen and I both posted on this particuliar subject here at the RC on page 4 of this thread.

The warrant used to seize items from the mansion during Rebecca's death investigation used the same legal wording. Warrant 41227, page 11. In my opinion this is commonly used wording in this type of warrant request. Two different warrants, two different detectives, same words.

Warrant 41227 - http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/warrant_41227.pdf

Lash: hi

I understand your opinion... but i find that type of attention to detail to be malpractice.

Did Max's warrants also ask for "an object that could cause an injury like a stab wound?"

They should ALL be FIRED in your scenario

I cannot disagree with some of your suggestions, had I been scrutinizing the entire warrant. However, I was not. I am only pointing to a specific portion of the warrant. The original post by Wig-O-Matic began discussing the following wording.

"We do not wish to divulge the information contained within these documents for fear that the perpetrators can destroy evidence."

It is my opinion this specific choice of wording is commonly used when requesting a motion to seal a warrant. I personally do not believe it can be used to deduce who a detective believes may or may not be a perpetrator.

I believe a garrote style execution was done in the wicker chair. This would have caused the abrasions to Rebecca's back and buttock and the back of her arms...all areas that would come into contact with the chair.

As the murderer pressed his knee into the back of the chair when he turned the paint brush handle to tighten the garrote the rough surface of wicker chair came into forceful contact with Rebecca's back, buttocks and posterior arms, shoulder and neck areas.

The majority of the abrasions and contusions were found on Rebecca's back yet her neck bones were crushed in the front. This appears to be due to a possible garrote execution while in the wicker chair.

She may have been hogtied and thrown over the balcony afterwards. That would account for the extra footprints on the balcony and the minor dust disturbance. It would also account for the torn strap muscles.

After throwing her over the murderer/s closed the door, turned out the lights and did not bother to right the over turned chair.

All of the above is only my opinion.

Adam claimed that he ran to the main house and retrieved a kitchen knife which he used to cut Rebecca down. If Adam had access to the main house then he could have also done the 3AM computer searches for pictures of bound sexy Asian women.

Also, the unexpected and unusual vocalizations (Ah,ah,ah...incrementally louder and louder in volume) that Adam made during the 911 call fit in with the meme that he watched Iphone porn and masturbated the night of Rebecca's death. The above is only my opinion.

Eileen_Dover wrote:

Other than the extremely cramped tight area in which to feed the rope through and between the frame and the post, although laborious, it would be relatively simple for one person to pull the rope through the pre-manufactured loop, as seen in the above photo. With a helper, two people could do it quickly: one lifts the bed, the other slips the already looped rope under the leg, puts the bed back down and presto!


In this case, you will notice an extra knot on the rope on the "slip knot" on the bed post. So why is there this second knot???

Does anyone know if a tugboat worker would commonly tie extra knots when docking a boat? Either they have a specific purpose or were done automatically by someone.

Eileen - TY

That's why we keep looking at these things over-and-over.

Each time we find something not found before.

This is the first time I've realized there is an "extra/second knot" on the bed leg.

Puzzler wrote:Eileen - TY

That's why we keep looking at these things over-and-over.

Each time we find something not found before.

This is the first time I've realized there is an "extra/second knot" on the bed leg.

Puzzler-

There are 2 extra knots. I'm wondering if their purpose is to provide traction or a safety stop that would keep the slip knot from moving. If one were docking a boat and the slip knot moved so that the surrounding loop became much larger then the rope to the boat would shorten possibly causing the boat to hit the dock and become damaged. I'm guessing now and don't really know.

is that extra knot secured to something? Like that bar on the bottom?

I have to admit, we looked at that bed and knot a million times and never saw that extra knot. I wish we had our very first picture of this. I can't tell if it is secured to anything else. It doesn't look like it to me. MOO

I only see one "extra knot"...the rope is tied around an odd shape of the bed leg/frame and because of that "maybe" an extra knot was tied to keep the rope in place like the person tying the rope wanted it to be.

But, if so, that means someone with "real knowledge" of ropes would be the one making that knot.

Like I've said before...it seems like a knowledgeable person just "automatically" tied those knots for the desired effect.

Sort of like tying your shoelaces - you don't think about it, you just do it.

This was done by someone with knowledge of roping - it's a deliberate knot.

Puzzler wrote:I only see one "extra knot"...the rope is tied around an odd shape of the bed leg/frame and because of that "maybe" an extra knot was tied to keep the rope in place like the person tying the rope wanted it to be.

But, if so, that means someone with "real knowledge" of ropes would be the one making that knot.

Like I've said before...it seems like a knowledgeable person just "automatically" tied those knots for the desired effect.

Sort of like tying your shoelaces - you don't think about it, you just do it.

This was done by someone with knowledge of roping - it's a deliberate knot.

By the end of today I'm determined to post at least one link by LE referring to these knots as 'precision' knots.

I know I've seen it.

Wig-o-matic~

You bring up some good points and possibilities.

All comes down to the same thing, this wasn't a suicide.

Wig-o-matic wrote:

Imo, Rebecca was murdered as a ritual sacrifice. Read the literature. She was a classic sacrificial scapegoat victim.

The sacrificial scapegoat victim is usually unaware of their fate as they are treated to a life of wealth and luxury prior to the sacrifice. There is often a purifying cleansing done with water prior to the murder. The victim is often anointed with oil but in this case black paint was used. Her hands were bound and her legs were taped to the chair prior being strangled to death. One of the paint brush handles may have been used to fashion a garrote.

That she may have been hogtied like an animal afterwards appears to be symbolic as well.

Please view the link below for information on garrote execution. Note the position of the victim's knees in the illustrations provided. All the above is just my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote

Happy Friday, Wig~0~Matic...

Can you please give me the details of how you came to this conclusion, in full? I am not asking this in jest or in order to be slyly rude.... I am trying to understand how you arrived at that conclusion. The garrote possibility is interesting. But what do you use, other than a wikipedia garotte citation, to determine in your mind that this is a ritualistic murder?

Trying to figure out if this is a diversion tactic, to be honest.

Tamta - Your 1 post above where you say:
' LE is taking a position more like the Defense dealing
with reasonable doubt ...' *
OUTSTANDING!
You hit upon something here that I sensed, but failed to
articulate. Almost like they have assumed the same position
that a Defense Attorney would.

Many times LE is scorned for being over zealous in investigating the Family(ie LisaIrwin case)
This case seems to be OPPOSITE?
Very strange indeed.

* Forgive me for paraphrasing. Hopefully I got the gist right

Interesting Bio on William Gore Sr. (oops, shoulda said obituary)

http://www.sdpolicemuseum.com/William-Gore.html

glazier wrote:Tamta - Your 1 post above where you say:
' LE is taking a position more like the Defense dealing
with reasonable doubt ...' *
OUTSTANDING!
You hit upon something here that I sensed, but failed to
articulate. Almost like they have assumed the same position
that a Defense Attorney would.

Many times LE is scorned for being over zealous in investigating the Family(ie LisaIrwin case)
This case seems to be OPPOSITE?
Very strange indeed.

* Forgive me for paraphrasing. Hopefully I got the gist right

That tells you who has been running the investigation- LAWYERS.

I also think it looks like trial case based on a very weak theory where one side simply refuses to put forth any evidence yet just sits and waits for their turn at cross examination, so they can throw around malleable facts, blatant inaccuracies or factual insufficiencies, and gross speculations.

Who is more talented at disrespecting and despising the law more than anyone else?
LAWYERS.

(Disclaimer: In case my friends find out I wrote that! That can also be said with admiration as well, when that talent is put forth towards a greater good.)

Tamta wrote:

Eileen_Dover wrote:

Other than the extremely cramped tight area in which to feed the rope through and between the frame and the post, although laborious, it would be relatively simple for one person to pull the rope through the pre-manufactured loop, as seen in the above photo. With a helper, two people could do it quickly: one lifts the bed, the other slips the already looped rope under the leg, puts the bed back down and presto!


In this case, you will notice an extra knot on the rope on the "slip knot" on the bed post. So why is there this second knot???

Eileen

Extra knots ?

Do they shunt the weight ???

The closer the rope is to the bed leg seems to increase the likely hood they the bed will be pulled a greater distance away from its location.

I don't really see a tied slip knot. The rope is pulled through the manufactured loop. Why are there 2 purple arrows in the picture each pointing to a knot? Both those knots were tied into to the rope and neither function as slip knots. The manufactured loop functions as a large loop type slip for the rope. The link posted below shows how to tie a slip knot.

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Tie-a-Slip-Knot/step7/null/

Wig-o-matic wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Eileen

Extra knots ?

Do they shunt the weight ???

The closer the rope is to the bed leg seems to increase the likely hood they the bed will be pulled a greater distance away from its location.

I don't really see a tied slip knot. The rope is pulled through the manufactured loop. Why are there 2 purple arrows in the picture each pointing to a knot? Both those knots were tied into to the rope and neither function as slip knots. The manufactured loop functions as a large loop type slip for the rope. The link posted below shows how to tie a slip knot.

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Tie-a-Slip-Knot/step7/null/

BBM... wasn't sure if you were being facetious. Were you?

I think someone put the arrows in to point out extraneous knots in the slip knot loop. Are those extra knots manufactured into the rope. they look the perfect length from eachother that they become hand holds for someone holding the rope during water sport fun?

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