George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Lash wrote:Animation of Kel Tec PF9 Pistol Function -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIDoUu8lDGU

Thanks Lash! Okay, here I go again. Lash, Deb, KZ or other gun people - clarify this for me. We discussed recoil earlier - now I am talking about the slide mechanism of the gun as it reloads the next round. When watching the HausofGuns video, you can't see the slide come back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVzqnxKfZ74&feature=related
But when you watch the illustration shown by Lash's video, it shows that the slide mechanism slides back a considerable distance from the gun after each shot.

Could this slide mechanism have hit GZ in the nose, causing his injuries? It doesn't sound reasonable under normal circumstances, but we don't know how close the gun was to GZ's face when he fired given that Trayvon was supposedly on top of him and there were only a matter of inches between them.

Lash wrote:Animation of Kel Tec PF9 Pistol Function -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIDoUu8lDGU

There are 3 things I see in this great video:

1. Possibility for malfunction
2. Possibility for human intervention influence weapon functioning
3. Possibility of removing magazine easily and replacing it quickly (with a new one)

CherokeeNative wrote:Thanks Twinkle. I truly appreciate you being candid with me and sharing your thoughts on this, although you didn't have to. You make some good points and I completely understand you and others wanting more information before settling in on what your verdict would be. As you can probably tell, I am the type of person that forms an early opinion and takes a stance on that opinion. If information comes forward down the line that changes that opinion, I am movable, down to the point of making a full turn about. It's one of those hot or cold things - I don't know why, but that is my nature. Fortunately, I have found that I usually don't change my mind. At this point, I would have absolutely no problem convicting GZ of Murder2. So if it were just you and I, we would hang the jury. Again, thanks for going along with my questions and satisfying my curiosity.

Too funny! I guess we would be the prosecutor's worst nightmare! I was going to say the defense too, but then I realized MOM might like a hung jury.

I really enjoy everything you bring to the discussion here, and appreciate your capacity to receive new information, absorb it, and adjust your theory accordingly. It's interesting how we all approach these things so differently; the world would be a pretty boring place if we all saw things exactly the same way and had the exact same opinions.

http://marinadedave.com/journal/2012/5/21/sanford-police-release-zimmerman-timeline.html

The Orlando Sentinel published a precise timeline of events leading up to Trayvon Martin’s death. Released with the document dump last week, it shows what George Zimmerman doing just prior to the shooting. In less than two minutes from the time Zimmerman ended his call with the dispatcher, Trayvon was shot dead.

Tamta wrote:

Lash wrote:Deb or anyone... I don't have my posts on THM to refer back to (sad face) am I correct that the gun did not chamber another round...the magazine was found full?

Yes Lash.
The gun was recovered with a full magazine

Minus one round. It is a 7+1 clip and there was a round in the chamber. Semi=autos do that. It is in a detective report somewhere...I think by Serino.

CherokeeNative wrote:

Tamta wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

Tamta wrote:I know this is snipped from a blog, but I am posting this because of the detail regarding the weapon. It is not a rumor nor what it seems a rumor based observation but an observation of an 'expert':

BBM

The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism.


Massad's So What:
This would indicate, as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired. This would clearly change the shape of the case. But – WE DON’T KNOW YET.



http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2012/03/23/george-zimmerman-and-trayvon-martin-what-we-dont-know/

I don't know enough about guns, so I will just ask the question and hope that those who are familiar with guns and in particular this gun will know the answer. In the HausofGuns video, the subject discusses misfires by the KelTec PF9, so I don't know if this is the same thing as being discussed above -- but it is where he is shooting the gun and the next round fails to load and does not fire - if so, it appears that this gun does that often. I have published the link up thread. Also, IIRC, didn't the discovery show that Trayvon's DNA was not on the gun?

Yes to the DNA on the gun.
Masaad asked this question pre-discovery obviously.
(By the way this guy runs a very sensible blog! I just discovered it.)j

However I have not had the time to watch that video but hope to later.
A quick scan of other gun blogs regarding this weapon (lol that i ever read any)
report some dissatisfaction with this gun's performance, but I am not sure if IIRC as to any comments that you made about it.)

In the video, the guy says that people have reported that it misfires (or whatever he calls it) and that he hasn't had that problem, and the next thing, when he goes to shoot, he pops off a couple rounds and it misfires... LOL Whether this is the same as failing to "cycle a fresh round" or not, I don't know but sounds like it. I believe Deb and KZ have experience with guns so hopefully they will weigh in and clear that up for us.

The bolded part is not correct. That handgun ejected the shell casing after firing and automatically loaded its next round. Serino used a metal detector to locate the casing.

The kind of weapon that doesn't eject its casing is a revolver. It will hold the casing after it has been fired.

Lash wrote:Animation of Kel Tec PF9 Pistol Function -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIDoUu8lDGU

Evidence Photo

DebFrmHell wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Lash wrote:Deb or anyone... I don't have my posts on THM to refer back to (sad face) am I correct that the gun did not chamber another round...the magazine was found full?

Yes Lash.
The gun was recovered with a full magazine

Minus one round. It is a 7+1 clip and there was a round in the chamber. Semi=autos do that. It is in a detective report somewhere...I think by Serino.

I am sorry but I thought that the only bullet missing was the one in the chamber.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Lash wrote:Animation of Kel Tec PF9 Pistol Function -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIDoUu8lDGU

Evidence Photo

Alessandra,

One full magazine and one round from the chamber?

Tamta wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Lash wrote:Deb or anyone... I don't have my posts on THM to refer back to (sad face) am I correct that the gun did not chamber another round...the magazine was found full?

Yes Lash.
The gun was recovered with a full magazine

Minus one round. It is a 7+1 clip and there was a round in the chamber. Semi=autos do that. It is in a detective report somewhere...I think by Serino.

I am sorry but I thought that the only bullet missing was the one in the chamber.

LOL! I didn't believe it held 8 rounds. I thought it was a 6+1. I was all A-HA! Gotcha! I had to google to verify.

A-ha became.... I can be such a goober.

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Lash wrote:Animation of Kel Tec PF9 Pistol Function -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIDoUu8lDGU

Evidence Photo

Alessandra,

One full magazine and one round from the chamber?

According to the report, only the chambered round was fired.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Lash wrote:Animation of Kel Tec PF9 Pistol Function -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIDoUu8lDGU

Evidence Photo

Alessandra,

One full magazine and one round from the chamber?

According to the report, only the chambered round was fired.

Ok. Thought so.

However that gun should have released a round from the magazine after the chamber was emptied?

I heard about this in the media but I hadn't listened to the police interview until now. An ex-coworker had filed a complaint with HR re harassment on the job by George Zimmerman. This guy is middle eastern and was new on the job. George punked him one night by asking him to do a lot of extra work like straightening chairs and emptying trash with an explanation of that's how we close the office. The next day he laughing and bragging about it in front of a clique of friends - calling him an f-- ing moron to his face. Also used a fake middle eastern accent when he walked into the lunch room, comments of bombing, killing your family. This guy was patient for weeks before he said something.

Important part ** When management and HR spoke with George about the harassment, this guy said that George was very smooth and convincing during questioning, but behind the scenes he has junior high/high school mentality. **

** Second important part - George was supposedly fired for complaining to HR too much. He was always on the phone complaint that this and that was being done wrong, complaints against the General Manager, etc. HR told this guy they had never received so many complaints before from one person before.

My comments - all of these sour grapes mean not a whole lot unless they help to paint a clearer picture of how George ticks. Remember how rehearsed and calm George was on the stand at the bond hearing...until the mention of the defamatory text messages?! Then George was wide eyed an speechless for a moment. And all of the numerous complaints to HR sound a lot like all of the 911 calls he has made over the years. He just traded one vice (HR) for another (local police office). I bet his last employer was contacted for comment on his behavior.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/18/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-evidence_n_1528268.html?ref=trayvon-martin

Question. Does anyone know if the police had sirens on in route?

http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/DorivalFDLE03192012.wav
--audio interview w/ officer wendy dorival

--she explains the NW program as well as the meeting/presentation etc. she did w/ the Retreat at Twin Lakes.

http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/state/more-evidence-in-the-george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-case-released-to-the-public
Evidence in the George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin case released to the public

Audio evidence
--48 audio interviews here, right hand side of page.

Sherry wrote:

Sherry

love your avatar!

Iz can has cheezburger? (My favorite lol cat.)

Porky wrote:Question. Does anyone know if the police had sirens on in route?

Hi Porky!

When responding to the non-911 they were probably running lights only and maybe not even that much. There was no pressure to be there.

After the reports of shots fired they definitely would be lights and sirens.

They have certain response code that dictate lights or lights and sirens. I am not familiar with all that it entails so this is totally, IMO.

Porky wrote:Question. Does anyone know if the police had sirens on in route?

IIRC, in one of the witness statements in that 183-page pdf, one of the witnesses reports hearing sirens toward the end of his/her report.

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Lash wrote:Animation of Kel Tec PF9 Pistol Function -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIDoUu8lDGU

Evidence Photo

Alessandra,

One full magazine and one round from the chamber?

According to the report, only the chambered round was fired.

Ok. Thought so.

However that gun should have released a round from the magazine after the chamber was emptied?

"A semi-automatic pistol (technically both a revolver and a semi-automatic are pistols but modern terminology has separated the revolver from the pistol) is magazine-fed vertically through a hollow space in the “grip” (the part you hold onto when firing) of the gun.

The device that feeds ammunition into the chamber of the gun is called a “magazine.” A coiled spring inside the magazine pushes the cartridges upward as each bullet is fired and the spent casing is ejected from the “ejection port” (a rectangular hole) at the top of the slide.

The “action” (the mechanism in the interior of the gun) cycles after firing and ejecting the spent cartridge. The action of the slide slapping backwards resets the external or internal hammer (or striker), readying the pistol to fire again. Although some pistols are referred to as “single action” that does not mean that you have to rack the slide each time you fire the gun. It simply refers to the function of the trigger mechanism."

~~~~~~

You can find the report about the pistol on page 120 and page 121 of the discovery documents:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Zimmerman_Discovery.pdf

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Tamta wrote:

"A semi-automatic pistol (technically both a revolver and a semi-automatic are pistols but modern terminology has separated the revolver from the pistol) is magazine-fed vertically through a hollow space in the “grip” (the part you hold onto when firing) of the gun.

The device that feeds ammunition into the chamber of the gun is called a “magazine.” A coiled spring inside the magazine pushes the cartridges upward as each bullet is fired and the spent casing is ejected from the “ejection port” (a rectangular hole) at the top of the slide.

The “action” (the mechanism in the interior of the gun) cycles after firing and ejecting the spent cartridge. The action of the slide slapping backwards resets the external or internal hammer (or striker), readying the pistol to fire again. Although some pistols are referred to as “single action” that does not mean that you have to rack the slide each time you fire the gun. It simply refers to the function of the trigger mechanism."

~~~~~~

You can find the report about the pistol on page 120 and page 121 of the discovery documents:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Zimmerman_Discovery.pdf

Thank you!

Why would the chamber have been empty?

From what I understand it should not have been after a shot was fired, one casing recovered, and the magazine was full?

Isn't it strange?

When you load a semi-automatic you fill the clip and insert it. You rack a bullet into the chamber then release the clip to replace that bullet for a full magazine with one in the chamber.

7(for the clip) and 1 in the chanber. 7+1.

There is some debate as to whether that handgun will hold 8 rounds. I only watched a video clip of the KelTec and freely admit that I have never fired one. IMO, It is a cheap peice of crap.

Just the trigger pull alone of 4.5lbs is enough to keep me away. Not to mention that there is no active safety. It relies on its double action trigger and weight of finger pull.

I prefer Smith and Wesson.

One thing I would like people to note is that holster. It has a clip on the side, not unlike the old cell phone carriers for a visual, and attachs to the inside of your pants. There is no restraining strap to keep the gun in place. You grab the grip and pull it out. No deterents to slow you down.

I have seen a better picture of it somewhere that will make it clearer.

CherokeeNative wrote:

If there was no DNA under Trayvon's nails, then how did those scratches get there? He has one on the side of his head/face too (pix by Deb). Makes me wonder if he crashed and fell into an A/C unit and bushes and got all of those nicks and cuts. Broken nose from Trayvon punching him, okay - but that wouldn't make the scratches - right?

--i agree and think it's quite possible that while he was skulking around the building that he slipped on the wet grass and scratched his face on a bush or a branch.

--i'm not sure that trayvon gave him the (likely) broken nose either.it takes quite a hard punch to break a nose and yet trayvon has NO swelling or so much as one bruise on either of his hands. just the small 1/8" X 1/4" abrasion on one finger.

--the injuries to the back of the head don't look like it was from a repeated bashing on the sidewalk---the one (to the right of the top of the main strip of dried blood) looks like his head hit something that had a "shape" to it, and not a flat piece of concrete.

http://www.wesh.com/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/31093645/detail.html#ixzz1vZKHaSRj
State Says Trayvon Martin Was Profiled

Former prosecutor Jeff Deen said the state can build a three-pronged argument based on profiling using Zimmerman's own statements and the statements Trayvon Martin made to a girlfriend he was talking to on the phone.
As Zimmerman spoke to a police dispatcher the night of Martin's death he made a statement officials argue is profiling.

"God, these (expletive), they always get away," said Zimmerman to the 911 operator.
Deen said this statement shows Zimmerman was agitated and the state could argue Zimmerman was profiling Martin as a thug.
~~~~~~~~~~~

Based on profiling, Deen said, Zimmerman got out of his car and in essence took the fight to Martin.

Prosecutors can make a case based on that information that the wounds Zimmerman suffered came from a fight he started, then was losing and reacted in the heat of the moment by pulling out his gun.

"If I'm the state I say, 'Look he was getting pummeled and out of anger or in the heat of the moment he fired that fatal shot,'" said Deen. "That's second-degree murder."

--more@link--

ellejay wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

If there was no DNA under Trayvon's nails, then how did those scratches get there? He has one on the side of his head/face too (pix by Deb). Makes me wonder if he crashed and fell into an A/C unit and bushes and got all of those nicks and cuts. Broken nose from Trayvon punching him, okay - but that wouldn't make the scratches - right?

--i agree and think it's quite possible that while he was skulking around the building that he slipped on the wet grass and scratched his face on a bush or a branch.

--i'm not sure that trayvon gave him the (likely) broken nose either.it takes quite a hard punch to break a nose and yet trayvon has NO swelling or so much as one bruise on either of his hands. just the small 1/8" X 1/4" abrasion on one finger.

--the injuries to the back of the head don't look like it was from a repeated bashing on the sidewalk---the one (to the right of the top of the main strip of dried blood) looks like his head hit something that had a "shape" to it, and not a flat piece of concrete.

And, on the cuffs of Trayvon's sweatshirt they didn't find DNA other than Trayvon's.

DebFrmHell wrote:When you load a semi-automatic you fill the clip and insert it. You rack a bullet into the chamber then release the clip to replace that bullet for a full magazine with one in the chamber.

7(for the clip) and 1 in the chanber. 7+1.

There is some debate as to whether that handgun will hold 8 rounds. I only watched a video clip of the KelTec and freely admit that I have never fired one. IMO, It is a cheap peice of crap.

Just the trigger pull alone of 4.5lbs is enough to keep me away. Not to mention that there is no active safety. It relies on its double action trigger and weight of finger pull.

I prefer Smith and Wesson.

One thing I would like people to note is that holster. It has a clip on the side, not unlike the old cell phone carriers for a visual, and attachs to the inside of your pants. There is no restraining strap to keep the gun in place. You grab the grip and pull it out. No deterents to slow you down.

I have seen a better picture of it somewhere that will make it clearer.

If Martin would have been on top of Zimmerman, on his knees, with one leg on each side of his body (straddling him), allegedly punching him on the face, Zimmerman wouldn't have been able to reach his gun because it would have been underneath Trayvon's thigh.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:When you load a semi-automatic you fill the clip and insert it. You rack a bullet into the chamber then release the clip to replace that bullet for a full magazine with one in the chamber.

7(for the clip) and 1 in the chanber. 7+1.

There is some debate as to whether that handgun will hold 8 rounds. I only watched a video clip of the KelTec and freely admit that I have never fired one. IMO, It is a cheap peice of crap.

Just the trigger pull alone of 4.5lbs is enough to keep me away. Not to mention that there is no active safety. It relies on its double action trigger and weight of finger pull.

I prefer Smith and Wesson.

One thing I would like people to note is that holster. It has a clip on the side, not unlike the old cell phone carriers for a visual, and attachs to the inside of your pants. There is no restraining strap to keep the gun in place. You grab the grip and pull it out. No deterents to slow you down.

I have seen a better picture of it somewhere that will make it clearer.

If Martin would have been on top of Zimmerman, on his knees, with one leg on each side of his body (straddling him), allegedly punching him on the face, Zimmerman wouldn't have been able to reach his gun because it would have been underneath Trayvon's thigh.

BBM

Exactly.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/

BBM

The PF-9 is a semi-automatic, locked breech pistol, chambered for the 9mm Luger cartridge. It has been developed from our highly successful P-11 and P-3AT pistols with maximum concealability in mind. The PF-9 has a single stack magazine holding 7 rounds. It is one of the lightest and flattest 9 mm ever made. Firing mechanism is Double-Action Only with an automatic hammer block safety.

DebFrmHell wrote:

Porky wrote:Question. Does anyone know if the police had sirens on in route?

Hi Porky!

When responding to the non-911 they were probably running lights only and maybe not even that much. There was no pressure to be there.

After the reports of shots fired they definitely would be lights and sirens.

They have certain response code that dictate lights or lights and sirens. I am not familiar with all that it entails so this is totally, IMO.

Read in the Evidence reports PD and ambulance were both running with sirens and lights. They actually made good time. (Because they were there so quickly I have to believe the PD was en-route BEFORE Trayvon was shot. Maybe they were running silent before that but were en-route. Then when 911 calls started pouring in, the sirens and lights were turned on.) Still early i the evening so noise ordinances might not apply.

Thanks for the info on the fingernail DNA, Deb.

CN- I, too, have wondered if the vertical gash on the back of GZ' head may have come from an AC unit or some other item in the vicinity. It was estimated to be 1 inch long and 1/2 inch wide.

Page 124: GSR on GZ' upper clothing indicates ONLY one particle was found.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

Video recap
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/trayvon-martin-shooting-video-photos-released-16372935?tab=9482930§ion=1206853&playlist=1363340

CherokeeNative wrote:Gizzmo - you obviously have experience with guns. I have absolutely none - the video link is ALL I know. Because I watched this video to see if by chance the slide part of the gun could have hit GZ in the nose and that is how he got those injuries - but alas, it doesn't appear so.

In my much younger years I was a sharp shooter. I had many guns. I have since disposed of all but one due to my age. I wouldn't want them getting in the wrong hands if anything should happen to me. Infact I gave strict orders to my granddaughter to turn it into the police when I do leave this world. Guns are nothing to have hanging around. And although I believe in gun laws, I do not stand by the SYG law. It's ludicrous.

Stolat wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Stolat wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

Puzzler wrote:I've put some thought into how I'd feel if someone was on top of me, hitting me, while I was down on the ground and my nose was broken (luckily, I've not experienced that, but I do understand that it is painful) and bashing my head against concrete or against anything (I do know how painful a hit to the head is and I do know that hits to the head can result in death up to hours later)...so, if all of that were happening to me at one time, I do believe that I would be "afraid".

I believe that is true that we would all be afraid - but if your predictament was a result of your own actions - wouldn't you have yelled out to Trayvon that you were a NWC and had a gun instead of screaming for help from anyone that might just happen to hear you and before reaching for the gun and pulling the trigger? I kind of liken the situation to a cornered wild animal....you've tracked this animal until it feels cornered and has no choice but to lash out in self-preservation. Now it's up to you to de-esculate the situation.

And lets face it, there is no way Zimmerman would have followed, stalked and chased Trayvon who was 6'2" if it wasn't that he had a gun. Zimmerman does not strike me a man who would be that brave especially at night when there would be no one around to save him.

If he wants people to believe it was him screaming like that while holding a gun, how can he expect people to believe that he didn't have the gun out and ready? Anyone with a scream like that would be too scared to follow a big guy thru a complex. If Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon and was afraid to give his address to the 911 operator in case he was near, than there is NO way that Zimmerman didn't have his gun in hand while looking. He would not have wanted Trayvon to grab him from behind or something like that. Zimmerman had to have had his gun in hand when he approached Trayvon. And he had to have used two (2) hands to inject a bullit in the chamber. With a regular gun you just cock it, but with the type of gun that Zimmerman had you have to slide the top back to load it, so he had to have had both hands free prior to shooting Trayvon.

Did he have to pull the slide? I thought with the Kel-tec he had, the slide was automatic with the pull of the trigger (?)...

From the picture that I seen of the gun it appears that it has to be slid back, I may be wrong, but that's how it appears.

According to this, no slide required:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/kel-tec_PF-9.htm

"Finally, the PF-9 is a relatively simple pistol. It features Double Action Only (DAO) operation and there are few controls to remember. If one carries it with a round in the chamber, all you have to do is draw, aim and pull the trigger. Reloading is as simple as pushing the magazine release button, slamming home a spare magazine (which Kel-Tec sells but does not furnish with the gun), pressing the slide release and pulling the trigger. One reason so many people like revolvers for CCW is their ease of use. The PF-9 is just as easy to use. Cleaning and maintenance is similarly simple."

Thanks Stolat, I really wasn't familiar with them. I never owned a 9mm, I was just under the assumption.

[quote="CherokeeNative"]

Freckles wrote:CN-
If I was GZ and TM had the advantage over me, I would not have been calling, "Help me!" I would have had my gun in my hand as soon as I entered the dark walkway area; IF I had been suddenly set upon, I would have yelled, "Stop! Please stop! I have a gun and will shoot!"

Unlike what GZ reports,
I would not have been asking, "What are you doing here?" as I would already be in the "surprise" confrontation.

What is bad scripting is the reported comments of TM after GZ has shot him. The bullet instantly ended his life.There was no time left on the meter to call out some absurd comment about GZ "winning" pr whatever that goofy comment was.

You and I are on the same wave length - I believe GZ had his gun drawn at the time he went between those townhomes. And I do not believe the hollywood script that GZ gave for what Trayvon supposedly said. And I whole heartedly agree that instead of whining and crying that you hear in the tape, I would have been announcing I have my gun and about to use it. That's why I am sure it was not GZ crying for help - that was Trayvon. Now GZ may not have had the gun "in hand" at the time he took chase of Trayvon, and if he didn't, it had to be in his coat pocket or somewhere easily accessible...not in its holster. In fact, what is it they say that liars usually add a little truth to their story? Well, I would bet that where GZ states that he was reaching for his cellphone, he was really reaching for his weapon.

ETA: I worded that weird. I mean it doesn't make sense that the whining and crying that we hear on the tape would be GZ - he had the gun. And even if I were him I would have been yelling I have a gun....[/quote]

Exactly...Once someone sees a gun they will freeze. There would be no need to shoot it. It doesn't take a rocket scientists to know that you cannot outrun a bullit. Just the sight of a gun being pointed at you is enough. There would have been NO reason for Zimmerman to be screaming seeing as he was the one with the gun. And it doesn't make sense either, that the screaming stopped instantly upon the shot being fired. If it were Zimmerman screaming, he would have continued screaming if just for a second or two. JMO

Tamta wrote:

Lash wrote:Deb or anyone... I don't have my posts on THM to refer back to (sad face) am I correct that the gun did not chamber another round...the magazine was found full?

Yes Lash.
The gun was recovered with a full magazine

It was also stated that the bullit was a "hollow point", these bulits were against the law at one time. They are called "people killers". They are not meant to just wound someone, they open like a butterfly. Instant death to the receiver.

The mere fact that a bullit was used like this means that Zimmerman had all intentions of killing someone if used.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:When you load a semi-automatic you fill the clip and insert it. You rack a bullet into the chamber then release the clip to replace that bullet for a full magazine with one in the chamber.

7(for the clip) and 1 in the chanber. 7+1.

There is some debate as to whether that handgun will hold 8 rounds. I only watched a video clip of the KelTec and freely admit that I have never fired one. IMO, It is a cheap peice of crap.

Just the trigger pull alone of 4.5lbs is enough to keep me away. Not to mention that there is no active safety. It relies on its double action trigger and weight of finger pull.

I prefer Smith and Wesson.

One thing I would like people to note is that holster. It has a clip on the side, not unlike the old cell phone carriers for a visual, and attachs to the inside of your pants. There is no restraining strap to keep the gun in place. You grab the grip and pull it out. No deterents to slow you down.

I have seen a better picture of it somewhere that will make it clearer.

If Martin would have been on top of Zimmerman, on his knees, with one leg on each side of his body (straddling him), allegedly punching him on the face, Zimmerman wouldn't have been able to reach his gun because it would have been underneath Trayvon's thigh.

Correct Alessandra. There is alot that has to be determined. Most of Zimmermans account "so far" is not consistant. This is probably why he was charged with "murder 2".

[quote="Gizmo711"]

CherokeeNative wrote:

Freckles wrote:CN-
If I was GZ and TM had the advantage over me, I would not have been calling, "Help me!" I would have had my gun in my hand as soon as I entered the dark walkway area; IF I had been suddenly set upon, I would have yelled, "Stop! Please stop! I have a gun and will shoot!"

Unlike what GZ reports,
I would not have been asking, "What are you doing here?" as I would already be in the "surprise" confrontation.

What is bad scripting is the reported comments of TM after GZ has shot him. The bullet instantly ended his life.There was no time left on the meter to call out some absurd comment about GZ "winning" pr whatever that goofy comment was.

You and I are on the same wave length - I believe GZ had his gun drawn at the time he went between those townhomes. And I do not believe the hollywood script that GZ gave for what Trayvon supposedly said. And I whole heartedly agree that instead of whining and crying that you hear in the tape, I would have been announcing I have my gun and about to use it. That's why I am sure it was not GZ crying for help - that was Trayvon. Now GZ may not have had the gun "in hand" at the time he took chase of Trayvon, and if he didn't, it had to be in his coat pocket or somewhere easily accessible...not in its holster. In fact, what is it they say that liars usually add a little truth to their story? Well, I would bet that where GZ states that he was reaching for his cellphone, he was really reaching for his weapon.

ETA: I worded that weird. I mean it doesn't make sense that the whining and crying that we hear on the tape would be GZ - he had the gun. And even if I were him I would have been yelling I have a gun....[/quote]

Exactly...Once someone sees a gun they will freeze. There would be no need to shoot it. It doesn't take a rocket scientists to know that you cannot outrun a bullit. Just the sight of a gun being pointed at you is enough. There would have been NO reason for Zimmerman to be screaming seeing as he was the one with the gun. And it doesn't make sense either, that the screaming stopped instantly upon the shot being fired. If it were Zimmerman screaming, he would have continued screaming if just for a second or two. JMO

Morning all!

You know what Gizmo? There is another subtle nuance in Zimmerman's Hollywood script as well. He said that the last words that Travon uttered were to the effect that "you got me". This struck me as odd because that kind of dying response would indicate that they knew each other before the encounter. I would think that Travon might more likely want to know who just shot me and why.

Porky wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

Freckles wrote:CN-
If I was GZ and TM had the advantage over me, I would not have been calling, "Help me!" I would have had my gun in my hand as soon as I entered the dark walkway area; IF I had been suddenly set upon, I would have yelled, "Stop! Please stop! I have a gun and will shoot!"

Unlike what GZ reports,
I would not have been asking, "What are you doing here?" as I would already be in the "surprise" confrontation.

What is bad scripting is the reported comments of TM after GZ has shot him. The bullet instantly ended his life.There was no time left on the meter to call out some absurd comment about GZ "winning" pr whatever that goofy comment was.

You and I are on the same wave length - I believe GZ had his gun drawn at the time he went between those townhomes. And I do not believe the hollywood script that GZ gave for what Trayvon supposedly said. And I whole heartedly agree that instead of whining and crying that you hear in the tape, I would have been announcing I have my gun and about to use it. That's why I am sure it was not GZ crying for help - that was Trayvon. Now GZ may not have had the gun "in hand" at the time he took chase of Trayvon, and if he didn't, it had to be in his coat pocket or somewhere easily accessible...not in its holster. In fact, what is it they say that liars usually add a little truth to their story? Well, I would bet that where GZ states that he was reaching for his cellphone, he was really reaching for his weapon.

ETA: I worded that weird. I mean it doesn't make sense that the whining and crying that we hear on the tape would be GZ - he had the gun. And even if I were him I would have been yelling I have a gun....

Exactly...Once someone sees a gun they will freeze. There would be no need to shoot it. It doesn't take a rocket scientists to know that you cannot outrun a bullit. Just the sight of a gun being pointed at you is enough. There would have been NO reason for Zimmerman to be screaming seeing as he was the one with the gun. And it doesn't make sense either, that the screaming stopped instantly upon the shot being fired. If it were Zimmerman screaming, he would have continued screaming if just for a second or two. JMO

Morning all!

You know what Gizmo? There is another subtle nuance in Zimmerman's Hollywood script as well. He said that the last words that Travon uttered were to the effect that "you got me". This struck me as odd because that kind of dying response would indicate that they knew each other before the encounter. I would think that Travon might more likely want to know who just shot me and why.

I had to fix those quotes...I am an editing freak.

I would be more prone to believe that TM said "You shot me" and GZ didn't hear it correctly. That is if he had time to speak at all.

As for straddling, Zimmerman said that he squirmed his way off of the pavement. He may have still been squirming and had gotten TM down toward his knees in the process. TM was not that heavy (5'11"/158lbs) and in a scuffle his position could have changed from hips to knees several times. At the time of the shooting, TM chest was near waist level. There are no witnesses to the shooting and only John to report how the scuffle was going down prior to.

Staddling doesn't necessarily mean just at the waist. It just means that there is a leg on either side.

You cannot make me believe that GZ had that gun out prior to that altercation. Common sense and self-preservation would take over. Fight or flight is instinctive..

If you saw a gun in advance, you wouldn't bring your fist to that fight. IMO.

The T Mobile cell is Evidence marker #7. I haven't looked at the crime scene photos in a while but, IIRC, that marker is down by the key ring or not too far away from it. That is the point where I believe the scuffle started since DD stated that her call was dropped so quickly. TM's body was still further south by may 10-15 yards. They were very much mobile during this.

On the DNA, I made up a nice little chart as to what was found and where so that people would quit relying on what other posters were saying instead of just reading the reports themselves. I got almost all the way through and my computer froze up. I did find a descrepancy in the ME-8 and ME-12 regarding the hoodie and the shirt worn under by TM. Plus those numbers issued by the ME are different from the numbers issued by LE.

I couldn't even move the cursor to save it so I became the "curser," turned off the POS computer and went to bed. I will work on it later. I am having to type it out because I can't figure out how to do a screen or region capture on Picasa like I used to be able to with Photoscape. I am soooooo not Freckles when it comes to typing. At my best I am maybe 20-25 wpm.

**NOTE TO SELF**
Hit SAVE button more frequently. LOL!

DebFrmHell wrote:

Porky wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

Freckles wrote:CN-
If I was GZ and TM had the advantage over me, I would not have been calling, "Help me!" I would have had my gun in my hand as soon as I entered the dark walkway area; IF I had been suddenly set upon, I would have yelled, "Stop! Please stop! I have a gun and will shoot!"

Unlike what GZ reports,
I would not have been asking, "What are you doing here?" as I would already be in the "surprise" confrontation.

What is bad scripting is the reported comments of TM after GZ has shot him. The bullet instantly ended his life.There was no time left on the meter to call out some absurd comment about GZ "winning" pr whatever that goofy comment was.

You and I are on the same wave length - I believe GZ had his gun drawn at the time he went between those townhomes. And I do not believe the hollywood script that GZ gave for what Trayvon supposedly said. And I whole heartedly agree that instead of whining and crying that you hear in the tape, I would have been announcing I have my gun and about to use it. That's why I am sure it was not GZ crying for help - that was Trayvon. Now GZ may not have had the gun "in hand" at the time he took chase of Trayvon, and if he didn't, it had to be in his coat pocket or somewhere easily accessible...not in its holster. In fact, what is it they say that liars usually add a little truth to their story? Well, I would bet that where GZ states that he was reaching for his cellphone, he was really reaching for his weapon.

ETA: I worded that weird. I mean it doesn't make sense that the whining and crying that we hear on the tape would be GZ - he had the gun. And even if I were him I would have been yelling I have a gun....

Exactly...Once someone sees a gun they will freeze. There would be no need to shoot it. It doesn't take a rocket scientists to know that you cannot outrun a bullit. Just the sight of a gun being pointed at you is enough. There would have been NO reason for Zimmerman to be screaming seeing as he was the one with the gun. And it doesn't make sense either, that the screaming stopped instantly upon the shot being fired. If it were Zimmerman screaming, he would have continued screaming if just for a second or two. JMO

Morning all!

You know what Gizmo? There is another subtle nuance in Zimmerman's Hollywood script as well. He said that the last words that Travon uttered were to the effect that "you got me". This struck me as odd because that kind of dying response would indicate that they knew each other before the encounter. I would think that Travon might more likely want to know who just shot me and why.

I had to fix those quotes...I am an editing freak.

I would be more prone to believe that TM said "You shot me" and GZ didn't hear it correctly. That is if he had time to speak at all.

As for straddling, Zimmerman said that he squirmed his way off of the pavement. He may have still been squirming and had gotten TM down toward his knees in the process. TM was not that heavy (5'11"/158lbs) and in a scuffle his position could have changed from hips to knees several times. At the time of the shooting, TM chest was near waist level. There are no witnesses to the shooting and only John to report how the scuffle was going down prior to.

Staddling doesn't necessarily mean just at the waist. It just means that there is a leg on either side.

You cannot make me believe that GZ had that gun out prior to that altercation. Common sense and self-preservation would take over. Fight or flight is instinctive..

If you saw a gun in advance, you wouldn't bring your fist to that fight. IMO.

The T Mobile cell is Evidence marker #7. I haven't looked at the crime scene photos in a while but, IIRC, that marker is down by the key ring or not too far away from it. That is the point where I believe the scuffle started since DD stated that her call was dropped so quickly. TM's body was still further south by may 10-15 yards. They were very much mobile during this.

On the DNA, I made up a nice little chart as to what was found and where so that people would quit relying on what other posters were saying instead of just reading the reports themselves. I got almost all the way through and my computer froze up. I did find a descrepancy in the ME-8 and ME-12 regarding the hoodie and the shirt worn under by TM. Plus those numbers issued by the ME are different from the numbers issued by LE.

I couldn't even move the cursor to save it so I became the "curser," turned off the POS computer and went to bed. I will work on it later. I am having to type it out because I can't figure out how to do a screen or region capture on Picasa like I used to be able to with Photoscape. I am soooooo not Freckles when it comes to typing. At my best I am maybe 20-25 wpm.

**NOTE TO SELF**
Hit SAVE button more frequently. LOL!

Good morning Deb - All. Deb, you are probably rolling your eyes because I keep trying to figure a way to blame GZ's injuries on something other than Trayvon's actions. Based upon your knowledge of the gun, and since recoil wasn't a possible culprit, could the slide action of the gun have struck GZ in the nose? Thanks!

ellejay wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

If there was no DNA under Trayvon's nails, then how did those scratches get there? He has one on the side of his head/face too (pix by Deb). Makes me wonder if he crashed and fell into an A/C unit and bushes and got all of those nicks and cuts. Broken nose from Trayvon punching him, okay - but that wouldn't make the scratches - right?

--i agree and think it's quite possible that while he was skulking around the building that he slipped on the wet grass and scratched his face on a bush or a branch.

--i'm not sure that trayvon gave him the (likely) broken nose either.it takes quite a hard punch to break a nose and yet trayvon has NO swelling or so much as one bruise on either of his hands. just the small 1/8" X 1/4" abrasion on one finger.

--the injuries to the back of the head don't look like it was from a repeated bashing on the sidewalk---the one (to the right of the top of the main strip of dried blood) looks like his head hit something that had a "shape" to it, and not a flat piece of concrete.

BBM
Thanks Ellejay - This is exactly why I keep harping on what else could have caused GZ's injuries. That, plus the fact that the prosecutor/investigator at the bond hearing gave the impression that they believed GZ's injuries were caused by something else other than Trayvon's bashing of GZ head into the concrete. When you throw blows at someone, not only does that person's body take a beating, but so does your hands - at the very least, if Trayvon were throwing blows with his fists or MM style (whatever that is) you would expect, at the very least, bruising. Trayvon had nothing other than a 1/4"-1/8" cut on a finger - that's an itty bitty injury when you consider that GZ is claiming he was being beaten to within inches of diaperdom.

From Reality Chatter Latest News:

Trayvon Martin case: Has the media prematurely declared George Zimmerman's innocence?

By Joy-Ann Reid

8:02 AM on 05/22/2012


George Zimmerman in court (Getty Images)

Much of the media is now fixated on the pictures of injuries George Zimmerman sustained on the night he shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

A consensus appears to be building that those photos -- of scratches, abrasions and wounds to the back of Zimmerman's head -- bolster, Zimmerman's claims of self-defense. Some news outlets have gone so far as to ask whether second degree murder charges against Zimmerman should be dropped altogether, on the premise that. if the Miami teen struck the 28-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer, Zimmerman was justified in shooting to kill, under Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law.

But is that what the law says?

Legal experts say no.

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/media-jprematurely-declares-george-zimmerman-innocence.php

CherokeeNative wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:

Porky wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

Freckles wrote:CN-
If I was GZ and TM had the advantage over me, I would not have been calling, "Help me!" I would have had my gun in my hand as soon as I entered the dark walkway area; IF I had been suddenly set upon, I would have yelled, "Stop! Please stop! I have a gun and will shoot!"

Unlike what GZ reports,
I would not have been asking, "What are you doing here?" as I would already be in the "surprise" confrontation.

What is bad scripting is the reported comments of TM after GZ has shot him. The bullet instantly ended his life.There was no time left on the meter to call out some absurd comment about GZ "winning" pr whatever that goofy comment was.

You and I are on the same wave length - I believe GZ had his gun drawn at the time he went between those townhomes. And I do not believe the hollywood script that GZ gave for what Trayvon supposedly said. And I whole heartedly agree that instead of whining and crying that you hear in the tape, I would have been announcing I have my gun and about to use it. That's why I am sure it was not GZ crying for help - that was Trayvon. Now GZ may not have had the gun "in hand" at the time he took chase of Trayvon, and if he didn't, it had to be in his coat pocket or somewhere easily accessible...not in its holster. In fact, what is it they say that liars usually add a little truth to their story? Well, I would bet that where GZ states that he was reaching for his cellphone, he was really reaching for his weapon.

ETA: I worded that weird. I mean it doesn't make sense that the whining and crying that we hear on the tape would be GZ - he had the gun. And even if I were him I would have been yelling I have a gun....

Exactly...Once someone sees a gun they will freeze. There would be no need to shoot it. It doesn't take a rocket scientists to know that you cannot outrun a bullit. Just the sight of a gun being pointed at you is enough. There would have been NO reason for Zimmerman to be screaming seeing as he was the one with the gun. And it doesn't make sense either, that the screaming stopped instantly upon the shot being fired. If it were Zimmerman screaming, he would have continued screaming if just for a second or two. JMO

Morning all!

You know what Gizmo? There is another subtle nuance in Zimmerman's Hollywood script as well. He said that the last words that Travon uttered were to the effect that "you got me". This struck me as odd because that kind of dying response would indicate that they knew each other before the encounter. I would think that Travon might more likely want to know who just shot me and why.

I had to fix those quotes...I am an editing freak.

I would be more prone to believe that TM said "You shot me" and GZ didn't hear it correctly. That is if he had time to speak at all.

As for straddling, Zimmerman said that he squirmed his way off of the pavement. He may have still been squirming and had gotten TM down toward his knees in the process. TM was not that heavy (5'11"/158lbs) and in a scuffle his position could have changed from hips to knees several times. At the time of the shooting, TM chest was near waist level. There are no witnesses to the shooting and only John to report how the scuffle was going down prior to.

Staddling doesn't necessarily mean just at the waist. It just means that there is a leg on either side.

You cannot make me believe that GZ had that gun out prior to that altercation. Common sense and self-preservation would take over. Fight or flight is instinctive..

If you saw a gun in advance, you wouldn't bring your fist to that fight. IMO.

The T Mobile cell is Evidence marker #7. I haven't looked at the crime scene photos in a while but, IIRC, that marker is down by the key ring or not too far away from it. That is the point where I believe the scuffle started since DD stated that her call was dropped so quickly. TM's body was still further south by may 10-15 yards. They were very much mobile during this.

On the DNA, I made up a nice little chart as to what was found and where so that people would quit relying on what other posters were saying instead of just reading the reports themselves. I got almost all the way through and my computer froze up. I did find a descrepancy in the ME-8 and ME-12 regarding the hoodie and the shirt worn under by TM. Plus those numbers issued by the ME are different from the numbers issued by LE.

I couldn't even move the cursor to save it so I became the "curser," turned off the POS computer and went to bed. I will work on it later. I am having to type it out because I can't figure out how to do a screen or region capture on Picasa like I used to be able to with Photoscape. I am soooooo not Freckles when it comes to typing. At my best I am maybe 20-25 wpm.

**NOTE TO SELF**
Hit SAVE button more frequently. LOL!

Good morning Deb - All. Deb, you are probably rolling your eyes because I keep trying to figure a way to blame GZ's injuries on something other than Trayvon's actions. Based upon your knowledge of the gun, and since recoil wasn't a possible culprit, could the slide action of the gun have struck GZ in the nose? Thanks!

Those slides are lightning quick and very powerful. You have seen the video. GZ and TM were in such close proximity when the gun was fired that if the slide was doing damage to his nose, the break and the small cut would have been significantly greater. It would be much worse than a punch in the face with a fist. It would be more like getting hit in the nose with a shovel.

The stipling on the shirt was a two inch square. (I think there is a definitive barrel void, too, but I am not swearing on that one!) It was not a direct contact wound so it is listed as intermediate range. I think that is 2" to 30" for range definition. I don't know if there is a chart available online that will show distances for stipling size. I am not even sure how to google to try and find it. The only thing I know is that the further the gun is away from the body the smaller the stipling.

Going by fond old memories, I would GUESSTIMATE the gun was fired between 4-8 inches.

It would surprise me to find out that they test fired that KEL TEC for stipling range. We know they did it to establish lands and grooves for proving the bullet that killed young Martin was actually fired from the KEL TEC. Somewhere in that 183 page Doc Dump it is mentioned.

The barrel marking (I call them voids) would be a clue as to distance, also. I never gave it a thought. I am sorry I don't remember where in that mess of pages I read it and I don't have it in me to go hunting for it. No doubt I will find it somewhere again, though. Looking for something else! Best guess is that I read it in the FDLE pages.

I sold my 9mm a couple of years ago or I would go screw around at a shooting range just for "S&G" to pay attention to stipling.

All IMO.

(lol-I have been reading all of those pages...it will put you to bed... for a very sound sleep. The other funny thing I found, common sense really, but I will never be accused of that one...is that the plus/minus symbols make the print larger/smaller. aaaaa-hahahahaha...after days of squinting my way thru witness statements! I actually laughed then swore inside my head...a lot. I am an idiot.)

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-omara-expects-more-evidence-20120521_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-witness-names
O'Mara: Corey has released only about half of her Zimmerman evidence

--snipped--

Criminal-defense lawyers who've reviewed the evidence have been critical of Corey, accusing her of filing a second-degree murder charge without enough evidence to support it.

But O'Mara on Monday wrote that the criticism would be premature.

He estimated that about half of the evidence has yet to be released. He did not specify what that included, but an Orlando Sentinel review suggests it includes Zimmerman's five statements, cell phone records, some crime-scene photos, medical records, witness names and other things.

News organizations likely will file court paperwork, pressing for the release or more information, meaning the whole thing may be decided by Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester Jr.

At a hearing last month, he said that if attorneys want to keep specific pieces of information from being made public, they'll need to file paperwork for each item and explain why.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:From Reality Chatter Latest News:

Trayvon Martin case: Has the media prematurely declared George Zimmerman's innocence?

By Joy-Ann Reid

8:02 AM on 05/22/2012


George Zimmerman in court (Getty Images)

Much of the media is now fixated on the pictures of injuries George Zimmerman sustained on the night he shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

A consensus appears to be building that those photos -- of scratches, abrasions and wounds to the back of Zimmerman's head -- bolster, Zimmerman's claims of self-defense. Some news outlets have gone so far as to ask whether second degree murder charges against Zimmerman should be dropped altogether, on the premise that. if the Miami teen struck the 28-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer, Zimmerman was justified in shooting to kill, under Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law.

But is that what the law says?

Legal experts say no.

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/media-jprematurely-declares-george-zimmerman-innocence.php

They didn't have a problem finding him prematurely guilty so why not start with the prematurely innocent?

That is what they do. Spin, Spin, Spin...

Alessandra_Deux wrote:From Reality Chatter Latest News:

Trayvon Martin case: Has the media prematurely declared George Zimmerman's innocence?

By Joy-Ann Reid

8:02 AM on 05/22/2012


Much of the media is now fixated on the pictures of injuries George Zimmerman sustained on the night he shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

A consensus appears to be building that those photos -- of scratches, abrasions and wounds to the back of Zimmerman's head -- bolster, Zimmerman's claims of self-defense. Some news outlets have gone so far as to ask whether second degree murder charges against Zimmerman should be dropped altogether, on the premise that. if the Miami teen struck the 28-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer, Zimmerman was justified in shooting to kill, under Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law.

But is that what the law says?

Legal experts say no.

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/media-jprematurely-declares-george-zimmerman-innocence.php

--above article:

"What it proves is that [Zimmerman's] got credible evidence on one of the elements of
Stand Your Ground,' which is the claim that he was in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury. But that doesn't answer the question of who started the fight, or the other critical question: did Zimmerman have to finish the fight by killing Trayvon Martin. Those questions are obviously not addressed by anybody's photographs."

And Catherine Crier, an MSNBC legal analyst and former district court judge in Texas, says the "Stand Your Ground" statute has other provisions that could prove problematic for Zimmerman's defense.

"There's an interesting provision right at the end of the statute [that says] you can't use 'Stand Your Ground' if you initially provoke the use of force, unless that person is coming at you with such great force that you really are fearful for your life, and you've exhausted every other means of escape other than force," Crier says. "And you can't use it unless you withdraw [from the situation], or indicate clearly that you want to withdraw, and that other person continues to use force that could cause serious bodily harm or death."

"You're telling me that George Zimmerman -- armed -- has a gun, and he is terrified that Trayvon Martin is going to get him, and he has really tried to run?" Crier asks. "All you've got to do is pull that gun and say, 'hey, I'm walking away from this.' Show's over."

ellejay wrote:http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-omara-expects-more-evidence-20120521_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-witness-names
O'Mara: Corey has released only about half of her Zimmerman evidence

--snipped--

Criminal-defense lawyers who've reviewed the evidence have been critical of Corey, accusing her of filing a second-degree murder charge without enough evidence to support it.

But O'Mara on Monday wrote that the criticism would be premature.

He estimated that about half of the evidence has yet to be released. He did not specify what that included, but an Orlando Sentinel review suggests it includes Zimmerman's five statements, cell phone records, some crime-scene photos, medical records, witness names and other things.

News organizations likely will file court paperwork, pressing for the release or more information, meaning the whole thing may be decided by Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester Jr.

At a hearing last month, he said that if attorneys want to keep specific pieces of information from being made public, they'll need to file paperwork for each item and explain why.

That is kind of a curious statement. In regards to the half of the discovery that he hasn't gotten...How can MOM file motions to keep certain things out of the press if he hasn't received them yet? They are using the reference to the witness statements from last month at the bail hearing to inject into their current news story. It is not news any longer, IMO. More like history.

MOM seems to reitierate in interviews that people should not rush to judge until everything is released. He said the same thing basically in the Crump/Rivera/MOM interview. Very sensible, IMO.

http://www.gzlegalcase.com/
Where Is the Rest of the Discovery on the Zimmerman Case? on 21 May 2012.

We have fielded many inquiries regarding the additional information about this case. The State Attorney’s Office has made much of the evidence in the George Zimmerman case public record on Thursday, May 17, 2012. Mr. Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara, has stressed that people should not make up their minds about this case based upon the partial evidence available. The O’Mara Law Group has estimated that only about half of the discovery has been made available by the state so far. The remainder of the discovery is currently being scrutinized, and certain information is being properly redacted -- especially information that puts witnesses in potential danger or risks unnecessarily inflaming the cultural tensions that surround this case. We agree with the State’s decision to attend to this discovery in a methodical, protected way.

It may be several weeks before all the evidence is delivered to the defense, and it is important to note that certain items in evidence may not be made public at all. Because of the interest in this case, it is understood that there will be wide public examination of the evidence. The O’Mara Law group stresses that while the George Zimmerman case will be explored deeply in the media and by the public, the only proper place to determine the guilt or innocence of George Zimmerman is in court, and indeed only the jury will have all the evidence required to make such a determination.

--mentioning that "only a jury" will have all the evidence would 'suggest' that omara is planning on skipping the SYG immunity hearing (the mini-trial heard only by the judge) and taking this to trial.

MOM stated in the past that he would probably forego the SYG for standard self-defense, IIRC. He saw how GZ withered on the stand during the small cross in the bail hearing. Why on earth would he want that to happen when using the SYG changes the burden of proof to the defense rather than the prosecution?

Isn't there still an evidenciary hearing to be held yet? Before the possible SYG? He could ask for an outright dismissal of charges at that time.

Sorry, I forget the order for all of these hearing.

Ellejay, do you have a link to the order? I don't mean the dates because I don't think any hae been assigned thus far. I get confused.

DebFrmHell wrote:

That is kind of a curious statement. In regards to the half of the discovery that he hasn't gotten...How can MOM file motions to keep certain things out of the press if he hasn't received them yet? They are using the reference to the witness statements from last month at the bail hearing to inject into their current news story. It is not news any longer, IMO. More like history.

MOM seems to reitierate in interviews that people should not rush to judge until everything is released. He said the same thing basically in the Crump/Rivera/MOM interview. Very sensible, IMO.

--if he doesn't file a motion before getting something, wouldn't it be too late? ( in that other florida case, once the state filed discovery w/ the clerk, it was up for (public) grabs, in fact at times we had it before the media --a local paid the $1/page and scooped it up/posted it online--before baez had even begun to whine about it.)

--i imagine they're working hard right now on their motion to keep out at least some of the portions of george's statements to LE.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/George-Zimmerman-s-attorney-says-more-evidence-to-come/-/1637132/13486818/-/x1vridz/-/index.html

The most crucial evidence not being released, though, are statements his client George Zimmerman made to police.

"There's a chance I may have a right to suppress some of those," O'Mara said.

One small point I wanted to bring up again -- if Zimmerman was facile and mobile enough to wiggle his way off the pavement, to where the fight ended up on the grass less than 2 minutes later, then IMO he was capable of ending the fight without shooting Martin. In fact, if Zimmerman was even trying to get out from under Martin's supposed "blows" or "pummels," wouldn't there be evidence of that all over Martin's limbs and clothing -- blood, dna and injuries? Just does not make sense. I believe that there is no evidence of Zimmerman using HIS hands to protect himself because they were occupied the whole time - holding the gun. imo