George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

hello clarice wrote:I'm begining to better understand why Val closed her site after seeing this thread descend to it's current level. I don't post very often prefering to read, learn and digest information and evidence and I very much appreciate the research and constructive views of some of the commenters but when a poster asks why they should be interested in reading an experts opinion it's time to throw in the towel.
Good discussions and debates can't be had any more, people get too wrapped up in their own agenda's and are unwilling to listen and learn from the other side. Just another thing that is sending our whole society to he!! All IMO!

justanopinion wrote:http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf





someone correct me if I am wrong... this witness claims to have heard more than 1 male voice prior to the shot fired..
She saw them wrestling.. not hitting...
and the hispanic man... was wearing a short sleeve shirt

....MOO MOO MOO
GZ was wearing a shirt and a jacket!! the red jacket certainly does not look like a short sleeve shirt!

and who were the voices... a dominant louder one... and another voice..

why does she say she saw someone come there before the police carrying a flashlight... and they talk... and GZ is by himself after the shooting...


just picking what is FACT apart...

Alessandra_Deux wrote:4 Witnesses Change Stories About Night of Trayvon Martin Shooting: Could This Change The Case?

Of the four accounts, Trace Gallagher reports two of the accounts seem to have changed very much, including the man who actually witnessed the fight between Zimmerman and Martin. (Witness #6)

That first witness originally told police, “The one guy on top in the black hoodie was pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style … like a ground and pound on the concrete at this point.” But, on March 20, 2012, the story changed to this: “It looked like, you know, he had been hitting him from on top, but you know I can’t truly see how close, you know, they were to each other if he was hitting him or if he was trying to hold him down in that position until the cops got there.”

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/05/23/4-witnesses-change-stories-about-night-of-trayvon-martin-shooting-could-this-change-the-case/

----------------

Zimmerman Re-enactment Video:

https://youtu.be/VakGZgJxTi4

11:22 mark:

....then somebody come with a flashlight and I thought it was a police officer , so I said are you the police and he said, "no, no, I'm not, I'm calling the police.

And I, said don't call the police, help me restrain this guy, and....he said, "I'm calling the police, I'm calling the police",

And, I said, I already called, they are on their way, they are coming, I need your help....

----------------

Witness #13, the man with the flashlight, never told the police that Zimmerman asked him to help him restrain Trayvon...."don't call the police, help me restrain this guy". But we have "John", Witness #6, saying the folowing:

“It looked like, you know, he had been hitting him from on top, but you know I can’t truly see how close, you know, they were to each other if he was hitting him or if he was trying to hold him down in that position until the cops got there.”

DebFrmHell wrote:

justanopinion wrote:http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf





someone correct me if I am wrong... this witness claims to have heard more than 1 male voice prior to the shot fired..
She saw them wrestling.. not hitting...
and the hispanic man... was wearing a short sleeve shirt

....MOO MOO MOO
GZ was wearing a shirt and a jacket!! the red jacket certainly does not look like a short sleeve shirt!

and who were the voices... a dominant louder one... and another voice..

why does she say she saw someone come there before the police carrying a flashlight... and they talk... and GZ is by himself after the shooting...


just picking what is FACT apart...

You are referring to W18. She is the teacher that was so upset that the dispatcher stayed on the phone with her for a long time. This is the link to her original written statement:
http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf

You can find it on page 88. It is only a paragraph long. The following 13 pages are hers also. They come from the 3/16 interview that was done with Serino, IIRC. It is much easier to read since she is not so tramatized and her handwriting isn't so shaky. Serino begins his questioning on page 5 of the 13. His writing is atrocious so brace yourself for that.

The O'Steen interview that is from the screen capture came much later. I think around 4/4 but don't quote me on that. I need to double check. The link to that is on the other computer. I will look for it later. I know another site that has a pretty good library. The one at TL moved into the evidence thread and I have to admit I have been slow to reestablish all of the links I had before.

This is the TL link to W18 and it discusses the changes in her statement. It does not include the O'Steen interview and those changes:
http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2045.0.html

ETA: Found additional info on W18:
http://www.news4jax.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf
Page 16, Gilbreath's recap.

colsnipe wrote:
According GZ, his head was bashed into the sidewalk at least 24 times…Why did he not defend himself? He was counting the number of times his head was being bashed in. Why did he choose to count the number of times his head was bashed in over the preservation of his own life? Where are the defensive wounds? He has none. And yet, according to GZ, natural instinct did not kick in. This is the same natural instinct that “made” GZ pull his gun out and shoot TM.

As some of you on this board have noticed, I with another poster tried out some psychology to see how long before other posters caught on…the score is 2.5.

2.5 times of down/up before it was noticed. 2.5 times “our” collective head was bashed before someone spoke up. 2.5 times before a poster stopped to ask why. Was it 2.5 times before it was asked “Why are you attacking me?”

I think I can state with a degree of certainty that most, if not all, of us would not bother to count the number of times our head was bashed in; our natural instinct would kick in and cause us to fight and to save our life. The evidence shows us that GZ never raised his own hand to save his own life against an attacker that would beat his head to such a point that he would be in diapers for the his life.

Freckles wrote:

hello clarice wrote:I'm beginning to better understand why Val closed her site after seeing this thread descend to it's current level. I don't post very often preferring to read, learn and digest information and evidence and I very much appreciate the research and constructive views of some of the commenters but when a poster asks why they should be interested in reading an experts opinion it's time to throw in the towel.
Good discussions and debates can't be had any more, people get too wrapped up in their own agenda's and are unwilling to listen and learn from the other side. Just another thing that is sending our whole society to he!! All IMO!

BBM
I will leave it to you to decide whom you wish to read and determine IF an opinion is "expert" or not. I grant that to you and would hope you would grant to others the right to choose whose opinions they respect.

IMO, the source cited has a definite "sway" to her opinions that are left uninfluenced by evidence. Too much supposition, IMO, and I can not endorse that as in "expert" opinion.

KZ wrote:I'd like to politely ask that members here please stop reposting posts from other privately owned blogs. If you want to discuss something posted at another opinion and comment site, please go there, register, and comment. But don't bring it here. That includes both "pro" Zimmerman, as well as "anti" Zimmerman opinion and sites. It's ok to post that you heard about "breaking news" (such as the recent discussions about a change in the Judge assigned to the case) at such and such a site, but if your post here is only to RE-POST something someone else posted at another site, to either agree or disagree with it, then please don't post that here. Go there, wherever "there" is.

Mainstream media articles are fair game. But please cease reposting from other "opinion and comment" sites. This type of posting pattern typically can lead to "blog wars". Feel free to discuss with each other in PM's if you like, but let's keep it off the main discussion.

Rehashing someone else's posts or opinions from another site is not furthering productive discussion.

Thank you, all.

art tart wrote:Freckles = you were called out by someone that reads here for your comment claiming you know more than a criminal defense attorney, "justclarice" was correct imo.

I would have ignored your comment HAD YOU NOT insulted Jeralyn and stated: "the source cited has a definite "sway" to her opinions that are left uninfluenced by evidence. "

This is an outright lie and to allow it to stand is an insult to Jeralyn and everyone else that reads here. When someone spoke unkindly of Valhall like you have done of Jeralyn on other Blogs, I LMAO when Valhall showed up to set the record straight and call them out.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:It seems that people who does not agree with Zimmerman's self defense theory come under siege because of their dissenting opinions. Personal attacks do not help make a point.

I believe it is clear where the problem reside. I can see the same patterns seen in THM emerging here.

I would like to be able to civilly discuss this case here (at RC) with other people who are equally interested in the case, even if their opinions differ from my own.

I won't like this particular thread to be shut down (perhaps that is the agenda) because some people are creating unnecessary drama in the same way that they previously did at THM.

We all should heed KZ's advice and move on with the discussion.

"justanopinion"] @ Art Tart I am wondering if Jeralyn's blog (sorry I have not read there) being that she is a Criminal Defense Attorney does she have more information than we do? Does she rely on just what is publicly available now to us?

Alessandra_Deux wrote:It seems that people who does not agree with Zimmerman's self defense theory come under siege because of their dissenting opinions. Personal attacks do not help make a point.

I believe it is clear where the problem reside. I can see the same patterns seen in THM emerging here.

I would like to be able to civilly discuss this case here (at RC) with other people who are equally interested in the case, even if their opinions differ from my own.

I won't like this particular thread to be shut down (perhaps that is the agenda) because some people are creating unnecessary drama in the same way that they previously did at THM.

We all should heed KZ's advice and move on with the discussion.

art tart wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:It seems that people who does not agree with Zimmerman's self defense theory come under siege because of their dissenting opinions. Personal attacks do not help make a point.

I believe it is clear where the problem reside. I can see the same patterns seen in THM emerging here.

I would like to be able to civilly discuss this case here (at RC) with other people who are equally interested in the case, even if their opinions differ from my own.

I won't like this particular thread to be shut down (perhaps that is the agenda) because some people are creating unnecessary drama in the same way that they previously did at THM.

We all should heed KZ's advice and move on with the discussion.

Alessandra - I read outrageous outright lies on this thread frequently , not based on any known facts, it's not tolerated at most blogs, you can put your link supporting your opinion up or shut up at most blogs, that is not required here. That is not done by those because there is no link, there is no evidence supporting a wild idea. I continually read the bashing of GZ, his father, Shellie, etc., I am tired of the bashing of GZ and his family.

This thread started as the bully thread and was dominated by bullies, they ran off members that had been long time members at the HM. Anyone wanting GZ to receive a fair trial took a beat down, I got so tired of taking the bullying and the beatdowns, just like many others, I left the thread. Some former members from the HM left this site completely. THEN, the bullies left for the most part and followed Chickenbutt apparently. The damage had already been done to this thread, but I started participating again after they left.

The problem imo is that those that have convicted GZ are finding that the case is not as solid as they were led to believe. Attacking Shellie Zimmerman, Robert, or GZ is petty, embarrassing and ridiculous. GZ deserves a fair trial, despite those that are opposed to that. Crump/the Handler's interjected themselves into the case and even TM's parent's presented an image that was not factual. MOM is requesting to have the photos of a young TM removed from the trial as they "misrepresent" who TM was.

imo, the negative information that has been coming out about TM has made many of TM supporters mad. Well get over it, GZ has been bashed and lied about since the night of the tragedy. A full scale Media War against GZ was orchestrated by Crump/Handler's and spewing propaganda, of course most media knows most of this is not true now as so much evidence has come out. It is unfair that GZ has been convicted in the media by a group of opportunist promoting an agenda, that agenda is now losing momentum as more evidence has come out that proves much of the information they presented is untrue and have been proven so.

TM's school records are in for one school, but still outstanding for 3 other schools. This information is not going to come to light UNLESS it has relevance to this case but Crump moved immediately in the beginning of the case to have everything sealed and but he was unsuccessful per Judge Nelson. Though many here don't like that, get over it, the law is clear and explained as to why this was granted and the Statute in which Judge Nelson ruled in favor sited on MOM/West's website and Jeralyn sited the cases at Talk Left long before the motion was granted. The case law is shared by the attorney's and the cases that this had been used before.

I am going to scream if I read one more time, "so, you are saying TM deserved to die." An outrageous lie and personal attack, totally fabricated to insult. It seems the commenter's that convicted GZ seem to think GZ has all the responsibility of the events of the tragedy, , imo, the evidence shows TM made poor decisions and has some responsibility also. TM supporters don't like that, but it will be brought out at trial, the information is available now for anyone to read.

The fact is, TM died that evening, many bad choices by TM and GZ were shared in the tragedy. I find it impossible to have a discussion with someone that can't even admit, though having been told several times by many and links provided, circumstances that happened that evening and continue to deny them. That is not discussing anything. Wild scenarios are floated that aren't supported by any known evidence, as if pulled out of the sky. You can't have a discussion with that.

Alessandra, I agree with you on all the other cases we have participated in together except this one. Though I don't agree with some of your logic, I understand, since the beginning of this case, you wanted GZ convicted, I accept that. I appreciate if we disagree, we both share links as to why we feel a certain way, imo, that is how a blog should work. Share a link to support your opinion. You do this but many don't.

I might remind you that ALL of those that comment on this thread want GZ convicted except a few of us that want a fair trial, DebFrmHell, KZ, Lash or me. It's uncomfortable and inexcusable to read lies posted by some commenter's that have absolutely nothing to support the lie, Val used to say, "it's like pulling a pink twinkie out of your butt." I personally am not going to let a LIE stand as if it is a fact, when it is clearly not.

art tart wrote:
Freckles - Are you saying you know more than a published Criminal Defense Attorney that has no agenda in this case, does not profit in any way from this case, that has researched this case and interprets the laws applied in this case and has had an established criminal blog for many years? Does that make sense to you?

Jeralyn's blog is a liberal blog yet I am not a liberal, the "sway" you are claiming are the facts she shares in the case through the eyes of someone that practices criminal law, other attorneys comment on her site as well, the "sway" she shares does not fit your ideas in the case but they are backed up with research and evidence, but you continue to claim there wasn't even an altercation.

sitemama wrote:I agree with you Kimmy, I want GZ to get a fair trial, but like you, I don't believe his story. As far as TM is concerned, GZ did not know who he was, did not know about his troubles in school, but he had to have known he was just a teenager. If he was doing his duties as NW, he should have called out to the person and stated who he was and ask him where he was going. My daughter's friend lives in that community, and she said she had never seen GZ and would not have known him if she had seen him walking around outside.

I think if a gated community has NW people, they should introduce themselves to all residents.