George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Pretty interesting article on the possible chain of events...
Why Retreat View Circle?

http://blackbutterfly7.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/why-retreat-view-circle/

sitemama wrote:Everyone has an opinion and they are different at times. But, why keep hashing it back and forth. I always check this thread to see if there is any more true info, but not to re-read every day the same thing. Why not wait to see what the courts are going to do next. If there is another article in the paper, with some real facts, please by all means, post that! But please stop the bickering. There are too many re-posting what everyone is saying, then adding a few lines of disagreement. I know I am not a mod of admin, but I know I am on this site more than any of the mods and admins are. And, frankly it is getting a little bit boring. I thought you girls were all friends at THM, but now I wonder if maybe this is what caused Val to close that site.

Come on, act like adults and stop voicing your opinions over and over. We are well aware whose side everyone is on, so we don't have to continue with these lame remarks.

(Getting off my soapbox now)

Great idea and thank you Sitemama

Perhaps look at the evidence we know of thus far and theorize what may have happened?
Maybe debate without bickering or being unkind to each other and discuss the possibilities??
Just my two cents, FWIW

When I want REAL info on this case,I checkin at Marinade Dave's...He's closer to the action and is a very talented writer to boot.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Lash wrote:
Alessandra, that's exactly how TM and GZ were positioned during the struggle...a still photograph, right?

No Lash, that is a graphic depiction of what Zimmerman was telling the detectives.

"I'm on my back, he is on top of me, he is mounted on top of me, and I just shot him."

Alessandra, I apologize for my snarky comment above.

In my opinion, the still graphic depiction in the YouTube video does not fairly depict the altercation. No movement, no struggle, height, weight, etc...I do believe there will be a full reenactment in court, by the prosecution and defense.

Lash shared:

In my opinion, the still graphic depiction in the YouTube video does not fairly depict the altercation. No movement, no struggle, height, weight, etc...I do believe there will be a full reenactment in court, by the prosecution and defense.

Lash - I agree with your thoughts. Computer graphics are unbelievable now days, I expect the Defense to provide the depiction of the assualt showing TM astride GZ, GZ squirming, twisting, jerking, trying to remove TM's hands from his face, and the position of GZ on his back as supported by the witness GZ ask to call 911. I too expect there will be a graphic presented which shows where the witnesses were and the distance they were from the altercation as well as the height and weight as you mention.

No doubt the State will do the same in their accounting of what they think happened in the assualt though I don't know how they can counter GZ being on his back, the injuries to the back of his head or his facial injuries. It will be interesting to see the dipiction they present and how they have justified the 2 nd degree murder charge.

Both sides presented are going to be interesting and the visuals, no doubt, will help the jury to understand the events of the evening imo.

Lash wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

No Lash, that is a graphic depiction of what Zimmerman was telling the detectives.

"I'm on my back, he is on top of me, he is mounted on top of me, and I just shot him."

Alessandra, I apologize for my snarky comment above.

In my opinion, the still graphic depiction in the YouTube video does not fairly depict the altercation. No movement, no struggle, height, weight, etc...I do believe there will be a full reenactment in court, by the prosecution and defense.

I agree, the still photo serves the purpose to show what a mounted position is, it lacks the elements required to show the impossibility of someone being able to grab a gun from a waistband holster while they are on the ground, on their back, with someone on top of them in a mounted position, but it gives you an idea.

I also believe that there will a reenactment, not just of the shooting, but also a reenactment of the events that preceded the shooting.

P.S. Apology accepted. Thank you, Lash.

TIME Magazine's People Who Mattered in 2012


But social media would take the factors of race and class inherent in the case and transform the death of 17-year old Trayvon Martin, at the hands of neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman, into a full-fledged media phenomenon.

How the two men collided is at the heart of the controversy. Martin, who is black, and Zimmerman, a white Hispanic, were said to have scuffled. Zimmerman was allegedly suspicious that the teen was casing the neighborhood; Martin may have confronted the neighborhood watch volunteer because he was suspicious that a stranger was following him. Zimmerman’s lawyers say he was justified under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law, which allows such action under reasonable threat. Prosecutors charged him with second-degree murder. A jury will determine who was right beginning June 10, but the nation as a whole will be debating the meaning of Trayvon Martin for a much longer time.

http://poy.time.com/2012/12/19/people-who-mattered-in-2012/slide/trayvon-martin/#ixzz2H2RoruiT

Finally a news outlet portraying more accurate facts imo, maybe the NBC lawsuit has made an impression on some, TIME didn't convict GZ as many media outlets have done imo. BUT, TIME doesn't acknowledge that RACE is not a factor in the death of TM despite being hyped in the MEDIA.

Zimmerman hearing set for next week canceled

Next meeting scheduled for February

Posted: 6:34 a.m. Friday, Jan. 4, 2013
By Joe Ruble

SANFORD, Fla. — A hearing for George Zimmerman scheduled for next week has been canceled, WDBO has learned.

~Snipped~

“This case has enflamed passion on all sides of it and it’s dangerous,” defense attorney Mark O’Mara said.

Zimmerman remains secluded in Seminole county, despite his attorney's efforts to change that.

“I’m frustrated that he lives in hiding, he’s absolutely broke, needs money for good defense and cant come up with it,” O’Mara said. “And he’s being put upon by a prosecutor whose come out here and yelling about publicity.”

Read more:

http://www.wdbo.com/news/news/local/zimmerman-hearing-set-next-week-canceled/nTmmj/

In States With ‘Stand Your Ground’ Laws, Homicide on the Rise

Published on January 4, 2013
By Ashley Lopez
Florida Center for Investigative Reporting

http://fcir.org/2013/01/04/in-states-with-stand-your-ground-laws-homicide-on-the-rise/

Alessandra_Deux wrote:In States With ‘Stand Your Ground’ Laws, Homicide on the Rise

Published on January 4, 2013
By Ashley Lopez
Florida Center for Investigative Reporting

http://fcir.org/2013/01/04/in-states-with-stand-your-ground-laws-homicide-on-the-rise/

it all depends on the data is tweaked. if the data is tweaked to state that all shootings result in homicides or that a portion of the shooting had mal-intent. sometimes the shooting can be legit and clean; yet the LEOs will state that there was no clear reason for the shooting and that the shooting was not justified.

Just remember, that all data can be skewed to fit someones agenda. the same with polls, statistics...etc...

No Disrespect intended, just a clarification of the information. Alessandra_Deux you have wonderful posts and are quite informative so thanks for taking the time to get this information.

colsnipe wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:In States With ‘Stand Your Ground’ Laws, Homicide on the Rise

Published on January 4, 2013
By Ashley Lopez
Florida Center for Investigative Reporting

http://fcir.org/2013/01/04/in-states-with-stand-your-ground-laws-homicide-on-the-rise/

it all depends on the data is tweaked. if the data is tweaked to state that all shootings result in homicides or that a portion of the shooting had mal-intent. sometimes the shooting can be legit and clean; yet the LEOs will state that there was no clear reason for the shooting and that the shooting was not justified.

Just remember, that all data can be skewed to fit someones agenda. the same with polls, statistics...etc...

No Disrespect intended, just a clarification of the information. Alessandra_Deux you have wonderful posts and are quite informative so thanks for taking the time to get this information.

I found the NPR article that was cited in the article linked above:

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/02/167984117/-stand-your-ground-linked-to-increase-in-homicide

Thank you for the advice. :)

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

colsnipe wrote:

it all depends on the data is tweaked. if the data is tweaked to state that all shootings result in homicides or that a portion of the shooting had mal-intent. sometimes the shooting can be legit and clean; yet the LEOs will state that there was no clear reason for the shooting and that the shooting was not justified.

Just remember, that all data can be skewed to fit someones agenda. the same with polls, statistics...etc...

No Disrespect intended, just a clarification of the information. Alessandra_Deux you have wonderful posts and are quite informative so thanks for taking the time to get this information.

I found the NPR article that was cited in the article linked above:

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/02/167984117/-stand-your-ground-linked-to-increase-in-homicide

Thank you for the advice. :)

Looking back at the article, i had to think back to an event that just happened. Oregon mall shooting, Stand your ground was used but not applied. CCW holder did not fire due to other people around shooter.
I know it is not related to topic. but it needs to be said. not all uses of stand your ground result in homicides...
and not all uses result in the Citizen having to fire his gun.
Not sure who said it, but i think it needs repeating in light of these recent shootings.
"A well armed society is a polite society." Just my opinion...

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/a/Oregon-Gun-Laws.htm
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/15/Man-With-Concealed-Carry-Gun-May-Have-Prevented-Oregon-Shooter-From-Inflicting-More-Carnage

from the florida ccw site.

ccw prelim questionnaire
=====
Are you 21 years of age or older?
Yes No

Do you suffer from a physical infirmity that prevents the safe handling of a weapon or firearm?
Yes No

Do you desire a legal means to carry a concealed weapon or firearm for lawful self-defense?
Yes No

Do you have one of the forms of training documentation required under Section 790.06 (2)(h), which demonstrates competency with a firearm? More info
Yes No

Have you renounced US citizenship?
Yes No

Are you a fugitive from justice? More info
Yes No

Are you currently under arrest or charged with any felony? More info
Yes No

Are you currently under arrest or charged with any crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year? More info
Yes No

Are you currently under arrest or charged with any crime of violence? More info
Yes No

Are you currently under arrest or charged with any crime of domestic violence? More info
Yes No

Are you currently under arrest or charged with a crime under the provisions of Chapter 893, Florida Statutes, or similar laws of any other state relating to controlled substances? More info
Yes No

Are you currently residing in the United States?
Yes No

Are you a United States citizen?
Yes No

Have you been convicted of a felony as described in Section 790.23, Florida Statutes? More info
Yes No

Have you had adjudication of guilt withheld on any felony?
Yes No

Have you received a suspended sentence on any felony?
Yes No

Have you had adjudication of guilt withheld on any misdemeanor crime of violence (that was NOT domestic violence)? More info
Yes No

Have you received a suspended sentence on any misdemeanor crime of domestic violence? More info
Yes No

Have you been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence? More info
Yes No

Have you been found guilty of a misdemeanor crime under the provisions of Chapter 893 or similar laws of any other state relating to controlled substances?
Yes No

Have you been convicted under Section 790.151 relating to using a firearm while under the influence of alcoholic beverages, chemical substances, or controlled substances?
Yes No

Have you been deemed an habitual offender under Section 856.011(3) relating to disorderly intoxication?
Yes No

Have you had two or more convictions under Section 316.193 or similar laws of any other state relating to driving under the influence?
Yes No

Have you been committed under Chapter 397 (or former Chapter 396) or similar laws of another state for alcohol abuse or controlled substance abuse?
Yes No

Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802)?
Yes No

Have you been issued an injunction that is currently in force and effect restraining you from committing acts of domestic violence or acts of repeat violence? More info
Yes No

Have you been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year?
Yes No

Have you ever been adjudicated an incapacitated person under Section 744.331, or similar laws of any other state? More info
Yes No

Have you ever been involuntarily committed to a mental institution under Chapter 394, or similar laws of any other state? More info
Yes No

Are you a veteran of the Armed Forces?
Yes No

http://app1.licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/firearms/prequal_questions.aspx

based on my knowledge of GZ i filled in the above post...
here is what i got:

Concealed Weapon or Firearm License Preliminary Eligibility Determination
Based upon your answers, you may not qualify for the following reasons:

You answered Yes to question 9 - Are you currently under arrest or charged with any crime of violence? More info
» You are not eligible for licensure if you are under arrest or currently charged with any crime of violence.

However, if you are acquitted or the charges reach a final disposition that does not affect your eligibility for licensure, you should provide written proof supporting your eligibility for licensure. Upon receipt of this documentation, your application will be further reviewed. If additional information is required, you will be notified in writing.

You answered Yes to question 10 - Are you currently under arrest or charged with any crime of domestic violence? More info
» You are not eligible for licensure if you are under arrest or currently charged with any crime of domestic violence.

However, if you are acquitted or the charges reach a final disposition that does not affect your eligibility for licensure, you should provide written proof supporting your eligibility for licensure. Upon receipt of this documentation, your application will be further reviewed. If additional information is required, you will be notified in writing.

You answered Yes to question 18 - Have you received a suspended sentence on any misdemeanor crime of domestic violence? More info
» You are not eligible for licensure if you have received a suspended sentence on any misdemeanor crime of domestic violence and three years have not elapsed since probation or any other conditions set by the court have been fulfilled, or the record has been sealed or expunged.

However, if three years have elapsed since probation or any other conditions set by the court have been fulfilled, or the record has been sealed or expunged, you may be eligible for licensure.

A copy of the document issued by the court or probation office evidencing completion of probation or other conditions must be submitted with your application. Upon receipt of this documentation, your application will be further reviewed to determine your eligibility for licensure. If additional information is required, you will be notified in writing.

You answered Yes to question 19 - Have you been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence? More info
» You are not eligible for licensure if you have been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

However, if the record has been expunged or set aside, you may be eligible for licensure pursuant to 18 USC 921(a)(33)(B)(ii).

A copy of the document issued by the court evidencing the set aside or expungement must be submitted with your application. Upon receipt of this documentation, your application will be further reviewed to determine your eligibility for licensure. If additional information is required, you will be notified in writing.

18 USC 921(a)(33)(B)(ii) states: "A person shall not be considered to have been convicted of such an offense for purposes of this chapter if the conviction has been expunged or set aside, or is an offense for which the person has been pardoned or has had civil rights restored (if the law of the applicable jurisdiction provides for the loss of civil rights under such an offense) unless the pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms."

You answered Yes to question 20 - Have you been found guilty of a misdemeanor crime under the provisions of Chapter 893 or similar laws of any other state relating to controlled substances?
» You are not eligible for licensure if you have been found guilty of a misdemeanor crime under the provisions of Chapter 893 or similar laws of any other state relating to controlled substances within the preceding three years.

However, if more than three years have elapsed since probation or any other conditions set by the court have been fulfilled, or the record has been sealed or expunged, you may be eligible for licensure.

A copy of the document issued by the court or probation office evidencing completion of probation or other conditions must be submitted with your application. Upon receipt of this documentation, your application will be further reviewed to determine your eligibility for licensure. If additional information is required, you will be notified in writing.

You answered Yes to question 26 - Have you been issued an injunction that is currently in force and effect restraining you from committing acts of domestic violence or acts of repeat violence? More info
» You are not eligible for licensure if you have been issued an injunction that is currently in force and effect restraining you from committing acts of domestic violence or acts of repeat violence.

However, if the injunction has been dismissed, lifted, or has expired, you may be eligible for licensure.

A copy of the document issued by the court evidencing the dismissal, lifting, or expiration of the injunction must be submitted with your application. Upon receipt of this documentation, your application will be further reviewed to determine your eligibility for licensure. If additional information is required, you will be notified in writing.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

colsnipe wrote:

it all depends on the data is tweaked. if the data is tweaked to state that all shootings result in homicides or that a portion of the shooting had mal-intent. sometimes the shooting can be legit and clean; yet the LEOs will state that there was no clear reason for the shooting and that the shooting was not justified.

Just remember, that all data can be skewed to fit someones agenda. the same with polls, statistics...etc...

No Disrespect intended, just a clarification of the information. Alessandra_Deux you have wonderful posts and are quite informative so thanks for taking the time to get this information.

I found the NPR article that was cited in the article linked above:

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/02/167984117/-stand-your-ground-linked-to-increase-in-homicide

Thank you for the advice. :)

Thank you Alessandra.

What I found missing from this research is how many homicides the SYG law may have prevented? I understand it may be difficult to gather the statistics, however it should be included when examining the law and/or its effectiveness.

Lash I have not yet looked at the links provided.
I have to wonder, are the home invasions included in this?
For sure, that would be a case of SYG, IMO.

I like the children have been trained in using a handgun.
A couple of cases where the children have protected the family, themselves, etc. when burglars broke in. Shame to put a child in that position but glad the kids are alive.
(A recent case, the girl hid in the closet and dialed 911. When the burglar attempted opening the closet door, she shot him !)

http://app1.licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/firearms/prequal_questions.aspx

Thanks for the link, colsnide! That is most helpful in determining who may be eligible for a CCW permit in Florida. Do all states post their CCL/CCW permit requirements on the internet?

I don't see how GZ honestly would be eligible for a CCW permit.

Reviewing notes:
GZ was convicted of interfering/assaulting an officer. It was reduced to a misdemeanor.
The RO for violence against the former gf: I did not read of that ever going to trial nor of a conviction, sentencing. Was GZ arrested in that case?

Fla.'s 'Stand Your Ground' Law Protects People with Violent Pasts

http://www.cpcwd.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=64:flas-stand-your-ground-law-protects-people-with-violent-pasts&lang=en

Alessandra_Deux wrote:Fla.'s 'Stand Your Ground' Law Protects People with Violent Pasts

http://www.cpcwd.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=64:flas-stand-your-ground-law-protects-people-with-violent-pasts&lang=en

Wow. Thanks, Alessandra. Interesting stats at the link.

" Nearly 60 percent of those who claimed self-defense had been arrested at least once before the day they killed someone.

. More than 30 of those defendants, about one in three, had been accused of violent crimes, including assault, battery or robbery. Dozens had drug offenses on their records.

. Killers have invoked "stand your ground" even after repeated run-ins with the law. Forty percent had three arrests or more. Dozens had at least four arrests.

. More than a third of the defendants had previously been in trouble for threatening someone with a gun or illegally carrying a weapon."

" All told, 119 people are known to have killed someone and invoked "stand your ground." Those people have been arrested 327 times in incidents involving violence, property crimes, drugs, weapons or probation violations. That does not include more than 100 traffic violations and other minor arrests not considered in the analysis."

--- GZ is going for self defense rather than SYG, right?
Not too sure of the differences in the defenses he has offered.

Easy to walk with a SYG:

" The Times analysis found that 67 percent of all defendants who invoked the law went free. For defendants who had at least one arrest, the success rate dropped to 59 percent. Serial law-breakers — those with three or more arrests — walked free only 45 percent of the time."

"People who've had brushes with the law or people who've been in trouble are more streetwise. They're more inclined to use this law, to hide behind it, and abuse this law."

http://www.cpcwd.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=64:flas-stand-your-ground-law-protects-people-with-violent-pasts&lang=en

Freckles wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:Fla.'s 'Stand Your Ground' Law Protects People with Violent Pasts

http://www.cpcwd.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=64:flas-stand-your-ground-law-protects-people-with-violent-pasts&lang=en

Wow. Thanks, Alessandra. Interesting stats at the link.

" Nearly 60 percent of those who claimed self-defense had been arrested at least once before the day they killed someone.

. More than 30 of those defendants, about one in three, had been accused of violent crimes, including assault, battery or robbery. Dozens had drug offenses on their records.

. Killers have invoked "stand your ground" even after repeated run-ins with the law. Forty percent had three arrests or more. Dozens had at least four arrests.

. More than a third of the defendants had previously been in trouble for threatening someone with a gun or illegally carrying a weapon."

" All told, 119 people are known to have killed someone and invoked "stand your ground." Those people have been arrested 327 times in incidents involving violence, property crimes, drugs, weapons or probation violations. That does not include more than 100 traffic violations and other minor arrests not considered in the analysis."

--- GZ is going for self defense rather than SYG, right?
Not too sure of the differences in the defenses he has offered.

Hi Freckles,

The hearing the judge set aside for 45 days before the trial is an immunity hearing under Stand Your Ground law.


Procedures: How is Prosecutorial Immunity Pursued?

Florida’s Stand Your Ground law provides potential immunity from prosecution for an accused who can establish (by appropriate legal procedures) that his or her actions fell within the purview of the statute. To understand how “Stand Your Ground” immunity works, one has to understand the nature of a self-defense claim and how such a claim is typically raised in a criminal proceeding.

Self-defense is a type of affirmative defense that operates to avoid (or cancel) the legal effect of a violent act (such as a homicide), which would ordinarily subject the accused to criminal liability. In a self-defense claim, the defendant admits the truth of the essential act (i.e. that he or she committed a homicide or other violence against a person), but justifies the act by claiming that it was necessary to save him- or herself from death, great bodily harm, or other unlawful uses of force. In the context of a homicide, a defendant claiming self-defense essentially says: “Yes, I killed. But I did not murder (commit an unlawful killing) because, under the facts and circumstances, my acts were legally justifiable.” Under common law and in most criminal cases today, the question of justifiable self-defense is a factual question for the jury to resolve at trial. The jury is the “fact-finder.” They decide whether the act was sufficiently justified so as to insulate the accused from criminal liability and punishment.

~Snipped~

The procedures for asserting prosecutorial immunity under the “Stand Your Ground” law are outlined in Peterson v. State, 983 So. 2d 27, 29 (Fla. 1st DCA 2008), a Florida First District Court of Appeal decision. The Petersen decision definitively established that Section 776.032 was created by the Florida Legislature to establish a “true immunity” and not merely an affirmative defense. The Court stated that, when immunity under the law is properly raised by a defendant, the trial court (at a hearing) must decide the matter by confronting and weighing only factual disputes. Petersen held that a defendant may raise the question of statutory immunity pre-trial and, when such claim is raised, the trial court must determine whether the defendant has shown by a preponderance of the evidence that immunity attaches. Unlike a motion to dismiss, the trial court may not deny a motion for immunity simply because factual disputes exist.

http://www.husseinandwebber.com/stand_your_ground.html

Freckles wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:Fla.'s 'Stand Your Ground' Law Protects People with Violent Pasts

http://www.cpcwd.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=64:flas-stand-your-ground-law-protects-people-with-violent-pasts&lang=en

Wow. Thanks, Alessandra. Interesting stats at the link.

" Nearly 60 percent of those who claimed self-defense had been arrested at least once before the day they killed someone.

. More than 30 of those defendants, about one in three, had been accused of violent crimes, including assault, battery or robbery. Dozens had drug offenses on their records.

. Killers have invoked "stand your ground" even after repeated run-ins with the law. Forty percent had three arrests or more. Dozens had at least four arrests.

. More than a third of the defendants had previously been in trouble for threatening someone with a gun or illegally carrying a weapon."

" All told, 119 people are known to have killed someone and invoked "stand your ground." Those people have been arrested 327 times in incidents involving violence, property crimes, drugs, weapons or probation violations. That does not include more than 100 traffic violations and other minor arrests not considered in the analysis."

--- GZ is going for self defense rather than SYG, right?
Not too sure of the differences in the defenses he has offered.

That is SCARY!!!
Also, SCARY...(snipped from above link)

"The legislators wrote this law envisioning honest assertions of self-defense, not an immunity being seized mostly by criminal defendants trying to lie their way out of a murder," said Kendall Coffey, a former U.S. attorney from South Florida.
Coffey said the most troubling part about habitual offenders using the law is that their experience may have taught them how to manipulate the system.
"People who've been through the legal system are going to be more seasoned to using the law to their advantage," Coffey said. "And it doesn't take a master of fiction to write in a few lines of the script to turn a homicide into a stand your ground case."

The only plus in GZ's case, IMO, is that he gave too many conflicting versions in his script...
I hope the TRUTH comes out and JUSTICE is served appropriately in this case.
Since GZ stated on Hannity "It was God's PLAN", hopefully, God's PLAN includes him rotting in jail! JMO

How is it possible for so many 'repeat offenders' to obtain CCW's?
Or, does that not matter if the 'homicide' was 'justifiable' under SYG?

Thanks for the refresh of my mind, Alessandra.
For some reason, I thought the matter had been resolved.

Yeah, it is scary!

Two new videos from LLMPapa

Wagner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOQnc6wQDDg

From HIM?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTPr9xbSX68

Maybe Alessandra(?) can post the videos, I only know how to post links...
Sorry!

KimmyK wrote:Two new videos from LLMPapa

Wagner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOQnc6wQDDg

From HIM?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTPr9xbSX68

Maybe Alessandra(?) can post the videos, I only know how to post links...
Sorry!

KimmyK, I posted the videos for you.

Thank You Alessandra!

Kimmy,
Thanks for sharing the vids. They reminded me of something so I am sharing a link:

Love his voice!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHKzn8aHyXg

Freckles wrote:Kimmy,
Thanks for sharing the vids. They reminded me of something so I am sharing a link:

Love his voice!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHKzn8aHyXg

Thanks Freckles!
That video made me think of 'being taught"
GZ had criminal justice training, correct?

Reading over at FL, they mentioned one of the witnesses stating GZ had 'short' sleeves!

"Witness says Hispanic man was wearing a short sleeved shirt. After he got up he walked toward her window and he placed his hand over his forehead as if peering off into the distance. She said that someone ran down the sidewalk toward the person with the flashlight. She says that person was not a police officer.

Again – a short-sleeved shirt."

Strange Issue: ORourke says Zimmerman was wearing a shirt and jeans.

Did GZ leave his coat elsewhere???
Did they DNA test the INSIDE of GZ's coat (sleeves) for DNA?

Just very weird, b/c if Trayvon's blood was only/mostly (let's say), on GZ's arms, he washed up at SPD,
thus there went that evidence! Possibly, it could have transferred to the inside of his coat sleeves, IMO.
Just a thought, not sure how true the 'short sleeve' theory is, I haven't tried to research that info yet.

Also, could explain the GSR on the back(?) of GZ's coat?? Transferred when he put his coat back on? IDK.

Another interesting tidbit: (FL)
"Question: He says Zimmerman was cuffed the whole time. Now, if Fogen had his red jacket on and a long sleeved tee-shirt underneath, how did he get blood all over his arms? Fogen told the female police officer that he had no wounds to his arms and she said it was good that his jacket and shirt protected him from injury."

Just thinking, it would be interesting to go back thru the doc dump and see if this info is true or not.

ETA: Was GZ 'smart' enough to put his coat back on, making a 'positive ID' of who's who a little harder?
The color of apparel could be a little more difficult to distinguish in the dark, expecially darker colors, IMO
Wasn't it somewhere SPD allowed GZ to go back to his vehicle to retreive his keys? (grab his coat?)
Sorry, no links regarding GZ going back to his vehicle for keys.

Kimmy,
You bring up some valid points. It will be interesting to see if prosecution draws this out from the evidence they DO have. I am most curious as to why there was no blood of consequence upon GZ's clothing especially as it was a close shot. I have heard EMTs have given statements re the wiping of blood from GZ' arms and from that, since there is no evidence of blood on the jacket he wore to the SPRD (seen in the arrival vid) one has to conclude the jacket was not on when the blood splatter occurred--- from the gunshot to TM AND the injuries to GZ' face/head as well.

Do you know which witness made the comment re the short sleeve shirt?
That is most intriguing.

Healing Fine
GZ's head injury photo's
Snipped-
A picture a neighbor claims to have taken on his cell phone aproximately 3 minutes after the shooting, the surveillance video from the Sanford Police Department aproximately 30 minutes later, and an evidence photo from SPD said to be taken several hours later.

http://healingfine.com/2012/06/180/

Freckles wrote:Kimmy,
You bring up some valid points. It will be interesting to see if prosecution draws this out from the evidence they DO have. I am most curious as to why there was no blood of consequence upon GZ's clothing especially as it was a close shot. I have heard EMTs have given statements re the wiping of blood from GZ' arms and from that, since there is no evidence of blood on the jacket he wore to the SPRD (seen in the arrival vid) one has to conclude the jacket was not on when the blood splatter occurred--- from the gunshot to TM AND the injuries to GZ' face/head as well.

Do you know which witness made the comment re the short sleeve shirt?
That is most intriguing.

Freckles, unfortunately, I don't know which witness, although this is not the first I heard/read of it.

I will have to do a little research. Where's Ellejay??? She was the greatest in knowing the links! FAST!
We MISS you Ellejay!!! I certainly hope all is well with her.

Judge Nelson: Change George Zimmerman’s Court Date”

Petition to change the February 5, 2013 court date: it would have been Trayvon's 18th Birthday.
How sad.

Sign petition at:
http://www.change.org/petitions/judge-nelson-change-george-zimmerman-s-court-date#share

ETA: Could be A VERY POWERFUL date to be IN court.
I was just passing the info along, maybe the family would feel Trayvon would WANT to keep the date?

KimmyK wrote:

Freckles wrote:Kimmy,
You bring up some valid points. It will be interesting to see if prosecution draws this out from the evidence they DO have. I am most curious as to why there was no blood of consequence upon GZ's clothing especially as it was a close shot. I have heard EMTs have given statements re the wiping of blood from GZ' arms and from that, since there is no evidence of blood on the jacket he wore to the SPRD (seen in the arrival vid) one has to conclude the jacket was not on when the blood splatter occurred--- from the gunshot to TM AND the injuries to GZ' face/head as well.

Do you know which witness made the comment re the short sleeve shirt?
That is most intriguing.

Freckles, unfortunately, I don't know which witness, although this is not the first I heard/read of it.

I will have to do a little research. Where's Ellejay??? She was the greatest in knowing the links! FAST!
We MISS you Ellejay!!! I certainly hope all is well with her.

Witness Interview

Page 17 - Second paragraph:

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

KimmyK wrote:

Freckles, unfortunately, I don't know which witness, although this is not the first I heard/read of it.

I will have to do a little research. Where's Ellejay??? She was the greatest in knowing the links! FAST!
We MISS you Ellejay!!! I certainly hope all is well with her.

Witness Interview

Page 17 - Second paragraph:

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

Thank you Alessandra!
I got sidetracked regarding info from another site, where servatugughp (great investigative work, btw), finds in one of Santiago's reports (Officer Santiago's report on page 16 of 183 in the discovery),

Santiago says, "I observed a key chain lying on the grass near the T portion of the walkway, a black flashlight lying on the grass just east of the key chain."

a 'flashlight' that "disappered" but is known to have been sold by Sam's Club as a two pack.
It can be seen in the crime scene photographs, next to the trash can, on the close up views looking 'down' the T toward Trayvon's body. What happened to the 'second' Rocky tactical flashlight???
Anyhow, gotta run, need to try and get a few thing done... I would rather be... BBL

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

Why don't we take a look at each of these docs/statements and record what is essential from the doc?

Page 8: SPD Officer Lynch:

--Asked Officer Smith to photograph the two "small cuts" on back of GZ' head;
--Lynch saw NO injuries to GZ' nose

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

Johnson's report:
Page 7: Officers Johnson, Smith, Ayala; Sgt.Raimundo:
-- Ayala and Raimundo: CPR on TM;
-- Johnson set up crime scene tape;
--Smith has Zimmerman detained in back of Smith's unit;
--Fire Control arrives; treats TM then GZ
--Smith drove GZ to SPD; Johnson followed
--Johnson patted GZ down in the salley port; said nothing to GZ at the time or after

-- Smith uncuffed GZ in interview room;
--GZ asked for water, tissue;
-- Agent Batchelor present for interview.

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

Page 6: Officers Davila, Mead, Ayala

--- GZ seated in back of Smith's unit, feet hanging out door;
--- GZ was cuffed;
---Davila helped with crime scene tape;
---Witness approached Davila and was asked to wait;
--- Ayala and Mead handed out witness forms;
---Davila had 2-3 prior contacts (interactions?) with GZ;
--- Davila had responded to GZ in relation to unknown, suspicious individuals.

--- Agent Batchelor present for interview (taking of report).

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

Page 5: Sgt Ciesla, Smith

--Arrived at scene and saw two officers attempting CPR on TM;plastic bags were used to attempt to seal the wound (chest);

-- Saw a can of ice tea but did not determine where or when it arrived;

-- Assisted Officer Smith in crime scene processing;

--Saw flashlight illuminated on the ground near the "T";

--Prepared supplemental report;

--- Agent Batchelor present during taking of report.

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

Page 4: Officer Broderick, Smith

-- On duty and heard call go out;
-- Upon arrival, observed Smith walking GZ to patrol car;
*** Strange others were already present when he responded so quickly.

-- Call for gloves for CPR; Broderick ran to his unit and retrieved gloves;
*** Don't most units carry gloves?

-- Left after scene stabilized;
-- No further interactions with GZ;

--Observed GZ' head cut and he was bloodied.
*** Where was he cut? Where was he bloodied?

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

Page 3: Officer Bernosky

-- Arrived after scene was stabilized; assisted with crime scene tape;
-- Ran two car tag ids as victim had no ID; belonged to people in living complex;
*** Have to wonder who the cars belonged to?

---Returned to assignment; no supplemental reports

Agent Batchelor present.

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

Page 2: Officers Richard Ayala, Smith, Raimundo, Mead, Wagner;

--Upon arrival, saw Smith had two individuals at gunpoint:
----TM face down on ground, hands under the body;
---- Smith yelled at TM to remove his hands;
---- Smith illuminated TM with flashlight attached to gun;
---- Raimundo checked TM for pulse, found none;
---- TM flipped over, gunshot observed on torso under photo button TM was wearing;

--- Ayala obtained plastic bag from civilian and attempted to seal the wound, begin CPR;
---Sgt McCoy took over compressions; Ayala attempted air seal;

--- Officers Mead and Wagner gave Ayala filled out statement forms.

Agent Batchelor present.




(Got problems with this. Ayala does not state and does not file a supplemental report:
1. When did he leave?
2. When did others arrive?
3. Who gave him the plastic bag?
4. Who the second person was Smith was holding a gun on?
5. Officer fails to mention ANYTHING re GZ.
6. What is with the "filled out statement forms" given to Ayala?
7. Who is this agent who is present at many but not all of the statement interviews? )

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

Page 1: Investigator Villanlona, GZ, Serino;

--- Present in cubicle across from Serino during interview with GZ;
--- Stated Serino interviewed GZ regarding portions of the 911 taped call;
---Serino introduced GZ to her but she did not participate in the interview;
---She had no prior contact with GZ;
--- GZ had gauze bandage on back of his head.

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

Page 10: Sgt McCoy; Officers Smith, Johnson

---Observed Smith with GZ in back of Smith's car with feet hanging out door;
---Went to Martin: Saw Ayala putting on surgical glove, placing bag on chest wound; took over chest compressions after Ayala could not locate a CPR mask;
---Fire Dept arrive: McCoy went to Smith's patrol car;
---Saw handgun in front seat;
---Had Fire Control check on GZ;
---Instructed Smith to transport GZ to station and Johnson to follow;
---Took no statements
---Attempted comforting an older witness who was freaking out;
***** There was a witness to this crime?

--- No further contact with GZ
FDLE Agent Batchelor present during taking of statement.

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

Page 11: Officer Mead, Ayala

--- Fired department, Ayala, and a sgt were present, doing CPR on TM;
--- Helped with crime scene tape;
---Took 3 or more statement forms;
---Saw flashlight at intersection of 2 sidewalks when he arrived;
---Saw GZ in custody; GZ' head bleeding, nose injured;

---Mead dealt with GZ prior when GZ reported open doors and houses; suspicious persons GZ had lost sight of; GZ had always been on foot before;

FDLE Agent Batchelor present.

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

Page 12: Sgt Raimundo, Officers Smith

--- Parked near Smith's unit;
--- Checked TM, no pulse;
---Got bag from Asian male and started CPR on TM;
---Relieved of CPR by Sgt McCoy;
---Felt the can of tea in hoodie; did not remove it;
---Prepared Supplement report.

FDLE Agent Batchelor present.

Featuring: LLMPapa does Officer Timmy Smith in Trayvon Martin Murder Case
January 6, 2013
Our beloved LLMPapa takes on Officer Timmy Smith and finds a Chiapet bearing a familiar face

http://frederickleatherman.com/category/featuring/

I hope FL doesn't mind, but people need to see these videos, IMO!

Another good one by LLMPapa!
Wrong Pocket?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_TJDGmA_Rg&feature=player_embedded

Featuring: LLMPapa Does SPD Officer Adam Johnson
LLMPapa is on a roll. Now he does SPD Officer Adam Johnson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JYPAN42FZU&feature=player_embedded

http://frederickleatherman.com/