Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Puzzler wrote:How do you have a hanging without an inverted V showing up?

Only a portion of the thin red line was evident because the rest of the thin red line was covered by the ligature - the thicker rope.

Precisely.

ThirdEye wrote:

vegret wrote:^^^Yeppers it was inconclusive. He was to take another but....also Nina Romano was to submit herself for a LDT. Alas, that never happened....

When all the evidence in the room proved that Rebecca Zahau killed herself, there was no need for more polygraph tests.

The polygraphs were requested merely hours after Rebecca's death. The death was suspicious from the beginning. Regardless of what any of us believe happened LE needed to rule out foul play. That is where the split begins. The polygraphs were reasonable and your statement was mean spirited. After you just asked about this forum allowing people to speak about people grieving in a horrible way. Come on...

Lash wrote:

Jessica2 wrote:

Lash wrote:

ThirdEye wrote:

HinkySD wrote:Dina was spotted by an eye witness acting frantically in the driveway at 1043 Ocean Blvd minutes before Rebecca's scream for help.

Nice job, HinkySD! You managed to get two rumors in one sentence! Neither of those things are true - Dina was not at the mansion that night, and the scream was from teenagers on the beach.

Hi Thirdeye! I have to disagree.

Factoid: Hinky is not exactly spreading rumors about DS. There was a scream, but it cannot be identified.

Fact: DS was seen by a witness who was stationed on his bicycle in front on the mansion. He was waiting on his family to catch up with him. He spotted DS at the front door of the mansion. SDSO lied about having DS on video the night of RZ death. She was tracked by the ping of her phone, not seen on video. Inconsistencies.

@Lash- SDSO lied about having Dina on video where? At the hospital or at the mansion? Wow, I never read that Dina was on video anywhere.(Even as an untrue statement)

Jessica - I believe it was stated at the SDSO press conference that they had both parents on surveillance video at Rady's hospital. It was the alibi for both DS and JS given by SDSO until AB received the case file. I have found the below snip.

Snip- http://www.760kfmb.com/story/16068012/mixed-dna-all-over-zahau-death-scene-some-evidence-not-tested

Attorney Bremner said Jonah Shacknai is seen on hospital surveillance video on the night of Zahau's death, but Dina Shacknai is not.

Sheriff Gore confirmed as much during his news conference.

"We don't have her (Dina Shacknai) on surveillance tape," Gore confirmed. "Her position was determined thorough GPS triangulation on her cell phone, which put her in the vicinity of Rady Children's Hospital."

@Lash-Thank you so much:)

Jessica2 wrote:

Jessica2 wrote:

Puzzler wrote:Autopsy Report indicate "two" red lines around Rebecca's neck.

One thin horizontal line.

One thicker line made by the rope, with an inverted "V" at the back of her ear.

How did that horizontal line get there?

@Puzzler- I cannot seem to find either of these points. On which page of the autopsy report did you read them?

@vegret- I am SO SO SO sorry, you did not write that!!! I apologize.

Seems you 'apologize' alot for your posting misinformation.

Geez...some of you need to lighten up and be a little more respectful. Don't bother responding, I won't engage.

vegret wrote:

Jessica2 wrote:

Jessica2 wrote:

Puzzler wrote:Autopsy Report indicate "two" red lines around Rebecca's neck.

One thin horizontal line.

One thicker line made by the rope, with an inverted "V" at the back of her ear.

How did that horizontal line get there?

@Puzzler- I cannot seem to find either of these points. On which page of the autopsy report did you read them?

@vegret- I am SO SO SO sorry, you did not write that!!! I apologize.

Seems you 'apologize' alot for your posting misinformation.

:P :) No really, I apologize.

@ Jessica2
Where you feel there is need is a need to apologize,
I respect you for doing so.

Marica wrote:@ Jessica2
Where you feel there is need is a need to apologize,
I respect you for doing so.

@Marica-Thank you for what you wrote:) I kept addressing a question and answering it as having come from vegret. vegret never wrote that, someone else did. It was my mistake, so I apologized for it.

@ Jessica2 Nothing more you can do. Mistakes are easy to make when there are quotes within quotes within quotes. I have gotten so I just skip over the multiples because they only confuse me.

I've lost track of who thinks/feels what. While there are two sides of any issue, I don't get why ppl tend to get angry atthose whose ideas differ. It sure doesn't help sort out the details and find truth. I strongly doubt Rebecca hanged herself,but I have no clue who might have done this or why. The only way I can see anyof the Shacknai family involved is if they had reason to believe Rebecca murdered Max. Something isn't right about this whole thing.

HinkySD wrote:Jonah Shacknai was at 1043 Ocean Blvd that night.

Jonah left RCH between 1:00am-7:00am to return home and supervise the coverup. After staging the scene with Adam he showers at the mansion and returns to RCH. As previously arranged, Adam texts Jonah on cue at sunrise. Jonah instantly starts heralding 'Rebecca is dead' .... even when Adam is supposedly busy saving her life. Jonah does not question Rebecca's death. Jonah never strays from heralding that Rebecca committed suicide even though he supposedly knows nothing about the scene. Jonah does not go home to help Rebecca because he has just returned from 1043 Ocean Blvd and knows that Rebecca has been murdered and is dead. Jonah lies to police telling them he has not left his son's bedside. Jonah hides behind the SHIELD of Max's grave condition.

IIRC, at some point JS changed his story about when he was by the bedside - I never heard "why" he changed his story - he could have been confronted by LE with evidence that he wasn't in the hospital and JS acquiesced and changed his story.

However, Sheriff Gore repeatedly told the public that JS was by his son's bedside all night; Gore never corrected that publicly.

Rebecca had no defensive wounds:
Rebecca did have injuries to her body that were not due to a hanging: 4 subdural hematomas and marks/abrasions all over her back and upper hips.

HinkySD wrote:

ThirdEye wrote:

Lash wrote:
Factoid: Hinky is not exactly spreading rumors about DS. There was a scream, but it cannot be identified.

Fact: DS was seen by a witness who was stationed on his bicycle in front on the mansion. He was waiting on his family to catch up with him. He spotted DS at the front door of the mansion. SDSO lied about having DS on video the night of RZ death. She was tracked by the ping of her phone, not seen on video. Inconsistencies.

The scream was investigated by police and found not to be credible. Why did this "witness" not go to police? Was this another "fact" that was taken off a comments page? That is where many of the rumors in this case started. Was the witness InParadise?

The witness was credible. The witness did report the scream to police. Nice that you are here to discredit the evidence in the Rebecca Zahau murder. (If you are saying that poster InParadise started a rumor you are wrong. )

Police DID NOT want the public to know about the neighbor hearing the scream.

IIRC, after P.I. Paul Ciolino did some investigation in this case, he and Anne Bremner were on TV on an evening show (JVM...I believe) and they said that one of the witnesses talked with LE "twice". Also, said they had sworn affidavits of their statements.

We cannot "believe" all that was said at the SDSO press conferences; after all, we now know that Adam's LDT results were inconclusive and that JS was "not" at his son's bedside the night Rebecca died. Even though Sheriff Gore repeatedly stated otherwise.

Jessica2 wrote:

Jessica2 wrote:

Puzzler wrote:Autopsy Report indicate "two" red lines around Rebecca's neck.

One thin horizontal line.

One thicker line made by the rope, with an inverted "V" at the back of her ear.

How did that horizontal line get there?

@Puzzler- I cannot seem to find either of these points. On which page of the autopsy report did you read them?

@vegret- I am SO SO SO sorry, you did not write that!!! I apologize.

That is what "I" wrote and it's in the Autopsy Report. Bringing forth this post by ThirdEye:

by ThirdEye on Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:44 pm

.My apologies, Jessica2 and vegret - I found on pg. 9 of the autopsy report:

"Posteriorly, there is a thin, parallel, red line situated 1/8 inch below the dried ligature furrow for a distance of 2 /12 inches and spearated from it by an area of pallor"

So it was 2 1/2" long and thin (which I would take to mean less than 1/8 of an inch) which means that it did not go all the way around her neck, so it was not from a necklace. It does not sound significant, IMO.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/may/29/attorney-requests-new-probe-of-zahau-hanging/

Attorney requests new probe of Coronado hanging
May 29, 2012

Marica wrote:@ Jessica2 Nothing more you can do.
Mistakes are easy to make when there
are quotes within quotes within quotes.
I have gotten so I just skip over the
multiples because they only confuse me.

I've lost track of who thinks/feels what.
While there are two sides of any issue,
I don't get why ppl tend to get angry at
those whose ideas differ. It sure doesn't
help sort out the details and find truth.
I strongly doubt Rebecca hanged herself,
but I have no clue who might have done
this or why. The only way I can see any
of the Shacknai family involved is if they
had reason to believe Rebecca murdered
Max. Something isn't right about this whole
thing.

@ Marica- Thank you so much for what you wrote, you are incredibly nice, it means a lot and I appreciate it:)

Puzzler wrote:http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/may/29/attorney-requests-new-probe-of-zahau-hanging/

Attorney requests new probe of Coronado hanging
May 29, 2012

Well, about time! Hope to hear more of this in the near future.

BTW, Can't get the link to load. Will use the web to see what is out there.

Thank you, Puzzler!!!

It was all I need to know!

Zahau’s family continues to suspect foul play in her death.

This must be a blow to the people that posted that the Zahaus had changed their minds and were no longer pursuing the case.

Praying for the AG to re-open the case. Ann Rule's book, movie sure to come, and justice (either judicial or vigilante) for all those guilty of murder and coverup.

Going on 11 months now. No one is giving up.

You know, with all of the Shacknai/Romano camp's wailing, Jonah can only blame himself for the public outcry:

JONAH AND ADAM SUICIDE SPIN TIMELINE. Let's look at Day One:

6:48AM - Adam calls 911 and reports "FOUND A GIRL… HUNG HERSELF"

6:48AM - Adam sends TEXT message to Jonah "YOUR GIRLFRIEND HUNG HERSELF" (exact wording unknown)

7:00AM - Jonah calls Dina at hospital and tells her "REBECCA HUNG HERSELF"

7:00AM - Jonah arrives at hospital

7:00AM - Law enforcement arrives at Jonah's home, finds Rebecca lying on grass in courtyard nude, gagged, hands tied behind her back, ankles bound.

@ 8:00AM - Jonah calls Rebecca's sister Mary, tells her husband Doug 'REBECCA KILLED HERSELF"

8:30AM - Coronado Police Dept calls in San Diego Sheriff's Dept

@10:00AM - Capt Tim Curran states to media: "The woman died violently… the scene indicates some type of very suspicious circumstances."

@2:00PM - Investigators use a search warrant to enter the property to finish their probe.

@7:00PM - Defense Attorney Paul Pfingst, ex-DA, arrives at crime scene, says he was hired by someone connected with the investigation

@8:00PM - ME Lucas arrives 13+ hours after Adam's 911 call. Rebecca's nude body had been left exposed and uncovered, visible in the public courtyard, rotting in the hot summer sun for 13+ hours, thus allowing critical physical evidence to be destroyed.

For those interested, below are links to transcripts:

Transcript SDSO Press Conference September 2, 2011
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/hdtYj

Transcript SDSO Press Briefing Response to Dr Phil Show November 17, 2011
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/yea8bh

^^^^^^^^^Thank you Eileen ^^^^^^^^

The SDSO press conference gave several details to the public about Rebecca's case that were later found to be false or inconsistent with documents that were released roughly two weeks after the press conference.

The very first day the public was told by a LE captain that a "woman died violently… the scene indicates some type of very suspicious circumstances." That statement left the public with questions and made room for speculation. Was a murderer roaming free? The pictures in the media of Rebecca's body on the lawn were horrifying.

What did LE expect Rebecca's family and the public to believe when the documents told a different story than the press conference? When a different picture was painted that day by LE and then allowing the image of her dead body to be captured in the minds of the public? I don't understand why questioning the integrity of the investigation would not be expected after the discrepancies. How can any family be asked to accept this answer with all the false information?

Julie wrote:I haven't kept up with this case as much as most of you, but what never made sense to me is if a woman is going to commit suicide, why would she hang herself outside, naked? That makes 0 sense to me. Naked? I don' think so. Hanging? Indoors makes more sense. Bound & gagged? Why? What would be the point anyway? I'm not condoning suicide, but I always figured an overdose would be the least painful way to go.

It just doesn't make sense that this is a suicide.

And I don't understand how an inverted V would only be indicitive of a suicide, and not a murder.

And just a reminder, play nice, no snarkiness.

Snarky comments will be removed even if they have vital information in them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ITA, it doesn't make sense. I was eating and sleeping this case before when it was being discussed on a daily basis. It is the simple glance at the case, imo, that disproves suicide. Of course! If someone were determined to commit suicide this way, they COULD but that doesn't a suicide make. But then, NO... the gag makes no sense. Imo, to conclude that Rebecca killed herself is to ignore and discount all the physical evidence to the contrary. To believe suicide you have to "just believe it can be done" ... to disbelieve you just have to look at the evidence, imo. What will always be most evident to me is this:
The gag. Nobody would shove their shirt sleeve down their own throat and wrap the sleeve 3 times around their own neck (and over their own long hair) before hopping (hopping!?) over to a balcony to attempt to throw themselves over to their death. How could they even BREATH while they tried to do that? Nobody cuts off their oxygen and then begins the rest of the preparations. Certainly didn't do the "shirt trick" AFTER the tying of the hands and ankles so... how can this be done? It can't. Every other item to disprove suicide is all the more collaboration for FURTHER proving it was murder. But, I stopped my thinking speculation after always returning to that one fact.... the gag. That's all I need to know that this was murder. Everything else beyond the gag is good for a trial but not necessary for my own conclusion to be made.

Adam moved the gag... so, even this holds true for me... nobody would shove any part of a shirt into their own mouth (no matter how deeply or not deeply) and then wrap the shirt around their head 3 times and tie knots to secure it in place... and then try to do anything requiring oxygen to do... which is anything at all.

What I cannot understand is WHY the ME
took 13 hours to arrive on scene.
And why, if the police needed that time
to investigate, was there not some sort
shielding of the body, if not from view,
at least from the direct heat of the sun.
Not this has a damn thing to do with was
this suicide or murder, but it sure causes
me to feel the handling of the situation
was less than professionally attended to.
THAT makes me question the abilities of
the investigative authority on scene.
Was this concluded to be suicide to cover
up sloppy police work?

I recall that Valhall did her own little re enactment
of the shirt around the neck. Val was close in size
to Rebecca, and she used a similar shirt to attempt
this. Val indicated that wrapping the shirt as it was wrapped around Rebecca's neck was so tight she
couldn't breath. I'm sure another Hinkster will recall
the details better than I, but as I recall the shirt was
so tight Val was near panic before she could remove it.

I so wish we had access to the many tests and break
down of information re: the rope, and other measurements. When it came to figuring Val knew what she was doing. I can hardly ad 2 & 2, so it was difficult
to follow the information Val shared with us.

If Rebecca hanged herself, she was one very well
organized woman.

Hi Marica - Ann - TX was kind enough to post Val's t-shirt video on the previous page (page 8). I have also tried wrapping a men's large t-shirt around my neck in the same fashion and had same result: couldn't breath, was horrible. FWIW

Bringing this forward

Ann - Tx wrote:

Ann - Tx wrote:
Rebecca Zahau case: The Gag, another impossibility

Posted on October 11, 2011 by Valhall
The Hinky Meter

We’re going to continue to work through demonstrating, both with words, engineering analysis and visual demonstrations, that the things the San Diego Sheriff’s Office has claimed Rebecca pulled off in what they have declared a suicide of epic proportions, just couldn’t have been done. Our last video was demonstrating that a flip over the balcony railing was virtually impossible. This one centers on the t-shirt that law enforcement and the medical examiner claim was “loosely” wrapped around Rebecca’s neck and used as a gag. (Allegedly to keep her from being heard as she plummeted to her self-appointed death.)

Read more:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/10/11/rebecca-zahau-case-the-gag-another-impossibility/



Uploaded by TheHinkyMeter on Oct 11, 2011

Demonstration of how Rebecca Zahau could not have wrapped her size of t-shirt around her neck 3 times and then tie a double knot without causing unconsciousness.

Bumping!

Marcia- Thanks to Eileen we also have a few of Val's awesome articles!

Rebecca Zahau case_Suicide_8_23_11
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/ldCcbdi

Rebecca Zahau case_Suicide, really_9_6_11
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/cdMbli

Rebecca Zahau case_A simple case of leverage and math_9_7_11
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/admcvj

Rebecca Zahau case_The geometry in Rebecca’s fall_9_14_11
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/odIBA

Rebecca Zahau case_New documents_new footprints_9_21_11
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/udtvr

Rebecca Zahau case_Worth a thousand words_10_1_11
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/rdRnT

Rebecca Zahau case_So whats the hold up_10_21_11
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/hdyuv

vegret wrote:Bringing this forward

Ann - Tx wrote:

Ann - Tx wrote:
Rebecca Zahau case: The Gag, another impossibility

Posted on October 11, 2011 by Valhall
The Hinky Meter

We’re going to continue to work through demonstrating, both with words, engineering analysis and visual demonstrations, that the things the San Diego Sheriff’s Office has claimed Rebecca pulled off in what they have declared a suicide of epic proportions, just couldn’t have been done. Our last video was demonstrating that a flip over the balcony railing was virtually impossible. This one centers on the t-shirt that law enforcement and the medical examiner claim was “loosely” wrapped around Rebecca’s neck and used as a gag. (Allegedly to keep her from being heard as she plummeted to her self-appointed death.)

Read more:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/10/11/rebecca-zahau-case-the-gag-another-impossibility/




Uploaded by TheHinkyMeter on Oct 11, 2011

Demonstration of how Rebecca Zahau could not have wrapped her size of t-shirt around her neck 3 times and then tie a double knot without causing unconsciousness.

Bumping!

Respectfully, in this video the t shirt is not "loosely wrapped". It is tightly wrapped and of course she would lose consciousness.In my opinion, since what the ME said is what is documented, that would not be a "claim" it would be fact unless you can prove your claim that the t shirt was tightly wrapped.

Lash wrote:Marcia- Thanks to Eileen we also have a few of Val's awesome articles!

Rebecca Zahau case_Suicide_8_23_11
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/ldCcbdi

Rebecca Zahau case_Suicide, really_9_6_11
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/cdMbli

Rebecca Zahau case_A simple case of leverage and math_9_7_11
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/admcvj

Rebecca Zahau case_The geometry in Rebecca’s fall_9_14_11
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/odIBA

Rebecca Zahau case_New documents_new footprints_9_21_11
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/udtvr

Rebecca Zahau case_Worth a thousand words_10_1_11
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/rdRnT

Rebecca Zahau case_So whats the hold up_10_21_11
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/hdyuv

Lash - TY for the links

Tying that tee shirt so tightly around the neck - one's natural instinct would be like Val's - UNDO the tie.

If not, you would pass out....and...

How are you going to get yourself over a balcony rail while passed out?

Ann - Tx wrote:

Ann - Tx wrote:
Rebecca Zahau case: The Gag, another impossibility

Posted on October 11, 2011 by Valhall
The Hinky Meter

We’re going to continue to work through demonstrating, both with words, engineering analysis and visual demonstrations, that the things the San Diego Sheriff’s Office has claimed Rebecca pulled off in what they have declared a suicide of epic proportions, just couldn’t have been done. Our last video was demonstrating that a flip over the balcony railing was virtually impossible. This one centers on the t-shirt that law enforcement and the medical examiner claim was “loosely” wrapped around Rebecca’s neck and used as a gag. (Allegedly to keep her from being heard as she plummeted to her self-appointed death.)

Read more:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/10/11/rebecca-zahau-case-the-gag-another-impossibility/



Uploaded by TheHinkyMeter on Oct 11, 2011

Demonstration of how Rebecca Zahau could not have wrapped her size of t-shirt around her neck 3 times and then tie a double knot without causing unconsciousness.

Bumping!

Ann - TY for the video

Do any posters here live on Coronado or in the area and can tell us the latest on the Spreckels Mansion renovations?

Hinky's Mimi wrote:

Julie wrote:I haven't kept up with this case as much as most of you, but what never made sense to me is if a woman is going to commit suicide, why would she hang herself outside, naked? That makes 0 sense to me. Naked? I don' think so. Hanging? Indoors makes more sense. Bound & gagged? Why? What would be the point anyway? I'm not condoning suicide, but I always figured an overdose would be the least painful way to go.

It just doesn't make sense that this is a suicide.

And I don't understand how an inverted V would only be indicitive of a suicide, and not a murder.

And just a reminder, play nice, no snarkiness.

Snarky comments will be removed even if they have vital information in them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ITA, it doesn't make sense. I was eating and sleeping this case before when it was being discussed on a daily basis. It is the simple glance at the case, imo, that disproves suicide. Of course! If someone were determined to commit suicide this way, they COULD but that doesn't a suicide make. But then, NO... the gag makes no sense. Imo, to conclude that Rebecca killed herself is to ignore and discount all the physical evidence to the contrary. To believe suicide you have to "just believe it can be done" ... to disbelieve you just have to look at the evidence, imo. What will always be most evident to me is this:
The gag. Nobody would shove their shirt sleeve down their own throat and wrap the sleeve 3 times around their own neck (and over their own long hair) before hopping (hopping!?) over to a balcony to attempt to throw themselves over to their death. How could they even BREATH while they tried to do that? Nobody cuts off their oxygen and then begins the rest of the preparations. Certainly didn't do the "shirt trick" AFTER the tying of the hands and ankles so... how can this be done? It can't. Every other item to disprove suicide is all the more collaboration for FURTHER proving it was murder. But, I stopped my thinking speculation after always returning to that one fact.... the gag. That's all I need to know that this was murder. Everything else beyond the gag is good for a trial but not necessary for my own conclusion to be made.

When the enactment took place (after LE practiced and practiced): How long did it take to make all the ties to the hands and feet? Under this theory, how long was she without oxygen before she turned off the light, stumbled in the dark to the balcony, daintily hopped (lopsided) to the rail (being very careful not to leave too many prints or dirty her feet) and then rolled carefully over the rail?

For someone SO concerned with neatness, she sure made a mess on the door and with the two paintbrushes!
Never mind the blood she dripped PRIOR to this whole incident! (And why TWO paintbrushes, TWO knives, TWO sets of gloves? )

(Trying to recall the name of those ties. Were they half hitches, like used to tie up boats?)

Oh.... what was the purpose of the t-shirt?

The t-shirt was placed to lessen the pain from the rope!
HA RIGHT! I'm gong to jump off the balcony and break my neck, wouldn't want any rope burns!

Why was it wrapped around three times instead of just once?

A knot-tying fool was ON A ROLL!

Why was the shirt over the long slippery hair possibly allowing a slip out of the anticipated noose?

Somebody else tied the shirt around her neck!

Why was the shirt stuffed in her mouth?

Rebecca did not want to have ANOTHER outburst and scream for 'Help!' again.

If Rebecca wanted to be found hanging totally naked, why the neck shirt?

The naked symbolism vanishes when the shirt is put on.

As for the tightly wrapped T, Val was using one of her own shirts and attempting to wrap it around her neck as many times as it was wrapped around Rebecca. So this leaves one to wonder whose shirt it was. If it was loosely wrapped then it must have been a larger shirt than Rebecca's shirt would have been. Something about that shirt and the way it was placed really bothers me.

Marica wrote:As for the tightly wrapped T, Val was using one of her own shirts and attempting to wrap it around her neck as many times as it was wrapped around Rebecca. So this leaves one to wonder whose shirt it was. If it was loosely wrapped then it must have been a larger shirt than Rebecca's shirt would have been. Something about that shirt and the way it was placed really bothers me.

We never got much info on the tee.
We have speculated it was a sleep tee of hers but that was pure speculation.
DNA skin should have been picked up off that as well as the secretions there on the shirt and on the balcony deck.

Intentionally poor job of investigating, collecting evidence, preparing reports, and submission of evidence for forensics. Then again, I had heard it said, Coronado does not have a homicide division which may be setting the stage for plausibility negligence--- "We didn't know how". Perhaps this is why they wanted to go with suicide (that and property values might take a bitty dip) but the first reports are such the bell can not be unrung: Rebecca died a violent death!

What ever happened to people asking for help when something is obviously beyond their abilities to handle.
If it appeared to have been a violent death, then why not call on an agency accustomed to dealing with such situations.
I still can't get over the ME not showing up for 13 hours. I wonder... when was the ME notified? What delayed the ME's assessment?

Puzzler wrote:Autopsy Report indicate "two" red lines around Rebecca's neck.

One thin horizontal line.

One thicker line made by the rope, with an inverted "V" at the back of her ear.

How did that horizontal line get there?

@Puzzler-This information can be found on page 9 of Rebecca's autopsy report.
This is a really good question. Respectfully, in my opinion, as I explained the other day, one finding or two findings alone cannot be absolute in proving a definite suicide, so please keep that in mind.
In my opinion, inverted v ligature marks are more common in suicidal hangings, and homicidal hanging ligature mark would be horizontal and in front of the larynx.
The second line- I have learned since you asked this question, a thin red line is common because of congestion, and is usually seen above, below or along the groove of the ligature.

-ligature marks form an inverted v indicates the death was mostly a suicide and not a homicide because homicides do not have an inverted v mark
http://books.google.com/booksid=lqBFdHTRmkwC&pg=PA283&lpg=PA283&dq=hanging+homicide+vs+suicide+inverted+v+ligature+mark&source=bl&ots=9mhQgPTemM&sig=fEF3ytNvX8mKt8r3oC6f78svqNE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6fDKT5OrE6jH6gHOsfjyDw&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=hanging%20homicide%20vs%20suicide%20inverted%20v%20ligature%20mark&f=false
-"A totally horizontal depression which is uniformly deep is what would be expected from a homicidal ligature strangulation."
http://articles.mcall.com/1992-09-30/news/2864673_1_hangings-police-custody-ligature
-"Suicidal hanging typically causes a “caret” (inverted v) shaped ligature mark."
http://hightechchat.reocities.com/SoHo/opening/3630/part2/chap23.html
- http://books.google.com/books?id=_l_9peGFRz0C&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=inverted+v+shaped+ligature+in+hanging+death&source=bl&ots=uFX7XgXeWl&sig=ukL5aQeYWw0u1g154ywBF4qso8A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=n9nKT6rQDc-f6QHExdjqDw&ved=0CEsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=inverted%20v%20shaped%20ligature%20in%20hanging%20death&f=false (p.76)

Note: the following link contains very graphic photos
-"Suicidal hanging differs from homicidal hanging in that the loop around the neck in suicide rises to a point of suspension"
(inverted v mark) (Fig 49)
-"When the ligature is removed in suicidal hanging,a v shaped furrow can usually be seen. In homicidal the ligature is usually more horizontal." (Fig 50)
http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f10/asphyxial-deaths-100402/
-a thin red line of congestion is usually seen above, below or along the furrow
http://medind.nic.in/jal/t05/i1/jalt05i1p10.pdf
http://www.scribd.com/doc/46406772/Doc

The reason Rebecca tied her hands? If it was a suicide, this would prevent her from trying to get free once she took the jump. I guess this could make sense. The binding of her feet doesn't quite fit the same suicide theory. In my opinion Rebecca needed her legs to get over that balcony. There was no benefit to bind her legs. It doesn't fit with the suicide theory.

Lash wrote:The reason Rebecca tied her hands? If it was a suicide, this would prevent her from trying to get free once she took the jump. I guess this could make sense. The binding of her feet doesn't quite fit the same suicide theory. In my opinion Rebecca needed her legs to get over that balcony. There was no benefit to bind her legs. It doesn't fit with the suicide theory.

@Lash- If I try to fit the bindings of the hands and feet into a suicide theory, this my my opinion. Alot of times during hanging, the patient will have siezures during the hanging. Besides for trying to get free, it would serve as keeping the arms and legs from flailing. It's a good point to question because this point does not make sense more than it does make sense. Unfortunately, we may never know.

Another point. The ME concluded the the shirt was wrapped loosely around her neck and the rope around her wrists were loose so she could slip her hand out. The crime scene was disturbed. AS handled and loosened both of these items before the ME performed the autopsy. I am not claiming AS did anything wrong.
I am stating it is another inaccuracy that was used to conclude this was a suicide.

Lash wrote:Another point. The ME concluded the the shirt was wrapped loosely around her neck and the rope around her wrists were loose so she could slip her hand out. The crime scene was disturbed. AS handled and loosened both of these items before the ME performed the autopsy. I am not claiming AS did anything wrong.
I am stating it is another inaccuracy that was used to conclude this was a suicide.

@Lash- I completely agree

Jessica2 wrote:

Lash wrote:The reason Rebecca tied her hands? If it was a suicide, this would prevent her from trying to get free once she took the jump. I guess this could make sense. The binding of her feet doesn't quite fit the same suicide theory. In my opinion Rebecca needed her legs to get over that balcony. There was no benefit to bind her legs. It doesn't fit with the suicide theory.

@Lash- If I try to fit the bindings of the hands and feet into a suicide theory, this my my opinion. Alot of times during hanging, the patient will have siezures during the hanging. Besides for trying to get free, it would serve as keeping the arms and legs from flailing. It's a good point to question because this point does not make sense more than it does make sense. Unfortunately, we may never know.

Jessica - If this was a suicide and the plans included simply stepping off a ledge it might make sense. It wasn't that simple. Rebecca had to take on the extra feat of hopping and somersaulting over a railing with her legs bound. It is simply nonsensical in my opinion. I do agree we may never know.

Lash wrote:

Jessica2 wrote:

Lash wrote:The reason Rebecca tied her hands? If it was a suicide, this would prevent her from trying to get free once she took the jump. I guess this could make sense. The binding of her feet doesn't quite fit the same suicide theory. In my opinion Rebecca needed her legs to get over that balcony. There was no benefit to bind her legs. It doesn't fit with the suicide theory.

@Lash- If I try to fit the bindings of the hands and feet into a suicide theory, this my my opinion. Alot of times during hanging, the patient will have siezures during the hanging. Besides for trying to get free, it would serve as keeping the arms and legs from flailing. It's a good point to question because this point does not make sense more than it does make sense. Unfortunately, we may never know.

Jessica - If this was a suicide and the plans included simply stepping off a ledge it might make sense. It wasn't that simple. Rebecca had to take on the extra feat of hopping and somersaulting over a railing with her legs bound. It is simply nonsensical in my opinion. I do agree we may never know.

@Lash- it just seems totally bizarre. I would think that the delayed time in examining the body would be enough grounds for a second investigation. Was there any valid explanation ever given? I read last night that in hanging deaths, investigators once death is confirmed should not move the body until everything is documented and recorded. Was any reason (valid or questionable) given for why it took so long?

If I assume that it was a suicide and RZ wanted to make sure she did not try to break free, so she decided to bind her hands behind her back... then why bind the legs to make it more difficult to commit suicide?? If she is so determined to even consider the remote possibility that she would be able to undo the effects of jumping off the railing simply by bare hands (fix her damaged neck in the meantime..) then why would she make it more difficult to accomplish ? Binding her legs makes it even more possible to not be able to complete her "goal" so to speak.
With this case, I am way past the point of "is it a suicide or not".
I hope things go forward sooner than later.

Here is a link showing just how simple it was to do what Rebecca did:

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15928565/news-8-reenacts-the-coronado-mansion-mystery

I do not think she hung herself out of sadness over little Max, but out of anger at Jonah for asking her questions about Max's accident - or a combination of the two. Just my opinion.

And HinkySD, if you weren't directing your comment to those of us here that think Rebecca committed suicide, then WHO where you directing it to?

ThirdEye wrote:I do not think she hung herself out of sadness over little Max, but out of anger at Jonah for asking her questions about Max's accident - or a combination of the two. Just my opinion.

Again, I love hearing your theory! I can't wait until you provide more details!