Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

ThirdEye wrote:And HinkySD, if you weren't directing your comment to those of us here that think Rebecca committed suicide, then WHO where you directing it to?

Not to the posters at RC. I know that you are new to this case, but there have been people who have claimed to KNOW that the Zahaus believe that Rebecca committed suicide. They have stated that the long drawn out wait is proof of it. Which is not true. The Zahaus and many many experts believe she was murdered.

Many have vowed to help the Zahaus expose the murderers. Seeing you believe that Rebecca committed suicide, will it bother you when the murder is brought to light?

The "reason" the Zahau Family retained an attorney to try to get an independent investigation is that the Zahau's "don't" believe that Rebecca committed suicide.

It's "obvious" that the Zahaus do "not" believe Rebecca committed suicide. Their actions tell the public what the Zahaus believe.

HinkySD wrote:

ThirdEye wrote:And HinkySD, if you weren't directing your comment to those of us here that think Rebecca committed suicide, then WHO where you directing it to?

Not to the posters at RC. I know that you are new to this case, but there have been people who have claimed to KNOW that the Zahaus believe that Rebecca committed suicide. They have stated that the long drawn out wait is proof of it. Which is not true. The Zahaus and many many experts believe she was murdered.

Many have vowed to help the Zahaus expose the murderers. Seeing you believe that Rebecca committed suicide, will it bother you when the murder is brought to light?

Seeing as you believe it was murder, will it bother you if the final end conclusion of it stays the same as already ruled?

ThirdEye wrote:I do not think she hung herself out of sadness over little Max, but out of anger at Jonah for asking her questions about Max's accident - or a combination of the two. Just my opinion.

Spitefully killed herself? Angry at Jonah?? Really??? Now, that's a theory I have never heard anyone espouse. And certainly doesn't fit with most emotional states described in suicides (despondence, sadness, despair, guilt, sorrow, betrayal, loneliness, etc.)

Anger?

As in, " How dare you question me. I'll show YOU-- I'll just hang myself naked off your guestroom balcony. There. Gotcha."?? "I'll show you, you son of a *****?"

Or,

"I'm so mad at myself for letting this happen?"

Or,

"I'm so mad at you for putting me in this position with Max?"

Or,

"I'm so mad this happened on my watch?"

Or,

"I'm so mad at you for questioning me-- I'll take both of us out of your life? Then you'll suffer."

The "anger" thing is just baffling to me, thirdeye. Can you explain more?

Then, why the cryptic note on the door? Why the big elaborate scene?

So many easier ways to do that if one wanted to off themselves "spitefully." To me, spitefully implies that one is interested in provoking a response. Why provoke if you're not there to savor the moment of spite?

Spite and anger don't fit for me at all. That is, imo, more of a stretch than guilt.

And how in the HECK did this dental assistant calculate the drop, seemingly on the fly? The distance involved is just too problematic to me that someone in the throes of committing suicide could calculate that drop accurately. How did the dental assistant know how much stretch would be in the tow rope? How did the dental assistant know the bed wouldn't skitter across the room while her body swung, and end up with the body on the ground?

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I never perceived RZ to be a master of engineering, math, and physics. That "balcony" was a very odd choice. Tying off to the bed was a very odd choice. Binding hands and feet was a VERY odd choice. Nudity was an odd choice. So much could have gone wrong if it was a suicide. RZ wasn't exactly a risk taker in life-- she was a predictable person-- disciplined, with routines she stuck to, etc. This kind of suicide just doesn't fit her personality at all, imo.

Anger at Jonah as a motive? I just don't understand that at all.

KZ wrote:

ThirdEye wrote:I do not think she hung herself out of sadness over little Max, but out of anger at Jonah for asking her questions about Max's accident - or a combination of the two. Just my opinion.

Spitefully killed herself? Angry at Jonah?? Really??? Now, that's a theory I have never heard anyone espouse. And certainly doesn't fit with most emotional states described in suicides (despondence, sadness, despair, guilt, sorrow, betrayal, loneliness, etc.)

Anger?

As in, " How dare you question me. I'll show YOU-- I'll just hang myself naked off your guestroom balcony. There. Gotcha."?? "I'll show you, you son of a *****?"

Or,

"I'm so mad at myself for letting this happen?"

Or,

"I'm so mad at you for putting me in this position with Max?"

Or,

"I'm so mad this happened on my watch?"

Or,

"I'm so mad at you for questioning me-- I'll take both of us out of your life? Then you'll suffer."

The "anger" thing is just baffling to me, thirdeye. Can you explain more?

Then, why the cryptic note on the door? Why the big elaborate scene?

So many easier ways to do that if one wanted to off themselves "spitefully." To me, spitefully implies that one is interested in provoking a response. Why provoke if you're not there to savor the moment of spite?

Spite and anger don't fit for me at all. That is, imo, more of a stretch than guilt.

And how in the HECK did this dental assistant calculate the drop, seemingly on the fly? The distance involved is just too problematic to me that someone in the throes of committing suicide could calculate that drop accurately. How did the dental assistant know how much stretch would be in the tow rope? How did the dental assistant know the bed wouldn't skitter across the room while her body swung, and end up with the body on the ground?

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I never perceived RZ to be a master of engineering, math, and physics. That "balcony" was a very odd choice. Tying off to the bed was a very odd choice. Binding hands and feet was a VERY odd choice. Nudity was an odd choice. So much could have gone wrong if it was a suicide. RZ wasn't exactly a risk taker in life-- she was a predictable person-- disciplined, with routines she stuck to, etc. This kind of suicide just doesn't fit her personality at all, imo.

Anger at Jonah as a motive? I just don't understand that at all.

You have me laughing! Only in fairy tales does someone off themselves to get back at someone else!
Can't recall any stories there right now but let me think about it.

RZ was a master of engineering, math,physics, a gymnast, a statistician, master of deceit by plotting her own murder, hobbies were door painting , hopping rails, and knot tying. She was also a taxi driver! Wow. If she was ALL this, WHY would she then need TWO sets of gloves and TWO knives?

Verrrry interesting the super skills this woman had!

Now a boat captain, use to running barges on the Mississippi, use to boat tie-downs, calculations of distance, calculations of rope types and strengths, able to calculate water resistances, and knowing different nautical rope knots. Hmmm. Find this "cutie" to be of interest. Too bad he was busy with his body and secreting in secrecy.

Speaking of secretions...

KZ - I share your viewpoint. IMO well stated. None of the "suicide" scenario makes any sense. Zip. Nada. Zero sense.

Once again, in my opinion, and from comments from hundreds on media articles and forums worldwide, the entire scenario points towards a murder staged to look like a suicide. Humiliation, revenge, hatred, abject anger. Perhaps an interrogation without intent to murder that went horribly wrong, thus the need to stage the suicide? That is the kindest scenario I can personally muster. Considering all events leading up to the hanging plus the horrid online character assassination documented on media articles and a particular forum, IMO it was premeditated.

While the skepticism of others begins with the "whys" of binding ankles, gagging, the nudity, the cryptic message on the door, my "crime scene" skepticism begins with the binding of her wrists behind her back. For Rebecca who had never attempted suicide before, in any manner let alone by hanging herself, how on earth would she even have the NOTION she might instinctively want to change her mind, thus bind the hands behind the back? It makes as much sense as binding your hands behind your back before shooting yourself. There exist a handful of documented 'unassisted' hanging suicides with hands bound behind back, but ALL 'victims' were repeat performances. Ergo: didn't work the first time so this time I'll get it right!

Refer to the recent case of Mary Kennedy whose depression was well documented, and as far as we know she did NOT bind herself. She went to the shed, stood on a stool, fashioned the noose, then allowed herself to hang until asphyxiated. She left a hand written note on a piece of paper. This is what the media has told us. Whereas before Rebecca's death investigation I was not one to question LE investigations beyond a reasonable doubt, today I believe nothing. IOW my core belief in justice died with Rebecca.

I ask rhetorically: before Rebecca's death, how many of you would even THINK to bind your wrists behind your back before plunging to your death? I will bet the farm the answer would be NO ONE.

Also was also a 'babysitter' to Max Shacknai, Ethan Shacknai and Gabrielle Shacknai.

I'm in awe of Rebacca Zahau.

Eileen_Dover wrote:... the entire scenario points towards a murder staged to look like a suicide. Humiliation, revenge, hatred, abject anger. Perhaps an interrogation without intent to murder that went horribly wrong, thus the need to stage the suicide? That is the kindest scenario I can personally muster. Considering all events leading up to the hanging plus the horrid online character assassination documented on media articles and a particular forum, IMO it was premeditated...

Snipped by me, hope you don't mind. BBM

Seeing as another poster put forth their belief/theory on Rebecca Zahau's self-murder (being spiteful...lol) here's mine.

I absolutely agree. I believe Rebecca Zahau was murdered because Dina Shacknai was told her child was strangulated. I believe Jonah Shacknai knows how Max died (and the person, people involved). However, he's not spilling it.

There's no love lost between Jonah Shacknai and Dina Shacknai and her twin Nina. Why the cover up? I don't believe for one nano-second it was to protect those women. I think it was to protect another/others.

JMO of course.

Here is a link showing just how many unanswered questions still remain. News 8 reenactment of how far the mansion bed moved.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15940480/mansion-mystery-news-8-reenactment-reveals-new-questions?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=6414342

Why didn’t the bed move as much as it did on KFMB? If she hung herself, the bed would have jerked away further.
The experiment conducted by employees of KFMB did not recreate the scene in a manner sufficient to stand up to the scrutiny of scientific method. In order to conduct a truly scientific experiment of this nature, one would have to have the exact carpet and padding (which was quite thick), a bed frame of the same weight and weight distribution, a mattress of the same weight and weight distribution, and the item simulating Rebecca would have to be of the same weight, weight distribution, and would have to have the flexibility of a human body. In addition, the object simulating a human body would have to go over the railing in a manner similar to what the evidence showed (bending over and sliding). Unless these elements can be duplicated exactly, this test is of no scientific value. On scene examination of the bed showed it had compressed the carpet at the contact points, and the bed was found to be rather heavy. All of this taken into consideration, none of the investigators on scene questioned the distance the bed was pulled away from the wall.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html

That rope demonstration produced and made public by SDSO is not sufficient to stand up to the scrutiny of scientific method: they didn't use the same kind and size of the rope used on RZ.

ThirdEye wrote:Why didn’t the bed move as much as it did on KFMB? If she hung herself, the bed would have jerked away further.
The experiment conducted by employees of KFMB did not recreate the scene in a manner sufficient to stand up to the scrutiny of scientific method. In order to conduct a truly scientific experiment of this nature, one would have to have the exact carpet and padding (which was quite thick), a bed frame of the same weight and weight distribution, a mattress of the same weight and weight distribution, and the item simulating Rebecca would have to be of the same weight, weight distribution, and would have to have the flexibility of a human body. In addition, the object simulating a human body would have to go over the railing in a manner similar to what the evidence showed (bending over and sliding). Unless these elements can be duplicated exactly, this test is of no scientific value. On scene examination of the bed showed it had compressed the carpet at the contact points, and the bed was found to be rather heavy. All of this taken into consideration, none of the investigators on scene questioned the distance the bed was pulled away from the wall.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html

@ThirdEye- are people still doubting that a hanging took place? Do they believe the manner of death was not hanging?

Yes, some of the murder theorists believe she was strangled then hung. This article is about how much the bed moved from the wall - someone put forth the idea that the bed would have moved more and now it is used as "evidence" of murder. But the 6-15 investigators who actually saw the room and the bed up close do not agree with that argument.

Freckles wrote:Now a boat captain, use to running barges on the Mississippi, use to boat tie-downs, calculations of distance, calculations of rope types and strengths, able to calculate water resistances, and knowing different nautical rope knots. Hmmm. Find this "cutie" to be of interest. Too bad he was busy with his body and secreting in secrecy.

Speaking of secretions...

Adam would not be tying knots as a boat Captain. And the knots were not any type of known knot anyway. They think Rebecca tied until she got it right.

How did she learn these complex knots?
We don’t believe she did. These knots were not as complex as they have been made out to be, which is what we discovered when we attempted to recreate the knots on Rebecca’s wrists. Simply stated, this is one of those questions which will most likely never be answered with any certainty.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html

Eileen, regarding the staging of the scene.

My thought is that it wasn't a murder staged to look like a suicide. It was a murder staged to look like a murder. Nothing about the scene looked like a suicide. The whole thing, down to the cryptic note on the door looked like a murder. And imo, it looked like a retaliative/ vindictive murder-- and was intended to look vindictive, by the note on the door.

I think Max's death was an accident-- I never have seen any conspiracy there. At the most, perhaps rough play that got out of hand. But I do think anger was a big part of the motive for RZ's death-- just not suicidal anger by RZ toward Jonah. I believe RZ was murdered because "someone/s" thought:

a. she was personally responsible for not supervising Max appropriately

b. because "someone/s" thought she didn't try "hard enough" to save him

c. because "someone/s" was lead to believe she strangled Max (erroneous or irresponsible comments by the ICU doc, or the remarks were interpreted and communicated by someone incorrectly)

d. "Someone/s" was just heartbroken and pissed off that Max was mortally injured, and wanted to take it out on RZ. Someone/s who intensely disliked her, and considered her expendable.

e. "Someone/s" who was angry at Jonah because of his relationship with RZ, and RZ's relationship with Max.

Pick one or more of the above.

I also don't think anything will ever be done. I believe that the case will not be reopened or reinvestigated. There is no official will for that-- only a few bloggers and the family of RZ.

So I also believe "someone/s" will get away with murder. It wouldn't be the first time that happened, I guess. There will never be justice for RZ, imo.

But the "pro-suicide" theorists will remain active and vocal until all talk of reopening the investigation ceases.

KZ, and I think it was a vindictive suicide made to look like a murder! LOL!

Thirdeye- May I ask why you chose CBS 8 as a credible source when they reenacted the alleged hanging, but you discredit the same media outlet when they reenacted the bed movements?

ThirdEye wrote:KZ, and I think it was a vindictive suicide made to look like a murder! LOL!

@ThirdEye- The pathologist who did the second autopsy on Rebecca for the Zahau's and the Doctor Phil show stated that suicide to look like murder is something to think about.

I don't think that the hanging reenactment is EXACTLY how Rebecca did it. No one will ever know that. But it showed it was very easy to do. I agree with the SDSO in the bed reenactment that to have correct results, EVERYTHING would have to be the same...and it was not.

ThirdEye wrote:I don't think that the hanging reenactment is EXACTLY how Rebecca did it. No one will ever know that. But it showed it was very easy to do. I agree with the SDSO in the bed reenactment that to have correct results, EVERYTHING would have to be the same...and it was not.

@ThirdEye- It is a bizarre way to die I agree, but in my opinion it would be even more impossible for a "murderer" to accomplish.

Lash, what I said was "I don't think that the hanging reenactment is EXACTLY how Rebecca did it. No one will ever know that. But it showed it was very easy to do." and I stand by that.

ThirdEye wrote:I don't think that the hanging reenactment is EXACTLY how Rebecca did it. No one will ever know that. But it showed it was very easy to do. I agree with the SDSO in the bed reenactment that to have correct results, EVERYTHING would have to be the same...and it was not.

EVERYTHING was not the same in the hanging reenactment. The article even states the differences. So BOTH reenactments had differences. Yet you chose to discredit one rather than both. The one you chose to discredit does not support the suicide theory. The one you linked as a credible source supports your theory.

Lash, what I said was "I don't think that the hanging reenactment is EXACTLY how Rebecca did it. No one will ever know that. BUT it showed it was very EASY to do." and I stand by that.

Third Eye.. Not saying Adam was responsible for Rebecca's death, but the comment that as a Captain of a Tug he would know how to tie many types of knots. I think someone commented that he would always be tying knots, and your response indicated as a Captain he wouldn't be tying knots. Just a thought here.. Adam hasn't always been a Captain. He had to start somewhere and no doubt he learned to tie many types of knots.
He may or may not have been involved, but his career of working on boats would sure make me wonder.

From the findings on Rebecca's autopsy report, she was alive when she went over the balcony and died of hanging. If she were strangled first, there would have been signs of such, which there are none. The time of death and physical signs are appropriate for what is documented on the autopsy report. She had no drugs or alcohol in her system. The balcony had no footprints except her own.(There was one other footprint, later confirmed to have been made by an officer.) If it was murder, how would the "murderer" not have disturbed anything on that very dusty balcony? If that one footprint is suspected to belong to a murderer, was he hopping? It makes no sense to me. There were no signs consistent of Rebecca dying of anything but hanging. And as hard as those who believe it was murder to think Rebecca could do it, in my opinion it is even harder for a "murderer" to accomplish.

Marica wrote:Third Eye.. Not saying Adam was responsible for Rebecca's death, but the comment that as a Captain of a Tug he would know how to tie many types of knots. I think someone commented that he would always be tying knots, and your response indicated as a Captain he wouldn't be tying knots. Just a thought here.. Adam hasn't always been a Captain. He had to start somewhere and no doubt he learned to tie many types of knots.
He may or may not have been involved, but his career of working on boats would sure make me wonder.

@Marica- Respectfully, they were not complex knots. They were looped in a figure of 8 pattern. In my opinion, anyone really could have tied those knots. Rebecca was a medical technician, that makes me wonder too, she would have to be good with her hands. In suicidal hanging, the knot which is most frequently found is the slip knot.

I know nothing about knots, except those that always manage to develop in my shoe laces or draw strings on my PJ's and I have no clue how those happen.
So from what you are saying the rope was in a figure 8 fashion around her wrists. That wouldn't really be a knot then. What sort of knot was on the rope around her neck and were there other knots tied into the rope at other points?

@ Jessica2... Do you have any theory about the reported injury to Rebecca's head.

Hi Marica,
I'm adding a link to a video of a re enactment. (I think it was by the police)
As for the injuries to Rebecca's head, in my opinion, they were not severe enough to cause unconsciousness. She could have gotten them during the actual nine foot drop.
My opinion only- they do not have a sinister significance because they were not severe enough to cause unconsciousness, or underlying injury. There were not cuts or abrasions with them, so I don't think they were any sort of struggle injuries.
I hope this helps:)
http://vimeo.com/28515690

Jessica2 wrote:From the findings on Rebecca's autopsy report, she was alive when she went over the balcony and died of hanging. If she were strangled first, there would have been signs of such, which there are none. The time of death and physical signs are appropriate for what is documented on the autopsy report. She had no drugs or alcohol in her system. The balcony had no footprints except her own.(There was one other footprint, later confirmed to have been made by an officer.) If it was murder, how would the "murderer" not have disturbed anything on that very dusty balcony? If that one footprint is suspected to belong to a murderer, was he hopping? It makes no sense to me. There were no signs consistent of Rebecca dying of anything but hanging. And as hard as those who believe it was murder to think Rebecca could do it, in my opinion it is even harder for a "murderer" to accomplish.

If the ME were trying to support the theory of suicide OF COURSE he would have to say she was alive when she went over! Unless you can find in your medical literature where someone is dead and then hops over a balcony! ;>

The AR findings appear to indicate that Rebecca was alive when she went over the balcony but was she conscious? 4 head injuries not just one.

"On the right superior parietal scalp there is a 2 x 1 inch subgaleal hemorrhage. On the right lateral frontal scalp there are two subgaleal hemorrhages measuring 3/4 x 1/2 inch and 1/2 x 1/4 inch. On the right lateral frontotemporal scalp, there is a 3/8 inch diameter subgaleal hemorrhage."

Opinion - Dr.Wecht

"She has subgaleal hemorrhages; those are hemorrhages on the undersurface of the scalp. I see no reason why she should have those." Dr. Wecht said. "You get those when your head strikes something or is struck by something."

"Even if (her) scalp hit bushes, that kind of impact would not produce subgaleal hemorrhage," Wecht said. "We're talking about contusions on the top of the head. So, even as the body is falling down – let's say there are branches – how do you get bruises on the top of the head as the body is falling vertically downward?"

Wecht said Zahau's head injuries – which caused bleeding underneath her scalp – would have occurred while she was still alive or in the minutes shortly after her death. He said it is impossible to determine whether Zahau's head traumas would have rendered her unconscious.

"A blow or blows sufficient to produce subgaleal, subscalpular hemorrhage could be sufficient for someone to be knocked out, just temporarily, not to produce any damage to the brain, not to cause any prolonged unconsciousness; but one cannot say," Dr. Wecht said.  "They are clearly indicia of some kind of blunt force trauma. So, for someone to say there is no evidence whatsoever of any kind of a struggle is not correct."

snip - http://www.cbs8.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

Opinion - Dr. Lucas

REPORTER:
Something else Dr. Wecht said, which I think has been in the news a lot recently, and again, I’m quoting from him: I would like to hear from them how do you get four separate impacts at the top of the head in a vertical hanging. End quoting Dr.

LUCAS:
Well, that is a good question. Um, the only problem is this is not a vertical hanging. It wouldn't... I don't see how it would be possible for her to be in a position with their feet bound and her hands bound to get in a position where she would be a straight vertical drop. The evidence of the scene supports and the bindings support the notion that she leaned over the balcony shifted her body weight over and went over in that fashion and you can imagine that she would be going with her head down or at least sideways. It's my thought that one of those impacts on the head was probably from the edge of the balcony as she went over. And I'll even -­‐-­‐ since you brought those up I might as well clarify these impacts. There were four impacts he's absolutely right. One of them was 2 inches by 1 inch. That's the one that I think was probably from going over the balcony. The three others were smaller than a nickel. Not only did they not have enough -­‐-­‐ did they not represent enough force to cause unconsciousness or any other -­‐-­‐ they may not even have given her a headache. These were small injuries. I do not know exactly how they happened but they were minor and inconsequential. And uh like I said – there may have -­‐-­‐ the mechanics of going over that balcony in a tipped over fashion I think could allow for the possibility of hitting her head on the balcony or perhaps somehow interacting with the rope as she straightened out.

DAVID GOTFREDSON/CBS8:
The two and one half inch gash, could that have caused unconsciousness?

LUCAS:
I don't know.

DAVID GOTFREDSON/CBS8:
And you’re aware the balcony has no lip that sticks out, right? There’s nothing to hit on the way down because there’s no lip that sticks out beyond the railing.

LUCAS:
Well I still think she could have hit -­‐-­‐ the railing is – uh – there are spaces between the railings. I think she could've got her head on the edge. It may not stick out but they're still space for her to get her head in there.

DAVID GOTFREDSON/CBS8:
Don’t you think it’s unlikely that after she came down and became vertical, maybe swinging a little, it would be unlikely for her to hit her head at that point.

LUCAS:
You know -­‐-­‐ I have to -­‐-­‐ I think that's a possibility -­‐-­‐ that's a possibility. [Gore to side whispers to Lucas: And when she’s cut down, also] Yeah, one other option was when she was cut down there may have been possibly an impact in that way, it could have bled a little bit – um -­‐-­‐ even postmortem you can get a little bleeding after death. So – um -­‐-­‐ those are the options I'm offering.

Snip - https://viewer.zoho.com/download?genFile=yea8bh

@Lash- Thank you for posting that information. I completely understand why you question the findings. It's just my opinion that they were not enough to cause unconsciousness. I am not an expert. I know they were explained as having happened during the fall. (Railing, cactus plant etc.), but I still think there is no way to know when those occurred, and they could have happened before.
I respect Dr. Wecht's opinion, but he is a pathologist in my opinion who seems to be involved in many conspiracy theories. I did believe everything he said about Rebecca's death, until he stated he believed Whitney Houston was murdered. He also questioned why Rebecca's feet were bound and stated "Did she want to make it seem like it was a murder and incriminate him? That's something to think about." Why even throw that out there if not for publicity? So now I admit, I take everything with a grain of salt.
I did ask a friend of mine who is a forensic pathologist a while back. He told me that those would not cause unconsciousness.
Let's say she was unconscious. How is it possible to accomplish this "murder" and still have signs that are most common in suicidal hanging on autopsy report? How would they pick her up, throw her off the balcony and still not leave any evidence behind except a part of the railing consistant with having been disturbed by her body?
It's not that I have not thought of the murder theory. I have, though I have never suspected anyone in the family. I originally thought that someone wanted to hurt JS by killing the two people he loved the most. But then, none of the physical findings make sense to me to fit into that. If I believe the murder theory it's a purely emotional thought. I have nothing concrete to unequivocally say either way.

HinkySD wrote:

Jessica2 wrote:From the findings on Rebecca's autopsy report, she was alive when she went over the balcony and died of hanging. If she were strangled first, there would have been signs of such, which there are none. The time of death and physical signs are appropriate for what is documented on the autopsy report. She had no drugs or alcohol in her system. The balcony had no footprints except her own.(There was one other footprint, later confirmed to have been made by an officer.) If it was murder, how would the "murderer" not have disturbed anything on that very dusty balcony? If that one footprint is suspected to belong to a murderer, was he hopping? It makes no sense to me. There were no signs consistent of Rebecca dying of anything but hanging. And as hard as those who believe it was murder to think Rebecca could do it, in my opinion it is even harder for a "murderer" to accomplish.

If the ME were trying to support the theory of suicide OF COURSE he would have to say she was alive when she went over! Unless you can find in your medical literature where someone is dead and then hops over a balcony! ;>

@Hinky- I did not write that because of what the ME said. This is my example, purely for explanation purposes.You guys had asked about the thin red second line, which was a good question, so I did ask an expert about it. It is an antemortem sign (before death) caused by the constriction of the rope. Though the veins are constricted, the arterial blood flow continues for a point and the thin red line is due to vessel congestion.(KZ please correct me if I make a mistake in explaining.)
So, if that happened while she died, just before her death, and there are no signs consistent of choking, strangulation, or suffocation, my opinion is that she was alive when she went over the balcony and she died by hanging(the ligature mark only supports this). It's just my opinion, and I am not an expert.

Jessica- I have been over several theories of how it would be possible to accomplish the murder w/o evidence on the balcony. It definitely makes it easier to slide one over a balcony vertical if their hands and feet are both bound. She was a very small woman. The balcony area is so small, it is entirely feasible to never have to plant one foot onto the balcony floor to send RZ over on her side.

Rebecca's footprints were not matched. They were only consistent. They could have belonged to anybody that had been in that mansion. The sheriffs department wants us to believe the foreign DNA could be anyone that had recently been in that house. Does the same rule not apply to the footprints?

Lash wrote:Jessica- I have been over several theories of how it would be possible to accomplish the murder w/o evidence on the balcony. It definitely makes it easier to slide one over a balcony vertical if their hands and feet are both bound. She was a very small woman. The balcony area is so small, it is entirely feasible to never have to plant one foot onto the balcony floor to send RZ over on her side.

Rebecca's footprints were not matched. They were only consistent. They could have belonged to anybody that had been in that mansion. The sheriffs department wants us to believe the foreign DNA could be anyone that had recently been in that house. Does the same rule not apply to the footprints?

@Lash- As in they reached over the balcony without stepping on the balcony floor and slid her over? I don't think that is impossible. What you wrote about the footprints definitely applies to anyone who had recently been to the house. The only thing with that is on autopsy report, it says the footprints were in a v, consistent with her feet that were tied.

Rebecca's body had to wait fully exposed for one particular Medical Examiner, newly promoted Jonathan (Mr. Lodi, CA) Lucas. Lucas was at a conference which significantly delayed his response to the Coronado murder.

WHY IS M.E. LUCAS A BIG FAT LIAR?

SHOW ME THE DIRT, MR. LUCAS!?! Oh, you only found a small smudge of dust on her left thigh?

So did she hop, flip and scrape her thigh? If so, why did you say 'The evidence of the scene supports and the bindings support the notion that she leaned over the balcony shifted her body weight over and went over in that fashion and you can imagine that she would be going with her head down or at least sideways.' Hmmm?

WHY ISN'T THERE DIRT ON HER STOMACH, MR. LUCAS?



See if he can ummmmm and ahhhhhhhhh his way out of that question!

Eileen_Dover wrote:KZ - I share your viewpoint. IMO well stated. None of the "suicide" scenario makes any sense. Zip. Nada. Zero sense.

Once again, in my opinion, and from comments from hundreds on media articles and forums worldwide, the entire scenario points towards a murder staged to look like a suicide. Humiliation, revenge, hatred, abject anger. Perhaps an interrogation without intent to murder that went horribly wrong, thus the need to stage the suicide? That is the kindest scenario I can personally muster. Considering all events leading up to the hanging plus the horrid online character assassination documented on media articles and a particular forum, IMO it was premeditated.

While the skepticism of others begins with the "whys" of binding ankles, gagging, the nudity, the cryptic message on the door, my "crime scene" skepticism begins with the binding of her wrists behind her back. For Rebecca who had never attempted suicide before, in any manner let alone by hanging herself, how on earth would she even have the NOTION she might instinctively want to change her mind, thus bind the hands behind the back? It makes as much sense as binding your hands behind your back before shooting yourself. There exist a handful of documented 'unassisted' hanging suicides with hands bound behind back, but ALL 'victims' were repeat performances. Ergo: didn't work the first time so this time I'll get it right!

Refer to the recent case of Mary Kennedy whose depression was well documented, and as far as we know she did NOT bind herself. She went to the shed, stood on a stool, fashioned the noose, then allowed herself to hang until asphyxiated. She left a hand written note on a piece of paper. This is what the media has told us. Whereas before Rebecca's death investigation I was not one to question LE investigations beyond a reasonable doubt, today I believe nothing. IOW my core belief in justice died with Rebecca.

I ask rhetorically: before Rebecca's death, how many of you would even THINK to bind your wrists behind your back before plunging to your death? I will bet the farm the answer would be NO ONE.

BBM

Thank you, Eileen!

The idea that one sets out to whole heartedly kill themselves, but then also takes the time to ponder what might happen if they change their mind is ridiculous! Add to this a LONG DROP HANGING and it is even more ridiculous!

Unless one is really DETERMINED not to live.

A long drop but NOT to snap her neck!
So much for all those excellent calculations.
But wait.
Maybe it was NOT calculated for her to die.
That's the snap!

Is there a boat "captain" out there that doesn't know how to tie simple nautical knots used in their profession?

Marica wrote:Third Eye.. Not saying Adam was responsible for Rebecca's death, but the comment that as a Captain of a Tug he would know how to tie many types of knots. I think someone commented that he would always be tying knots, and your response indicated as a Captain he wouldn't be tying knots. Just a thought here.. Adam hasn't always been a Captain. He had to start somewhere and no doubt he learned to tie many types of knots.
He may or may not have been involved, but his career of working on boats would sure make me wonder.

Someone who used nautical knots in their profession would be so used to tying knots a certain way to obtain a desired result that they would "automatically" tie such knots...without even thinking about what they're doing. It would be "natural" for such a person to tie the knot correctly.

Lash wrote:Jessica- I have been over several theories of how it would be possible to accomplish the murder w/o evidence on the balcony. It definitely makes it easier to slide one over a balcony vertical if their hands and feet are both bound. She was a very small woman. The balcony area is so small, it is entirely feasible to never have to plant one foot onto the balcony floor to send RZ over on her side.

Rebecca's footprints were not matched. They were only consistent. They could have belonged to anybody that had been in that mansion. The sheriffs department wants us to believe the foreign DNA could be anyone that had recently been in that house. Does the same rule not apply to the footprints?

RZ's feet were dirty....some "assume" that came from her hopping onto the balcony and then on one tip-toe and over the balcony.

First - first, if her feet were notably dirty, how would she get that much dirt on her feet from just "one" hop onto the balcony?

Second - Why didn't the M.E. take a sample of the dirt on RZ's feet and send it for testing?

Third - That testing could have rendered information like "paint flakes" or "rust" from the balcony to support any finding.

Puzzler wrote:

Marica wrote:Third Eye.. Not saying Adam was responsible for Rebecca's death, but the comment that as a Captain of a Tug he would know how to tie many types of knots. I think someone commented that he would always be tying knots, and your response indicated as a Captain he wouldn't be tying knots. Just a thought here.. Adam hasn't always been a Captain. He had to start somewhere and no doubt he learned to tie many types of knots.
He may or may not have been involved, but his career of working on boats would sure make me wonder.

Someone who used nautical knots in their profession would be so used to tying knots a certain way to obtain a desired result that they would "automatically" tie such knots...without even thinking about what they're doing. It would be "natural" for such a person to tie the knot correctly.

@puzzler- kindly show one piece of documentation, even a statement by any authority that the knots in Rebecca's death were nautical knots.

Puzzler wrote:

Lash wrote:Jessica- I have been over several theories of how it would be possible to accomplish the murder w/o evidence on the balcony. It definitely makes it easier to slide one over a balcony vertical if their hands and feet are both bound. She was a very small woman. The balcony area is so small, it is entirely feasible to never have to plant one foot onto the balcony floor to send RZ over on her side.

Rebecca's footprints were not matched. They were only consistent. They could have belonged to anybody that had been in that mansion. The sheriffs department wants us to believe the foreign DNA could be anyone that had recently been in that house. Does the same rule not apply to the footprints?

RZ's feet were dirty....some "assume" that came from her hopping onto the balcony and then on one tip-toe and over the balcony.

First - first, if her feet were notably dirty, how would she get that much dirt on her feet from just "one" hop onto the balcony?

Second - Why didn't the M.E. take a sample of the dirt on RZ's feet and send it for testing?

Third - That testing could have rendered information like "paint flakes" or "rust" from the balcony to support any finding.

@puzzler-agreed. They should have sampled it. The only document we have to go on is the autopsy report.

Jessica2 wrote:

Puzzler wrote:

Marica wrote:Third Eye.. Not saying Adam was responsible for Rebecca's death, but the comment that as a Captain of a Tug he would know how to tie many types of knots. I think someone commented that he would always be tying knots, and your response indicated as a Captain he wouldn't be tying knots. Just a thought here.. Adam hasn't always been a Captain. He had to start somewhere and no doubt he learned to tie many types of knots.
He may or may not have been involved, but his career of working on boats would sure make me wonder.

Someone who used nautical knots in their profession would be so used to tying knots a certain way to obtain a desired result that they would "automatically" tie such knots...without even thinking about what they're doing. It would be "natural" for such a person to tie the knot correctly.

@puzzler- kindly show one piece of documentation, even a statement by any authority that the knots in Rebecca's death were nautical knots.

The knots were not nautical, and were not any type of knot in particular. Someone stated that Adam would tie perfect nautical knots automatically, so I guess that rules him out?

How did she learn these complex knots?
We don’t believe she did. These knots were not as complex as they have been made out to be, which is what we discovered when we attempted to recreate the knots on Rebecca’s wrists.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html


IMO, Rebecca's feet were dirty from walking through the garden and garage bare-footed to get the rope and back again.

And, exactly WHAT would they compare the dirt to? Samples from all over Coronado? Just the balcony? The beach? You really must consider that we don't know that they DIDN'T test the dirt on her feet. They have only released the most basic information on the investigation because Max's accident/death was ruled an accident and Rebecca's death was ruled a suicide. Law Enforcement will not release everything in those types of cases. It took 6-15 investigators (working around the clock) seven weeks to close the case. My bet is they did all kinds of testing that we don't know about.

@ThirdEye- I agree with you that we don't know what they tested. Most cases like these which have bizarre circumstances they do not release certain information to the public. They only release the basics. Or maybe they did test it because the autopsy report stated it was consistent with having walked on the dirty balcony floor.

BTW, I do find it a bit ironic that many of you feel that Rebecca was murdered out of hate, revenge, anger, etc., but you find the mention of HER killing HERSELF with some of those emotions going through her head CRAZY talk.

I believe she felt sadness, anger, and guilt. IMO, if she had been totally devastated over Max's accident, she would have left a note saying, "I'm so, so sorry...". But she killed herself in a very sensational way, knowing it would bring the media down on Jonah - at the worst time of his life. You don't do that to someone you are not extremely angry at. The note she left on the door was not one of sadness, but in anger to Jonah, IMO. Was she upset that he was asking questions about how Max fell?

ThirdEye wrote:

Jessica2 wrote:

Puzzler wrote:

Marica wrote:Third Eye.. Not saying Adam was responsible for Rebecca's death, but the comment that as a Captain of a Tug he would know how to tie many types of knots. I think someone commented that he would always be tying knots, and your response indicated as a Captain he wouldn't be tying knots. Just a thought here.. Adam hasn't always been a Captain. He had to start somewhere and no doubt he learned to tie many types of knots.
He may or may not have been involved, but his career of working on boats would sure make me wonder.

Someone who used nautical knots in their profession would be so used to tying knots a certain way to obtain a desired result that they would "automatically" tie such knots...without even thinking about what they're doing. It would be "natural" for such a person to tie the knot correctly.

@puzzler- kindly show one piece of documentation, even a statement by any authority that the knots in Rebecca's death were nautical knots.

The knots were not nautical, and were not any type of knot in particular. Someone stated that Adam would tie perfect nautical knots automatically, so I guess that rules him out?

How did she learn these complex knots?
We don’t believe she did. These knots were not as complex as they have been made out to be, which is what we discovered when we attempted to recreate the knots on Rebecca’s wrists.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html


IMO, Rebecca's feet were dirty from walking through the garden and garage bare-footed to get the rope and back again.

And, exactly WHAT would they compare the dirt to? Samples from all over Coronado? Just the balcony? The beach? You really must consider that we don't know that they DIDN'T test the dirt on her feet. They have only released the most basic information on the investigation because Max's accident/death was ruled an accident and Rebecca's death was ruled a suicide. Law Enforcement will not release everything in those types of cases. It took 6-15 investigators (working around the clock) seven weeks to close the case. My bet is they did all kinds of testing that we don't know about.

BBM

Knot proficiency:

sailors, scouts, climbers, cavers, arborists, rescue professionals, fishermen, linemen, and surgeons.

Lash wrote:Jessica- I have been over several theories of how it would be possible to accomplish the murder w/o evidence on the balcony. It definitely makes it easier to slide one over a balcony vertical if their hands and feet are both bound. She was a very small woman. The balcony area is so small, it is entirely feasible to never have to plant one foot onto the balcony floor to send RZ over on her side.

Rebecca's footprints were not matched. They were only consistent. They could have belonged to anybody that had been in that mansion. The sheriffs department wants us to believe the foreign DNA could be anyone that had recently been in that house. Does the same rule not apply to the footprints?

Was Rebecca found with bare feet or was she wearing sandals?
IIRC, there was a bare foot print over-layed with a sandal print.

Puzzler wrote:

Lash wrote:Jessica- I have been over several theories of how it would be possible to accomplish the murder w/o evidence on the balcony. It definitely makes it easier to slide one over a balcony vertical if their hands and feet are both bound. She was a very small woman. The balcony area is so small, it is entirely feasible to never have to plant one foot onto the balcony floor to send RZ over on her side.

Rebecca's footprints were not matched. They were only consistent. They could have belonged to anybody that had been in that mansion. The sheriffs department wants us to believe the foreign DNA could be anyone that had recently been in that house. Does the same rule not apply to the footprints?

RZ's feet were dirty....some "assume" that came from her hopping onto the balcony and then on one tip-toe and over the balcony.

First - first, if her feet were notably dirty, how would she get that much dirt on her feet from just "one" hop onto the balcony?

Second - Why didn't the M.E. take a sample of the dirt on RZ's feet and send it for testing?

Third - That testing could have rendered information like "paint flakes" or "rust" from the balcony to support any finding.

BBM
Excellent point you make.

And, if she had "bumped her head" on any underside of the railing, paint flakes, rust, debris would have been caught in her hair. Yet the reports indicated, while the hair was inspected, it was found to be clean and in excellent condition--- no signs of debris in her hair.