Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Lash wrote:

Eileen_Dover wrote:
TY Tamta! Actually I had read that article. Interesting, valuable info. My nephew is an EMT, most experienced and highly qualified in his city. I ran both deaths, reports and autopsies by him last year. He concurred with the conclusions in little Max's case but just shakes his head in bewilderment with Rebecca's case, beginning with her body being left out exposed to the elements for 13+ hours. Inexcusable from a forensic point of view. Unconscionable disrespect to the victim and her family. If my loved one had been left out like that I would have sued the county in a heart beat. Pathetic lack of professionalism.

BBM - The bewilderment in Rebecca's case and foundations for a new investigation began that very day before the ME even examined her body.

Two key points:

•Rebecca's body being left exposed for 13+ hours for all to see is unethical.
•Rebecca's body being left for 13+ hours impacted the forensics of this case.

The news of the hanging came to my computer as an email 'BREAKING NEWS! Live coverage. NOW!' It wasn't just on TV it was streamed live via the web from the helicopter cameras!

Did the murderer want to get our attention by hanging her outside nude? Well he surely did. Now that he-she has been given the credit for the murder, they shouldn't pretend that attention is not what they wanted.

It feels very much like the murderer was telling his family, friends and the public

'THERE!' ............ 'THAT'S WHAT SHE GETS!' ..... 'YOU CAN'T TOUCH ME!'

Eileen_
Thanks for re-posting! I recall reading that the first time.
Mary and Rebecca were much closer than JS would have anyone believe. I am sure Rebecca's older and younger sisters BOTH know what probably went down.

IMO, because the younger sister and Rebecca both knew the truth of Max's incident (ant there was no trip planned ot any zoo that day) JS had to take control of them. Rebecca probably realized the danger her sister was in and quickly got her out of there. I hope she stays safe.

Is he charging for the tours?
Or is this some political stunt to win over the people so he can get the renovations done he was DENIED doing?

Freckles wrote:Is he charging for the tours?
Or is this some political stunt to win over the people so he can get the renovations done he was DENIED doing?

Hey Freckles!

The tourists were on those Segways coming from the direction of the Hotel Del Coronado. I think those tours originate from there, or close by, and are probably covering the History of Coronado. Seeing that Sprekels was a main contributor to San Diego and Coronado it is proper that the mansion is part of the tour.

You made me smile reading your post. That would be too much! Jonah's mansion tour!
Where Rebecca Zahua had her little 'accident.' (wink wink)

HinkyinSD - TY so much for the mansion renovation update - I was the one who asked about the status.

Looks like new windows, paint, and the tiles have been put back on the roof.

Some nice landscaping would really help; looks like it went downhill during the years after JS bought it.

Thanks, again!

Hinky SD you would be a great tour guide and I bet there would be a lot more takers than some people might expect.

Is that a for sale sign out front or is that a construction advertisement?

Hi -

Much to my chagrin they have THREE no trespassing signs!! (Were those there just for me! hahahahaha. jk)There's also a 'construction company' sign and a stand alone 'for sale' sign.

HinkySD, awesome pics! Thanks for taking the time to go and "check things out at the Mansion."

It is getting a long overdue "facelift."

Warning: Loooooooooong comment ahead:-)

The amount of conflicting information in Rebecca's autopsy report leaves me ZERO confidence in the integrity of ANY aspect of the investigation. This includes TIME OF DEATH. Not only did the media repeat she was still (barely) alive when first responders arrived, even Capt. Curran SDSO homicide stated she was "in distress."

For fact we know that the Antemortem Events statement in RZ's Autopsy report contradicts the sequence of events in Adam's 911 call. It states Adam saw her hanging at 6:30AM, then ran to kitchen for knife, pulled up table, stood on it, cut her down, laid her on grass, removed blue cloth from mouth, tried CPR, THEN called 911 EIGHTEEN minutes later. (Hmmm… where have we heard this delay in calling 911 before? Yup, you got it. More coinkidinks...)

The Antemortem Events was signed by Dana Gary, ME Investigator on August 21 (38 days after Rebecca's death and 38 days after Adam's 911 call). Geez, can't anyone get their stories straight in this case?? Like HinkySD (TY) said above: WHEN YOU ARE TELLING THE TRUTH YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMEMBER SO HARD!

Sorry, got sidetracked. Back to Time of Death. The following is a smattering of quotes from media, etc. to make my point:

JULY 13
UT San Diego - 10am
Coronado police went to the mansion at 6:45 a.m. after a male relative of Shacknai called 911 to report a possible death. Officers found a woman who appeared to be “in distress,” sheriff’s officials said. Officers began lifesaving measures but the woman died.
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2011/jul/13/police-investigate-death-in-coronado-mansion/

SWRNN - 11:56am
Police officers responding to a report of a death at the beachfront estate in the 1000 block of Ocean Boulevard shortly after 8 a.m. found the woman in grave condition. Medics pronounced her dead at the scene a short time later.
http://www.swrnn.com/2011/07/13/womans-body-found-inside-coronado-mansion/

Fox5 San Diego - 3:54 pm
Coronado police went to the Spreckels Mansion at 1043 Ocean Blvd. at 6:48 a.m. in response to a 911 call from a guest, San Diego Sheriff's Capt. Tim Curran said. When they arrived, they found a dying woman on the grounds outside the house, he said. Paramedics were called, but they were unable to revive the woman and she was pronounced dead sometime before 8:20 a.m.
http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-spreckels-mansion-death-detectives-investigate-death-at-coronado-mansion-20110713,0,7304259.story

Mid morning first live media
SDSO Homicide Capt Curran:"She was in distress. Started life saving measures. Coronado Fire Department was here shortly thereafter. And shortly after that they pronounced her dead."
https://youtu.be/Q_6531dqnAs

CBS8 July - 2:33pm
(First report at end of article) Adam Shacknai… discovered the victim's body and called 911 around 6:48 a.m. ..and reported that a woman, who was staying at the mansion, was in distress, according to deputies.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15075598/questions-linger-about-womans-death-at-coronado-mansion?clienttype=printable

JULY 14
eCoronado - 12:30pm
Death at Spreckels Mansion may be suicide, authorities say (Yup, the very next day...)
Curran said that Adam Shacknai told police that he had cut down Nalepa's body in apparent hopes she was still alive.
http://www.ecoronado.com/profiles/blogs/death-at-spreckels-mansion-may

* * * * *

Then we get this little morsel of hearsay (I know I know… people make things up, but this account is notable cuz (1) this person said RZ was still alive and (2) the 8 second gap in the 911 call we have never been privy too. Remember the final portion of the Heartland call was not released and the part that was released by CBS8 was released by mistake? Maybe someone else got on the phone? (Just thinking out loud.)
http://www.cbs8.com/story/16150816/911-call-released-in-hanging-death-at-coronados-spreckels-mansion

JULY 27
San Diego Reader
TOM, an accountant
"… according to a friend of mine. She emailed me the day it happened and said that 911 had been called, and when they arrived, the naked girl was still alive, and the person who made the call was also Asian…".
http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2011/jul/27/citylights2-hanging-question-coronado/?page=3&

* * * * *

AND THEN we get brash, up and coming soon to be promoted medical examiner Jonathan Lucas:
SEPT 2
Press Conference page 19
ME LUCAS
All we can do is give an estimation. Based on everything available I'd say best guess would be before three o'clock in the morning. It could be a little bit after that but I'd say she'd been dead for probably a few hours or so before she was found.

* * * * *
IMHO until we see or hear depositions or statements from first responders as to rigor or blood pooling or breathing, Im inclined to suspect TOD was around 7AM. Why? (1) It blows Gore's erased dire Voice Mail message motive to smithereens and (2) it shaves timing just a wee too close for comfort for certain alibi. Don't forget that Lucas didn't even see RZ's body until 7:14PM, in the dark, 13+ hours after Adam's 911 call.

Eileen-
The disparities in the time she was pronounced are shocking. IF the EMTs were on scene at/near 645, why would they be calling her death at/after 8 AM?

I had not compared these reports before so thank you for sharing.

You are welcome, Freckles ~ It's all just too weird..

It's no secret that I believe foul play in Rebecca's death. Whoever pulled this off was brilliant. The perpetrator knew darn well the difficulty in proving, forensically, a homicidal hanging as opposed to a suicidal hanging. The perp would have been well counseled by a medical Doctor as to the degree of unconsciousness necessary to render Rebecca defenseless without causing suspiciously severe wounds to the brain.

As stated by Dr Wecht, the evidence of blunt force trauma to Rebecca's head was sufficient to have knocked her unconscious. Remember how shocked her family was at the funeral when they saw the big lump on her forehead?

If you haven't seen this before, here is an interesting case study:

Homicidal hanging masquerading as suicide.
Homicidal hanging is rare and presents special problems for the forensic pathologist. We report a case of homicide by hanging masquerading as suicide, in which the forensic evidence was of crucial importance.

The victim was a 61 years old man, who was found in his house suspended by a rope around his neck. The autopsy showed fresh bruises due to blunt trauma. Moreover, a voluminous subdural haematoma with brain swelling was found which indicated that the victim was unconscious at the time of the hanging. An obvious vital reaction consisting of cutaneous bleeding in the ligature mark supported the opinion that the deceased was alive and not dead at the time of the hanging.

The estimation of the time of death was of great importance, as only one other person could have been present at the estimated time interval. This person was later sentenced to prison for manslaughter.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9050221

Freckles wrote:Eileen-
The disparities in the time she was pronounced are shocking. IF the EMTs were on scene at/near 645, why would they be calling her death at/after 8 AM?

I had not compared these reports before so thank you for sharing.

Hi - My read on the first media reports and Curran's first pressie is that she was alive when first responders arrived and died shortly thereafter. So that would be close to 7AM and not at or after 8AM... Leaving the body exposed in the hot July sun for the entire day would conveniently compromise establishing a more precise time of death.

There are just too many oddities to have me believe it was a suicide. Including the new renovations that have yet to be fully approved.

Eileen_Dover wrote:

Freckles wrote:Eileen-
The disparities in the time she was pronounced are shocking. IF the EMTs were on scene at/near 645, why would they be calling her death at/after 8 AM?

I had not compared these reports before so thank you for sharing.

Hi - My read on the first media reports and Curran's first pressie is that she was alive when first responders arrived and died shortly thereafter. So that would be close to 7AM and not at or after 8AM... Leaving the body exposed in the hot July sun for the entire day would conveniently compromise establishing a more precise time of death.

Absolutely! And, IMO, that WAS intentional. Leaving the body for hours AND exposed the whole time. Like JS could not have requested a tent over her body at the very least. JS literally turned his back on the third "love" of his life. Shocking behavior on the part of ANY one.

If Rebecca was still alive and saveable WHY ISN'T MR. INJECTABLES driving down to help Adam with CPR?

Driving with regular traffic you can get from Clairemont to the bridge in five minutes. Take 163 South into downtown, to 5 off-ramp and there is the bridge. Wind your way around taking 'A' Avenue in Coronado I can't imagine that if you were speeding you couldn't be there in ten minutes.

Nobody told Jonah to stay! (or more laughable stay away) I say you get that news and burn hell fire to get home and help. Help Adam with CPR, find out what Adam is talking about, or just disaster control. But noooooooooooooo, he decided to take his newspaper, check the morning stocks, and have coffee at the hospital with his ex-wife. HA!!!!! I can't wait until they hang them!

Well, there was nothing for JS to do with Max at that point.
Max was in good hands and stabilized for the condition he was in. One would think JS would want to see Rebecca at the very least. Maybe hold her one last time? No. His actions were cold, cruel, and calculating.

The only way this man could be so evil was he had had found out Rebecca was planning on breaking up with him. He would show her--- NO ONE breaks up with JS!

Freckles wrote:

Eileen_Dover wrote:

Freckles wrote:Eileen-
The disparities in the time she was pronounced are shocking. IF the EMTs were on scene at/near 645, why would they be calling her death at/after 8 AM?

I had not compared these reports before so thank you for sharing.

Hi - My read on the first media reports and Curran's first pressie is that she was alive when first responders arrived and died shortly thereafter. So that would be close to 7AM and not at or after 8AM... Leaving the body exposed in the hot July sun for the entire day would conveniently compromise establishing a more precise time of death.

Absolutely! And, IMO, that WAS intentional. Leaving the body for hours AND exposed the whole time. Like JS could not have requested a tent over her body at the very least. JS literally turned his back on the third "love" of his life. Shocking behavior on the part of ANY one.

This happened EARLY on a TUESDAY morning!!!!!!!!!

Last time I checked Tuesday, July 12th, is a regular full staff working day!

Freckles wrote:Well, there was nothing for JS to do with Max at that point.
Max was in good hands and stabilized for the condition he was in. One would think JS would want to see Rebecca at the very least. Maybe hold her one last time? No. His actions were cold, cruel, and calculating.

The only way this man could be so evil was he had had found out Rebecca was planning on breaking up with him. He would show her--- NO ONE breaks up with JS!

It is obvious that Jonah did not want to be seen AT THE CRIME SCENE!

Nope, not JONAH SHACKNAI! Toooooo messy messy messy.

Eileen_Dover wrote:Warning: Loooooooooong comment ahead:-)

The amount of conflicting information in Rebecca's autopsy report leaves me ZERO confidence in the integrity of ANY aspect of the investigation. This includes TIME OF DEATH. Not only did the media repeat she was still (barely) alive when first responders arrived, even Capt. Curran SDSO homicide stated she was "in distress."

For fact we know that the Antemortem Events statement in RZ's Autopsy report contradicts the sequence of events in Adam's 911 call. It states Adam saw her hanging at 6:30AM, then ran to kitchen for knife, pulled up table, stood on it, cut her down, laid her on grass, removed blue cloth from mouth, tried CPR, THEN called 911 EIGHTEEN minutes later. (Hmmm… where have we heard this delay in calling 911 before? Yup, you got it. More coinkidinks...)

The Antemortem Events was signed by Dana Gary, ME Investigator on August 21 (38 days after Rebecca's death and 38 days after Adam's 911 call). Geez, can't anyone get their stories straight in this case?? Like HinkySD (TY) said above: WHEN YOU ARE TELLING THE TRUTH YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMEMBER SO HARD!

Sorry, got sidetracked. Back to Time of Death. The following is a smattering of quotes from media, etc. to make my point:

JULY 13
UT San Diego - 10am
Coronado police went to the mansion at 6:45 a.m. after a male relative of Shacknai called 911 to report a possible death. Officers found a woman who appeared to be “in distress,” sheriff’s officials said. Officers began lifesaving measures but the woman died.
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2011/jul/13/police-investigate-death-in-coronado-mansion/

SWRNN - 11:56am
Police officers responding to a report of a death at the beachfront estate in the 1000 block of Ocean Boulevard shortly after 8 a.m. found the woman in grave condition. Medics pronounced her dead at the scene a short time later.
http://www.swrnn.com/2011/07/13/womans-body-found-inside-coronado-mansion/

Fox5 San Diego - 3:54 pm
Coronado police went to the Spreckels Mansion at 1043 Ocean Blvd. at 6:48 a.m. in response to a 911 call from a guest, San Diego Sheriff's Capt. Tim Curran said. When they arrived, they found a dying woman on the grounds outside the house, he said. Paramedics were called, but they were unable to revive the woman and she was pronounced dead sometime before 8:20 a.m.
http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-spreckels-mansion-death-detectives-investigate-death-at-coronado-mansion-20110713,0,7304259.story

Mid morning first live media
SDSO Homicide Capt Curran:"She was in distress. Started life saving measures. Coronado Fire Department was here shortly thereafter. And shortly after that they pronounced her dead."
https://youtu.be/Q_6531dqnAs

CBS8 July - 2:33pm
(First report at end of article) Adam Shacknai… discovered the victim's body and called 911 around 6:48 a.m. ..and reported that a woman, who was staying at the mansion, was in distress, according to deputies.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15075598/questions-linger-about-womans-death-at-coronado-mansion?clienttype=printable

JULY 14
eCoronado - 12:30pm
Death at Spreckels Mansion may be suicide, authorities say (Yup, the very next day...)
Curran said that Adam Shacknai told police that he had cut down Nalepa's body in apparent hopes she was still alive.
http://www.ecoronado.com/profiles/blogs/death-at-spreckels-mansion-may

* * * * *

Then we get this little morsel of hearsay (I know I know… people make things up, but this account is notable cuz (1) this person said RZ was still alive and (2) the 8 second gap in the 911 call we have never been privy too. Remember the final portion of the Heartland call was not released and the part that was released by CBS8 was released by mistake? Maybe someone else got on the phone? (Just thinking out loud.)
http://www.cbs8.com/story/16150816/911-call-released-in-hanging-death-at-coronados-spreckels-mansion

JULY 27
San Diego Reader
TOM, an accountant
"… according to a friend of mine. She emailed me the day it happened and said that 911 had been called, and when they arrived, the naked girl was still alive, and the person who made the call was also Asian…".
http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2011/jul/27/citylights2-hanging-question-coronado/?page=3&

* * * * *

AND THEN we get brash, up and coming soon to be promoted medical examiner Jonathan Lucas:
SEPT 2
Press Conference page 19
ME LUCAS
All we can do is give an estimation. Based on everything available I'd say best guess would be before three o'clock in the morning. It could be a little bit after that but I'd say she'd been dead for probably a few hours or so before she was found.

* * * * *
IMHO until we see or hear depositions or statements from first responders as to rigor or blood pooling or breathing, Im inclined to suspect TOD was around 7AM. Why? (1) It blows Gore's erased dire Voice Mail message motive to smithereens and (2) it shaves timing just a wee too close for comfort for certain alibi. Don't forget that Lucas didn't even see RZ's body until 7:14PM, in the dark, 13+ hours after Adam's 911 call.

Eileen - TY

Another "excellent" post.

When you put a series of like things together to review at one time, it sure tells a story.

Why can't any of the powers that be see that these things don't add up. Not local, I expect nothing from them. But the AG should have enough staff to see that this just could not have happened the way that it is being told.

Thanks everyone for the great posts. We have so little information and we can see there is something wrong. Why can't others? They could just pick one of any of the points mentioned and see that something is not right.

Just so frustrating. The voters have spoken once. They are going to do it again. People do not like these kind of tactics.

Below is an interview with Sheriff Gore on CNN. Gore states Rebecca's death was first approached as a possible homicide. He also states he was not convinced until the last piece of forensic information, the toxicology report, that this was a unusual suicide.

If I am to believe LE first approached this case as a possible homicide, I also have to believe the 7-15 investigators and Crime Lab personnel allowed their crime scene to be compromised for 13+ hours. It is not logical that 7-15 investigators and crime lab personnel did not know the consequences involved in leaving forensic evidence on a body exposed for 13+ hours.

To believe Rebecca's death was first approached as a possible homicide, I must also believe it is acceptable to leave a nude murder victim exposed to the outdoor elements and public scrutiny for 13+ hours waiting on a medical examiner. This is not a standard practice of forensic medicine and highly unethical. A medical examiner is well trained and taught valuable forensic information can be lost in waiting 13+ hours. A plethora of evidence could exist on the victims body or be told by the condition of the body in the early hours.

Sheriff Gore was convinced this was a suicide after the toxicology results indicated Rebecca was not drugged. I can understand this logic if you consider had Rebecca been drugged it would have been difficult for her to commit this horrible act. I don't believe Sheriff Gore has ever stated why it took the toxicology results to convince him. Sheriff Gore has said all the DNA pointed to ONLY Rebecca. Then why did it take the toxicology results to convince Gore this was a suicide?

----------->
BURNETT: The Zahau family attorney, Ann Bremner, and Dr. Wecht, who is the man who just conducted another autopsy, which I'm going to ask you more about in a moment, have questioned this whole idea of the fact that she was -- Rebecca was naked when she died. That they said they usually aren't naked when people commit suicide, that would be highly unusual.

How did you become comfortable with this important aspect of the case?

GORE: This is definitely an unusual suicide. In fact, we approached it from the beginning, looking at a possible homicide. It was only until we got the results of all the forensic evidence, the DNA, the fingerprints. And I still wasn't convinced until we got the last piece of forensic information, which was the toxicology report. She had not been drugged.

And then the only logical explanation was suicide. So it's not unprecedented. Yes, it is unusual.

ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT - Aired November 18, 2011
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1111/18/ebo.01.html

More from this interview with Burnett, Sheriff Gore discusses Rebecca's cell phone journal. Gore tells us in her journal Rebecca talks about how she was treated by the rest of the family. Gore is using this to point out negativity and present this as another reason Rebecca was unhappy. In my opinion a journal is most commonly used to detail your life events. It is nonsensical for someone to lie in their personal journal. Mary Zahau has confirmed this is something that bothered her sister as it was discussed in conversations she had with Rebecca. Some have stated this is not true, Rebecca was not treated unkindly. In my opinion it is another conflict in stories and the true reality of the lives involved at the time of Rebecca's death.

-------->
BURNETT: Was there in your mind a link between her death and the death just a few days earlier of her boyfriend of three years' son who died while she was home taking care of him?

GORE: If we were responsible for watching over a 6-year-old and he had a tragic accident, which is what happened, which led to his death, how could you help but feel guilty about that? We think that was the case.

And as you pointed out, one of the main -- if you're going to commit naked suicide, one of the biggest causes is extreme guilt. So, we think that played a role in it.

There was also a journal kept on her cell phone that talks about concerns about her relationship with Jonah and how she was treated by the rest of the family. It was clear that she loved Max. And I think she saw that as her strongest link to Jonah. And when he died, I think she had real concern about what was going to happen with that relationship, what was her life going to be like.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1111/18/ebo.01.html

Lash - Excellent post / obsrvations. It is all very very sad.
Toxicology report was approved and signed on July 26, 2011 - 36 days before the Sept 2 Press Conference.

Thanks Lash. Doesn't Gore realize he makes no sense?

Hinky SD I will be your lookout if you do the same for me.

Thanks, Willow! ;>

This Ann Rule title will be released on November 27, 2012.

Last we heard Ann Rule was going to submit her chapters on the Zahau murder to Anne Bremner for review. I wonder if she is done writing. How can she be done writing on this unsolved murder that is still a developing story?



I'll just add my own caption to the cover 'YES, I GOT YOUR TEXT! I DON'T WANT TO TALK TO YOU OR YOUR SISTER!'

When Cain killed Abel, Abel's blood was calling from the ground.

Is this case in the hands of the AG again?

Nice to see Dumanis lost... Coronado residents want the right things to be done and that is admirable.

The San Diego Medical Examiner has a habit of explaining away evidence. When's the last time you have had tape residue on your legs? How about maybe NEVER!?!

On Sept. 7, 2011:
In Tuesday’s press release, medical examiner Dr. Jonathan Lucas responded to some of these concerns, but he also acknowledged that “as in any comprehensive investigation, some findings cannot be entirely explained.”

Lucas said it was not clear what the significance of possible tape residue found on Zahau’s left shin and right leg was, but “their position and size would have been unusual for evidence of leg binding.” The question Mr. Lucas, is not if they would have been unusual, but if they were possible evidence of a leg binding.

He dismissed the bruises on her scalp as “relatively minor” and suggested that she may have struck her head on the balcony when she jumped. However, he could not explain why a portion of the t-shirt around her neck was originally in her mouth, other than to say that “people can place material in their mouth prior to hanging.”

Tape residue on the legs:
Rebecca had taken a recent shower.
If there had been ANY legitimate reason for tape to be on her leg, and I can't think of any, she would have soaped that away in a shower.

There IS NO legitimate reason for the tape other than a temporary binding of the legs. (Perhaps it was placed there to make sure her legs were perfectly straight during rigor to suggest a hanging? Rather than the bent legs we saw at 7 AM ? Another foil, IMO. Pity law enforcement isn't trained to suspect the unusual and collect the evidence.)

I wondered if RZ had been placed in that wicker chair and her legs taped to the chair legs.

SDSO didn't even think the chair was worth looking at or even notable - yet it was turned over on it's side on the floor.

I wonder if the wicker chair had been examined if it would have also had tape residue on it.

Hi everyone, by the way

Is it interesting at all if you look side-by-side the Rebecca and the Max autopsies?

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/shacknai,%20max_report.pdf (Page 9, the "Torso")

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/zahau,%20rebecca_report.pdf (Page 14, the "Back")

I couldn't help but notice the similarities
Also interesting that the styles of reporting are noticably different, with one calling it the "Torso" and the other calling it the "Back."

Great posts and passion, everyone

Since I am unable to open the above autopsy files, do they show actual pictures? In the autopsy report for my daughter, they discussed the stab wounds on her torso and on her back. The torso was the chest and stomach (or the front area) and the back was actually her back area. That may be the difference in those reports above.

There are "no" pictures, no front/back drawings to indicate anything for Rebecca, which is odd...even Max's Autopsy Report had the front/back drawing in it and Max's report was done by the same M.E. as Rebecca's report - M.E. Lucas.

I've never seen an Autopsy Report without that drawing; just Rebecca's.

Why?

Puzzler wrote:There are "no" pictures, no front/back drawings to indicate anything for Rebecca, which is odd...even Max's Autopsy Report had the front/back drawing in it and Max's report was done by the same M.E. and Rebecca's report - M.E. Lucas.

I've never seen an Autopsy Report without that drawing; just Rebeca's.

Why?

BBM

This is from an ME that I know:

Re: Autopsy Photos

They are not typically released as part of the autopsy report. A body sketch is always done and is sometimes included with the report. Usually when an ME does a suspicious suicide or homicide case they will state that photos were taken, but they are done by LE usually, so if the photos are not sent with the report, it may mean that the ME doesn't have them. Only individuals involved in the investigation will have access to them, including people hired by the family.

It is not standard procedure to release photos from an AR unless the death is being investigated and then the family most likely will have them.

GlaringError wrote:Hi everyone, by the way

Is it interesting at all if you look side-by-side the Rebecca and the Max autopsies?

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/shacknai,%20max_report.pdf (Page 9, the "Torso")

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/zahau,%20rebecca_report.pdf (Page 14, the "Back")

I couldn't help but notice the similarities
Also interesting that the styles of reporting are noticably different, with one calling it the "Torso" and the other calling it the "Back."

Great posts and passion, everyone

"Comment: The scene examination was performed under suboptimal lighting and examination conditions."

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/zahau,%20rebecca_report.pdf
_______________________________________________________________

Interesting.

An official "hello", GlaringError, and welcome to RC!

Medical terminology is somewhat specific to each health care professional. Most have "templates" of terms and phrases they use over and over in dictations. (I do!) I might use the term "torso", another professional might say "trunk" for the same area. If you are familiar with a specific individual's typical style of dictation (just as individual posters have a style), you can pick out their style from others.

For example, I have read so many dictations from our surgeons, I could tell you who dictated each one without ever seeing the signatures. They are that distinctive. An ME's typical dictation would be distinguishable to those that know him/ her well professionally,imo.

KZ wrote:An official "hello", GlaringError, and welcome to RC!

Medical terminology is somewhat specific to each health care professional. Most have "templates" of terms and phrases they use over and over in dictations. (I do!) I might use the term "torso", another professional might say "trunk" for the same area. If you are familiar with a specific individual's typical style of dictation (just as individual posters have a style), you can pick out their style from others.

For example, I have read so many dictations from our surgeons, I could tell you who dictated each one without ever seeing the signatures. They are that distinctive. An ME's typical dictation would be distinguishable to those that know him/ her well professionally,imo.

Both autopsy reports signed by Jonathan R. Lucas, signed off 9-2-11

MS's initialed JRL:SCC:clb [note: who is SCC?]
dictated 7/18/11 transcribed 6/19/11 REVised or REViewed (?) 9/2/11
Neuropathological report signed: 8/23/11
(by Lawrence A Hansen, MD)

RZ's initialed JRL:CN:clb [note: who is CN?]
dictated 7/14/11 transcribed 7/15/11 REVised or REViewed (?) 9/2/11
Toxicology approved and signed: 07/26/2011
(by Iain M. McIntyre, Ph.D, reviewed by Catherine E. Hamm)

In MS report, TORSO refers to back:
On the mid thoracic back there is…..
Also on midline over the upper lumbar back…..
On the lower right flank…
On the lateral right buttock…

Hi KZ - in this case both reports were dictated and transcribed by same person, thus terminology would be expected to be same IMO.

Why were these 2 reports REVised or REViewed (not sure what REV is)?

Looking at Michael Jackson's AR (with illustrations BTW), JonBenet Ramsey's AR, Anna Nicole Smith AR,and others for examples, I have yet to find an autopsy report that is signed by coroner or ME, transcribed, then REV. Do you know what that means?

(not addressing KZ on this, just observation) Also, note to comment above about illustrations, at the Sept 2 PC an illustration of MS' injuries was presented, while an illustration of RZ was not. That is what the comment is referring to. Not to the AR reports.

TYA

Let's look at another excerpt of the Erin Burnett Outfront interview with Gore aired November 18, 2011:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. CYRIL WECHT: I believe that if the body had just plummeted down with that sheer drop of several feet, then the cervical vertebrae would have been fractured or dislocated, separated, one from the other, or from the base of the skull. And that was not present as found in the original autopsy, nor by me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: How do you explain that lack of injury to her neck?

GORE: The medical examiner here in San Diego that actually did the autopsy, Dr. John Lucas, said as a matter of fact the research shows that only a minority of hangings have the vertical -- the vertebrae fractured in the manner which Dr. Wecht described. So I think he was misinformed on his science.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1111/18/ebo.01.html

* * * * *
Okey Dokey. Let's look at the science Mr Gore.
There are two excellent sites on long drop hangings. The first, "Lost All Hope" is definitely worth a read for anyone contemplating suicide. As stated on its Home Page: "Welcome to Lost All Hope - one of the most comprehensive suicide resources on the web."

Let's jump to Suicide Methods > Hanging (Note: Rebecca allegedly dropped 9 feet 2 inches)
"Drop hanging. This method was typically used for judicial hangings, where a trap door opens and the person drops somewhere between 5 and 9 feet. The force of the drop, coupled with the positioning of the noose, violently jerks the head back, thereby rupturing the spinal cord causing instant deep unconsciousness and rapid death.
http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/hanging

Now let's move on to Hanging > Drop hanging
"This is purported (see Stone1 and Clark2) to cause very quick, and almost painless (possibly for a millisecond) death by way of fracture-dislocation of the upper neck vertebrae, which crushes or severs the spinal cord leading to immediate unconsciousness (in a matter of milliseconds). The cause of death is asphyxiation, which occurs whilst comatose.
http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/hanging/drop-hanging

The rest of the page is chock-a-block with info on considerations as to rope, knot positioning, drop, etc.

A must for all suicide by hanging wannabes is the page on "Danger of failing & reliability." Note danger #3:
"In drop hanging, drop not long enough to break the neck. This will result in an unpleasant suspension hanging where there is intense pressure on the neck.
http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/hanging/dangers-failing-reliability

References Stone and Clark can be found at the following. Will comment on Long Drop hanging SCIENCE from this source separately:
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging2.html#long

* * * * *
Such a shame Rebecca didn't access these sites before taking her naked gagged bound barefoot flip into history. She would have known that ideally the drop should be straight down and also the knot should be under the chin, among other morsels of must-reads.

Oh yes, and please, ME Lucas and Sheriff Gore, show us your sources that state only a minority of long drop hangings result in a vertebrae fracture. If the objective in a long drop hanging is a swift broken neck, and that happens in the MINORITY of cases, well then… sorry but that makes absolutely NO [expletive] sense whatsoever.

From Eileen's posting above:
Now let's move on to Hanging > Drop hanging
"This is purported (see Stone1 and Clark2) to cause very quick, and almost painless (possibly for a millisecond) death by way of fracture-dislocation of the upper neck vertebrae, which crushes or severs the spinal cord leading to immediate unconsciousness (in a matter of milliseconds). The cause of death is asphyxiation, which occurs whilst comatose.
http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/hanging/drop-hanging

Does this, other than the hanging part, sound to you all like what happened to Max?
The description sounds to me exactly what happened to him.

Great information Eileen.
KZ, thanks as always, for your expertise.

Eileen said:
" Such a shame Rebecca didn't access these sites before taking her naked gagged bound barefoot flip into history. She would have known that ideally the drop should be straight down and also the knot should be under the chin, among other morsels of must-reads. "

--- She didn't have time. She was busy accessing porn websites. Both before and after she hung herself, remember?

ThirdEye wrote:I would think 99% of people who saw someone hanging would think suicide as murder by hanging is extremely rare, and he may not have noticed her hands and feet were tied in those first shocking moments.

Jonah, knowing what Rebecca's state of mind was the day and night before, would have assumed it was suicide as well. Again, murder by hanging is very, very RARE.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, I would have assumed it was suicide UNTIL I saw that her hands and feet were tied and that a shirt, used as a gag was wrapped around her head 3 times and stuffed into her mouth. Then, logic and reasoning would take over and I would realize she'd been murdered.

Hinky's Mimi wrote:

ThirdEye wrote:I would think 99% of people who saw someone hanging would think suicide as murder by hanging is extremely rare, and he may not have noticed her hands and feet were tied in those first shocking moments.

Jonah, knowing what Rebecca's state of mind was the day and night before, would have assumed it was suicide as well. Again, murder by hanging is very, very RARE.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, I would have assumed it was suicide UNTIL I saw that her hands and feet were tied and that a shirt, used as a gag was wrapped around her head 3 times and stuffed into her mouth. Then, logic and reasoning would take over and I would realize she'd been murdered.

Hanging is an act.
The circumstances would determine if it is a suicide or homicide.

As a lay person, I would just be responding to the utter horror of the spectacle initially, and not drawing any conclusions.
It is so clearly unnatural.

Tamta wrote:

Hinky's Mimi wrote:

ThirdEye wrote:I would think 99% of people who saw someone hanging would think suicide as murder by hanging is extremely rare, and he may not have noticed her hands and feet were tied in those first shocking moments.

Jonah, knowing what Rebecca's state of mind was the day and night before, would have assumed it was suicide as well. Again, murder by hanging is very, very RARE.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, I would have assumed it was suicide UNTIL I saw that her hands and feet were tied and that a shirt, used as a gag was wrapped around her head 3 times and stuffed into her mouth. Then, logic and reasoning would take over and I would realize she'd been murdered.

Hanging is an act.
The circumstances would determine if it is a suicide or homicide.

As a lay person, I would just be responding to the utter horror of the spectacle initially, and not drawing any conclusions.
It is so clearly unnatural.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My friend did commit suicide by hanging. My first conclusion was that he had hung himself. There was nothing to indicate anything other than that. He certainly didn't strip down naked and tie his hands and feet and gag himself and, if he had been found that way, I'd have concluded someone killed him. In his case, a suicide note arrived in the mail the following day so it was clear he had planned it at least somewhat in advance. I still think it's ridiculous to try and visualize someone tying their feet... then gagging themselves (because you couldn't gag yourself after you tied your hands)... and then tying their hands and then hopping over to a balcony and, without using hands, toss themselves over the railing. It's incredulous to me that some people would buy that scenario.
You might surprise yourself with how much you would conclude even while being shocked by a sight of something... but maybe not... I'm sure it's according to the individual.

Hinky's Mimi wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Hinky's Mimi wrote:

ThirdEye wrote:I would think 99% of people who saw someone hanging would think suicide as murder by hanging is extremely rare, and he may not have noticed her hands and feet were tied in those first shocking moments.

Jonah, knowing what Rebecca's state of mind was the day and night before, would have assumed it was suicide as well. Again, murder by hanging is very, very RARE.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, I would have assumed it was suicide UNTIL I saw that her hands and feet were tied and that a shirt, used as a gag was wrapped around her head 3 times and stuffed into her mouth. Then, logic and reasoning would take over and I would realize she'd been murdered.

Hanging is an act.
The circumstances would determine if it is a suicide or homicide.

As a lay person, I would just be responding to the utter horror of the spectacle initially, and not drawing any conclusions.
It is so clearly unnatural.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My friend did commit suicide by hanging. My first conclusion was that he had hung himself. There was nothing to indicate anything other than that. He certainly didn't strip down naked and tie his hands and feet and gag himself and, if he had been found that way, I'd have concluded someone killed him. In his case, a suicide note arrived in the mail the following day so it was clear he had planned it at least somewhat in advance. I still think it's ridiculous to try and visualize someone tying their feet... then gagging themselves (because you couldn't gag yourself after you tied your hands)... and then tying their hands and then hopping over to a balcony and, without using hands, toss themselves over the railing. It's incredulous to me that some people would buy that scenario.
You might surprise yourself with how much you would conclude even while being shocked by a sight of something... but maybe not... I'm sure it's according to the individual.

I just know myself and I would be horrified for quite some time before thinking.

I probably would not assume it was suicide after the initial shock had worn off.

IMO certain characteristics of RZs hanging are circumstances.

Great posts!

SCREAM FOR 'HELLLLLP!' + GAG IN MOUTH = MURDER!

Eileen_Dover wrote:Let's look at another excerpt of the Erin Burnett Outfront interview with Gore aired November 18, 2011:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. CYRIL WECHT: I believe that if the body had just plummeted down with that sheer drop of several feet, then the cervical vertebrae would have been fractured or dislocated, separated, one from the other, or from the base of the skull. And that was not present as found in the original autopsy, nor by me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: How do you explain that lack of injury to her neck?

GORE: The medical examiner here in San Diego that actually did the autopsy, Dr. John Lucas, said as a matter of fact the research shows that only a minority of hangings have the vertical -- the vertebrae fractured in the manner which Dr. Wecht described. So I think he was misinformed on his science.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1111/18/ebo.01.html

* * * * *
Okey Dokey. Let's look at the science Mr Gore.
There are two excellent sites on long drop hangings. The first, "Lost All Hope" is definitely worth a read for anyone contemplating suicide. As stated on its Home Page: "Welcome to Lost All Hope - one of the most comprehensive suicide resources on the web."

Let's jump to Suicide Methods > Hanging (Note: Rebecca allegedly dropped 9 feet 2 inches)
"Drop hanging. This method was typically used for judicial hangings, where a trap door opens and the person drops somewhere between 5 and 9 feet. The force of the drop, coupled with the positioning of the noose, violently jerks the head back, thereby rupturing the spinal cord causing instant deep unconsciousness and rapid death.
http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/hanging

Now let's move on to Hanging > Drop hanging
"This is purported (see Stone1 and Clark2) to cause very quick, and almost painless (possibly for a millisecond) death by way of fracture-dislocation of the upper neck vertebrae, which crushes or severs the spinal cord leading to immediate unconsciousness (in a matter of milliseconds). The cause of death is asphyxiation, which occurs whilst comatose.
http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/hanging/drop-hanging

The rest of the page is chock-a-block with info on considerations as to rope, knot positioning, drop, etc.

A must for all suicide by hanging wannabes is the page on "Danger of failing & reliability." Note danger #3:
"In drop hanging, drop not long enough to break the neck. This will result in an unpleasant suspension hanging where there is intense pressure on the neck.
http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/hanging/dangers-failing-reliability

References Stone and Clark can be found at the following. Will comment on Long Drop hanging SCIENCE from this source separately:
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging2.html#long

* * * * *
Such a shame Rebecca didn't access these sites before taking her naked gagged bound barefoot flip into history. She would have known that ideally the drop should be straight down and also the knot should be under the chin, among other morsels of must-reads.

Oh yes, and please, ME Lucas and Sheriff Gore, show us your sources that state only a minority of long drop hangings result in a vertebrae fracture. If the objective in a long drop hanging is a swift broken neck, and that happens in the MINORITY of cases, well then… sorry but that makes absolutely NO [expletive] sense whatsoever.

Ugh! That is the point!!! This was another one of the Lucas/Gore lie-combos!

Dr. John Lucas, said as a matter of fact the research shows that only a minority of hangings have the vertical -- the vertebrae fractured in the manner which Dr. Wecht described

Since this was so clearly a lie, omission, trick, whatever; The next question should have been IS THAT BECAUSE A MINORITY OF HANGINGS ARE NOT LONG DROP, MR LUCAS? WHAT ABOUT THE RESEARCH AND INFORMATION PERTINENT TO THIS CASE?

Lucas was coached to beat around the bush and he did a damn fine job of it! Give that son of a bitch a promotion why dontcha? He knew he was being questioned about THIS CASE. Yet, Lucas starts out talking about general majority (step-off-a-chair hangings) and uses stats bout the entire populations of hangings.

[:blood boiling:]

Eileen_Dover wrote:

KZ wrote:An official "hello", GlaringError, and welcome to RC!

Medical terminology is somewhat specific to each health care professional. Most have "templates" of terms and phrases they use over and over in dictations. (I do!) I might use the term "torso", another professional might say "trunk" for the same area. If you are familiar with a specific individual's typical style of dictation (just as individual posters have a style), you can pick out their style from others.

For example, I have read so many dictations from our surgeons, I could tell you who dictated each one without ever seeing the signatures. They are that distinctive. An ME's typical dictation would be distinguishable to those that know him/ her well professionally,imo.

Both autopsy reports signed by Jonathan R. Lucas, signed off 9-2-11

MS's initialed JRL:SCC:clb [note: who is SCC?]
dictated 7/18/11 transcribed 6/19/11 REVised or REViewed (?) 9/2/11
Neuropathological report signed: 8/23/11
(by Lawrence A Hansen, MD)

RZ's initialed JRL:CN:clb [note: who is CN?]
dictated 7/14/11 transcribed 7/15/11 REVised or REViewed (?) 9/2/11
Toxicology approved and signed: 07/26/2011
(by Iain M. McIntyre, Ph.D, reviewed by Catherine E. Hamm)

In MS report, TORSO refers to back:
On the mid thoracic back there is…..
Also on midline over the upper lumbar back…..
On the lower right flank…
On the lateral right buttock…

Hi KZ - in this case both reports were dictated and transcribed by same person, thus terminology would be expected to be same IMO.

Why were these 2 reports REVised or REViewed (not sure what REV is)?

Looking at Michael Jackson's AR (with illustrations BTW), JonBenet Ramsey's AR, Anna Nicole Smith AR,and others for examples, I have yet to find an autopsy report that is signed by coroner or ME, transcribed, then REV. Do you know what that means?

(not addressing KZ on this, just observation) Also, note to comment above about illustrations, at the Sept 2 PC an illustration of MS' injuries was presented, while an illustration of RZ was not. That is what the comment is referring to. Not to the AR reports.

TYA

Eileen-- I'm not sure of ME office protocol in regards to signing off on official records. It could be that the "REV" (review) is a required step in the conclusion of some categories of autopsy reports. Or, it could be the "review" and "electronic signature" of the individual who dictated the report, which was transcribed, but not "certified" by the author yet. Or it could be the review or "certification" process by which the case is officially concluded (by a second reviewer?), once all outside tests have been completed and returned-- with an opportunity for the author or reviewer to revise and add information.

I really don't know what their typical procedures are, with regard to electronic records. But I do have confidence that there are layers and layers of policies and procedures about the initiation and conclusion of case record.

I will say that I have always thought that there are diagrams associated with RZ's autopsy, that were simply not made available to the public, for whatever reasons. It is a standard autopsy tool, and it appears that many ME's use this note-taking diagram as a memory guide to their more formal dictation. I'm also aware that many ME's dictate as they do an autopsy-- but have no idea how these recordings are used or managed. Are they considered "notes" and discarded after a certain interval? Are they kept? Transcribed? I just don't know. My role in health care is with the living. It would be handy to have a RC pathologist on staff to answer these types of questions!

Willow123 wrote:

Does this, other than the hanging part, sound to you all like what happened to Max?
The description sounds to me exactly what happened to him.

Great information Eileen.
KZ, thanks as always, for your expertise.

Snipped and BBM.

No, I don't think that is what happened to Max. He had no bone or ligament damage to his spinal column at autopsy. It appears to have been a stretch and tear type injury, very high in the spinal cord-- without damage to the bony or ligamentous spinal column. That can certainly cause cardiac arrest.

There is a great deal of blogosphere speculation about Max's death-- that "somehow" if the right amount, or right quality, or right time of CPR was initiated, that he could have survived. Some even speculate that RZ was negligent, or even unknowingly withheld oxygen (via inadequate CPR) and "caused" the brain damage that killed Max. Some folks compare Max's cardiac arrest to the electrical arrests of sports figures who have been saved after 70+ min of CPR, as an example that Max could have been saved. To these individuals, I recommend that they go back and read the autopsy report. The top ("rostral") 2 cm of the cord was necrotic (dead tissue) at post. Not the whole cord, not even the part affected by pertinent arteries. The rostral 2 cm's alone were necrotic. That is highly significant. The tonsillar pillars were necrotic and friable (fragmenting and falling apart) at autopsy. They get that way by herniating thru the foramen magnum over a day or 2.

The ME described this death accurately, imo. The very prolonged episode of aystole (flatline) that was at least 30 min witnessed duration, finally produced ROSC (return of spontaneous circulation) after 2 rounds of epi. He never had a shockable rhythm-- hence, no discussion of defibrillation. His "rhythm" was one that defib is not indicated for (aystole or PEA). If he had been laying on the floor for a long time before being discovered, it's unlikely that 2 rounds of epi would have re-started his 6yo heart. Aysytole is typically a confirmation of death, more than a "dysrhythmia" to be treated. The survival to discharge for out of hospital asystole (at any age, from any reason) is abysmal.

ROSC produced circulation to his brain-- anoxic/ hypoxic for a looong 30 min. Reperfusion produced profound global hypoxic edema. That lead to tremendously increased intracranial pressure over hours (even despite the 7 1/2 inch saggital suture skull fracture), which ultimately herniated his brain. And he had a ventriculostomy in place, also-- all of these "vents" in the skull still were not enough to reduce the effects of the increasing cerebral edema. His brain was about 1/3 heavier than it should have been at post-- swollen and saturated with edema.

Immediate oxygen at the scene of the accident, and the "most" expert CPR at the moment of arrest, would not have saved this child, imo. This is not rocket science. Nor does it require a high level of health care/ neuro expertise to explain why this child's central nervous system could not survive or recover from the injuries sustained, and the sequelae to the long code at the scene. The biggest surprise is that there was no damage to the bony or ligamentous spinal column.


Oh-- and a warm "MEOW" to my kitty fans!

KZ wrote:

Eileen_Dover wrote:

KZ wrote:An official "hello", GlaringError, and welcome to RC!

Medical terminology is somewhat specific to each health care professional. Most have "templates" of terms and phrases they use over and over in dictations. (I do!) I might use the term "torso", another professional might say "trunk" for the same area. If you are familiar with a specific individual's typical style of dictation (just as individual posters have a style), you can pick out their style from others.

For example, I have read so many dictations from our surgeons, I could tell you who dictated each one without ever seeing the signatures. They are that distinctive. An ME's typical dictation would be distinguishable to those that know him/ her well professionally,imo.

Both autopsy reports signed by Jonathan R. Lucas, signed off 9-2-11

MS's initialed JRL:SCC:clb [note: who is SCC?]
dictated 7/18/11 transcribed 6/19/11 REVised or REViewed (?) 9/2/11
Neuropathological report signed: 8/23/11
(by Lawrence A Hansen, MD)

RZ's initialed JRL:CN:clb [note: who is CN?]
dictated 7/14/11 transcribed 7/15/11 REVised or REViewed (?) 9/2/11
Toxicology approved and signed: 07/26/2011
(by Iain M. McIntyre, Ph.D, reviewed by Catherine E. Hamm)

In MS report, TORSO refers to back:
On the mid thoracic back there is…..
Also on midline over the upper lumbar back…..
On the lower right flank…
On the lateral right buttock…

Hi KZ - in this case both reports were dictated and transcribed by same person, thus terminology would be expected to be same IMO.

Why were these 2 reports REVised or REViewed (not sure what REV is)?

Looking at Michael Jackson's AR (with illustrations BTW), JonBenet Ramsey's AR, Anna Nicole Smith AR,and others for examples, I have yet to find an autopsy report that is signed by coroner or ME, transcribed, then REV. Do you know what that means?

(not addressing KZ on this, just observation) Also, note to comment above about illustrations, at the Sept 2 PC an illustration of MS' injuries was presented, while an illustration of RZ was not. That is what the comment is referring to. Not to the AR reports.

TYA

Eileen-- I'm not sure of ME office protocol in regards to signing off on official records. It could be that the "REV" (review) is a required step in the conclusion of some categories of autopsy reports. Or, it could be the "review" and "electronic signature" of the individual who dictated the report, which was transcribed, but not "certified" by the author yet. Or it could be the review or "certification" process by which the case is officially concluded (by a second reviewer?), once all outside tests have been completed and returned-- with an opportunity for the author or reviewer to revise and add information.

I really don't know what their typical procedures are, with regard to electronic records. But I do have confidence that there are layers and layers of policies and procedures about the initiation and conclusion of case record.

I will say that I have always thought that there are diagrams associated with RZ's autopsy, that were simply not made available to the public, for whatever reasons. It is a standard autopsy tool, and it appears that many ME's use this note-taking diagram as a memory guide to their more formal dictation. I'm also aware that many ME's dictate as they do an autopsy-- but have no idea how these recordings are used or managed. Are they considered "notes" and discarded after a certain interval? Are they kept? Transcribed? I just don't know. My role in health care is with the living. It would be handy to have a RC pathologist on staff to answer these types of questions!

BBM

My friend is an ME and he told me that SOMETIMES the diagrams will be included in the report and sometimes they will not.

Photos are taken of suspicious deaths, but usually by LE who will have an investigator attend the autopsy, and those photos will be in the possession of LE, and not in the report, but usually noted by the ME to have been taken.

Hi everyone. I'm new to RC. This case has intrigued me from when I first saw the stories and photos on the internet last July. I know the case is closed now and the death was ruled due to suicide.

I had read at the Hinky Meter and other forums and was shocked by the cavalier manner which L.E. treated the crime scene and eye and ear witnesses. The mistakes and oversights reminded me of how L.E. handled the Jonbenet Ramsey case.

Though this case was closed I hope the AG agrees to investigate it. Certain questions will loom until the end of time if they don't and I'm sure any innocent parties want their names cleared of suspicion so they can move on with their lives.

Hinky's Mimi wrote:

ThirdEye wrote:I would think 99% of people who saw someone hanging would think suicide as murder by hanging is extremely rare, and he may not have noticed her hands and feet were tied in those first shocking moments.

Jonah, knowing what Rebecca's state of mind was the day and night before, would have assumed it was suicide as well. Again, murder by hanging is very, very RARE.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, I would have assumed it was suicide UNTIL I saw that her hands and feet were tied and that a shirt, used as a gag was wrapped around her head 3 times and stuffed into her mouth. Then, logic and reasoning would take over and I would realize she'd been murdered.

And that is when the dispatcher would hear something like this, "WTF?? I am trying to give her CPR but her hands and feet are tied! I need someone here now! I don't know how to handle this! My brother is JS and he is at the hospital with his little boy. Could someone please page him? What am I going to do? How soon will someone be here?"