Rebecca Zahau Found Dead at Historic Mansion 7/13/11

Many people have expressed their theories on how Rebecca died. However, no matter how you look at it expressing a theory will never equal an accusation. They are two different things never to be confused.

It is the most natural thing in the world to suspect murder when a naked dead woman is found gagged with her hands and especially legs bound after a reportly loud party during which two different neighbors heard a woman scream for help.

That people have questioned this 'suicide' should come as no surprise. Rebecca was found to have multiple bodily injuries and bloodshed. Also a neighbor reported seeing Dina on the propertly the night of Rebecca's death and right before two other neighbors heard the scream for help. Nina and Adam admitted to being on the property the night of the death with Adam as the only person who claimed to have last seen her alive and also the first to find her dead. Also, L.E. claims Jonah left Rebecca a nasty VM that night as well. Is it any wonder why anyone might suspect a member of this family of foul play? They all apparently had access to her by proximity.

In my opinion the circumstances of how or if Rebecca died from hanging is questionable. Allegedly, Adam was the only eye witness and his polygraph test result was inconclusive. To my knowledge there are no facts as to how she really died. The suicide ruling appeared to be based on hearsay assumptions that began with an evaporating trigger voicemail message and ended with the various and inconsistent accounts of what Adam allegedly did when he allegedly found her 'hanging'.

It seems that L.E. did not do a thorough job in ruling these people out since none of them seem to have provable alibis. This is not an accusation but a question. It is HUMAN nature to question such a violent and suspicious death.

I wonder if Nina Romano would question the suicide ruling if it was her sister DINA Shacknai that was found naked, bruised, tied up, gagged, and dead.

KZ wrote: Eileen-- I'm not sure of ME office protocol in regards to signing off on official records. It could be that the "REV" (review) is a required step in the conclusion of some categories of autopsy reports. Or, it could be the "review" and "electronic signature" of the individual who dictated the report, which was transcribed, but not "certified" by the author yet. Or it could be the review or "certification" process by which the case is officially concluded (by a second reviewer?), once all outside tests have been completed and returned-- with an opportunity for the author or reviewer to revise and add information.

I really don't know what their typical procedures are, with regard to electronic records. But I do have confidence that there are layers and layers of policies and procedures about the initiation and conclusion of case record.

I will say that I have always thought that there are diagrams associated with RZ's autopsy, that were simply not made available to the public, for whatever reasons. It is a standard autopsy tool, and it appears that many ME's use this note-taking diagram as a memory guide to their more formal dictation. I'm also aware that many ME's dictate as they do an autopsy-- but have no idea how these recordings are used or managed. Are they considered "notes" and discarded after a certain interval? Are they kept? Transcribed? I just don't know. My role in health care is with the living. It would be handy to have a RC pathologist on staff to answer these types of questions!

TY KZ! I have downloaded more autopsy reports than I care to ever see again, yet not a single one as a Review. That's why found it curious that both MS' and RZ's were reviewed the day of the Press Conference. Even with all the polemic around Michael Jackson and JonBenet's deaths and their subsequent press conferences, neither were 'reviewed.'

BBM Calling all pathologists and MEs (hello ME Lucas?). Please feel free to chime in here in your spare time to clarify. Am sure there's a "valid" explanation. Greatly appreciated

Freckles wrote:

Hinky's Mimi wrote:

ThirdEye wrote:I would think 99% of people who saw someone hanging would think suicide as murder by hanging is extremely rare, and he may not have noticed her hands and feet were tied in those first shocking moments.

Jonah, knowing what Rebecca's state of mind was the day and night before, would have assumed it was suicide as well. Again, murder by hanging is very, very RARE.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, I would have assumed it was suicide UNTIL I saw that her hands and feet were tied and that a shirt, used as a gag was wrapped around her head 3 times and stuffed into her mouth. Then, logic and reasoning would take over and I would realize she'd been murdered.

And that is when the dispatcher would hear something like this, "WTF?? I am trying to give her CPR but her hands and feet are tied! I need someone here now! I don't know how to handle this! My brother is JS and he is at the hospital with his little boy. Could someone please page him? What am I going to do? How soon will someone be here?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is exactly what I meant by my previous comment and I was not very clear. I should have specified that, 'if I were the person who found Rebecca and had to call 911 then I would conclude'
Confronted with a body hanging by the neck and being the first one to have to explain I would call 911 and say, in part,
"I think she hung herself."
Seeing her legs and arms tied and that elephant-in-the-room and over-kill GAG around her head and in her mouth, I would call 911 and say, in part,
"Someone hung her."
Probably, the bruises and scratches wouldn't even register for me yet... but, the GAG? Yes, I'd see the gag as my first impulse would be to try and get that rope from around her neck, get her down and get some air into her lungs NOW! ...and, so I would notice right away that there's this little matter of a gag in the way and the type of gag would register with me. (Wouldn't it with anyone? She's got a SHIRT wrapped around her head!)
Believe me, your first impulse is to get the person down and the rope off even if you can see the person is dead. If nothing else, it feels respectful towards the dead. You couldn't miss seeing the bindings and the gag and, being forced into conversation (by questions being asked) during a 911 call makes a difference in how you will perceive/describe any crisis.

Wig-o-matic wrote:Many people have expressed their theories on how Rebecca died. However, no matter how you look at it expressing a theory will never equal an accusation. They are two different things never to be confused.

It is the most natural thing in the world to suspect murder when a naked dead woman is found gagged with her hands and especially legs bound after a reportly loud party during which two different neighbors heard a woman scream for help.

That people have questioned this 'suicide' should come as no surprise. Rebecca was found to have multiple bodily injuries and bloodshed. Also a neighbor reported seeing Dina on the propertly the night of Rebecca's death and right before two other neighbors heard the scream for help. Nina and Adam admitted to being on the property the night of the death with Adam as the only person who claimed to have last seen her alive and also the first to find her dead. Also, L.E. claims Jonah left Rebecca a nasty VM that night as well. Is it any wonder why anyone might suspect a member of this family of foul play? They all apparently had access to her by proximity.

In my opinion the circumstances of how or if Rebecca died from hanging is questionable. Allegedly, Adam was the only eye witness and his polygraph test result was inconclusive. To my knowledge there are no facts as to how she really died. The suicide ruling appeared to be based on hearsay assumptions that began with an evaporating trigger voicemail message and ended with the various and inconsistent accounts of what Adam allegedly did when he allegedly found her 'hanging'.

It seems that L.E. did not do a thorough job in ruling these people out since none of them seem to have provable alibis. This is not an accusation but a question. It is HUMAN nature to question such a violent and suspicious death.

There was no party. That is a smoke-screen.
How do you know that it was "during" this purported loud party...? Were you present?
Who is the eye witness to the so-called "party" and the scream being heard at the same time?

Did any of the neighbors also report cars or lights at the residence?

Matter of fact, NS states she WAS at the residence that evening and the property was dark except for one light seen to be from the first level interior landing, and a second light seen from the back gate to be coming from the hanging room.

Where is this so-called party? Witnesses? Who was present? Have they come forth to give statements? Why didn't NS see these party goers when she was at the residence?

As I understood it, there was to be a party but that it got cancelled after Max fell and was in the hospital.

It's been excused away in all ways. Disgusting!

I do not believe they were having a planned party. Gabby and Ethan on a supposed 'pre-scheduled' departure. Xena just arriving for a nice two week vacaton.

A party starts no later than 8:00pm. There was no party.

SCREAM FOR HELLLP! + GAG IN MOUTH + LOUD MUSIC TO INSURE NO NOISE COULD BE HEARD = MURDER!

The only thing that can be construed as a party is two CRAZED 40 something women, a numbskull pervert, and a tied up and tortured dead beautiful asian woman. Some party!?!

I agree - "scream for help" "gag in mouth" = murder.

Simple.

I also agree.

Hi Freckles-

IIRC, the initial stories reported that there was a loud party on the property. I never read or heard any evidence that it had been cancelled nor did I read that neighbors reported lots of cars on the property. The only thing I remember was I thought that it was odd the media reported that a party had taken place on the property.

Could it be that the loud music, scream and neighbor report of Dina on the property was mistaken for party activity. Nina and Adam were also there. I can see how that could seem like a party to outsiders.

I also thought there was a story that reported that Rebecca was looking forward to the party. I wonder if L.E. thoroughly investigated this party angle. There could be some important clues to how Rebecca 'got dead' there.

Also, I don't buy into that Adam found her 'hanging'. His testimony doesn't seem stable to me give that his LDT was inconclusive and he was never retested. I would think he would have gone with the recommendation for retesting if for no other reason than to clear up any doubt cast upon him.

Wig-o-matic wrote:Hi Freckles-

IIRC, the initial stories reported that there was a loud party on the property. I never read or heard any evidence that it had been cancelled nor did I read that neighbors reported lots of cars on the property. The only thing I remember was I thought that it was odd the media reported that a party had taken place on the property.

Could it be that the loud music, scream and neighbor report of Dina on the property was mistaken for party activity. Nina and Adam were also there. I can see how that could seem like a party to outsiders.

I also thought there was a story that reported that Rebecca was looking forward to the party. I wonder if L.E. thoroughly investigated this party angle. There could be some important clues to how Rebecca 'got dead' there.

Also, I don't buy into that Adam found her 'hanging'. His testimony doesn't seem stable to me give that his LDT was inconclusive and he was never retested. I would think he would have gone with the recommendation for retesting if for no other reason than to clear up any doubt cast upon him.

Irresponsible reporting, IMO.
Where was ANY supporting evidence of any "party" taking place?

In the night, when you hear a blood curdling scream, just how many people would then logically conclude a party was taking place? No extra lights, no extra vehicles, no extra foot traffic, no signs of extra dishes in the main residence or in the dishwasher.

It sounds to me as if you have very shoddy reporting in that area. Or a coverup.
Coupled with other info I would surmise a coverup.

Hi Freckles-

This is just an opinion but I think that Nina's testimony would have some credibility if she had agreed to take the suggested LDT. Since she never followed up on that I find it hard to believe anything she would say about what happened on that property the night of the death. You would think she would of taken the test to clear up any suspicion since she seem concerned about that when she gave her media interview.

Honestly, I think a new investigation should follow up on this party angle. Rebecca was not found to have drugs in her system. L.E. never identified any potential POI so none of the other persons who were on the scene that night were tested either. So much potential evidence was lost that could clear this mysterious death up for those who believed L.E. rushed their ruling of suicide.

Wig-o-matic wrote:Hi Freckles-

This is just an opinion but I think that Nina's testimony would have some credibility if she had agreed to take the suggested LDT. Since she never followed up on that I find it hard to believe anything she would say about what happened on that property the night of the death. You would think she would of taken the test to clear up any suspicion since she seem concerned about that when she gave her media interview.

Honestly, I think a new investigation should follow up on this party angle. Rebecca was not found to have drugs in her system. L.E. never identified any potential POI so none of the other persons who were on the scene that night were tested either. So much potential evidence was lost that could clear this mysterious death up for those who believed L.E. rushed their ruling of suicide.

BBN
-- LDT are not always admissible in court. Why waste the money? What is it you would want to ask her anyway? She volunteered a lot of info to the reporter. However, some of her comments could be easily refuted. Other important questions were never asked. Then there were statements in which she crossed herself.

Witnesses did NOT put her at the scene of the crime; she put herself there.
And she did NOT report any party going on at that time--- about 10:30 PM.

--What party angle you talking about? Some unfounded rumor?

Why not spend the money to do a proper investigation based on the facts and not on speculation? Facts. Such as who was accessing the computer AFTER Rebecca was dead? Was it Adam?

Puzzler wrote:I agree - "scream for help" "gag in mouth" = murder.

Simple.

BBM

Tee shirt.

Something that makes me question the idea of a staged suicide as opposed to just plain homicide.

Tamta wrote:

Puzzler wrote:I agree - "scream for help" "gag in mouth" = murder.

Simple.

BBM

Tee shirt.

Something that makes me question the idea of a staged suicide as opposed to just plain homicide.

SDSO speculated Rebecca used this tee shirt to muffle any sounds she might make while leaning over the balcony head first to hang herself. SDSO speculated Rebecca wrapped the arms of this tee shirt around her neck three times and then used the remaining sleeve portion to put in her mouth to silence any sound. All this speculation makes it appear as if Rebecca created a custom fit silencer for her suicide mission. Things that make you go hmmm...

Autopsy report - Neck page 8
http://www.scribd.com/doc/64114521/Reports

Tamta wrote:

Puzzler wrote:I agree - "scream for help" "gag in mouth" = murder.

Simple.

BBM

Tee shirt.

Something that makes me question the idea of a staged suicide as opposed to just plain homicide.

The shirt was wrapped around three times and the ends of the sleeves stuffed in RZ's mouth; however, the reenactment that was done that showed RZ could have done everything that was done in a short amount of time "only" had the shirt wrapped around the neck two times and the part stuffed in her mouth was an area "above" the ends of the rope. Does anyone recall if the "reenactment" was correct wrt the documents released?

Puzzler wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Puzzler wrote:I agree - "scream for help" "gag in mouth" = murder.

Simple.

BBM

Tee shirt.

Something that makes me question the idea of a staged suicide as opposed to just plain homicide.

The shirt was wrapped around three times and the ends of the sleeves stuffed in RZ's mouth; however, the reenactment that was done that showed RZ could have done everything that was done in a short amount of time "only" had the shirt wrapped around the neck two times and the part stuffed in her mouth was an area "above" the ends of the rope. Does anyone recall if the "reenactment" was correct wrt the documents released?

Puzzler - You're correct with the remaining parts of the sleeves being used as the gag. I corrected my post above. It is SDSO's theory.

The difference between 3 times and 2 times is "huge".

As Val showed us and others tried and found out the same, that the 3 times around the neck cuts off a person's air....you would pass out before you had a chance to put yourself over a balcony railing.

I think IF a person was going to gag themselves, they could find an easier, less bulky and awkward way to do it. Duct tape is handy for this purpose, as we all know, and would leave Rebecca free to tie her feet and hands at her leisure. Wrapping a tee shirt around your own neck 3 times and stuffing it into your own mouth is a little hard for me to believe.... aside from the fact that it's hard for me to believe she would gag herself at all anyway. How much noise would she fear making anyway? She would either break her neck or asphyxiate... where's the noise there? But, if she were screaming for help I can see someone gagging her in the manner that she was gagged. I thought I read that the party was cancelled due to Max's accident. Adam would have mentioned a party, had it taken place, imo because he would have known about it. I'm sure he would have loved to talk about the party, and how any number of people could have done something to Rebecca (in the case that he had anything to do with her death.) Nothing points to Rebecca being a sociopath... which she most likely would have to be if she insisted on partying that night. If there was loud music coming from the house, I agree with others, that the purpose was much more sinister than that of having a good time.

Then, also, you have to suppose that Rebecca ran around in the garden to get herself diry... banged her head 3 times against some hard surface... and got the bright idea of stopping to paint a cryptic message in 3d person on a door... threw the white chair down onto the floor with a bed spread (for dramatic effect?) ... and, only then decided to wrap her own neck in her shirt, gag herself by stuffing a sleeve into her own mouth and finishing off with the rope tying and hopping around on tip toes over to the balcony and fling herself off somehow. If she wasn't murdered and this wasn't a tragedy... this invented scenario would almost be funny. I don't know how many knots a person has to tie their mind into to come to this conclusion and find it even remotely believable. It's like taking all logic and turning it inside out to try and fit a situation that's impossible. Try wrapping your own neck with your own shirt 3 times, and when you can't do it while continuing to breath, give Rebecca a break for not being able to do it either. If someone else wraps the shirt 3 times... they obviously don't care if the person can breath or not.

Well stated and totally agree with Hinky's Mimi and all above. For reference sake, here is link to Val's video reenactment:
Val's demonstration of how Rebecca Zahau could not have wrapped her size of t-shirt around her neck 3 times and then tie a double knot without causing unconsciousness.
https://youtu.be/SjDQ9YvSBYQ

And here documentation from the Autopsy report signed by ME Lucas: page 11

There is a light blue or turquoise long sleeve T-shirt also around the neck on top of/outside of the rope. It was fashioned by tying the two ends of the long sleeves together near the cuffs in a double knot. The sleeves are wrapped three times around the neck with the abdominal and lower chest portion of the shirt extending from the anterior aspect of the ligature. The end of this has a small amount of what appears to be dried secretions.

To think Rebecca would do this to herself is beyond the absurd.


So at what point in the evening activities did she decide to (according to a comment elsewhere by the same person IIRC who spilled the beans that the clump of hair was in the shower BEFORE it was made public) put on The Doors "This is the End" and light the candle?
B.S.

Eileen_Dover wrote:Well stated and totally agree with Hinky's Mimi and all above. For reference sake, here is link to Val's video reenactment:
Val's demonstration of how Rebecca Zahau could not have wrapped her size of t-shirt around her neck 3 times and then tie a double knot without causing unconsciousness.
https://youtu.be/SjDQ9YvSBYQ

And here documentation from the Autopsy report signed by ME Lucas: page 11

There is a light blue or turquoise long sleeve T-shirt also around the neck on top of/outside of the rope. It was fashioned by tying the two ends of the long sleeves together near the cuffs in a double knot. The sleeves are wrapped three times around the neck with the abdominal and lower chest portion of the shirt extending from the anterior aspect of the ligature. The end of this has a small amount of what appears to be dried secretions.

To think Rebecca would do this to herself is beyond the absurd.


So at what point in the evening activities did she decide to (according to a comment elsewhere by the same person IIRC who spilled the beans that the clump of hair was in the shower BEFORE it was made public) put on The Doors "This is the End" and light the candle?
B.S.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's ironic. She supposedly killed herself and, since that isn't supported by the evidence, people begin to speculate that she killed herself but decided to make it look like she was murdered. Weird imo. Why would she do that? There is no evidence that she hated Shacknai. A woman wants out of a relationship, she leaves... she doesn't kill herself and make it look like murder. How often has anyone heard of THIS method of breaking up happening? This is the biggest scam I've ever seen. LE calls it suspicious and then changes it to suicide and a whole bunch of people will MAKE it fit one way or another and, when it still doesn't fit... they call it a faked murder-suicide. If we stretch our imaginations just a bit further we could probably come up with something even more unbelievable.
When all along, the thing is... it doesn't even look like a suicide imo, so it's unfortunate that LE threw a curve ball as they did and one that's still in motion. It looked and looks just like a murder because it is a murder, imo, and when you look at it as a murder, everything fits.
**edited to add: This comment is not addressing bloggers here or on any other site. Discussing the controversy this murder has caused in general.

Lash wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Puzzler wrote:I agree - "scream for help" "gag in mouth" = murder.

Simple.

BBM

Tee shirt.

Something that makes me question the idea of a staged suicide as opposed to just plain homicide.

SDSO speculated Rebecca used this tee shirt to muffle any sounds she might make while leaning over the balcony head first to hang herself. SDSO speculated Rebecca wrapped the arms of this tee shirt around her neck several times and then used the remaining sleeve portion to put in her mouth to silence any sound. All this speculation makes it appear as if Rebecca created a custom fit silencer for her suicide mission. Things that make you go hmmm...

There seems an investigatory trend to prioritize the 'apparent' and the 'grey' evidence in assessing the circumstances to determine the hanging as a suicide.

the summation of malleable fact upon malleable fact renders an interpretation outside of the investigations appear as subjective.

It's a very clever MO.
Their insulation is secured, regardless if a new conclusion can be reached.

Wait. IF you were going to hang yourself AND you did not want others to hear you cry out why not hang yourself INSIDE the house?

Makes no sense. Again. Illogical.

Edited: And IF she wanted to point a finger at JS, why not hang herself in the wt room?

She did not stuff the tee in her mouth. No woman with long hair would have arranged such painstaking details and then tied her own hair into the rope. This is written as a very bad plot.

There have been many comments over the months about Rebecca and what her state of mind and actions may or may not have been.

I would love to see a professional assessment of what, if this was a murder, the killer(s) profile would be.

Arsenio Hall won The Apprentice, which makes this next comment relevant: "Things that make you say 'hmmmmmm.'"

GlaringError wrote:There have been many comments over the months about Rebecca and what her state of mind and actions may or may not have been.

I would love to see a professional assessment of what, if this was a murder, the killer(s) profile would be.

Arsenio Hall won The Apprentice, which makes this next comment relevant: "Things that make you say 'hmmmmmm.'"

IMO someone who was into knotty things between the ropes and the porn. Well thought out so it would be a person used to detail and used to having others carry out instructions. Authority type person. Someone who could influence a
proper and well documented investigation. Someone who could delay covering or tenting a body without a concern.

While it was detailed, the perp was sloppy carrying out the details so it had to have involved two persons of two different characteristics. Which is interesting because there WERE two knives not counting the one Adam used to cut Rebecca down. And, there were two sets of gloves, weren't there? Pity these were not printed.

If this is murder, what would you think the profile would be?

(I would like to know why, if JS said to Rebecca on the supposed last call to her that Max was clinically dead, and he could easily leave his son's side for over 5 hours, WHY did he not return to the residence to at least be by the woman he had shared a bed with, shared his life and dreams and trusted her to be the chief care giver in his home of ALL his children? Kind of cold, IMO. He dumped her at a time most men would have been embracing their lover's body and seeing her privacy was ensured. And, JS DID have the authority to have had her body properly covered. He shamed himself more than he shamed her. Further, AS was a guest in the home and yet JS did not over comfort to the man who supposedly found a "dead girl" hanging at the residence. Funny how AS could not say Rebecca's name, you know? )

There were TWO tragedies and yet there are those who want to pretend there was just one tragedy.

I would like to know why the gym suddenly closed its doors?
I would like to know why there was no food residue in Rebecca's stomach while AS and JS both said they had dinner that night.

What say you?

Freckles wrote:

Wig-o-matic wrote:Hi Freckles-

This is just an opinion but I think that Nina's testimony would have some credibility if she had agreed to take the suggested LDT. Since she never followed up on that I find it hard to believe anything she would say about what happened on that property the night of the death. You would think she would of taken the test to clear up any suspicion since she seem concerned about that when she gave her media interview.

Honestly, I think a new investigation should follow up on this party angle. Rebecca was not found to have drugs in her system. L.E. never identified any potential POI so none of the other persons who were on the scene that night were tested either. So much potential evidence was lost that could clear this mysterious death up for those who believed L.E. rushed their ruling of suicide.

BBN
-- LDT are not always admissible in court. Why waste the money? What is it you would want to ask her anyway? She volunteered a lot of info to the reporter. However, some of her comments could be easily refuted. Other important questions were never asked. Then there were statements in which she crossed herself.

Witnesses did NOT put her at the scene of the crime; she put herself there.
And she did NOT report any party going on at that time--- about 10:30 PM.

--What party angle you talking about? Some unfounded rumor?

Why not spend the money to do a proper investigation based on the facts and not on speculation? Facts. Such as who was accessing the computer AFTER Rebecca was dead? Was it Adam?

Hey again Freckles-

Regarding, Nina, though she volunteered a lot of information to the reporter it would have served her better to just take the LTD. The press is not L.E. and did not have access to the information that L.E. had. As far as questions to ask, any seasoned detective worth his or her salt could answer that question.

I also know that a witness reported seeing Dina and not Nina on the property the night of the death. Nina herself admitted to being on the property and stated something to the effect that she wore new yoga pants, carried a pink Coach wristlet, did not touch the gate and saw a light on in the sitting room. Though she probably did prowl the property that night I don't know that I believe a word she said. Is anything known about her? How do you know she's not a fruit loop and why do you believe her version of events?

About the 'party angle', didn't a trainer at the gym report that Rebecca was excited about a party scheduled for that night? I wonder who was on the guest list. Who made the cancellation calls? Did her cell phone or the land line show any of that activity?

If L.E. initially investigated a suspicious death and we have corroborating evidence of Nina, Dina and Adam on the property the night of the planned party then that should have been thoroughly investigated. So much confusion has been generated by L.E.s apparent non investigation that at this juncture a 'proper investigation' is beginning to look like the mirage of an oasis in a desert.

GlaringError wrote:There have been many comments over the months about Rebecca and what her state of mind and actions may or may not have been.

I would love to see a professional assessment of what, if this was a murder, the killer(s) profile would be.

Arsenio Hall won The Apprentice, which makes this next comment relevant: "Things that make you say 'hmmmmmm.'"

Interesting thought GlaringError, TY.
Am in the process of reading this book, but will pull out a few quotes that seem pertinent:
Criminal Profiling: An Introduction to Behavioral Evidence Analysis
By Brent E. Turvey
2008 Elsevier Inc. Academic Press imprint of Elsevier, San Diego
http://books.google.com.br/books?id=Oge7LFaN5xYC&dq=brent+turvey+criminal+profiling&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=1OHES9GgAYSclgeevpiBDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Foreword by Richard Saferstein, Ph.D
Pg ix
Often the power of the personality and individual charisma, along with the old-boy network, has determined whether profiling information will be sought in an investigation, and just who will provide the service.. [Hmmmm…]

Pg xi
From time to time, it is appropriate to ask ourselves why it is that we believe that which we think we know. What is it that we believe or think we know about the physchological engines that drive those who hurt and kill?

Espistemology, the study of how and why it is that we know anything at all, tells us that the motivating themes of all behavior can be categorized in terms of biodynamics, sociodynamics, theodynamics, and psychodynamics. (The story of Cain and Abel would seem to lend support for this assertion.) If people commit crimes in part as the result of their own specific psychodynamics, it is incumbent upon us to make the effort to comprehend something of their motives and reasonings, however dysfunctional or abhorrent they may be. If we apply conventional logic and all the things that we learned at our grandmother's knee (or some other equally respectable joint), a crime may appear totally obscure. Seen through the eyes of the perpetrator, however, it may be entirely sensible. An appreciation of how the perspective of the offender may be factored into the investigation may allow us to proceed more effectively.

There are seven classical motives suggested for acts that we would deem sinister: money, sex, jealousy, fear, anger, hate, and prejudice. Four of these, not without reason, coincide with the seven deadly sins. Most of us have a passing conversancy with money, jealousy, and (conventional) sex, and while it might be presumptuous for us to claim that we have a unqualified grasp of those subjects, we at least find those motives more or less understandable. But thankfully few and hopefully none of us would be justified in claiming to appreciate the nuances of out-of-control hate, fear and anger..

* * * * * * * *
"The nuances of out-of-control hate, fear and anger"… Hmmmmm…

So how was criminal profiling applied in this case?

Gore and his lackeys assumed, "thought", presumed, and speculated on Rebecca's state of mind, concluding she murdered herself due to guilt. (Gore said: "Wouldn't you feel guilty if a child were hurt while under your care?")

To the public's knowledge, they never applied criminal profiling to any of the others who had opportunity, who were either at the crime scene, had access to the crime scene, or had recently been with the victim, all of whom could have/may have felt hate, fear and anger towards the victim. They blatantly ignored this, the most obvious of motives. ("Wouldn't you feel hate, fear and anger towards the person who was allegedly the only adult present at the time your child was fatally injured?"). Add into the equation media reports on the volatile personalities that led to spousal abuse, these factors should have been taken into consideration. By NOT profiling EVERYONE who had opportunity, means and motive, rather than only the victim, classifies this as a hideously bias investigation. IMO

Hinky's Mimi wrote:Then, also, you have to suppose that Rebecca ran around in the garden to get herself diry... banged her head 3 times against some hard surface... and got the bright idea of stopping to paint a cryptic message in 3d person on a door... threw the white chair down onto the floor with a bed spread (for dramatic effect?) ... and, only then decided to wrap her own neck in her shirt, gag herself by stuffing a sleeve into her own mouth and finishing off with the rope tying and hopping around on tip toes over to the balcony and fling herself off somehow. If she wasn't murdered and this wasn't a tragedy... this invented scenario would almost be funny. I don't know how many knots a person has to tie their mind into to come to this conclusion and find it even remotely believable. It's like taking all logic and turning it inside out to try and fit a situation that's impossible. Try wrapping your own neck with your own shirt 3 times, and when you can't do it while continuing to breath, give Rebecca a break for not being able to do it either. If someone else wraps the shirt 3 times... they obviously don't care if the person can breath or not.

Hinky's Mimi - love your posts.

It is like standing logic on it's ear...and twisting the logic in an attempt to sway people's minds doesn't work unless, to begin with, the person reading the "twist" isn't a logical-minded person.

You're right, if it wasn't such a tragedy, it would be funny.

Puzzler wrote:

Hinky's Mimi wrote:Then, also, you have to suppose that Rebecca ran around in the garden to get herself diry... banged her head 3 times against some hard surface... and got the bright idea of stopping to paint a cryptic message in 3d person on a door... threw the white chair down onto the floor with a bed spread (for dramatic effect?) ... and, only then decided to wrap her own neck in her shirt, gag herself by stuffing a sleeve into her own mouth and finishing off with the rope tying and hopping around on tip toes over to the balcony and fling herself off somehow. If she wasn't murdered and this wasn't a tragedy... this invented scenario would almost be funny. I don't know how many knots a person has to tie their mind into to come to this conclusion and find it even remotely believable. It's like taking all logic and turning it inside out to try and fit a situation that's impossible. Try wrapping your own neck with your own shirt 3 times, and when you can't do it while continuing to breath, give Rebecca a break for not being able to do it either. If someone else wraps the shirt 3 times... they obviously don't care if the person can breath or not.

Hinky's Mimi - love your posts.

It is like standing logic on it's ear...and twisting the logic in an attempt to sway people's minds doesn't work unless, to begin with, the person reading the "twist" isn't a logical-minded person.

You're right, if it wasn't such a tragedy, it would be funny.

Couldn't agree more. Thanks for bumping Hinky's Mimi's comment, Puzzler. I had missed it. Hard to expect an illogically-minded person to even recognize a twist (if that makes any sense lol)

Thanks for all the responses and additions!

I found this article very interesting... you have to click through about five short pages to read the entire thing, which i recommend as worth it:

http://www.helium.com/items/1862687-criminal-thinking-and-behaving-characteristics-profiling

GlaringError wrote:Thanks for all the responses and additions!

I found this article very interesting... you have to click through about five short pages to read the entire thing, which i recommend as worth it:

http://www.helium.com/items/1862687-criminal-thinking-and-behaving-characteristics-profiling

TY GlaringError! Amazing article. That article merits a HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...
If you click on the print button, then can read entire article on one page. If anyone doesn't want to click and read, let me know and I can pull up the highlights and post them. Albeit disturbing, it's a must read for any arm-chair crime investigator.

Eileen-
Your 11:53 post is a WOW! That should be placed in a reference library if we get one. Very informative and deeply interesting. Well written.

Thanks for sharing.

Eileen... thank you... I'm a bit of a posting clutz!

You folks are so good at teasing out the intricacies of this issue!!!

I found the psychological and behavioral cues in that article fascinating.... especially having in mind the specifics of Rebecca's death, and the public display that was made of her body and of the (crime) act itself.

I would love to read other chatters thoughts on the profile that is painted of a "criminal thinker" in that article. Notice, it is not necessary that a "criminal thinker" actually carries out a murder or other heinous crime.... but if they did........ HMMMMMMM

GlaringError wrote:Thanks for all the responses and additions!

I found this article very interesting... you have to click through about five short pages to read the entire thing, which i recommend as worth it:

http://www.helium.com/items/1862687-criminal-thinking-and-behaving-characteristics-profiling

Thank You for the article! So disturbing really.

If you oppose him, he can be merciless. He responds excessively to people, sometimes abusively or physically, and actually thinks it is acceptable to do so. When he no longer needs someone, he dumps that person like garbage. He does not understand the impact and implications of his behaviors on others. He is charming, intelligent and talented. People are his prey, particularly the weak and the vulnerable. He wins trust and confidence of people and then exploits them.

Dina would vouch that this statement describes Jonah.

Eileen_Dover wrote:

Both autopsy reports signed by Jonathan R. Lucas, signed off 9-2-11

MS's initialed JRL:SCC:clb [note: who is SCC?]
dictated 7/18/11 transcribed 6/19/11 REVised or REViewed (?) 9/2/11
Neuropathological report signed: 8/23/11
(by Lawrence A Hansen, MD)

RZ's initialed JRL:CN:clb [note: who is CN?]
dictated 7/14/11 transcribed 7/15/11 REVised or REViewed (?) 9/2/11
Toxicology approved and signed: 07/26/2011
(by Iain M. McIntyre, Ph.D, reviewed by Catherine E. Hamm)

...snipped, bolded and colored by me

Well, that's a cute trick. How could MS's autopsy report have been transcribed a month before it was dictated? You'd think they'd review these documents for typos.

The lack of attention to detail in this case is appalling.

By the way, Eileen_Dover, love your posts! Very analytical and informative.

Hinky SD... I agree. She unwittingly pre-vouched.

CuriousPortlander wrote:

Eileen_Dover wrote:

Both autopsy reports signed by Jonathan R. Lucas, signed off 9-2-11

MS's initialed JRL:SCC:clb [note: who is SCC?]
dictated 7/18/11 transcribed 6/19/11 REVised or REViewed (?) 9/2/11
Neuropathological report signed: 8/23/11
(by Lawrence A Hansen, MD)

RZ's initialed JRL:CN:clb [note: who is CN?]
dictated 7/14/11 transcribed 7/15/11 REVised or REViewed (?) 9/2/11
Toxicology approved and signed: 07/26/2011
(by Iain M. McIntyre, Ph.D, reviewed by Catherine E. Hamm)

...snipped, bolded and colored by me

Well, that's a cute trick. How could MS's autopsy report have been transcribed a month before it was dictated? You'd think they'd review these documents for typos.

The lack of attention to detail in this case is appalling.

By the way, Eileen_Dover, love your posts! Very analytical and informative.

Thank you CuriousPortlander!... TYPO ALERT. Apologies. MY MISTAKE! Should read transcribed 7/19/11 (Note to self: proofread before posting)

How many days between these points:
Death --- autopsy---- transcription--- funeral--- autopsy release

Eileen_Dover wrote:
Thank you CuriousPortlander!... TYPO ALERT. Apologies. MY MISTAKE! Should read transcribed 7/19/11 (Note to self: proofread before posting)

Oh, sorry! I just assumed it was ME's mistake (figured you copied and pasted). No harm done!

Freckles wrote:

Freckles... lmao.... That looks like me, at work. But there are two more smiley steps in each rotation of each task. The beginning (the question) ... and then the end(denouement)

I wanted to add: some people would like to have you believe the denouement came on 9/2/11... but due to continued activity... I would have to respectfully disagree.

I want to share a quicky here.... I have a generally good grasp of the English language and so, as I do each morning I was sitting on my patio reflecting with God and I thought, this is not the end of the story and the word denouement popped into my head. So I posted.

I knew the word fit, but I only had a general recollection of the meaning. I like to know exactly, so I looked it up (I promote this in general)... here's the outcome (pun lol) at, the end, and I couldn't have fit it myself: dé·noue·ment~
Origin:
1745–55; < French: literally, an untying, equivalent to dénouer to untie, Old French desnoer ( des- de- + noer to knot < Latin nōdāre, derivative of nōdus knot) + -ment -ment

Hello all!! Been a lurker for awhile and decided to finally join. I follow a few cases here at Reality Chatter. However, Rebecca's case is what I follow the most, I have since July of 2011. I never followed "cases" until the story broke about Rebecca's death. It haunts me to this day. There was a lot of very good information at THM and I was very sad to see it go. I sure hope Val decides at some point to make available ALL the work that was done regarding this horrible event. LOTS of great information that explained in painstaking detail as to WHY this could not have been a suicide. From day one, I have never believed that this young woman did this to herself. The EVIDENCE speaks for itself, IMO. I like to think I have an open mind. That is why I have read anything and everything that I can involving this case, yes, from both sides. People are entitled to their opinions. But as others here at Reality Chatter have pointed out on numerous occasions, if one looks at ALL the evidence, personally, I don't see how anyone could NOT question the ruling that came down on 9-2-11. Anyhow, I look forward to the discussions regarding this case. Here we are coming up on the one year anniversary of what I believe was a cold blooded murder of a young woman...and MANY questions STILL remain.

HinkySD wrote:I wonder if Nina Romano would question the suicide ruling if it was her sister DINA Shacknai that was found naked, bruised, tied up, gagged, and dead.

VERY good point, HinkySD!! You and I both know that NR would NOT accept the same conclusions that Gore and his bunch came to if it happened to be NR's sister being found in that way.

Twinkie wrote:Hello all!! Been a lurker for awhile and decided to finally join. I follow a few cases here at Reality Chatter. However, Rebecca's case is what I follow the most, I have since July of 2011. I never followed "cases" until the story broke about Rebecca's death. It haunts me to this day. There was a lot of very good information at THM and I was very sad to see it go. I sure hope Val decides at some point to make available ALL the work that was done regarding this horrible event. LOTS of great information that explained in painstaking detail as to WHY this could not have been a suicide. From day one, I have never believed that this young woman did this to herself. The EVIDENCE speaks for itself, IMO. I like to think I have an open mind. That is why I have read anything and everything that I can involving this case, yes, from both sides. People are entitled to their opinions. But as others here at Reality Chatter have pointed out on numerous occasions, if one looks at ALL the evidence, personally, I don't see how anyone could NOT question the ruling that came down on 9-2-11. Anyhow, I look forward to the discussions regarding this case. Here we are coming up on the one year anniversary of what I believe was a cold blooded murder of a young woman...and MANY questions STILL remain.

Hello Twinkie-

I am also new to RC but I would like to warmly welcome you.

I enjoy reading the different spins on this perplexing death. I continue to hope and pray that the AG does the right thing and decides to open an investigation here. I wish the Zahaus and Shacknai family all the best and hope the truth will be revealed soon so both families can move on with their lives.

Do you think LE would ignore a murder to cover up for anyone other than someone really powerful?

Do you think if someone of power and influence discovered that their fiancé was killed in that manner, that LE would ignore the evidence like this if the person of power and influence actually made some noise?

I just can't wrap my mind around these questions.

Hi Twinkie -

I was thinking this very same thing this morning. Good God, the wait!

Quoting Twinkie: 'Here we are coming up on the one year anniversary of what I believe was a cold blooded murder of a young woman...and MANY questions STILL remain..'

I was kind of fantasizing this morning that AG/LE will return the favor of playing games and announce Shackmano arrests on July 12!! the one year anniversary of Rebecca's death.

It has NEVER stopped bothering me that the family and their attorney had to wait weeks and weeks for SDSO to turn the 'investigative' files over to them. (Even though from the beginning they were clear that they wanted both the files and a REAL investigation.) SDLE kept saying '.. in a couple of weeks..' they will get the files.

Even though Gore wrote the letter acoompanying the files on October 27,
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/gore_letter.pdf,

The files were not delivered to Anne Bremner until OCTOBER 31ST!!!!!!!!!

Now if that isn't cute, I don't know what is!!! After waiting all that time they get a 'Halloween Delivery!' And remember the files came with an unprecedented threat!

Here's Bremner announcing receipt of the files...


So after delivering the files on Halloween (PIGS!!!!!) they also without shame threaten the victim's family.

"I believe there's an implied threat in the letter that they would release information hurtful to the victim and her family," said Rudoy. "It has chilled our willingness to release relevant information to the media that would help the public determine what happened in this case." http://www.760kfmb.com/story/16194812/2011/12/05/sheriff-warns-zahau-attorney-case-file-may-be-opened

This case is maddening!!

(Oh, Happy Saturday! :> )

Welcome Twinkie.
It is always good to have a new poster on board.

playmuni wrote:Do you think LE would ignore a murder to cover up for anyone other than someone really powerful?

Do you think if someone of power and influence discovered that their fiancé was killed in that manner, that LE would ignore the evidence like this if the person of power and influence actually made some noise?

I just can't wrap my mind around these questions.

I think it could depend upon two offerings: money and or politics.
And, IMO, they could be the same.