Isabel Celis -- Missing 4/20/12

Chickenbutt wrote:I guess that was my point Calypso. We truly don't know much of anything for fact. I love the fact that we call all opine here and try to figure where the case is going with so little evidence. Everyones has a different take on something, but we seem to agree on certain things. I like reading and evaluating others opinions.

ETA: and we are all civil...right Tamta?

Hissssssss.

Cat claw icon???

Honeysage wrote:

Calypso wrote:

Stolat wrote:

Tamta wrote:@ Stolat

Sergio also changed his tune about the window being the sure point of entry.

He just wasn't sure anymore .

You know what I mean?

Of course he has. Because he's made two very inconsistent statements. And in order for someone to have come in through the window -- he's now made it impossible for them to have come in prior to 5AM. So if the window was the entry point, he's given them very little time to enter because very likely he knows no one would enter the house while his wife was up getting ready for work which is supposedly around 6am since she was reportedly either just leaving for or just arriving at work at 7am. So ONE HOUR?? are you freaking kidding me?? And so he's realized that as well and has changed his tune about the window theory.

Right, because in his statement about waking up at 5am, and the window being closed, he placed himself in that room/doorway at 5am.

he didn't say he saw the window closed at 5am, just that it was closed the last time he saw Isabel and per his interview with local media the last time he saw her she was "just walking by"...i really want to know if anyone put her into bed, closed her light, told her good-night, closed her door or not and physically checked the window (which are all the things i do when my kids go to bed).

Ok Honeysage - I now see what you are referring to. I didn't read the article but rather went off the interpretation of another commenter (bad me!)

"Sergio tells police he fell asleep on the couch in the family room until 5 a.m. That's when he woke up to join Rebecca in bed the morning Isabel disappeared. He tells police the window was closed the last time he saw Isabel. "

-he fell asleep on the couch in the family room until 5 a.m.
-he woke up to join Rebecca in bed ("That's when...") meaning he joined Rebecca at 5am
-Rebecca is "in bed" so therefore, not awake and getting ready for work
-the window was closed the last time he saw Isabel. ---- no specific time or inference there.

So for example, if the last time he saw Isa was 11pm at night -then 11pm is when he saw the window closed. and so on and so on...

Okay - so now I have to revise my theory.

I still maintain and stand by my argument that originally (before this whole 5am detail was revealed) that Sergio made it clear he was sleeping next to Isa just on the other side of the wall and he never heard anything - relative to the time she was taken. He never once says he was in his bedroom and he never heard anything. But we still do not know what time he claims he saw the window last closed, nor do we know what time he last saw Isa.

Me??? Be catty???? Never!

Stolat, I remember in the TV interview that Becky and Sergio did, he specifically said that he was sleeping right on the ohterside of the wall. He never made mention of leaving the den and going to bed with Becky.

Calypso wrote:Going out the window makes sense since that would keep the risk of being seen by anyone in the household to a minimum, rather than carrying Isabel out the front door.

But geez, can you imagine trying to carry a 6 yr old out through a window that is not on ground level and you have to step on a meter box in order to reach up to it? Getting in or out at that height off the ground would *surely* require both hands and some nimble footwork. I cannot even fathom trying to do it where you have to have at least one arm around a 6 yr old kid.

Stolat wrote:

Honeysage wrote:

Calypso wrote:

Stolat wrote:

Tamta wrote:@ Stolat

Sergio also changed his tune about the window being the sure point of entry.

He just wasn't sure anymore .

You know what I mean?

Of course he has. Because he's made two very inconsistent statements. And in order for someone to have come in through the window -- he's now made it impossible for them to have come in prior to 5AM. So if the window was the entry point, he's given them very little time to enter because very likely he knows no one would enter the house while his wife was up getting ready for work which is supposedly around 6am since she was reportedly either just leaving for or just arriving at work at 7am. So ONE HOUR?? are you freaking kidding me?? And so he's realized that as well and has changed his tune about the window theory.

Right, because in his statement about waking up at 5am, and the window being closed, he placed himself in that room/doorway at 5am.

he didn't say he saw the window closed at 5am, just that it was closed the last time he saw Isabel and per his interview with local media the last time he saw her she was "just walking by"...i really want to know if anyone put her into bed, closed her light, told her good-night, closed her door or not and physically checked the window (which are all the things i do when my kids go to bed).

Ok Honeysage - I now see what you are referring to. I didn't read the article but rather went off the interpretation of another commenter (bad me!)

"Sergio tells police he fell asleep on the couch in the family room until 5 a.m. That's when he woke up to join Rebecca in bed the morning Isabel disappeared. He tells police the window was closed the last time he saw Isabel. "

-he fell asleep on the couch in the family room until 5 a.m.
-he woke up to join Rebecca in bed ("That's when...") meaning he joined Rebecca at 5am
-Rebecca is "in bed" so therefore, not awake and getting ready for work
-the window was closed the last time he saw Isabel. ---- no specific time or inference there.

So for example, if the last time he saw Isa was 11pm at night -then 11pm is when he saw the window closed. and so on and so on...

Okay - so now I have to revise my theory.

I still maintain and stand by my argument that originally (before this whole 5am detail was revealed) that Sergio made it clear he was sleeping next to Isa just on the other side of the wall and he never heard anything - relative to the time she was taken. He never once says he was in his bedroom and he never heard anything. But we still do not know what time he claims he saw the window last closed, nor do we know what time he last saw Isa.

and he told the 911 operator that he did not hear anything "weird"-again leaving himself a loophole. if the dogs alerted in the middle of the night that may not be a "weird" noise in that household. let's see if he repeats those words to investigators-either he heard something or nothing. Becky said to 911 she heard nothing.

Chickenbutt wrote:Stolat, I remember in the TV interview that Becky and Sergio did, he specifically said that he was sleeping right on the ohterside of the wall. He never made mention of leaving the den and going to bed with Becky.

Stolat and C-Butt I agree.

In the FEW media appearances that these parents have made, they have avoided like the plague speaking about

-who put Isa to bed (who saw her last)
-daybreak to 911 call timeline

Initially I thought LE told them not to talk about it perhaps.
However with this release of Sergio changing sleeping venues at 5 am(fairly close to dawn: 547am that day in Tuscon right ?) it puts the silence on the timelines in a different light.

Like its a decision to avoid incongruencies.

Stolat wrote:

Calypso wrote:Going out the window makes sense since that would keep the risk of being seen by anyone in the household to a minimum, rather than carrying Isabel out the front door.

But geez, can you imagine trying to carry a 6 yr old out through a window that is not on ground level and you have to step on a meter box in order to reach up to it? Getting in or out at that height off the ground would *surely* require both hands and some nimble footwork. I cannot even fathom trying to do it where you have to have at least one arm around a 6 yr old kid.

Isabel's window is big but low to the ground.

I do not recall the electric box under her window.
I don't think it wOuld have been installed there.

Maybe they would have had to step on something inside to get out with her if the perp was alone, but I think that one could step over window sash onto the ground.

Tamta wrote:

Chickenbutt wrote:Stolat, I remember in the TV interview that Becky and Sergio did, he specifically said that he was sleeping right on the ohterside of the wall. He never made mention of leaving the den and going to bed with Becky.

Stolat and C-Butt I agree.

In the FEW media appearances that these parents have made, they have avoided like the plague speaking about

-who put Isa to bed (who saw her last)
-daybreak to 911 call timeline

Initially I thought LE told them not to talk about it perhaps.
However with this release of Sergio changing sleeping venues at 5 am(fairly close to dawn: 547am that day in Tuscon right ?) it puts the silence on the timelines in a different light.

Like its a decision to avoid incongruencies.

Yes, It seems clear the cops have no issues releasing these details - as is evident with the 550+ pages released. So it would appear it is the *parents* not the police who refuse to provide those answers.

BINGO - maybe that is the point of the mysterious release of the docs pre-arrest

Perhaps they are flushing the parents out.... they (LE) are basically saying WE are not the ones preventing you from answering the questions of who last saw Isa, who put her to bed, what are the details of that morning, and DID YOU PASS THE POLY?

Stolat wrote:

Calypso wrote:Going out the window makes sense since that would keep the risk of being seen by anyone in the household to a minimum, rather than carrying Isabel out the front door.

But geez, can you imagine trying to carry a 6 yr old out through a window that is not on ground level and you have to step on a meter box in order to reach up to it? Getting in or out at that height off the ground would *surely* require both hands and some nimble footwork. I cannot even fathom trying to do it where you have to have at least one arm around a 6 yr old kid.

Where theres a will, there's a way, right?

Perhaps there was help? Remember the neighbor? Heard male voices- indicating more than one~

Tamta wrote:

Stolat wrote:

Calypso wrote:Going out the window makes sense since that would keep the risk of being seen by anyone in the household to a minimum, rather than carrying Isabel out the front door.

But geez, can you imagine trying to carry a 6 yr old out through a window that is not on ground level and you have to step on a meter box in order to reach up to it? Getting in or out at that height off the ground would *surely* require both hands and some nimble footwork. I cannot even fathom trying to do it where you have to have at least one arm around a 6 yr old kid.

Isabel's window is big but low to the ground.

I do not recall the electric box under her window.
I don't think it wOuld have been installed there.

Maybe they would have had to step on something inside to get out with her if the perp was alone, but I think that one could step over window sash onto the ground.

IIRC, wasn't there a green box on the neighbor's side of the wall?

Calypso wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Stolat wrote:

Calypso wrote:Going out the window makes sense since that would keep the risk of being seen by anyone in the household to a minimum, rather than carrying Isabel out the front door.

But geez, can you imagine trying to carry a 6 yr old out through a window that is not on ground level and you have to step on a meter box in order to reach up to it? Getting in or out at that height off the ground would *surely* require both hands and some nimble footwork. I cannot even fathom trying to do it where you have to have at least one arm around a 6 yr old kid.

Isabel's window is big but low to the ground.

I do not recall the electric box under her window.
I don't think it wOuld have been installed there.

Maybe they would have had to step on something inside to get out with her i f the perp was alone, but I think that one could step over window sash onto the ground.

IIRC, wasn't there a green box on the neighbor's side of the wall?

I'm sure and it may be close to but not under her window.

Her window is quite tall.
It may have been that someone stood up on something to help remove the screen.

However with that style of a window I would think that the window panel would have had to have been removed to get make access through a locked window.

Who said the window was locked?

Can someone post a pic of Isabel's window and the wall from the neighbors side?

TIA!!

Need a link library.
Haven't look at them but many links on page 12 and before.

Calypso wrote:Who said the window was locked?

I thought that it was stated early on but I may be wrong!!!

Yikes.

Tamta wrote:

color77 wrote:So wait a minute here. The docs released say we've got footprints on top of the electrical box, footprints on the south side of the residence, blood in the bedroom, blood in the car, stained shower curtains and were supposed to believe no one in this house heard anything at all? They all went to bed at 11, except Sergio claimed he was up watching the game, right next to Isa's bedroom where she was sleeping? Were supposed to believe some stranger was just all over this house, then in the car all undetected with 3 dogs in the home to boot? Sorry, IMO now something really stinks in suburbia, more then ever. I was really hoping in my own defensive skewed but safe oppinion that the kid was placed in hiding intentionally and thats why the parents werent acting how we wanted them to. I felt that may have been the most reasonable angle, and why random statements like, "we thought she would be home now, and it wouldnt take this long"(BC- at candle vigil) and the lack of urgency surrounding her disaperance would be very explainable if we believed she was hidden intentionaly. I know there is no evidence to support feeling like that way, just listening over and over to her parents talk, and the way I have percieved thier actions, but now I dont know what the heck to believe. Based on the info released in those docs I defitnaly now think something way more sinister has taken place, cant wait to see what the rest reveals!

Still wanting to know more about:

- whether or not anyone else was in the house the night prior or early that morning.

-Who put Isabel to bed?

Me too, guess we keep waiting Tamata! In the meantime I do find the details released disturbing, and find it further fetched now more then ever we are supposed to believe this all went down & no one heard a thing. My other question too is how much blood...usually blood = some sort of pain, Isabel didnt make a noise either if someone was hurting her...it just doesnt add up!

color77 wrote:

Tamta wrote:

color77 wrote:So wait a minute here. The docs released say we've got footprints on top of the electrical box, footprints on the south side of the residence, blood in the bedroom, blood in the car, stained shower curtains and were supposed to believe no one in this house heard anything at all? They all went to bed at 11, except Sergio claimed he was up watching the game, right next to Isa's bedroom where she was sleeping? Were supposed to believe some stranger was just all over this house, then in the car all undetected with 3 dogs in the home to boot? Sorry, IMO now something really stinks in suburbia, more then ever. I was really hoping in my own defensive skewed but safe oppinion that the kid was placed in hiding intentionally and thats why the parents werent acting how we wanted them to. I felt that may have been the most reasonable angle, and why random statements like, "we thought she would be home now, and it wouldnt take this long"(BC- at candle vigil) and the lack of urgency surrounding her disaperance would be very explainable if we believed she was hidden intentionaly. I know there is no evidence to support feeling like that way, just listening over and over to her parents talk, and the way I have percieved thier actions, but now I dont know what the heck to believe. Based on the info released in those docs I defitnaly now think something way more sinister has taken place, cant wait to see what the rest reveals!

Still wanting to know more about:

- whether or not anyone else was in the house the night prior or early that morning.

-Who put Isabel to bed?

Me too, guess we keep waiting Tamata! In the meantime I do find the details released disturbing, and find it further fetched now more then ever we are supposed to believe this all went down & no one heard a thing. My other question too is how much blood...usually blood = some sort of pain, Isabel didnt make a noise either if someone was hurting her...it just doesnt add up!

BBM

What happened to this child?!

Stolat wrote:

Calypso wrote:Going out the window makes sense since that would keep the risk of being seen by anyone in the household to a minimum, rather than carrying Isabel out the front door.

But geez, can you imagine trying to carry a 6 yr old out through a window that is not on ground level and you have to step on a meter box in order to reach up to it? Getting in or out at that height off the ground would *surely* require both hands and some nimble footwork. I cannot even fathom trying to do it where you have to have at least one arm around a 6 yr old kid.

A six year old bleeding child and I wonder if they found her blood on window, box or ground outside of house.

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/18621086/550-pages-released-in-celis-case
Complete Celis documents

PDF links available-they keep adding them...unfortunately they have been scanned sideways so they are hard to read.

i edited my post because my computer is not behaving

Calypso wrote:Can someone post a pic of Isabel's window and the wall from the neighbors side?

TIA!!

I grabbed these screen caps from a NG video.

This is the neighbor on her side of the wall pointing to Isa's window. You can't see the window until you get right up to the wall because it is low.


Now we are at the wall looking over into the Celis yard:


These 2 pics are standing at the wall looking toward the back of the house and a view toward the front of the house.


Heres the link to the video: http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/04/26/missing-girls-neighbor-shows-nancy-home-isabel-celis

Isabel's window is very low to the ground. Easy to get her and an adult out of that window.

There is a "gate" at the far end of the property they could have gone out of...no need to go over the "wall" - at the end of the wall, going down the other side is a wooden section with a gate in it.

jacct, thanks for getting the photos.

jmo, I think if Isabella was taken through the window, it was at a minimum a 2 person job. Isabella, weighing 45 pds. isn't light, she isn't small like Baby Lisa or Alya, she would be heavy to pick up from her sleep, walk to the window.

Someone could hand her through the window to another person, then follow Isabella out, but imo, it would be too difficult for someone to do it alone, he & Isabella couldn't go through the window together, he could possibly reach through the window & put Isabella on the ground but surely she would wake up & noise would be made.

It is possible too that someone that knows the family could have unlocked the window during a visit. I don't check my windows everynight because I know they are locked, it could be the family didn't check Isa's window because they too just assumed it was locked.

just trying to make sense out of this case, it's frustrating.

I can't figure how to rotate documents on the above web page.

I really would like to know if there is blood on the window or out side her window, you would think so if you have a bleeding child.

snowbird wrote:I can't figure how to rotate documents on the above web page.

I really would like to know if there is blood on the window or out side her window, you would think so if you have a bleeding child.

If you watch the video they do several closeups of the window and you can see the police tape on the bottom of the window. There is no blood or marks on the wall or frame that I could see.

jacct wrote:

snowbird wrote:I can't figure how to rotate documents on the above web page.

I really would like to know if there is blood on the window or out side her window, you would think so if you have a bleeding child.

If you watch the video they do several closeups of the window and you can see the police tape on the bottom of the window. There is no blood or marks on the wall or frame that I could see.

Thanks, then to me it would seem it would be hard to bring a bleeding child out that way. Blood was located in different places. I guess that is why police said very early they did not believe that the window was involved. I think the window was used as a set up.

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/link/563522/pdf-celis-1-blood-on-seat-testimony-from-neighbor

let me quickly throw out some things from reading 1st PDF file:( need to figure out how to screen cap since i have to open PDF in separate window to view it properly)


-the stained hat/shower curtain were taken from hatchback of red 1988 Acura that was parked on side of house
-Luminol reaction was on driver's seat of 2003 blue Toyota Corolla which was in garage
-maroon Lexus in garage searched
- also a gray 2008 Chevy Silverado pickup searched: found knife, instant coffee, beer can in plastic bag, black gloves, towel (Luminol reaction on towel but was not blood), paper towel
-Becky stated to officers outside the home she left for work at 7:30 (GGRRR!!)
-also said her son had _____(it was crossed out), not sure which son but must be some issue causing officer to ask if he would harm Isa
-also while outside officer was told that the male is an uncle of (blank) and that the female was his wife
-FINALLY! we have Sergio stating that once (blank) was in bed, he went into her room and kissed her goodnight and then dimmed the light. this is when he says window was closed.
-Sergio said boys were in their room playing video games and he was on couch with prerecorded game
-went to bed at 5am, Becky woke to ask if he had just gotten to bed and she left for work at 7:30
-Sergio said female neighbor heard male voices at 6am
-said he knew sox offender down the street and did not think he took Isabel (creepy-covering for RSO)
-said dogs did not bark and they would for strangers
-Sergio did not borrow money from 401k, does not administer anesthesia at work but does prepare them

most of document is about tips and searches that were done, evidence they picked up (important or not), neighbors they talked to, etc...

http://blog.livenewschat.tv/the-nancy-grace-room/

JVM discussing Isabel Celis case

snowbird wrote:I can't figure how to rotate documents on the above web page.

I really would like to know if there is blood on the window or out side her window, you would think so if you have a bleeding child.

are you talking about rotating the PDF links? if so i had trouble also. i had to right-click on the file then click on Open PDF File in New Window to view them properly-i don't usually have to take that extra step but it worked.

They opened up right side up for me...didn't have to turn them at all.
Interesting calls from psychics all over the country, and a few wacko's..."I talk to ghosts, don't see them, just talk to them"...lol
I can now see why the costs are so high, lots of LE, lots of resources, probably lots of OT

Stolat wrote:I think that is a transcriber typo -- I see that often with the NG Transcripts. I think the word should be (the one most commonly associated with the Luminol process is "resin" or "residue"

Thanks, Stolat. I'm still confused, but this helps! :)

2nd PDF packet

-took photos of Blackberry cell phone belonging to Robert Snyder Rodriguez (texts, phone logs,contacts)
-searched grandparents home inside and out (said he did not know Isa was missing)
-according to LE on scene: screen was crunched in and was to the side of the window on floor outside
-8 family members/friends that Celis contacted by phone to help (Justin not one of them)


http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/link/563528/pdf-celis-2-forensics-collected-items-taken-from-home

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/link/563529/pdf-celis-3-details-on-air-search-boot-prints-found-at-home
3rd PDF

-dog alert directly to south of incident location
-footprint on green electrical box
-3 matching print 5 feet south of the box
-K9 officers found(blank) in an alley east of S Essex and south E 14th
-no footprint in backyard
-discussion with neighbor Alicia Stardavant
-Matthew Shelor: Isa's LL coach, saw her at Freedom ark night before said Sergio called him that morning to say Isa would not be at game because she was missing

Honeysage wrote:http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kold/web/Packet2.pdf?referrerDomain=www.TucsonNewsNow.com
2nd PDF packet

-took photos of Blackberry cell phone belonging to Robert Snyder Rodriguez (texts, phone logs,contacts)
-searched grandparents home inside and out (said he did not know Isa was missing)
-according to LE on scene: screen was crunched in and was to the side of the window on floor outside
-8 family members/friends that Celis contacted by phone to help (Justin not one of them)

So, if he wasn't contacted, then how did he know to show up at the Celis home at 8:00am to look for Isabel?

~Remember, it was "just the immediate family" who was there that night~

PDF 4

-towed truck belonging to Hector R. Rodriguez and Robert Snyder Rodriguez based on search warrant, crime scene tech used and truck released to owners(some info blacked out)
-woman approached LE about FB message she had( Judith Nancy Sallard )re: being school friends with? was in reference to a female (mostly blacked out)

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/link/563532/pdf-celis-4-found-pillow-possible-sightings

Honeysage wrote:

snowbird wrote:I can't figure how to rotate documents on the above web page.

I really would like to know if there is blood on the window or out side her window, you would think so if you have a bleeding child.

are you talking about rotating the PDF links? if so i had trouble also. i had to right-click on the file then click on Open PDF File in New Window to view them properly-i don't usually have to take that extra step but it worked.

Thanks, I will try to do that.