George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

Alessandra - shared:

Chris Serino said that Tracy Martin was emotionally shaken when he played for him the 911 call that recorded the voice of someone screaming.

Alessandra, and you see this as a reason that Tracy didn't recognize the voice as Trayvon's? Ask many that have been in this situation, being upset or physically shaken doesn't prevent you from recognizing the voice of your child imo. If anything, imo, it would have caused Tracy to claim it was Trayvon because he was deceased and clinging to any hope Trayvon called for help, but that didn't happen.

imo, Tracy changed his story after Crump TOLD him how damaging it was to the theory they were promoting if the voice wasn't Trayvon. The physical evidence and the witnesses, imo, are going to determine this fact.

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Chris Serino said that Tracy Martin was emotionally shaken when he played for him the 911 call that recorded the voice of someone screaming.

Any parent would be.

But Tracy Martin also does this:

Tracy expresses to Serino that he sees that Serino was running an investigation that would do its best to get to the truth of the incident, in front of other witnesses Tracy denies the screams are Trayvons, and by Serino's accounts, Tracy understood what the investigation was concluding.

By 5 March, when Tracy is asked about the phone pin, we see Tracy say at the Presser that Nat Jackson held that Tracy would not help law enforcement and that Tracy then believed the shooting had racial motivations.

Tamta - after reading hundreds of Trayvon's tweet's last night, I thought I would scream if I read the word "nigga" one more time. After reading hundreds, I just stopped, I get it. imo, Tracy/Sabrina/Crump all know that the pictures/correspondence on the cell phone are not going to support any image of Trayvon they have told the Media.

Does it matter? I didn't think so at first but I do now, with the Crump team making racial accusations and stating blatant lies to the public in some cases during their Media Blitz, it does matter. What is Tracy afraid of? imo, most of us know exactly what that phone is going to show and exactly what it is not going to show or Tracy would have gladly turned the pin # over...........MOM is right, it's all matters at this point, imo.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:Freckles, the problem with Zimmerman's claim that he was the one screaming for help on the night of the shooting, is that he told the police that Trayvon was covering his mouth and his nose with both hands.........“He put his hand on my nose and on my mouth and he says, 'You're going to die"........."He took one hand off my mouth, and slid it down my chest. I took my gun aimed it at him and fired."

In no way does Zimmerman claiming that Trayvon had his hand on his mouth at one point in the struggle, saying to Zimmerman 'you are going to die', Zimmerman screaming for help, and Trayvon making a move that appeared to Zimmerman to be noticing his gun or reaching towards it that puts Zimmerman in justifiable fear of his life, presents a problem.

These are not a cluster of events occurring with in a period of time that contradict one another or witness accounts.

On the NEN call, Zimmerman asks for an officer to be sent right away.
That is a request for help.

Witness 1 and 6 confirm each other's testimony. We see Zimmerman acknowledging those people, Trayvon is on top, Trayvon does not get off and stop beating Zimmerman even when told that the police are going to be called, and not one single witness says that Trayvon yells out that Zimmerman has a gun and that he, Trayvon, needs help. Zimmerman asks for help according to witness testimony.

If you are pinned underneath another person one possible means of defending yourself is using your arm from the elbow down to grab the other persons hands, wrists, or put your hands against your face.

Zimmerman's DNA was found on Trayvon's hooded sweatshirt.
Unidentified foreign DNA on left cuff and sleeve.

Snipped.
Zimmerman's DNA was found in a stain on Trayvon's shirt. Scientists found on that same piece of clothing a Zimmerman-Trayvon mix of DNA, they reported.

Since Zimmerman was able to get his gun eventually, it stands to reason that he was able to remove Trayvon's hands from his mouth too.

It is erroneous and misleading, given witness testimony, to argue or assert or opine, as if Trayvon was covering Zimmerman's mouth the whole time.

No one, not even Zimmerman, ever said that was what was happening.

Zimmerman asks for help twice, thus far Trayvon is not witnessed to ask for help at all.


--------
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-09-19/news/os-george-zimmerman-evidence-new-20120919_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-cell-phone-records

art tart wrote:

Alessandra - shared:

Chris Serino said that Tracy Martin was emotionally shaken when he played for him the 911 call that recorded the voice of someone screaming.

Alessandra, and you see this as a reason that Tracy didn't recognize the voice as Trayvon's? Ask many that have been in this situation, being upset or physically shaken doesn't prevent you from recognizing the voice of your child imo. If anything, imo, it would have caused Tracy to claim it was Trayvon because he was deceased and clinging to any hope Trayvon called for help, but that didn't happen.

imo, Tracy changed his story after Crump TOLD him how damaging it was to the theory they were promoting if the voice wasn't Trayvon. The physical evidence and the witnesses, imo, are going to determine this fact.

Complaints or concerns about the integrity of the investigation or investigators was not an initial concern of Tracy Martin or the Martin family.

Those complaints were launched later after Crump was hired.

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Chris Serino said that Tracy Martin was emotionally shaken when he played for him the 911 call that recorded the voice of someone screaming.

Any parent would be.

But Tracy Martin also does this:

Tracy expresses to Serino that he sees that Serino was running an investigation that would do its best to get to the truth of the incident, in front of other witnesses Tracy denies the screams are Trayvons, and by Serino's accounts, Tracy understood what the investigation was concluding.

By 5 March, when Tracy is asked about the phone pin, we see Tracy say at the Presser that Nat Jackson held that Tracy would not help law enforcement and that Tracy then believed the shooting had racial motivations.

"In a meeting at the Sanford police station on the morning of Feb. 28, police officers played all the 911 calls for Tracy Martin “in order to provide a better understanding to Mr. Martin as to why the individual who shot his son was not arrested and charged with homicide.”

(I believe they didn't play for him Zimmerman's 911 call.)

“Mr. Martin, clearly emotionally impacted by the recording, quietly responded ‘No,’ ” the report reads, though it adds that this exchange was not itself audio recorded.

"The documents also stated that after a detailed account of the investigation drawn up on March 13, which included witness interviews and re-interviews, Investigator Christopher F. Serino concluded that “there exists probable cause” to charge Mr. Zimmerman with manslaughter."

Source: The New York Times.


ETA: Crump filed a lawsuit on behalf of Trayvon's parents against Chief Lee demanding Zimmerman's 911 call to be released.

art tart wrote:

Alessandra - shared:

Chris Serino said that Tracy Martin was emotionally shaken when he played for him the 911 call that recorded the voice of someone screaming.

Alessandra, and you see this as a reason that Tracy didn't recognize the voice as Trayvon's? Ask many that have been in this situation, being upset or physically shaken doesn't prevent you from recognizing the voice of your child imo. If anything, imo, it would have caused Tracy to claim it was Trayvon because he was deceased and clinging to any hope Trayvon called for help, but that didn't happen.

imo, Tracy changed his story after Crump TOLD him how damaging it was to the theory they were promoting if the voice wasn't Trayvon. The physical evidence and the witnesses, imo, are going to determine this fact.

Did he ever heard his son before screaming for his life?

Tracy was there to follow the protocol to retrieve his son's body from the morgue. How do you know what his state of mind was at that moment.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Any parent would be.

But Tracy Martin also does this:

Tracy expresses to Serino that he sees that Serino was running an investigation that would do its best to get to the truth of the incident, in front of other witnesses Tracy denies the screams are Trayvons, and by Serino's accounts, Tracy understood what the investigation was concluding.

By 5 March, when Tracy is asked about the phone pin, we see Tracy say at the Presser that Nat Jackson held that Tracy would not help law enforcement and that Tracy then believed the shooting had racial motivations.

"In a meeting at the Sanford police station on the morning of Feb. 28, police officers played all the 911 calls for Tracy Martin “in order to provide a better understanding to Mr. Martin as to why the individual who shot his son was not arrested and charged with homicide.”

(I believe they didn't play for him Zimmerman's 911 call.)

“Mr. Martin, clearly emotionally impacted by the recording, quietly responded ‘No,’ ” the report reads, though it adds that this exchange was not itself audio recorded.

"The documents also stated that after a detailed account of the investigation drawn up on March 13, which included witness interviews and re-interviews, Investigator Christopher F. Serino concluded that “there exists probable cause” to charge Mr. Zimmerman with manslaughter."

Source: The New York Times.

The evolution of Tracy Martin mistakenly saying that those were not Trayvon's screams are the words of Crump. In fact Crump says anyone who says differently is a liar. Full stop, that is a fact, but will remain an un-winnable micro-argument for pro-State and presumption of innocence individuals until we hear more about the additional witnesses to that event.

"The documents also stated that after a detailed account of the investigation drawn up on March 13, which included witness interviews and re-interviews, Investigator Christopher F. Serino concluded that “there exists probable cause” to charge Mr. Zimmerman with manslaughter."

Source: The New York Times

This as any document related to requesting a capias, serving as a finding for that particular capias request, or it being an official conclusion about the investigation seeing probable cause at that time, is disputed as it is not proven to exist. References to it attached to a date or investigator do not give it any validity.

Serino's initial incident report written that night is not a capias request or supporting affidavit for one.

2 April
Orlando Sentinel

Police did that night prepare an incident report that lists "manslaughter" as the possible crime being investigated, but in every case in which an officer prepares an incident report, he or she fills in that spot with some crime and statute number to allow the agency to properly report crime statistics to the FBI.

Right now it is a story, and nothing more. The appropriate thing to do would be to refer to it as alleged for now. The media and Corey-and Crump, have succeeded in confusing ex-post facto these with Corey's capias and affidavit and the public bought it. There were never 2 requests for arrest nor were there two affidavits supporting those requests.

Lets just keep things straight.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/news/os-trayvon-martin-federal-review-justice-letter-20120402_1_chief-bill-lee-federal-review-federal-agency

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

art tart wrote:

Alessandra, and you see this as a reason that Tracy didn't recognize the voice as Trayvon's? Ask many that have been in this situation, being upset or physically shaken doesn't prevent you from recognizing the voice of your child imo. If anything, imo, it would have caused Tracy to claim it was Trayvon because he was deceased and clinging to any hope Trayvon called for help, but that didn't happen.

imo, Tracy changed his story after Crump TOLD him how damaging it was to the theory they were promoting if the voice wasn't Trayvon. The physical evidence and the witnesses, imo, are going to determine this fact.

Did he ever heard his son before screaming for his life?

Tracy was there to follow the protocol to retrieve his son's body from the morgue. How do you know what his state of mind was at that moment.

He raised Trayvon.
He knows his sons voice.
He heard the higher pitched tone of the voice.
It's possible that he has witnessed Trayvon in other confrontations.
We don't know.
Maybe he knows that Trayvon would express a request for help differently.

He apparently was aware of other aspects of Trayvon's personality or habits which precluded him from reporting him missing the night of the shooting, calling juvie before calling police the next day, expressing understanding of Serino's conclusions to the shooting investigation, and insisting against giving investigators access to Trayvon's phone.

Again, it was Crump, not Tracy, who said Tracy was unable to make a correct indentification, when he said it wasn't Trayvon's voice.

Tamta - imo, this is exactly correct. I bet Crump had a fit to hear Tracy didn't claim it was Trayvon's voice, I guess the handler's can ONLY control so much that comes out f the mouth of Tracy and Sabrina, but they can and do certainly start SPINNING to correct anything that doesn't support their theory and agenda imo.

Just as Crump has told Tracy NOT TO COOPERATE in releasing the pin to the phone. imo It is not going to SUPPORT their agenda, DESPITE the constant grand standing of Crump in the media claiming to DO ANYTHING to cooperate, in fact, another Crump Team lie or WHY doesn't Crump have Tracy cooperate as he said he would.

Removed by poster.

Removed by poster.

art tart wrote:Tamta - imo, this is exactly correct. I bet Crump had a fit to hear Tracy didn't claim it was Trayvon's voice, I guess the handler's can ONLY control so much that comes out f the mouth of Tracy and Sabrina, but they can and do certainly start SPINNING to correct anything that doesn't support their theory and agenda imo.

Just as Crump has told Tracy NOT TO COOPERATE in releasing the pin to the phone. imo It is not going to SUPPORT their agenda, DESPITE the constant grand standing of Crump in the media claiming to DO ANYTHING to cooperate, in fact, another Crump Team lie or WHY doesn't Crump have Tracy cooperate as he said he would.

Enter the lawyers.

NPR
Two days after the shooting, the high-profile civil rights attorney started getting calls about the case. "My phone was buzzing," Crump says.

Enter lawlerly nuance.

OS
Serino said Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, listened to all of the 911 calls in the case before the entire family convened at City Hall to listen Friday night. When asked if the voice on one, a male calling for help was his son, told Serino no.

Police lied Friday, Crump said, when they said Tracy Martin said the voice crying for help was not his son. What Tracy Martin told police, Crump said, was that "he couldn't tell, that it was too distorted."

The audio has since been cleaned up, and now Tracy Martin has no doubt but that the voice is his son, Crump said.

Tracy hears ALL of the calls, yet just one gets cleaned up?
We go from Tracy saying that it is not Trayvon, to Tracy saying he could not tell if it was Trayvon.
Tracy hears ALL of the recordings but misidentifies only one?


What audio does Sybrina hear?
In how many audios does she identify as hearing Trayvon's voice?

Sun Sentinel

The boy's mother could only listen to about half of the recordings, Crump said.

Do not forget the misleading headlines of the media weighing in with their spin.

Huff Post

CORRECTION: A previous headline for this story stated that voice experts claimed the cries on the 911 call came from Trayvon Martin. In fact, they only said that the cries did not come from George Zimmerman.

It is because lawyers say it is.

Sun Sentinel

Both lawyers characterized what they heard as "murder" and said Zimmerman should be arrested immediately and federal authorities should take over the case.

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/05/150068233/how-lawyer-got-nation-talking-about-trayvon-martin

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-20120316_1_deadly-shooting-shot-man-reports/2

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/31/trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-screams_n_1394224.html

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-20120316,0,573686.story?page=2

No talk of the elusive 13 March Serino affidavit here.

March 20
CNN

Let me also say this. I just spoke once again to one of the Martin family attorneys and she feels that the push to now send this in front of the grand jury is a direct result of the release of that affidavit, that affidavit from the girl.

______

Enter Crump's narrative.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html

Judge in Zimmerman murder trial to hear his defamation lawsuit against NBC

A caseload swap has led to the judge overseeing George Zimmerman’s trial for the death of Trayvon Martin will also hear his defamation lawsuit against NBC.

According to The Orlando Sentinel, Judge Debra S. Nelson will hear Zimmerman’s suit against NBC Universal Media LLC after switching cases with Judge Marlene Alva, effective Jan. 2. At that point, Nelson will mostly handle civil lawsuits, with one exception being Zimmerman’s trial for shooting and killing 17-year-old Martin in Sanford, Florida, in February.

O’Mara told the newspaper he did not see any conflict caused by Nelson taking on both cases.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/14/judge-in-zimmerman-murder-trial-to-hear-his-defamation-lawsuit-against-nbc/


Judge Nelson to preside over NBC suit.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-nbc-judge-20121214,0,5740654.story

For someone who doesn't watch TV, Judge Nelson is going to hate that!!!

It will probably confirm all the reason she doesn't watch.

art tart wrote:Judge in Zimmerman murder trial to hear his defamation lawsuit against NBC

A caseload swap has led to the judge overseeing George Zimmerman’s trial for the death of Trayvon Martin will also hear his defamation lawsuit against NBC.

According to The Orlando Sentinel, Judge Debra S. Nelson will hear Zimmerman’s suit against NBC Universal Media LLC after switching cases with Judge Marlene Alva, effective Jan. 2. At that point, Nelson will mostly handle civil lawsuits, with one exception being Zimmerman’s trial for shooting and killing 17-year-old Martin in Sanford, Florida, in February.

O’Mara told the newspaper he did not see any conflict caused by Nelson taking on both cases.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/14/judge-in-zimmerman-murder-trial-to-hear-his-defamation-lawsuit-against-nbc/


Judge Nelson to preside over NBC suit.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-nbc-judge-20121214,0,5740654.story

Thanks for the OS link. I started a new tread about it at TL. All are consumed with the Conn. shootings today. I had to back away from that for a while to regain some composure.

art tart wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Any parent would be.

But Tracy Martin also does this:

Tracy expresses to Serino that he sees that Serino was running an investigation that would do its best to get to the truth of the incident, in front of other witnesses Tracy denies the screams are Trayvons, and by Serino's accounts, Tracy understood what the investigation was concluding.

By 5 March, when Tracy is asked about the phone pin, we see Tracy say at the Presser that Nat Jackson held that Tracy would not help law enforcement and that Tracy then believed the shooting had racial motivations.

Tamta - after reading hundreds of Trayvon's tweet's last night, I thought I would scream if I read the word "nigga" one more time. After reading hundreds, I just stopped, I get it. imo, Tracy/Sabrina/Crump all know that the pictures/correspondence on the cell phone are not going to support any image of Trayvon they have told the Media.

Does it matter? I didn't think so at first but I do now, with the Crump team making racial accusations and stating blatant lies to the public in some cases during their Media Blitz, it does matter. What is Tracy afraid of? imo, most of us know exactly what that phone is going to show and exactly what it is not going to show or Tracy would have gladly turned the pin # over...........MOM is right, it's all matters at this point, imo.

Isn't the race issue off limits in the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman forum?

I see constant allusions to the subject on this thread. Are we allowed to discuss the topic now?

Inquiring minds want to know.......

Alessandra shared:

Isn't the race issue off limits in the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman forum?

I see constant allusions to the subject on this thread. Are we allowed to discuss the topic now?

Alessandra -

The fact is, until the handler's of the family quit calling GZ a "racist murderer in the media on a continuous basis," that aspect of race is part of this case as the handler's keep it in the case. The bashing is ongoing from the handler's.

GZ being considered a "racist" or "racial profiling" is not part of this case and the FBI did not find any evidence of such.

Trayvon's tweets and the name he chose for himself are too facts and are part of this case.

It would seem the debate or discussion about race is off limits as it has no place in the case, but the facts as I have listed, are part of the case, they are facts and part of this case.

My understanding is discussing or debating race is off limits, but, stating a fact about race being used in this case, imo, is different.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

art tart wrote:

Tamta - after reading hundreds of Trayvon's tweet's last night, I thought I would scream if I read the word "nigga" one more time. After reading hundreds, I just stopped, I get it. imo, Tracy/Sabrina/Crump all know that the pictures/correspondence on the cell phone are not going to support any image of Trayvon they have told the Media.

Does it matter? I didn't think so at first but I do now, with the Crump team making racial accusations and stating blatant lies to the public in some cases during their Media Blitz, it does matter. What is Tracy afraid of? imo, most of us know exactly what that phone is going to show and exactly what it is not going to show or Tracy would have gladly turned the pin # over...........MOM is right, it's all matters at this point, imo.

Isn't the race issue off limits in the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman forum?

I see constant allusions to the subject on this thread. Are we allowed to discuss the topic now?

Inquiring minds want to know.......

Not that your question was serious, but discussing how the media and other individuals connected to this case are/have been exploiting the intitial, incorrect presentation of this case as a racially motivated incident is quite different than characterizing Zimmerman Trayvon or another individual connected to this case as a racist and asserting as undisputed fact that this is a hate crime.

art tart wrote:

Alessandra shared:

Isn't the race issue off limits in the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman forum?

I see constant allusions to the subject on this thread. Are we allowed to discuss the topic now?

Alessandra -

The fact is, until the handler's of the family quit calling GZ a "racist murderer in the media on a continuous basis," that aspect of race is part of this case as the handler's keep it in the case. The bashing is ongoing.

GZ being considered a "racist" or "racial profiling" is not part of this case and the FBI did not find any evidence of such.

Since you brought it up, I would like to say that before Zimmerman was arrested, his father, his brother and Frank Taaffe stated on national television that Twin Lakes had experienced a rash of burglaries that were mostly perpetrated by young black males before Trayvon was shot and killed by Zimmerman.

The following is just an example of what was being said ...

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/zimmerman-neighbor-rash-robberies-young-black-men-trayvon-145647987.html

Alessandra, the case is past Taffe and what he said in the beginning of the case, I saw the interviews of Taffe in the beginning. The case is past GZ being considered a racist by the FBI and that is the bottom line, that pertains to this case, the known facts, it's not debatable.

The bashing of GZ continues to be a problem in this case by the handler's of the family, I guess if the family handler's can call GZ a "racist murderer enough times," some uninformed people that don't keep up with the case might believe it or a perspective juror might hear it, how could they not? That too is a fact. That has relevance in this ongoing case and an agenda is promoted, that's why I expect it to continue until the case is over or Crump is sued, which ever comes first.

art tart wrote:Alessandra, the case is past Taffe and what he said in the beginning of the case, I saw the interviews of Taffe in the beginning. The case is past GZ being considered a racist by the FBI and that is the bottom line, that pertains to this case, the known facts.

The bashing of GZ continues to be a problem in this case by the handler's of the family, I guess if the family handler's can call GZ a "racist murderer enough times," some uninformed people that don't keep up with the case might believe it. That too is a fact. That has relevance in this case and an agenda is promoted, that's why I expect it to continue until the case is over or Crump is sued first.

Handlers? Are you referring to Trayvon family's lawyers? I found it offensive and distasteful when O'Mara used that word at the court hearing, his lack of decorum is appalling.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

art tart wrote:Alessandra, the case is past Taffe and what he said in the beginning of the case, I saw the interviews of Taffe in the beginning. The case is past GZ being considered a racist by the FBI and that is the bottom line, that pertains to this case, the known facts.

The bashing of GZ continues to be a problem in this case by the handler's of the family, I guess if the family handler's can call GZ a "racist murderer enough times," some uninformed people that don't keep up with the case might believe it. That too is a fact. That has relevance in this case and an agenda is promoted, that's why I expect it to continue until the case is over or Crump is sued first.

Handlers? Are you referring to Trayvon family's lawyers? I found it offensive and distasteful when O'Mara used that word at the court hearing, his lack of decorum is appalling.

Of course I am referring to the Handler's of Sabrina/Tracy, Team Crump and associates. MOM was right on in calling the group "handler's" imo, that's exactly what they are. It encompasses more than attorney's involved with the family, there are PR people involved, Activists, etc., involved, "handler's" imo, encompasses the entire group promoting their agenda imo.

art tart wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Handlers? Are you referring to Trayvon family's lawyers? I found it offensive and distasteful when O'Mara used that word at the court hearing, his lack of decorum is appalling.

Of course I am referring to the Handler's of Sabrina/Tracy, Team Crump and associates. MOM was right on in calling the group "handler's" imo, that's exactly what they are. It encompasses more than attorney's involved with the family, there are PR people involved, Activists, etc., involved, "handler's" imo, encompasses the entire group promoting their agenda imo.

If it wasn't for the lawyers, the activists, and the PR campaign, Zimmerman wouldn't never been arrested, and Trayvon's death would have been swept under the carpet.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

art tart wrote:

Of course I am referring to the Handler's of Sabrina/Tracy, Team Crump and associates. MOM was right on in calling the group "handler's" imo, that's exactly what they are. It encompasses more than attorney's involved with the family, there are PR people involved, Activists, etc., involved, "handler's" imo, encompasses the entire group promoting their agenda imo.

If it wasn't for the lawyers, the activists, and the PR campaign, Zimmerman wouldn't never been arrested, and Trayvon's death would have been swept under the carpet.

Innocent people should not be arrested, charged, and put through the criminal justice system to be used as tools for personal or political gain of others.

It is really not okay what the Martin family by hiring Crump and Jackson, and the state of Florida have done to address the questions that may have persisted for some from the shooting.

The means to 'bring this case to justice',( insert sarcasm), falsehoods, interference, and manipulations every single step of the way, is just plain wrong.
Just to get it to trial.
For who?
It is NOT about Trayvon Martin anymore, if it really ever was.

Telling lies to get an arrest is not justice.
Not even close.

You are clearly are Machiavellian to approve of these results.

Alessandra - you're suggesting that due to the "handler's," an arrest was made and had it not been for the handler's, it would have been swept under the rug.

All Sabrina wanted was an "arrest." Both agendas have been accomplished, but instead of allowing the system to work and come to trial, the "Handler's" continue to try the case in the Media and that's not going to change.

I agree with Tamta, it's not about Trayvon anymore and hasn't been for a long time. The financial aspect is great, Crump & Associates couldn't buy the publicity they generate to promote themselves, but, imo, they are hurting the case. The $$$$$$ keeps Crump involved too imo.

art tart wrote:Alessandra - you're suggesting that due to the "handler's," an arrest was made and had it not been for the handler's, it would have been swept under the rug.

All Sabrina wanted was an "arrest." Both agendas have been accomplished, but instead of allowing the system to work and come to trial, the "Handler's" continue to try the case in the Media and that's not going to change.

I agree with Tamta, it's not about Trayvon anymore and hasn't been for a long time. The financial aspect is great, Crump & Associates couldn't buy the publicity they generate to promote themselves, but, imo, they are hurting the case. The $$$$$$ keeps Crump involved too imo.

Contrary to what you might think, this case didn't stop when Zimmerman was arrested, the arrest was the beginning of a long criminal process.

Trayvon parents wanted Zimmerman to be arrested and to be tried for the death or their son, they want Trayvon to have his day in court, he deserves that. The trial has not yet started.

Zimmerman will have the opportunity to assert his self defense claims in a court of law, and that's exactly what Trayvon's parents wanted.

No matter how much some people try to make this case about something else, this case is (and always will be) about Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager who was shot and killed by a an overzealous watchman who erroneously perceived him as a criminal.

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

If it wasn't for the lawyers, the activists, and the PR campaign, Zimmerman wouldn't never been arrested, and Trayvon's death would have been swept under the carpet.

Innocent people should not be arrested, charged, and put through the criminal justice system to be used as tools for personal or political gain of others.

It is really not okay what the Martin family by hiring Crump and Jackson, and the state of Florida have done to address the questions that may have persisted for some from the shooting.

The means to 'bring this case to justice',( insert sarcasm), falsehoods, interference, and manipulations every single step of the way, is just plain wrong.
Just to get it to trial.
For who?
It is NOT about Trayvon Martin anymore, if it really ever was.

Telling lies to get an arrest is not justice.
Not even close.

You are clearly are Machiavellian to approve of these results.

The most interesting thing about this post is your reference to Niccolo Machiavelli, "Il Principe" is my most favorite political treatise. It is intriguing and fascinating! (Off Topic).

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

art tart wrote:Alessandra - you're suggesting that due to the "handler's," an arrest was made and had it not been for the handler's, it would have been swept under the rug.

All Sabrina wanted was an "arrest." Both agendas have been accomplished, but instead of allowing the system to work and come to trial, the "Handler's" continue to try the case in the Media and that's not going to change.

I agree with Tamta, it's not about Trayvon anymore and hasn't been for a long time. The financial aspect is great, Crump & Associates couldn't buy the publicity they generate to promote themselves, but, imo, they are hurting the case. The $$$$$$ keeps Crump involved too imo.

Contrary to what you might think, this case didn't stop when Zimmerman was arrested, the arrest was the beginning of long criminal process.

Trayvon parents wanted Zimmerman to be arrested and to be tried for the death or their son, they want Trayvon to have his day in court, he deserves that. The trial has not yet started.

Zimmerman will have the opportunity to assert his self defense claims in a court of law, and that's exactly what Trayvon's parents wanted.

No matter how much some people try to make this case about something else, this case is (and always will be) about Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager who was shot and killed by a an overzealous watchman who erroneously perceived him as a criminal.

No no no no.

Sorry, this case was made something else and it was not by the public, but by the media, Crump, and Julison.

Crump and Julison recreated the story of the shooting into exactly what you just said.
You bought it.


They made it a murder story and they sold it with a civil rights cover and then modified it to the underdog cover when the word defamation started floating around.

The media with its need-to-know-now approach, the Martin family lawyers and PR team, and Angela Corey, cherry picked police reports, twisted facts into factoids with spin, patently made stuff up, and exploited contradictory eye witness accounts, to create a civil rights murder story laced with inaccuracies and short comings.

Lucky for them Zimmerman was not black.

The criminal justice system is not about what anyone WANTS.
Martin's family, based on evidence thus far, appeared to have no grounds, other than emotional, for not accepting the investigation.

Their team created a false narrative and bullied LE and the State of FLorida with the threat of extended civil unrest if their demands were not met.

By the way, Travyon's parents want a conviction, not a trial.

Do not tell me that is what people seeking justice say.
That is the language of revenge.

I do not even know if they are listening to themselves anymore.

art tart wrote:Alessandra - you're suggesting that due to the "handler's," an arrest was made and had it not been for the handler's, it would have been swept under the rug.

All Sabrina wanted was an "arrest." Both agendas have been accomplished, but instead of allowing the system to work and come to trial, the "Handler's" continue to try the case in the Media and that's not going to change.

I agree with Tamta, it's not about Trayvon anymore and hasn't been for a long time. The financial aspect is great, Crump & Associates couldn't buy the publicity they generate to promote themselves, but, imo, they are hurting the case. The $$$$$$ keeps Crump involved too imo.

With all due respect Art, Subrina wanted an arrest, and yes, that was accomplished.
Unfortunately, MOM is NO better than Crump lately, IMO! He is losing all sense of moral decency, IMO.
The article on his site about the cyber-whatever-witness-intimidation was unbelievable, IMO.
Read between the lines, it says, it’s your fault. Give us her social media handles, or else.

The really sad part is, I came across an article a few ago, and the unfortunate part is,
IMO, it is very true.
I'm not trying to bring up an issue that should not be discussed here,
but more so point out that if the shoe was on the other foot...the story WOULD BE A LOT different.
-snipped-
George Zimmerman — not Trayvon Martin — has a criminal record that includes violence, including an assault on a police officer. Perhaps USA Today can put some front cover energy into that information. The Orlando Sentinal reported that in 2005, Zimmerman’s ex-fiance, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion for a restraining order, alleging domestic violence. In that same year Zimmerman was arrested after a tussle with a law enforcement officer. So why is it Martin, who is dead and has no criminal record being analyzed?

Zimmerman had so much time on his hands he called police 46 times over a 15 month period. If Martin had been done that it’s likely he’d been arrested for harassing the police. The Miami Herald reported in August that failed cop wannabe Zimmerman had a lowly D in a criminal justice class and a .5 (yes, that’s “point five”) to 2.3 grade point average. Remind me again, who was the “troubled” one and who was the bad student?


http://politic365.com/2012/12/14/would-usa-today-ask-this-question-if-trayvon-martin-was-white/#.UMtLn3HH8OY.twitter

art tart wrote:Alessandra - you're suggesting that due to the "handler's," an arrest was made and had it not been for the handler's, it would have been swept under the rug.

All Sabrina wanted was an "arrest." Both agendas have been accomplished, but instead of allowing the system to work and come to trial, the "Handler's" continue to try the case in the Media and that's not going to change.

I agree with Tamta, it's not about Trayvon anymore and hasn't been for a long time. The financial aspect is great, Crump & Associates couldn't buy the publicity they generate to promote themselves, but, imo, they are hurting the case. The $$$$$$ keeps Crump involved too imo.

Alessandra shared;

Contrary to what you might think, this case didn't stop when Zimmerman was arrested, the arrest was the beginning of a long criminal process.

Trayvon parents wanted Zimmerman to be arrested and to be tried for the death or their son, they want Trayvon to have his day in court, he deserves that. The trial has not yet started.

This is EXACTLY what I said in my comment. In addition, OF COURSE EVERYONE knows the trial has not yet started!

Zimmerman will have the opportunity to assert his self defense claims in a court of law, and that's exactly what Trayvon's parents wanted.

You are exactly correct but the MEDIA campaign by the Handler's hasn't stopped. Of course that too is what the family wants, to keep the Handler's and their agenda in the news, OR, they would wait for the trial, allow the Justice system to work.

No matter how much some people try to make this case about something else, this case is (and always will be) about Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager who was shot and killed by a an overzealous watchman who erroneously perceived him as a criminal.

People as you say, or not making it about something else, the "Handler's continue to harp on a racial element and making it about something else, MOST people, imo, want a fair trial, many do not.

Kimmy, I wholeheartedly disagee with your comment, imo, Crump is an opportunist, that's not going to change, but that's the nicest thing I can say about him. A liar is the least I can say about him.

Comparing MOM to Crump is insulting and imo, untrue.

I don't think you want to open the can of worms on character, it won't be pretty and as hard as the family and the Handler's have fought this, it's coming out. Everything.

The moral character of Angela Corey is appalling, google her and see the lengths she is willing to go to intimate.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

art tart wrote:Alessandra - you're suggesting that due to the "handler's," an arrest was made and had it not been for the handler's, it would have been swept under the rug.

All Sabrina wanted was an "arrest." Both agendas have been accomplished, but instead of allowing the system to work and come to trial, the "Handler's" continue to try the case in the Media and that's not going to change.

I agree with Tamta, it's not about Trayvon anymore and hasn't been for a long time. The financial aspect is great, Crump & Associates couldn't buy the publicity they generate to promote themselves, but, imo, they are hurting the case. The $$$$$$ keeps Crump involved too imo.

Contrary to what you might think, this case didn't stop when Zimmerman was arrested, the arrest was the beginning of a long criminal process.

Trayvon parents wanted Zimmerman to be arrested and to be tried for the death or their son, they want Trayvon to have his day in court, he deserves that. The trial has not yet started.

Zimmerman will have the opportunity to assert his self defense claims in a court of law, and that's exactly what Trayvon's parents wanted.

No matter how much some people try to make this case about something else, this case is (and always will be) about Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager who was shot and killed by a an overzealous watchman who erroneously perceived him as a criminal.

I totally agree, and that is why the Martin family sought out the help, and Crump became involved.

Another Video by LLMPapa...
This one titled "Evidence of Direction"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGmwMa-VhRg

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Contrary to what you might think, this case didn't stop when Zimmerman was arrested, the arrest was the beginning of long criminal process.

Trayvon parents wanted Zimmerman to be arrested and to be tried for the death or their son, they want Trayvon to have his day in court, he deserves that. The trial has not yet started.

There wasn't enough time to conduct an investigation to determine if Zimmerman's version(s) of the events on the night of the shooting were self serving. Without any kind of evidence the police told Tracy Martin that Zimmerman had shot his son in self defense and that under the Stand Your Ground Law, they were forbiden from making an arrest, and that they didn't have evidence to contradict his statements.

Zimmerman will have the opportunity to assert his self defense claims in a court of law, and that's exactly what Trayvon's parents wanted.

No matter how much some people try to make this case about something else, this case is (and always will be) about Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager who was shot and killed by a an overzealous watchman who erroneously perceived him as a criminal.

No no no no.

Sorry, this case was made something else and it was not by the public, but by the media, Crump, and Julison.

Crump and Julison recreated the story of the shooting into exactly what you just said.
You bought it.


They made it a murder story and they sold it with a civil rights cover and then modified it to the underdog cover when the word defamation started floating around.

The media with its need-to-know-now approach, the Martin family lawyers and PR team, and Angela Corey, cherry picked police reports, twisted facts into factoids with spin, patently made stuff up, and exploited contradictory eye witness accounts, to create a civil rights murder story laced with inaccuracies and short comings.

Lucky for them Zimmerman was not black.

The criminal justice system is not about what anyone WANTS.
Martin's family, based on evidence thus far, appeared to have no grounds, other than emotional, for not accepting the investigation.

Their team created a false narrative and bullied LE and the State of FLorida with the threat of extended civil unrest if their demands were not met.

By the way, Travyon's parents want a conviction, not a trial.

Do not tell me that is what people seeking justice say.
That is the language of revenge.

I do not even know if they are listening to themselves anymore.

What investigation?

"In a meeting at the Sanford police station on the morning of Feb. 28, police officers played all the 911 calls for Tracy Martin “in order to provide a better understanding to Mr. Martin as to why the individual who shot his son was not arrested and charged with homicide.”

The meeting took place two days after Trayvon was killed, and one day after the Sanford police had informed Tracy Martin that his son was fatally shot.

Without having conducted a criminal investigation into Trayvon's death, the Sanford police told Tracy Martin that the "evidence" didn't contradict Zimmerman's statements about the night of the shooting, and that the Florida Stand Your Ground Law prohibit them from arresting him.

Removed by poster.

art tart wrote:Alessandra - you're suggesting that due to the "handler's," an arrest was made and had it not been for the handler's, it would have been swept under the rug.

All Sabrina wanted was an "arrest." Both agendas have been accomplished, but instead of allowing the system to work and come to trial, the "Handler's" continue to try the case in the Media and that's not going to change.

I agree with Tamta, it's not about Trayvon anymore and hasn't been for a long time. The financial aspect is great, Crump & Associates couldn't buy the publicity they generate to promote themselves, but, imo, they are hurting the case. The $$$$$$ keeps Crump involved too imo.

O'Mara couldn't buy either all the publicity he has generated for himself through his representation of Zimmerman.

Talking about $$$$$$.......What do you think about O'Mara's Donate Button?

In answer to a question that came up the other day...
Recorded jailhouse phone calls released as evidence revealed that Fox News broadcaster Sean Hannity had offered to pay for Zimmerman’s legal defense — but only if Baez were hired.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/11/19/3105467/detective-in-george-zimmerman.html#storylink=cpy

Well, Good Morning to all... 8-)

How do you account for all of the inconsistancies that have been issued about known evidence in this case? Most of which I believe have come from Natalie Jackson and Ben Crump?

Zimmerman 'ABSOLUTELY BROKE' says O'Mara!

Anyone have an 'extra' MILLION so George can have the 'perfect' defense?
MOM's just sayin...
But wait... Last I heard, I thought the $$ was for his living expenses???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJj6bzLZjcE&feature=youtu.be

Here's a pretty good comment, IMO
Why does GZ need any money at all for a good defense?
If his case is airtight like his defenders claim then a public defender should be able to handle it.
by maqsad1 1 day ago

DebFrmHell wrote:Well, Good Morning to all... 8-)

How do you account for all of the inconsistancies that have been issued about known evidence in this case? Most of which I believe have come from Natalie Jackson and Ben Crump?

Please don't forget to add George to that list! And MOM (see post above)
Need $$ for defense, no living expenses, no defense...

Wait! I thought he was pro-bono, oh right, MOM would like to get paid (I can't blame him there)
Right, but ONLY if there's any $$ left...Geez MOM make up your mind!!!

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Tamta wrote:

No no no no.

Sorry, this case was made something else and it was not by the public, but by the media, Crump, and Julison.

Crump and Julison recreated the story of the shooting into exactly what you just said.
You bought it.


They made it a murder story and they sold it with a civil rights cover and then modified it to the underdog cover when the word defamation started floating around.

The media with its need-to-know-now approach, the Martin family lawyers and PR team, and Angela Corey, cherry picked police reports, twisted facts into factoids with spin, patently made stuff up, and exploited contradictory eye witness accounts, to create a civil rights murder story laced with inaccuracies and short comings.

Lucky for them Zimmerman was not black.

The criminal justice system is not about what anyone WANTS.
Martin's family, based on evidence thus far, appeared to have no grounds, other than emotional, for not accepting the investigation.

Their team created a false narrative and bullied LE and the State of FLorida with the threat of extended civil unrest if their demands were not met.

By the way, Travyon's parents want a conviction, not a trial.

Do not tell me that is what people seeking justice say.
That is the language of revenge.

I do not even know if they are listening to themselves anymore.

What investigation?

"In a meeting at the Sanford police station on the morning of Feb. 28, police officers played all the 911 calls for Tracy Martin “in order to provide a better understanding to Mr. Martin as to why the individual who shot his son was not arrested and charged with homicide.”

The meeting took place two days after Trayvon was killed, and one day after the Sanford police had informed Tracy Martin that his son was fatally shot.

Without having conducted a criminal investigation into Trayvon's death, the Sanford police told Tracy Martin that the "evidence" didn't contradict Zimmerman's statements about the night of the shooting, and that the Florida Stand Your Ground Law prohibit them from arresting him.

The shooting was investigated, read discovery again, and no evidence of criminal intent was found.

We now know that they were right, the evidence didn't contradict Zimmermans narrative. That's how things work here- no grounds for arrest no criminal charges.

You seem to forget that if Crump created Witness 8 from a source of evidence that he would not let LE analyze.
We don't even know if this is valid evidence yet.
By the way, what exactly has the Martin family disputed about the investigation other than its conclusion?

Repeating Trumps mantra doesn't make it true.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

art tart wrote:Alessandra - you're suggesting that due to the "handler's," an arrest was made and had it not been for the handler's, it would have been swept under the rug.

All Sabrina wanted was an "arrest." Both agendas have been accomplished, but instead of allowing the system to work and come to trial, the "Handler's" continue to try the case in the Media and that's not going to change.

I agree with Tamta, it's not about Trayvon anymore and hasn't been for a long time. The financial aspect is great, Crump & Associates couldn't buy the publicity they generate to promote themselves, but, imo, they are hurting the case. The $$$$$$ keeps Crump involved too imo.

O'Mara couldn't buy either all the publicity he has generated for himself through his representation of Zimmerman.

Talking about $$$$$$.......What do you think about O'Mara's Donate Button?

You have a really hard time allowing critical opinions of Crump and the Martin family conduct stand.

Tamta wrote:

art tart wrote:

Alessandra, and you see this as a reason that Tracy didn't recognize the voice as Trayvon's? Ask many that have been in this situation, being upset or physically shaken doesn't prevent you from recognizing the voice of your child imo. If anything, imo, it would have caused Tracy to claim it was Trayvon because he was deceased and clinging to any hope Trayvon called for help, but that didn't happen.

imo, Tracy changed his story after Crump TOLD him how damaging it was to the theory they were promoting if the voice wasn't Trayvon. The physical evidence and the witnesses, imo, are going to determine this fact.

Complaints or concerns about the integrity of the investigation or investigators was not an initial concern of Tracy Martin or the Martin family.

Those complaints were launched later after Crump was hired.

Of course! They hired a lawyer to address the concerns that they had about the investigation (or lack thereof), and to file the complaints on their behalf.

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

O'Mara couldn't buy either all the publicity he has generated for himself through his representation of Zimmerman.

Talking about $$$$$$.......What do you think about O'Mara's Donate Button?

You have a really hard time allowing critical opinions of Crump and the Martin family conduct stand.

Not at all. I beg to differ because debates are not always a matter of who is right or who is wrong, there are usually two or more sides in a discussion, every side has their own opinions, and opinions are normally subjective.

Alessandra - the problem is, there are known facts as to the dishonesty/blatant lies of Crump's behavior and you support that too. Your refusal to even admit the dishonesty and the lies are the problem ESPECIALLY when some are listed as factual and not opinions. A known fact is a fact, an opinion is just that, it can be debated but you argue/debate ANYTHING that puts GZ in a favorable light or supports his defense EVEN IF it is a known fact.

I have NO problem with the DONATE button, GZ has a defense to put on and it's expensive, imo, it would be better to secure the funds in donations if possible than have the taxpayer's of Fla. PAY FOR THE DEFENSE. But then, you are going to complain IF GZ eventually has to file "indigent status," you'll complain and argue about that to. You can't have it both ways..

KimmyK wrote:Zimmerman 'ABSOLUTELY BROKE' says O'Mara!

Anyone have an 'extra' MILLION so George can have the 'perfect' defense?
MOM's just sayin...
But wait... Last I heard, I thought the $$ was for his living expenses???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJj6bzLZjcE&feature=youtu.be

Here's a pretty good comment, IMO
Why does GZ need any money at all for a good defense?
If his case is airtight like his defenders claim then a public defender should be able to handle it.
by maqsad1 1 day ago

Kimmy - it's a good thing we live in America and someone ACCUSED of a crime can CHOOSE their attorney, do you live out of this country also as this is a right of every singe person in America, American's know this. It's really none of your business who GZ chose to represent him, but it seems to anger you that he has a top notch team defending his rights in a Court that he is supposed to be presumed "not guilty" until tried. Quoting other blogger's that support your opinion are ridiculous, especially since you and your blogger have convicted GZ.

MOM's has not said this case is airtight, that is ONLY your opinion but again not stated as such, MOM is confident in his defense of GZ and the weak evidence, imo, brought forth by the State, there is a big difference.

DebFrmHell wrote:Well, Good Morning to all... 8-)

How do you account for all of the inconsistancies that have been issued about known evidence in this case? Most of which I believe have come from Natalie Jackson and Ben Crump?

DebFrmHell - LOL = as you can read, those that have convicted GZ support the lies put forth by the Crump Team, imo.

Kimmy is dragging opinions of unknown blogger's to this site, wtf? Are they attorney's or site owner's that have known credibility or just an anonymous blogger that post an opinion that supports her own opinion?

Several of us have mentioned Jeralyn, a site owner and a CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, in other words, just the facts. She is great as well as other attorney's on her site as to interpreting the law for blogger's. She doesn't allow anything to be stated that is not a known fact, you can't be more fair than that imo but those that have already convicted GZ would have nothing to comment there.

art tart wrote:

KimmyK wrote:Zimmerman 'ABSOLUTELY BROKE' says O'Mara!

Anyone have an 'extra' MILLION so George can have the 'perfect' defense?
MOM's just sayin...
But wait... Last I heard, I thought the $$ was for his living expenses???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJj6bzLZjcE&feature=youtu.be

Here's a pretty good comment, IMO
Why does GZ need any money at all for a good defense?
If his case is airtight like his defenders claim then a public defender should be able to handle it.
by maqsad1 1 day ago

Kimmy - it's a good thing we live in America and someone ACCUSED of a crime can CHOOSE their attorney, do you live out of this country also as this is a right of every singe person in America, American's know this. It's really none of your business who GZ chose to represent him, but it seems to anger you that he has a top notch team defending his rights in a Court that he is supposed to be presumed "not guilty" until tried. Quoting other blogger's that support your opinion are ridiculous, especially since you and your blogger have convicted GZ.

MOM's has not said this case is airtight, that is ONLY your opinion but again not stated as such, MOM is confident in his defense of GZ and the weak evidence, imo, brought forth by the State, there is a big difference.

Doesn't the same principle apply to Trayvon's family? Do they also have the rights to choose whomever they want to represent them?

I would imagine so since it is a right of every single person in America. And, it is no one's business who they choose to represent them. (Paraphrasing).

Alessandra shared:

Doesn't the same principle apply to Trayvon's family? Do they also have the rights to choose whomever they want to represent them?

I would imagine so since it is a right of every single person in America. And, it is no one's business who they choose to represent them. (Paraphrasing).

Alessandra
while I agree Trayvon's family has a right to choose anyone they want to represent them, in this case, it's unfortunate imo they chose the Crump Team Handler's as they have misrepresented, lied, and spewed an agenda and that's a fact, not an opinion.

The family has supported the Handler's agenda, they are willing participants and they have indeed chosen whom they want.