Kyron Horman -- Missing 6/4/10 #3

I apologize ...I can't seem to quote and scroll down in a comment box on this iPad... Johna's post was what I was replying to. I'm sorry it sounded so general.

soulpatch,
It's cool; good reminder that it's wise to consider sources and be clear to stipulate when we are speculating or voicing an opinion (as opposed to fact). It does happen where rumor is repeated enough it becomes fact; wouldn't want to see that happen here...

There is really very little to discuss if we are only dealing in facts.

bebecat wrote:There is really very little to discuss if we are only dealing in facts.

Especially if we cannot agree that the RO and divorce filing information is not factual. Guess we can chat again after the arrests!

My opinion about the doctor's appt. didn't come from TJ. It came from my own perception, based on the comments from what several different people said. I have a daughter who suffered from a seizure disorder, so I have understand why Terri could leave Kyron even when she knew he was having problems, though I'm aware that the majority of people have no idea how seizures affect someone or how they would react if they did see someone having one. Depending on the type, most would probably pass it off as someone just staring off into space, distracted or not paying attention.

I already posted my reason why I don't think Dede helped Terri and TJ wasn't the person I first heard that from.

I read TJ post from the start when he first injected himself into this investigation and he said Dede was guilty. I did not then and do not believe now that he is a reliable witness. He changed his story and said she wasn't guilty and now he's saying she's guilty again. He is a messager for Kaine.

Some of my opinions when there has been no information released to the public by LE are based on personal experience with having known people like Kaine Horman. And from my own reactions to given situations and interacting with people in general and knowing how they respond to different situations.

I am not convinced there will be arrests, or an arrest. Unless, as the ADA said, some significant piece of evidence materializes.

soulpatch wrote:
Especially if we cannot agree that the RO and divorce filing information is not factual. Guess we can chat again after the arrests!

The actual documents for RO and divorce are legal and according to court requirements. Unless I'm wrong, I don't think anyone disputed that fact. What is not assumed by all here to be fact is the claims made in the filings. From what we've heard reported, the RO filing alluded to Kaine being told by LE that his wife may have tried to hire someone to murder him. I believe that's a fact; Kaine was told that. Also a fact, at the time of that filing, the MFH allegation was not substantiated and a failed sting had already taken place. Since then, still no confirmation and no charges. It doesn't definitively mean there was no MFH plot, but it has not been proven so I presume innocence.

The alleged sexts and the phone ownership is hinky - it is quite odd for the document filed on behalf of Kaine to reflect a source number for the sexts registered to Kaine. The evidence document has been posted and it does show Kaine's number. You gotta admit, it's a very weird clerical error on the part of Kaine and his attorney, or it's fishy. One or the other. If it can be explained away, fine, but right now it's an unanswered question as to why Kaine's number is reflected. Also, MC was subpoenaed to appear at the divorce/RO hearing and was never even called into the courtroom. Personally, I don't think the sexts or the phone ownership issues are that big a deal. Divorce cases see a lot of false allegations and deceit by one party against another. It's not right, but it's in no way unique to this case every day - sexting is piddley stuff by comparison.

The MFH is the big deal and no charges have been brought, but the allegation itself contributed to Kiara being separated completely from her mother. That's a fact.

I am not convinced Terri is innocent of involvement in MFH or abduction. I don't think she is guilty at this point because there is not evidence to support it (that we've seen). My opinion is that Kyron is not missing because someone wanted to get rid of an adorable 7 year old boy, but instead Kyron is missing because someone else desperately wanted to get a hold of one. Just my opinion, not a fact. It could change tomorrow with evidence.

Questioning things is helpful in this case, imo. There's a lot of "stuff" out there and we shouldn't take anyone's word that everything we hear or see (in divorce court or elsewhere) is beyond question. I guess we're the court of public opinion and we have reasonable doubts about a lot of things in this case. Evidence would be lovely...

Nite all...

How would this person get Kyron out of the school? Did Kyron know this person? Why wouldn't Kyron say something to someone? So for this to work, a bad guy would have to have been known to Kyron and probably the school for Kyron to quietly go with him.

These questions and comments come up a lot, but I personally have been held against my will by a person who is stronger than me. If a man can subdue a woman, it would not be a problem for a strong person to hold, carry or keep a child from calling out or screaming. If for instance, Kyron went to the bathroom and someone was waiting there, this person could have easily have grabbed Kyron with one hand and covered his mouth with the other and walked away with him. If the bathroom where Kyron went to was in an isolated location from where others were gathered, this person could have walked out the door and not been seen, or maybe Kyron was placed in the mechanical or boiler room or a storage closet or a space beneath the stage, or an unused room at that time, such as the library or music room, where he could have been held, bound and gagged until the person found an opportunity to move him, maybe even at the end of the school day.

Kyron could have walked right out the door with someone. Children tend to obey adults in a school, whether known or not. They think all adults in a school are the authorities. And, reportedly, Kaine had been all over Kyron about minding better in school and listening to the adults better.

With the event of the day, all the chaos of extra people running around, excited children in the school, summer looming on the horizon, little brothers and sisters visiting in the school, nobody signing in or out, no one watching the doors, all anyone had to do is spot a potential victim and tell them about an exhibit to see, or ask them to help them carry something out to a car, or anything.

Kyron very easily would have walked right out the door with a complete stranger, even possibly, all the way to their vehicle if he was told to help carry something out. Since people were wandering around in and out of the school all morning, no one would even register it happening. It would have seemed completely normal. We tend to forget normal events. Think about it. You go to the grocery store and see people loading things in their vehicle. You don't notice who or what they are. If you saw someone dragging someone out of the store towards a car, that would stand out. Ted Bundy used the ruse to kidnap adults. Simply ask for a hand, and by the time they are bent over placing items in the vehicle, it is too late. A small child would be even easier to get to comply.

YUP! Anything could have been said..."Kyron, Ms. Porter wants you to help me bring this to the blue van out back."

anything is RIGHT!

You know to me it seems WAY more plausible that a stranger did this, than Terri working up some elaborate plan that would have required assistance.
But what of all that hoaky behavior on her part - is she just weird and no one noticed or cared until now?

I certainly do think it's within reason that she would feel responsible for this even if it were a stranger...afterall had she stayed as she was expected to that day...and exactly why didn't she...fussy child (not her fault, but maybe she could have gotten someone to stay at home with Kiara), hung-over (now that would be enough to send many over the edge for sure - who wouldn't feel like a piece of shiat if this were the case), bored - not in the mood (again - who wouldn't beat themselves up for that)?

So in a way I can even explain all her hoaky behavior too...

I have a friend, who also happens to be adopted. She was adopted by a financially stable couple, she was given the best of EVERYTHING...but she is a train wreck. She is nice, but for some reason she goes through these phases of self-destruction. I could absolutley see my friend having some of these same outlandish shocking type events go on in her life...and worse too really. I've known her since we were about 18, and she constantly shocks me with the lengths that she will go to f-up her life. And it's not like she is just a f-up...not at all, she does well, she accomplishes good things...then she throws it all away - as if she is punishing herself or something...it's sad really!

Each time I heard of one of these shocking things from Terri, this friend of mine popped into my head. I could be wrong, but something in me tells me that she did not do this and all this self-destructive behavior, is just that, self-destructive - maybe even due to her 'guilt' for not staying???

It's so sad! I just wish that Kyron would be found already! I want so bad to hope he is alive, and in many ways I still do, but it pains me to think that may be the case - because that really only means one way and I hate 'hoping' for that scenario.

I can only hope he is home soon!

My Christmas wish!!!

Great post KJ.

I bet if you peeled the layers back on a lot of people's lives and behaviors and you were looking to make their oddities explain a mysterious scenario, it wouldn't be that difficult. Of course, Terri could be involved which explains a lot as well, but not feeling it either.

I hope you get your Christmas wish!!

Thanks TBT!!!

Also Wishing that Andrew, Alex & Tanner come home too!

Let's all say an extra prayer for these little men - God hold them tight and help us bring them home for a true Christmas miracle!

It is sad that everything there is to say, has pretty much been said, and all of the Kyron boards and threads are so quiet of late.

It wouldn't hurt for LE to come out and say, we still need help, we can't find Kyron, he was wearing clothes like these, let's all keep looking, we know it is the holidays, but he still needs to be found...just remind people when they are out walking, hiking, whatever they do, to keep their eyes open. No one wants to think he is out there in the elements, but at this point, there is as good a chance of that being the case as anything else...and just a week or so ago, Kaine said he was meetng local people who dd not even know he has not been found...

johnabelle wrote:How would this person get Kyron out of the school? Did Kyron know this person? Why wouldn't Kyron say something to someone? So for this to work, a bad guy would have to have been known to Kyron and probably the school for Kyron to quietly go with him.

Kaine might have told Kyron he was going to come to the exhibit and to meet him in the parking lot at a certain time.

Likewise it would be possible that Terri told Kyron someone was going to bring him something, and that he should be out in the parking lot at a certain time to get it.

The landscaper at the Horman home who also works at the school might have told Kyron that one or the other parent was waiting for him in the parking lot, and then followed Kyron out into the parking lot.

johnabelle wrote:These questions and comments come up a lot, but I personally have been held against my will by a person who is stronger than me. If a man can subdue a woman, it would not be a problem for a strong person to hold, carry or keep a child from calling out or screaming. If for instance, Kyron went to the bathroom and someone was waiting there, this person could have easily have grabbed Kyron with one hand and covered his mouth with the other and walked away with him. If the bathroom where Kyron went to was in an isolated location from where others were gathered, this person could have walked out the door and not been seen, or maybe Kyron was placed in the mechanical or boiler room or a storage closet or a space beneath the stage, or an unused room at that time, such as the library or music room, where he could have been held, bound and gagged until the person found an opportunity to move him, maybe even at the end of the school day.

But that's all contrary to known facts. Serial killers do not want to be caught, and neither do serial rapists or serial child molesters.

They would not choose a place where there is a high risk of being caught, and despite what people think, having a science fair and a play makes that extremely high risk. You don't want to be in the school while students, parents, teachers and staff are milling about and people are coming and going from the building. You would want a normal school day, when the hallways are clear of people because students and teachers are in their classrooms, and staff are in their offices.

I'm not even sure there's a precedent for that. I can't think of any case where someone actually went into the school building to abduct someone (other than child custody disputes where both parents would have been known to students, teachers and staff and not raised any suspicions -- and even in those cases the children were abducted from school grounds or adjacent to school grounds, not from within the building itself).

bebecat wrote:It is sad that everything there is to say, has pretty much been said, and all of the Kyron boards and threads are so quiet of late.

What, no presser from Kaine about missing Kyron at the holidays and wishing Kyron was home?

Who didn't see that coming? I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so.

Last weekend, volunteers in Medford, Oregon held a gift-wrapping fundraiser at Walgreens in an effort to raise money to continue the search for Kyron. In addition, t-shirts, bumper stickers, and wristbands were sold regarding the case.

Volunteer Sarah Miller said “I never realized how much money it took to search for him… So I guess any little thing helps.”

http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-national/kyron-horman-update-family-s-first-christmas-without-missing-oregon-boy

Kaine wasn't there. That was just volunteers.

Not interested in high risk? Children are abducted from crowded parks, malls, department stores, even their very own beds with the family right there! I think that is all very high risk. We aren't talking about a child disappearing from a game of hide and seek in a lonely forest. Sickos get off on the high risk. It is part of their thrill.

People molest children in public places all the time. They molest the children of their friends. They molest children in crowded homes. They really don't give a rat's a$$ about the other people. A threat here and there, or a little coercion, goes a long way in keeping a child quiet and cooperative.

And while they don't want to get caught, they love to show how stupid other people are by NOT catching them in these high risk activities.

I would think a crowd of people would be the perfect way of not getting caught...getting "lost" in the crowd, so to speak.

Mircea wrote:

johnabelle wrote:How would this person get Kyron out of the school? Did Kyron know this person? Why wouldn't Kyron say something to someone? So for this to work, a bad guy would have to have been known to Kyron and probably the school for Kyron to quietly go with him.

Kaine might have told Kyron he was going to come to the exhibit and to meet him in the parking lot at a certain time.

Likewise it would be possible that Terri told Kyron someone was going to bring him something, and that he should be out in the parking lot at a certain time to get it.

The landscaper at the Horman home who also works at the school might have told Kyron that one or the other parent was waiting for him in the parking lot, and then followed Kyron out into the parking lot.

johnabelle wrote:These questions and comments come up a lot, but I personally have been held against my will by a person who is stronger than me. If a man can subdue a woman, it would not be a problem for a strong person to hold, carry or keep a child from calling out or screaming. If for instance, Kyron went to the bathroom and someone was waiting there, this person could have easily have grabbed Kyron with one hand and covered his mouth with the other and walked away with him. If the bathroom where Kyron went to was in an isolated location from where others were gathered, this person could have walked out the door and not been seen, or maybe Kyron was placed in the mechanical or boiler room or a storage closet or a space beneath the stage, or an unused room at that time, such as the library or music room, where he could have been held, bound and gagged until the person found an opportunity to move him, maybe even at the end of the school day.

But that's all contrary to known facts. Serial killers do not want to be caught, and neither do serial rapists or serial child molesters.

They would not choose a place where there is a high risk of being caught, and despite what people think, having a science fair and a play makes that extremely high risk. You don't want to be in the school while students, parents, teachers and staff are milling about and people are coming and going from the building. You would want a normal school day, when the hallways are clear of people because students and teachers are in their classrooms, and staff are in their offices.

I'm not even sure there's a precedent for that. I can't think of any case where someone actually went into the school building to abduct someone (other than child custody disputes where both parents would have been known to students, teachers and staff and not raised any suspicions -- and even in those cases the children were abducted from school grounds or adjacent to school grounds, not from within the building itself).

bebecat wrote:It is sad that everything there is to say, has pretty much been said, and all of the Kyron boards and threads are so quiet of late.

What, no presser from Kaine about missing Kyron at the holidays and wishing Kyron was home?

Who didn't see that coming? I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so.

Last weekend, volunteers in Medford, Oregon held a gift-wrapping fundraiser at Walgreens in an effort to raise money to continue the search for Kyron. In addition, t-shirts, bumper stickers, and wristbands were sold regarding the case.

Volunteer Sarah Miller said “I never realized how much money it took to search for him… So I guess any little thing helps.”

http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-national/kyron-horman-update-family-s-first-christmas-without-missing-oregon-boy

Kaine wasn't there. That was just volunteers.

I think an assumption is being made here that may not be necessarily true...firstly there are many ways to lure a child without force or a scene that would invoke concern. Very simply telling a child in an authoritative manner to do something that seems reasonable to a 7yo would accomplish a lot. Another would be to befriend the child somehow, which I think is more typical of pigs. "Oh dud, did you see that wicked kewel electric project downstairs in the back room?" WHAT? You haven't seen it dude...I'll bring you down.

No muss no fuss.

Also, I think it is more than typical for these pond-scum sucking bas-tards to go right to where they are least expected to be and take advantage of chaos. Malls, carnavals, beaches, on & on...I don't know if some of them also get off ON the high risk, or that what seems like high risk to us, is actually prime conditions (which if it is the case works to their advantage). Bottom line is, kids get snatched right out from under our noses all the time in the midst of 'chaos' how many reports have we read or heard about where kids go missing right after school as the kids are being let out?

Course we could debate this until the cows come home...some see it as a much easier scenario for a stranger to have done this, and others see it as easier that Terri could have done something.

I personally just can't get past the planning and assistance that she would have needed to pull this off. To me, it seems that had she really been stewing about this and hating Kaine so much that she wold be willing to remove Kyron...there is a MUCH simplier & straight forward approach...leave the Horman home and take Kiara with her. Why in the world would she want to stay with a man she hated so much that she would off his kid? Why in the world would she hate a kid that much. IF it was Kyron she most despised...there would be much more effective means of gettign him removed from the house without compromising her marriage and her motherhood.

It just seems SO outlandish to consider to me. But I know so many others have their beliefs and that my perspective is equally as outlandish to them.

We will never know what the truth is unless some major break occurs...and that may not even be locating Kyron. If he is alive, then for sure we will learn the thruth - if he is deseased, unless there is some evidence in his remains, we may never learn the truth.

It's all so sad!

My biggest fear is that some hideous pig does have him, and soem miracle occurs, like with Sean, Ben and Jaycee...and this little man comes home damaged and broken to a desimated family.

Imagine what poor James is going through in high school - poor kid is likely been menaced on a routine basis...imagine the resentment that he has toward Kyron. Look at the way his parents have alienated his step-mom...the woman that he calls mom, the one who has been caring for him for the most part...and will Kiara even remember him?

It's so sad to consider that possibility. And it's terrifying to think that a monster may have walked into that school and left without anyone noticing anything out of the ordinary.

But who registers information about people that are not unique in some way (appearance or behavior) that they don't know. How many people do you suppose fit this description for each person that was present? I'm thinking of the 490 people present...a good number of faces were being 'ignored' by each person. Oh yeah, I think it's quite possible.

Terri on the other hand with a fussy baby, flaming red hair, and a familiar face there, likely was seen, regognized, and remembered by many more than some joe-shmoe-pervert would have been.

This is why I think we should bring back the scarlet letter...these f-ers need to be branded - right on their foreheads! If we can't execute them, then either burn a big CM or P on their forehead like the animals they are - or fine, I'll take a less torturous tatoo, it works just as well!!!

Ok - slight vent & rant there....

My point - we need more information. Until then, all we are doing is frustrating ourselves with what-ifs.

Happy New Year everyone. Let's all hope 2011 bring Kyron and all these children home.

I didn't mean to imply that in my comment that was how Kyron was taken from the school, as I don't know. I was just answering a possibility as to how someone could have taken him and it not be known. There are several people who think Kyron would have yelled out if he had been taken from inside the school or that someone would have seen him if he had walked out with someone.
=====================================

Lea Conner from BOC claims that LE has a description of a man that was seen with Kyron by a witness and this man was seen with Kyron inside the school after Terri Horman left.

You can find the information after the comments on the sex/text messages--about middle ways of the page--at the following link.

http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/11/02/kyron-horman-case-terri-horman-sexts-sent-to-kaine-hormans-phone-what/comment-page-92/

In one of Terri's emails she stated that someone had told her that Kyron had been seen with a man and 2 girls after she left. I believe it was Desiree that mentioned that a man was seen by truck. This supposedly was reported by a witness and was during the time that Terri was inside the school.

Not sure if you are directing your comment to me johnabelle - didn't mean to imply that I think you think you have answers that we don't have...

I just mean that, like you pointed out, that some people are of the belief that it couldn't possibly be a stranger because someone would have seen something...

When I think they are not seeing the possibility that there are ways of luring a child that do not involve screams and a scuffle. Just wanted to make that point...and then just remind everyone (before we get too far down the path) that almost anythig is still possible, and until we actually have more information released, that we could get pretty upset with one another but still be wrong.

We just don't know...I suppose it's still possible that Kyron walked out of that school on his own and got lost.

That's all I was saying. Sure we can talk about it...but I just didn't want people to get to hung up, like we've seen on other sites...just a friendly "reality" check, that's all!



And wouldn't that be a fine how do ya do, if some jack-waud went in there with kids so they looked even more like a parent visiting their kids project with all the intentions of snagging another kid - WTF!

OOPS eta: about the man by the truck. My first thoughts when this came out was that Kyron was a target and someone was waiting on Terri to leave. They saw the truck and peeked in to make sure it was theirs to be sure. Then when the GK spoke out...I thought for sure it was him next to his truck that people were remembering.

I'm going to revert back to this nagging feeling I have in my pit - LE have their eye on someone, and at this moment it's best for this person to think that LE is way off in left field in terms of who their suspect is. This is best for Kyron's safety.

As much as I would like to give K & D a piece of my mind - it just does not make any sense to me that they would attack Terri this way if they thought she had information necessary to resolve this. The best way to get that out of her is with honey not vinegar right? I mean if she did have information, what in the world would pursuade her to offer it up now? She's got nothin, certainly if she gives up any info she stands to only lose more. Makes no sense. If she was comfortable and surrounded by friends & family, it would be easy to convince her that it won't be horrible to give it up - PLUS constant access would allow more opportunities for her to slip up...just makes no sense...unless they really don't think it's her.

And the thing is that LE really isn't saying it's Terri...it's K&D that are. Infact last time LE answered a question about Terri, they said she is cooperating. She stopped after that foolish sting and her child was taken away...see?

Course anything could be possible at this point! I really wish they tell us more.

I'm trying hard to hold out hope that LE knows what they are doing. Even in the face of the fact that Portland is the child trafficing center of america. Certainly that paints LE in a bad light in terms of their effectiveness in cases liek these...but I keep reminding myself that they have access to homeland security, immegration, FBE and that child abduction team (???? forget now what it's called). I gotta believe they aren't being stubborn, I gotta believe they are taking full advantage of these supports...if that is true, I gotta believe they are getting somewhere - because if this is not true then they look like a bunch of bafoons...it's hard to imagine they are THAT bad.

So once again...here's hoping 2011 brings the truth out!

I wasn't directing my comment to anyone in particular.

bebecat wrote:Wonder where all the GLP posters went when their board shut down? Do they have another site?

For those who may be interested and don't know--I posted the link, but then that site was also shut down for violations. The new link is:

http://socallinkss2.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=register

So far this site isn't as bad as the other one or GLP, but most still do hold the belief that Terri and Dede are responsible.

I don't believe that LE is deflecting onto Terri to keep another suspect from knowing they are on to them...I don't think LE is on to anyone or anything...and I don't think Kyron is being held someplace...

LE isn't really deflecting or directing anything...it's K & D...so it's hard for me to know what to think. I just wonder if they let them spout off because it's not hurting anything.

I do remember after one of their pressers that LE said that they do not support their ideas...so who knows!

So many possibilities!

Wanted to just link their statement:

http://www.mcso.us/public/newsroom.htm#kyron

MULTNOMAH COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE HAS NO COMMENTS REGARDING THE JULY 8, 2010 YOUNG/HORMAN PRESS CONFERENCES
Posted: July 8th, 2010 6:48 PM

There will be no comment from the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office regarding the information reported during the Horman/Young July 8, 2010 press conferences. The information released in during these conferences did NOT come from the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office. This is an ongoing investigation.

This was the point at which they began pointing their fingers at Terri. Esentially nothing more has come from LE about Terri since.

Peace be with you little Kyron.

I don't know what happened or who's responsible. All I know is that an innocent child has disappeared, in plain sight.

The info may not have come from MCSO...but maybe from the FBI or another agency or from Tony Young via his own connections...maybe MCSO is just trying to distance themselves, who knows...or maybe it did not come thru them officially.
I don't know if I can blame Desiree and Kaine too much, as if they really truly believe Terri harmed Kyron, it would be very hard to stay silent. It might not be right to do what they have been doing, but they seem to believe in it. I would hope if they are wrong, they will apologize at some point, but I am more worried about never knowing who took Kyron, or what happened to him. I honestly don't think we ever will know.

I'm not too worried about Terri, except where it concerns Kyron also.

If Terri is responsible, their actions are not constructive toward getting the information necessary to resolve this.

If Terri is not responsible, and Kyron comes home, they have decimated the support system that he will need.

I also worry about the effect this is all having on the other children as well. Guilty or not, Terri is their mother, and to have the relationship severed is NOT healthy for any developing child...regardless of what she may be responsible for. The children need their mother.

Question? Was the landscaper at the school the same one who worked for the Hormans? I never thought they were the same person. I keep hearing him bantered about because of his dual connection, the supposed MFH plot & being at the school when Kyron disappeared.

So, has anyone heard definitively they ARE the same person? I don't think so, but if it is one and the same, it does make one wonder.

Maat, it is confusing to me, too. There is the groundskeeper and there is the landscaper-two seperate men. I think many are thinking they are one and the same. IDK~

Terri withdraws request to see her daughter

Story Published: Dec 27, 2010 at 9:14 AM PST

PORTLAND, Ore. – Terri Horman has filed a motion with the court to dismiss her request for parenting time with the nearly-2-year-old daughter she shares with Kaine Horman, father of missing Skyline elementary student Kyron Horman.

It was a month ago that Terri Horman began her legal fight for visitation with her daughter, Kiara, after she won a court victory to put Kaine Horman's divorce proceedings on hold. The judge agreed that continuing with the divorce would jeopardize Terri's 5th Amendment rights and all matters in the divorce have been held over until Jan. 6, 2011

Read more:
http://www.kval.com/news/112506339.html

Video:

The ban on the press coverage for the abduction of Tori Stafford (8 years old, in Canada) was partially lifted. The girl was abducted leaving school by an 18 year old woman who then took the girl to her older boyfriend. Tori was murdered within hours and discarded in a trash bag in a remote roadside area. The 18 year old woman plead guilty and got life in prison earlier this month; her boyfriend is awaiting trial. Tori's mom was very angry that LE focused so heavily on her and Tori's stepfather and brother for so long. Canadian LE went so far as to tell the community that this was an "isolated and targeted incident", sound familiar? Meanwhile, there were 2 abductors on the loose and 2 reports of attempted abduction in the same area. While there is a loose connection between Tori's mom and the female abductor, it appears by the abductor's guilty plea and statement that it had no bearing on the abduction; she grabbed the first little girl who was alone outside the school - using her dog as bait.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/05/22/police-search-tori459.html

There are some that compare Terri Horman to Dianne Downs or Susan Smith. Maybe it's true (I'm not personally feeling it). But, I think it's important to keep an open mind and also consider the many cases where parents and step-parents are suspected and subject to public rumors and innuendo that are used to make them appear guilty. Tori's female abductor was caught on surveillance tape and it appears the mom was even accused of being the woman on the tape because of vague similarity in appearance. If not for scrutiny of the surveillance tape and Tori's body being found, her mom might well still be the only unofficial (but very public) suspect.

RIP Tori / Peace to Kyron and all who love him...

Maat wrote:Question? Was the landscaper at the school the same one who worked for the Hormans? I never thought they were the same person. I keep hearing him bantered about because of his dual connection, the supposed MFH plot & being at the school when Kyron disappeared.

So, has anyone heard definitively they ARE the same person? I don't think so, but if it is one and the same, it does make one wonder.

If the media was doing its job we wouldn't be asking if they were the same person.

I believe the home Landscaper and the school Groundskeeper are two separate men. Landscaper is Rudy Sanchez. Groundskeeper is Dave Stensen. What's not clear to me is if Rudy Sanchez also did contract work as a landscaper at the school. There's been blog speculation suggesting it, but no confirmation that I've seen.

awaiting justice wrote:I read your post and then had to reread it...
Respectfully, I was a little surprised that you wud write such a statement...

It is appparent that you arent familiar with tons of cases... where they are completely high risk.... you said you cant think of any so I will give you a few that were completley high risk...

I will alos mention that when high risk offenders (and serial killers ) have been interviewed... after they were caught ..many say that half of them hoped to get....and many admigt that if they were free ..they cud not guyarantee that they wud not offend... (Russell Pig Williams) is the most current oone that comes to mind who made such a statement.....
I believe many ppl in society are under the same idea as you are...hence the prob with so many wrongful accusations of the person most likley to have commited the crime .. (boyfriend/spoiuse/last known person)..

Shockingly it seems many ppl dont think that a serial killer or a ped, wud take a child in the open so it must be the family... this is the thinking that enables LE to mess up investigation (Haleigh, Kyron, Leah Freeman...) and so many..

If LE started doing more thorough investigatrions and looking at a broader scope they wuld likely be able to find the evidence to support that the family member/last known person ..was not respeonsible..

Instead they focus on one person and never look past their nose... this in turn lets so much time go by that potential evidence is lost.. now there is nothing to help the wrongly accused person... and with the support of the ppl who scream guilty, for no given reason. other than the way a person stood or how they held their head or what word thehy used. or what the journalist wrote in their report, where they believed it ... LE have carte blanche permission to build circ cases against innocent ppl (and muddy statistics) with innaccurate numbers ... (i.e a very low percent of stranger abductions which there is likley a much higher number but the wrong ppl get convicted and it is a vicous circle.. )

Here are some cases where it was a stranger who took the person in a totally high risk sitch...

Riley Fox
Elizabeth Smart
Jessica Lunsford
Polly Klaas
Daniell VanDam
Tori Stafford
Somer Thompson
Samantha Runion
Denise Amber Lee
Nevaeh Buchanan
Steven Staynor
Shawn Hornbeck
Ben Ownby
Brianna Denison
Punky Gustafson
Tanya Murrell
Leslie Mahaffy
Kristen French
Amber Dubois
Jaycee Dugaard


Here are a few you may want to read up on... and for ANYONE in this world, to believe that children teens, adults are not taken randomly by perfect monster pig HIGH RISK abductors é murderers..... you need to do more research...

Evidently it does happen and the more we ignore it and want to blame mom or dad or the boyfriend ..the more we hurt the victims... How can the victims ever get justice if we want to blomae their loved ones (when there is no evidence)....

Ppl like Terri, who have no criminal history, and no motive and left no evidence.. are the LEAST likely suspect... when are we gonna tell LE that investigations and searching has to be doneÉ When are we gonna tell them to carry on and dont start at the `most likely`..

As long as society continues to wrongfully accuse, dismiss preseumption of innocence, we will continue to create fales innacurate stats that suggest the perp is the spouse, mother, last known person...

In crimes where it was the spouse/boyfriend/mom..etc evidence is left and theses type of perp are caught easy and most times even admitt it...

We need to wise up and make some changes so we catch perps, and stop the injustice to innocent ppl...

Here is another name for the list and that is Westley Allan Dodd. The last child he tried to abduct was a young boy from a movie theater.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westley_Allan_Dodd

When I was 14, I had a man try to snatch me off Daytona Beach in Florida. I was walking with a friend at around 8:30pm. He grabbed me and began dragging me off and left my friend standing there. She promptly took off and left me alone and didn't seek help, pretty much ended the friendship.

Luckily, someone at the beach house he was dragging me past must have heard something and they turned floodlights on the beach. The man ran off one direction and I took off in the other. I considered that high risk, because it was a beach area with houses and hotels, and I was not alone. Being a stupid kid, I never even told my parents because I was afraid they wouldn't let me walk on the beach again. It's amazing how 30+ years changes your outlook on those things.

I had a man who was a fugitive wanted in CA for murder, chase me and a friend of mine through the fair grounds in AZ when I was 11 or 12, with a knife. Finallly someone noticed what was happening and notified security and he was captured. Me and my friend had made it to the bathroom located at the end of the fair grounds and got inside and locked the door, but if someone hadn't seen him he would have eventually have gotten to us as the door was not a thick solid wood door.

It happens. Far, far too often. Like I said, I didn't tell. It makes you wonder how many other attempts have been made and no one reported them.

And I wonder how many of us on here have been touched by this kind of thing in some way. It may be what draws us to trying to figure out the whys and the whos and the hows.

Elphie wrote:

awaiting justice wrote:I read your post and then had to reread it...
Respectfully, I was a little surprised that you wud write such a statement...

It is appparent that you arent familiar with tons of cases... where they are completely high risk.... you said you cant think of any so I will give you a few that were completley high risk...

I will alos mention that when high risk offenders (and serial killers ) have been interviewed... after they were caught ..many say that half of them hoped to get....and many admigt that if they were free ..they cud not guyarantee that they wud not offend... (Russell Pig Williams) is the most current oone that comes to mind who made such a statement.....
I believe many ppl in society are under the same idea as you are...hence the prob with so many wrongful accusations of the person most likley to have commited the crime .. (boyfriend/spoiuse/last known person)..

Shockingly it seems many ppl dont think that a serial killer or a ped, wud take a child in the open so it must be the family... this is the thinking that enables LE to mess up investigation (Haleigh, Kyron, Leah Freeman...) and so many..

If LE started doing more thorough investigatrions and looking at a broader scope they wuld likely be able to find the evidence to support that the family member/last known person ..was not respeonsible..

Instead they focus on one person and never look past their nose... this in turn lets so much time go by that potential evidence is lost.. now there is nothing to help the wrongly accused person... and with the support of the ppl who scream guilty, for no given reason. other than the way a person stood or how they held their head or what word thehy used. or what the journalist wrote in their report, where they believed it ... LE have carte blanche permission to build circ cases against innocent ppl (and muddy statistics) with innaccurate numbers ... (i.e a very low percent of stranger abductions which there is likley a much higher number but the wrong ppl get convicted and it is a vicous circle.. )

Here are some cases where it was a stranger who took the person in a totally high risk sitch...

Riley Fox
Elizabeth Smart
Jessica Lunsford
Polly Klaas
Daniell VanDam
Tori Stafford
Somer Thompson
Samantha Runion
Denise Amber Lee
Nevaeh Buchanan
Steven Staynor
Shawn Hornbeck
Ben Ownby
Brianna Denison
Punky Gustafson
Tanya Murrell
Leslie Mahaffy
Kristen French
Amber Dubois
Jaycee Dugaard


Here are a few you may want to read up on... and for ANYONE in this world, to believe that children teens, adults are not taken randomly by perfect monster pig HIGH RISK abductors é murderers..... you need to do more research...

Evidently it does happen and the more we ignore it and want to blame mom or dad or the boyfriend ..the more we hurt the victims... How can the victims ever get justice if we want to blomae their loved ones (when there is no evidence)....

Ppl like Terri, who have no criminal history, and no motive and left no evidence.. are the LEAST likely suspect... when are we gonna tell LE that investigations and searching has to be doneÉ When are we gonna tell them to carry on and dont start at the `most likely`..

As long as society continues to wrongfully accuse, dismiss preseumption of innocence, we will continue to create fales innacurate stats that suggest the perp is the spouse, mother, last known person...

In crimes where it was the spouse/boyfriend/mom..etc evidence is left and theses type of perp are caught easy and most times even admitt it...

We need to wise up and make some changes so we catch perps, and stop the injustice to innocent ppl...

Here is another name for the list and that is Westley Allan Dodd. The last child he tried to abduct was a young boy from a movie theater.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westley_Allan_Dodd

Thanks AJ for that list. I have been thinking the same thing for a very long time, and when I read up on WAD, well I literally threw up thinking about the 2 brothers and the detailed account of the 4 yr old who he drove to Portland and snatched in broad daylight on a school playground .........

Happy New Year all!!!

Wondering if any new information will surface at the divorce court hearing on Thursday? Doubtful, but curious if it's possible that Staton's comment about a major advance in the case around February has something to do with expectations that something will come out in civil court?

If LE has enough evidence (physical or circumstantial) to name a formal suspect and bring charges in February, they must really be holding things close to the vest because they seem empty-handed to me right now. Hope LE is closer than it seems to finding Kyron and putting the right person away...

awaiting justice wrote:Elphie,

It is sad... and Im glad you are so aware that this type of abduction happens far too often..

As long as LE publically chastize and try implicate (a family member) and we BUY into it.. they wil continue to to do so and sit back and let the perpo walk free, as we are all to busy discussing Terri.. Really, if Teri had anything to do with this, I think we wud have seen evidence by now.. and not just a nut cracker alleging she tried to hire him for a MFH plot ... As if..............

To be honest, I think LE and in this case Kaine and Desiree, want it to be Terri because the chances of Kyron still being alive increases considerably. That aside, Kaine and Desiree bring their own baggage to influence this case, Kiane with a divorce ( which I think he was planning long before the end of June ) and Desiree with past resentments toward Terri. Sometimes a crisis can bring a family closer together, but in this case, family loyalty was thrown out the window early on.

Terri may not be a Mother Theresa, but her history doesn't show her to be a murder either. BTW, the divorce date of Jan 6th has been postponed.

Thanks for the heads-up on the divorce hearing postponement Elphie.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/01/post_53.html

truthbtold wrote:Thanks for the heads-up on the divorce hearing postponement Elphie.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/01/post_53.html

What the article fails to state is that Multnomah County Judge Keith Meisenheimer retired at the end of last year and a new judge will now be assigned to the case.

I know some of you are going to think I’m crazy trust me I’ve spent most of my life thinking the same thing because of things I see, hear and feel inside my head. I know this is not a psychic site but I feel this is the right place to share some things. This is not about being psychic or not but, it’s about finding a missing child and the person or persons that took him. RC seems to be one of the few open minded sites out there looking for answers. With that said I’m going to be open with you so here is where I’m at on my drawing board. I sent 3 emails June 14th, 15th and 20th to LE (Dan Staton Re:Kyron) this was the first time I ever sent an email to the police about a missing child, but my feelings were so strong it consumed me, and I had to do it I’m a mother. This was my test to trust in myself regardless of what people might think, so I put it out there. I stated to Mr. Staton that I focused on Kyron and I could see an older white male with grayish hair wearing some sort of work clothes because I could see his work boots, and this man took Kyron from the boys bathroom I seen (in my head) this man place a large bag in a WHITE utility vehicle the bag reminded me of a sports bag that you carry baseballs and bats in. I felt like this man was doing work at the school that day. Also told him I could see 473 it looked like a sign but it was blurry. I felt like Kyron’s glasses had been removed and I keep hearing Mt.Vernon and some other names and locations that I felt they were passing by. Of course I didn’t think I was the only crazy person out there sending emails claiming to be psychic, but I did explain that I am a mother and take missing children very serious and I didn't want to waste his time, but if any of this made sense to please contact me. I never got a call, but they put photos out of Kyron without his glasses on shortly after, so I hoped that maybe they has received many emails stating the same thing and maybe they at least looked at them. I told my family because I could not get Kyron out of my mind that someone like a maintenance man or a groundskeeper and yes I said groundskeeper had to have been at the school that day. I have continued to focus on Kyron and keep notes hoping that some of the pieces will make sense, because that is what I get pieces not the whole picture and sometimes one piece can have many different meaning. Please hear me out I have post on this site a few times as well as a few other, but today I’m putting it all out there, so take it for whatever it’s worth. I have spent a great deal of time and energy on this, and I don’t know what else to do with it except share with someone that wants the same thing…find Kyron. On August 2nd I had a vision of a blue motorcycle leaving a farm with a man driving and Kyron on the back. I’m not sure what you call this kind of seat but the passenger part sits up higher then the rest of the seat. On August 7th or 8th I came across an interview with the groundskeeper DS (not the landscaper they are two different men). O.K. just the title almost gave a heart attack I could not believe this where in the hell had this guy been for so long, and then within a few days another interview that showed DS that has grayish hair cutting the grass wearing work boots and driving what I called a utility vehicle because of the organ light on top of the truck not to mention that his truck is the same color and make as Terri’s. I started to dig up what I could find on DS and I came to a site called Gungas Farm (DS was a Grassroots band member back in the 60’s) on this site he has a link called “on the farm” my heart skipped a beat and I click on it and at first it did not hit me because I was in a hurry to pick my kids from the bus stop, but I left the site up and when I got back from picking the kids up I was hit with a ton of bricks…there was a picture of DS with a blue motorcycle in the back ground just like I seen in my head. At the time of finding this site (Gungas) Dave had on the front page that he would be out on the road for awhile and would check in when he got back, and that has now been removed. Also DS writes that this was the first time in 12 years he has work a full time job. I’m not sure but I think he has only worked for Portland Rec. for a year, but he stated in his interview that he knew Kyron. (How?) I guess I have a lot of question on this guy, and no one wants to talk about him or some become very defensive on other sites, so RC’s that is why I’m putting it here. PLEASE add him to your drawing board. We know DS was at the school the day Kyron went missing around the time he disappeared. What else do we know about him?

I'm glad you shared. It is something to consider. I, too, believe the initial contact with Kyron that day began in the bathroom. I think Kyron walked out the door with whoever took him. Less noticeable that way. Once he was out the door, all bets are off on how he was removed from the property. The person had to assume he would be looked for in a matter of minutes, to an hour at the most.

I can see how Kyron might follow and obey an older man whom he knew was involved with the school. It was something he had been working on, according to Kaine himself. I think, initially, Kyron had no concerns about following this person, and then he realized something was wrong. By the time he knew he was in trouble, it was too late to turn back. And it breaks my heart that the tunnel vision of all those involved in this case may have allowed someone more time to harm him and get away with it.

I read some where that the groundskeeper, Dave Stensen, took a vacation to Mexico shortly after talking to the press. What I found off about the man, was that he revealed what he knew and saw to the media before going to LE first.

Of course if he went to LE first they would have told him to stay quiet and the public would have even less information about what happened that day.

I've never seen any interview where Dave Stenson says he knew Kyron. He worked for the Park District so he would have no reason to know any student except family or friends' kids attending there. My husband used to be a groundskeeper and him and his group would never use the restrooms for the children. They would use the restroom for the staff/maintenance. This was because it would be too easy to be fingered as a child molester if something awful happened (which did several years back but, thankfully, the accused was found innocent by LE). Anyways, is there a link, DeeMac? TIA

Hi DeeMac, Maat, Sherry and Elphie -
My recollection is the same as Elphie's. Also, he was interview by LE at least twice about what he saw and the timing that day. IIRC, he was mowing the soccer grounds and could not see the location of parked vehicles that LE was inquiring about from his vantage point. I believe it was also Mr. Stensen that said there were some children outside for a short period that morning before or during the Science Fair.

We don't know if LE has cleared anyone; only that they haven't named a suspect. Everyone at the school that day is still a potential suspect as far as the public knows... I do think it would be odd for anyone to kidnap a child on a motorcycle, but if this is a high-risk abductor, who knows?