Re: George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

by ellejay Sat May 19, 2012 11:07 am

Alessandra_Deux wrote:"Diagrams also note Martin was hurt in the fight: blood on his head, a bruise around his eye, scarring on both hands.

When asked by Charlie Rose how yesterday's release of information - some possibly supportive of his client, some possibly not - might affect his case, O'Mara said, "It's sort of important that we all - not only my team but everybody - wait until all the evidence is out.

"I'd rather not comment on partial evidence. Let's deal with it all once we have it, and deal with it in the courtroom," he said.

When asked if he agreed with a police report's statement that the shooting was avoidable, had Zimmerman followed instructions to not pursue Martin - O'Mara replied, "They're entitled to their opinion."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57436911/zimmerman-atty-dont-judge-by-piecemeal-evidence/

--KZ commented on this irresponsible reporting earlier---the reporter clearly can't read."blood on his head" actually indicates his hair, as "black, short"-----the "bruise" around the eye actually indicates eye colour, as "brown".

George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1 - Page 11 Diagram

George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1 - Page 11 Diagram

by Alessandra_Deux Sat May 19, 2012 11:20 am

ellejay wrote:
Alessandra_Deux wrote:"Diagrams also note Martin was hurt in the fight: blood on his head, a bruise around his eye, scarring on both hands.

When asked by Charlie Rose how yesterday's release of information - some possibly supportive of his client, some possibly not - might affect his case, O'Mara said, "It's sort of important that we all - not only my team but everybody - wait until all the evidence is out.

"I'd rather not comment on partial evidence. Let's deal with it all once we have it, and deal with it in the courtroom," he said.

When asked if he agreed with a police report's statement that the shooting was avoidable, had Zimmerman followed instructions to not pursue Martin - O'Mara replied, "They're entitled to their opinion."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57436911/zimmerman-atty-dont-judge-by-piecemeal-evidence/

--KZ commented on this irresponsible reporting earlier---the reporter clearly can't read."blood on his head" actually indicates his hair, as "black, short"-----the "bruise" around the eye actually indicates eye colour, as "brown".

Thanks Ellejay.

I was conditioned by the reporter's comment, when I looked at the diagram, I saw the same thing.

You are totally correct.

by Alessandra_Deux Sat May 19, 2012 11:44 am

Twinkle wrote:Some interesting tidbits regarding the LE interview with Trayvon's "girlfriend":

In an interview with the girl thought to be Trayvon Martin's girlfriend, she explained that she had known Trayvon since kindergarten but denied they were in a relationship. She said that she had talked to him before he left to go to a nearby 7-Eleven and was talking to him when it started to rain.

When Trayvon returned to the complex where he was visiting his father, he took shelter under a covered mail shed, according to the girl. A few minutes later, Trayvon told her a man was "watching him" and following him. She said that he had put his hoodie on, because it was still raining.

"I know he was scared," she said, explaining how his voice was getting kind of low and that he was breathing heavily.

"He told me the guy is getting close to him. The next I heard is, 'Why you following me for?' Then, I heard a man say, 'What are you doing around here?," she recounted.

She said she called Trayvon's name but there was no response. She described what she thought was an altercation and could hear Trayvon yelling, "Get off! Get off!" She said then the phone went dead.

She described Trayvon as "funny" and "a momma's boy," and "a baby," who loved his family.
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/18523624/documents-releases-in-trayvon-martin-shooting

This confirms what I had seen speculated about elsewhere: the girl was not really Trayvon's girlfriend. So I am still left to wonder, especially in light of the fact that she had known Trayvon since kindergarten, why she would hesitate to contact his parents, law enforcement, her school counselor, or someone to inform them of what she knew.

Some things that seem a bit odd to me about her account:

1) She says Trayvon told her he was putting his hood up. That seems a bit weird to me; why mention that?

2) She describes Trayvon running away from the strange creepy guy who was following him, then slowing to a walk after he lost him. At some point he says he doesn't need to run because he is close to his dad's house; this is before he spots GZ again. She says Trayvon sounded scared, yet tells her he isn't going to run because he is tired. After he sees GZ again, she describes Trayvon saying the man is getting closer and closer, yet still Trayvon won't run because he is...tired? Really? He was a young, healthy teenager; you wouldn't think he would be too tired to run when allegedly in fear of a mysterious stalker. I have a hard time imagining that the older, heavier, less fit GZ could run fast enough to catch up with TM, while TM was too tired to run away from him.

3) She describes hearing "grass". How does one hear grass over the phone?

I also find it interesting, for those who think GZ ran around one row of townhouses and surprised TM coming from the other direction, that she continually describes GZ as following TM and getting closer; there is no mention that when GZ reappears, he is in front of TM, causing TM to run in the other direction.

GIRLFRIEND: He gonna start walking. And then the phone hung up and then I called him back again. And then, I said, 'What are you doing?' He said he’s walking, and he said this man is still following him, behind the car. He put his hoodie on.

PROSECUTOR: He, Trayvon, put his hoodie on?

GIRLFRIEND: Yeah, 'cause, he said, it was still a little bit dripping water so he put his hoodie on. So I said, ’What's going on?’ He said,
this man is still watching from a car. So he about to run from the back. I told him, go to his dad’s house. Run to his dad’s house.

PROSECUTOR: Go to what?

GIRLFRIEND: Run to his dad’s house.

PROSECUTOR: To his dad’s house?

GIRLFRIEND: Yeah. So he said he was about to run from the back, so the next that I hear, he just run. I can hear that the wind blowing.

PROSECUTOR: So you could tell he was running at that time? OK. And then
what happened?

GIRLFRIEND: Then he said, he lost him.

PROSECUTOR: He lost what, the man?

GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.

PROSECUTOR: So was Trayvon, at that time, you could tell he was, like, out of breath, like excited?

GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.

PROSECUTOR: OK. Take your time, I know this is difficult for you.

GIRLFRIEND: So he lost him. He was breathing hard. And by the sound of his voice, his voice kind of changed.

PROSECUTOR: Who, Trayvon’s?

GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.

PROSECUTOR: OK. What do you mean by that? His voice changed?

GIRLFRIEND: [inaudible]

PROSECUTOR: I’m sorry?

GIRLFRIEND: I know he was scared.

PROSECUTOR: I know what you are trying to tell me but if you could describe to me how you could tell he was scared.

GIRLFRIEND: His voice was getting kind of low.

PROSECUTOR: So you could tell he was emotional, like somebody who was in fear?

GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.

PROSECUTOR: He was breathing hard?

GIRLFRIEND: He said he had lost him and he was breathing hard and I told him 'Keep running.'

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/5/18/i_know_he_was_scared_trayvon#transcript

by Alessandra_Deux Sat May 19, 2012 11:48 am

Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman Case Witness Interviews [Audio]: Trayvon's Girlfriend Plus 16 More

http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/05/18/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case-witness-interviews-statements-full-audio/

by ellejay Sat May 19, 2012 11:52 am

Twinkle wrote:
snipped-----

2) She describes Trayvon running away from the strange creepy guy who was following him, then slowing to a walk after he lost him. At some point he says he doesn't need to run because he is close to his dad's house; this is before he spots GZ again. She says Trayvon sounded scared, yet tells her he isn't going to run because he is tired. After he sees GZ again, she describes Trayvon saying the man is getting closer and closer, yet still Trayvon won't run because he is...tired? Really? He was a young, healthy teenager; you wouldn't think he would be too tired to run when allegedly in fear of a mysterious stalker. I have a hard time imagining that the older, heavier, less fit GZ could run fast enough to catch up with TM, while TM was too tired to run away from him.

--where have you heard her say that trayvon was "tired"..? i haven't heard that before.

by Gizmo711 Sat May 19, 2012 3:57 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:I thought this was interesting - although it can't be used at trial:

On 2/28/12 Investigator Trekell Perkins received a telephone call from an unidentified female. This female who refused to provide her name, call back number, or any other type of contact information, disclosed to Inv. Perkins that George Zimmerman has racist ideologies, and that he is fully capable of instigating a confrontation that could have escalated to the point of Zimmerman having to use deadly force. Inv. Perkins was able to record a portion of his conversation with this anonymous female and said recording was placed on a compact disc and submitted as evidence. No other information has been obtained to corroborate the anonymous female's information and her identity has not been established.

I suspect that there are people within the development that are afraid to come forward and tell about the "real" George because of people like Taffe and all of the publicity.

I totally agree..Taaffe seems like the type that can make someone miserable if they don't go along with his way of thinking. It would be just as easy to stay out of it rather than to go against Zimmerman near Taaffe. Taaffe seems as just a bully as Zimmerman is. That's probably why they got along so well.

by Gizmo711 Sat May 19, 2012 4:02 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:
Chickenbutt wrote:And another thing to think on....the bullet path was horizontal. If TM was on top of GZ and the shot was fired, wthe path be horizontal or would it have a slightly upward path?

The prosecution has to have something that we don't have - be it an expert saying the trajectory is different than what GZ says happened or something - because from reading the witnesses' testimony, the only thing that I see them basing their case on is someone saw two people chasing each other and someone crying help - both of which are weak IMO...there has to be more evidence than what we have been given. I figure they have a video showing Trayvon never circled the vehicle like GZ said - Lie #1. But what else do they have?

I think the prosecution has a lot more than what they are saying. The so called "confession" of George's is going to play a big roll and the defense is not going to be able to keep it out. They may hold it back from the public but certainly not from the trial once it begins. If his statements do not add up it will be bad for Zimmerman. I have a strong feeling that they wont match up.

by Gizmo711 Sat May 19, 2012 4:06 pm

The way I see it, Zimmerman was nothing more than a mugger, a old punk with a gun. He ambushed Trayvon after racially profiling him. Zimmerman was a time bomb ready to explode and Trayvon (just being a young man going to the store) had to encounter with this hateful individual with a loaded gun. With a gun that had to have taken two hands to shoot it, therefore Zimmerman could not have been in a defense situation like he said he was. It was Trayvon who was defending himself when he struck those blows to Zimmerman.

by CherokeeNative Sat May 19, 2012 4:42 pm

Okay, I believe I have this worked out in my mind as to where the State is going with its case. From reviewing case law, I believe in the realm of "self-defense" the jury will be instructed to view the entire incident as a whole and not in separate sequences of events. And, what I am referring to is - will the jury be instructed to view the case from the point of when GZ exits his vehicle to decide who is the aggressor, or will they be instructed to determine who the aggressor was from the point of the physical altercation between Trayvon and GZ? In the most recent case of Johnson v. State, 65 So.3d 1147 (3rd Dist. 2011) the District Court of Appeal affirmed the defendant's conviction for attempted second degree murder. The Court took pains to note that the acts constituting "initial provocation" must be "contemporaneous" with the actions of the victim. In that case, there were more than one sequence of events that occurred immediately prior to the attempted murder, but the Court treated these facts as a whole. The Court stated: "Specifically, section 776.041 “[s]ubsection (2) precludes the initial aggressor from asserting self-defense where he or she is the individual who provoked the use of force” contemporaneously to the actions of the victim to which the defendant claims self-defense." So, I believe the jury will be allowed to consider the entire incident to determine who the aggressor was.

776.041 allows an aggressor to claim self-defense only if the person "has exhausted every reasonable means to escape" or if "the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force."

GZ profiled Trayvon in his statements to the 911 Dispatcher. When Trayvon traveled out of GZ's field of vision, he exited his vehicle armed with a gun. GZ was intent on not letting Trayvon get away before LE could arrive. Trayvon was completely innocent of all wrong doing; he had simply taken a break from watch March Madness to run to the local 7/11 to buy some snacks and was walking back to his home while talking to his girlfriend by cell phone and ear buds. Under these circumstances, GZ's conduct of exiting his vehicle while armed with a gun was threatening to say the least and was clearly an act of aggression.

GZ was not a member of LE and we know from his 911 call that he ignored the 911 dispatcher’s instruction not to follow the “suspicious" person. We also know that nothing GZ said about the “suspicious" teen was reasonably suspicious. That is, the facts and circumstances that he described (i.e., walking through the development while black and wearing a hoodie) would not cause a reasonable person to suspect that Trayvon was committing a crime. I believe this coupled with being armed with a gun is the "depraved mind" aspect of the State's case against GZ.

Nevertheless, GZ initiated contact with Trayvon and apparently attempted to detain him without waiting for police to arrive. Since GZ was not a police officer, he had no right to detain Trayvon and Trayvon was free to leave without identifying himself or answering any questions. GZ would be considered an aggressor under Florida law, if he used or attempted to use any force to prevent Trayvon from walking away. A witness' statement saw the two in a chase away from the direction of Trayvon's destination. We do not know if this "chase" was mentioned by GZ in his statements to LE - but I believe it is safe to conclude that he didn't; and had it been Trayvon chasing GZ, we would have heard about it from the GZ camp or Taffe.

Under Florida statute 776.012, Trayvon's conduct of kicking GZ's butt can be construed as his attempt to stand his ground and he was entitled to use force, but not deadly force, in self-defense to prevent GZ from assaulting him. He would have been entitled to use deadly force in self-defense under 776.013(3), if Trayvon believed GZ were attempting to inflict serious bodily harm or kill him, which I believe would come into play if Trayvon saw the gun.

It is reasonable to presume that Trayvon's use of non-deadly force against GZ by being on top of him and beating him with his hands was self-defense. We have yet to learn whether GZ had his gun drawn, or whether Trayvon had otherwise become aware of the gun - although GZ's dad says he did - in which case, it would be reasonable for Trayvon to use deadly force in self-defense by bashing GZ's head into the concrete.

GZ's conduct in exiting his vehicle while armed with a gun and following Trayvon is sufficient to "initially provoke" the ensuing struggle, no matter who struck the first blow.

Even if Trayvon struck the first blow, as GZ claims, the fact that Trayvon tried to run away and GZ was chasing him, demonstrates that Trayvon was attempting to retreat before the ground struggle began.

There is absolutely no credible evidence that GZ either tried to escape from Trayvon or that he withdrew from the altercation and clearly indicated his intent to withdraw from the altercation before firing the deadly shot killing Trayvon.

So that is what I believe the State's case is. The fact that it appears there may be evidence that GZ lied about Trayvon circling his vehicle; lied about returning to his vehicle by conveniently omitting to mention the "chase"; and lied about who was yelling for help are all reasons for the Prosecutor to believe the remainder of GZ's statements should be regarded as untruthful. And we still do not know what is in the text messages taken from GZ's cell phone.

I realize that this is in direct contradiction to what Richard Hornsbey believes - but if prosecutors and defense attorneys agreed on the application of the facts and law, there would be no necessity for a trial.

by Twinkle Sat May 19, 2012 4:56 pm

ellejay wrote:
Twinkle wrote:
snipped-----

2) She describes Trayvon running away from the strange creepy guy who was following him, then slowing to a walk after he lost him. At some point he says he doesn't need to run because he is close to his dad's house; this is before he spots GZ again. She says Trayvon sounded scared, yet tells her he isn't going to run because he is tired. After he sees GZ again, she describes Trayvon saying the man is getting closer and closer, yet still Trayvon won't run because he is...tired? Really? He was a young, healthy teenager; you wouldn't think he would be too tired to run when allegedly in fear of a mysterious stalker. I have a hard time imagining that the older, heavier, less fit GZ could run fast enough to catch up with TM, while TM was too tired to run away from him.

--where have you heard her say that trayvon was "tired"..? i haven't heard that before.

Here is the passage from a transcript of LE's interview with Trayvon's "girlfriend":

PROSECUTOR: So you could tell he was emotional, like somebody who was in fear?

GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.

PROSECUTOR: He was breathing hard?

GIRLFRIEND: He said he had lost him and he was breathing hard and I told him 'Keep running.'

PROSECUTOR: So Trayvon said he started walking because he thought he had lost the guy?

GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.

PROSECUTOR: OK.

GIRLFRIEND: I said, 'Keep running.' He said he ain’t gonna run. 'Cause he said he is right by his father's house. And then in a couple minutes he said the man is following him again. He’s behind him. I said, 'Run!' He said he was not going to run. I knew he was not going to run because he was out of breath. And then he was getting excited, the guy’s getting close to him. I told him, 'Run!' And I told him, 'Keep running!' He not going to run. I tell him, 'Why are you not running?' He said ’I’m not gonna.’ He was tired. I know he was tired.

PROSECUTOR: I am sorry, Trayvon said he was not running because—-he’s not going to run he said because you could tell he was tired? How could you tell he was tired?

GIRLFRIEND: He was breathing hard.

PROSECUTOR: Real hard?

GIRLFRIEND: Real hard. And then he told me this guy was getting close! He told me the guy was getting real close to him. And the next I hear is, 'Why are you following me for?'

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/5/18/i_know_he_was_scared_trayvon

by CherokeeNative Sat May 19, 2012 5:00 pm

Twinkle - that just breaks my heart as a mother. To hear that your son was in fear and too tired to run anymore? And then he is shot and killed just because he took a walk to the 7/11. If I were the defense attorney, I would not want this to go before a jury - at least one with mothers.

by Twinkle Sat May 19, 2012 5:22 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:Nevertheless, GZ initiated contact with Trayvon and apparently attempted to detain him without waiting for police to arrive.

How do we know this? At the bond hearing, didn't Dale Gilbreath admit that they don't know who initiated the altercation? I don't think you can equate GZ leaving his car with initiating contact when GZ says he was only trying to see where TM went, then get an address to identify his location, unless the prosecutors have evidence to show that he is lying. Based on what Gilbreath said, it doesn't sound like they do.

CherokeeNative wrote:A witness' statement saw the two in a chase away from the direction of Trayvon's destination.

That particular witness statement is pretty nebulous. If I were on a jury, I surely would not convict for second degree murder based on that.

CherokeeNative wrote:We have yet to learn whether GZ had his gun drawn, or whether Trayvon had otherwise become aware of the gun - although GZ's dad says he did - in which case, it would be reasonable for Trayvon to use deadly force in self-defense by bashing GZ's head into the concrete.

I would think if GZ approached TM with his gun drawn, it would be highly unlikely for the two to end up fighting on the ground, with TM on top beating up GZ "MMA style.

CherokeeNative wrote:GZ's conduct in exiting his vehicle while armed with a gun and following Trayvon is sufficient to "initially provoke" the ensuing struggle, no matter who struck the first blow.

IMO not necessarily. Though I happen to think GZ should have stayed in his vehicle, I don't see why the fact that he left his vehicle should be provocation for an attack from TM. And since it was a concealed weapon, TM would have had no way to know GZ was armed unless GZ was brandishing the weapon. So far as I know, the prosecutors do not have any witness saying that GZ had his weapon drawn.

CherokeeNative wrote:There is absolutely no credible evidence that GZ either tried to escape from Trayvon or that he withdrew from the altercation and clearly indicated his intent to withdraw from the altercation before firing the deadly shot killing Trayvon.

How about the witness "John", who saw TM pinning GZ to the ground while beating him "MMA" style, while GZ was calling for help?

by Twinkle Sat May 19, 2012 5:31 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:Twinkle - that just breaks my heart as a mother. To hear that your son was in fear and too tired to run anymore? And then he is shot and killed just because he took a walk to the 7/11. If I were the defense attorney, I would not want this to go before a jury - at least one with mothers.

I agree that it is heartbreaking...if you find it believable. I am still suspicious of the influence Crump may have had on this young lady. Someone on another website said it better than I can, but I think it is entirely possible that being driven by guilt (which she expressed during this interview with the prosecutor), "DeeDee" may be providing testimony designed to cast Trayvon in the best possible light. That is a very natural tendency after you lose someone you care for, even without the additional burden of feeling like you should have done something to help him or her. So for right now, I take this all with a grain of salt. But it is nonetheless heartbreaking to look at all this evidence as a whole, to see the autopsy report spilling out all Trayvon's personal details and describing his devastating injury, that 7-11 surveillance video, the list of his personal effects.

by CherokeeNative Sat May 19, 2012 6:07 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:Nevertheless, GZ initiated contact with Trayvon and apparently attempted to detain him without waiting for police to arrive.

Twinkle wrote:[How do we know this? At the bond hearing, didn't Dale Gilbreath admit that they don't know who initiated the altercation? I don't think you can equate GZ leaving his car with initiating contact when GZ says he was only trying to see where TM went, then get an address to identify his location, unless the prosecutors have evidence to show that he is lying. Based on what Gilbreath said, it doesn't sound like they do.

By initiate contact and detain - I am meaning face to face contact not physical, and I am taking this from the girlfriend's statement - as well as GZ's statement as represented by the GZ camp: The discussion of "Why are you following me" and "What are you doing here."

CherokeeNative wrote:A witness' statement saw the two in a chase away from the direction of Trayvon's destination.

Twinkle wrote:That particular witness statement is pretty nebulous. If I were on a jury, I surely would not convict for second degree murder based on that.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. But the jury will not be convicting on this witness alone - it will be the accumulation of facts and evidence that will convict.

CherokeeNative wrote:We have yet to learn whether GZ had his gun drawn, or whether Trayvon had otherwise become aware of the gun - although GZ's dad says he did - in which case, it would be reasonable for Trayvon to use deadly force in self-defense by bashing GZ's head into the concrete.

Twinkle wrote:I would think if GZ approached TM with his gun drawn, it would be highly unlikely for the two to end up fighting on the ground, with TM on top beating up GZ "MMA style.

Again, we all have our theories at this point - I would think it took something to set Trayvon off - either he saw the gun, or GZ tried taking hold of him or something to cause him to throw a punch. But we are all entitled to our theories and opinions.

CherokeeNative wrote:GZ's conduct in exiting his vehicle while armed with a gun and following Trayvon is sufficient to "initially provoke" the ensuing struggle, no matter who struck the first blow.

Twinkle wrote:IMO not necessarily. Though I happen to think GZ should have stayed in his vehicle, I don't see why the fact that he left his vehicle should be provocation for an attack from TM. And since it was a concealed weapon, TM would have had no way to know GZ was armed unless GZ was brandishing the weapon. So far as I know, the prosecutors do not have any witness saying that GZ had his weapon drawn.

Again, these are only opinions, but I believe that the fact that he was armed with a concealed weapon enboldened him and I believe a Jury will think along those lines too - what do you think that GZ intended to do once he caught up with GZ? How was he going to make sure that Trayvon didn't get away until the police got there? I think these are things that the jury will consider when they are looking to who initially provoked the ultimate altercation.

CherokeeNative wrote:There is absolutely no credible evidence that GZ either tried to escape from Trayvon or that he withdrew from the altercation and clearly indicated his intent to withdraw from the altercation before firing the deadly shot killing Trayvon.

Twinkle wrote:How about the witness "John", who saw TM pinning GZ to the ground while beating him "MMA" style, while GZ was calling for help?

I don't believe that it was GZ yelling for help - I believe John is mistaken - other witnesses say it was Trayvon and IMO it makes more sense that it was Trayvon since the yelling stopped as soon as the gun was fired. Although we do not have GZ's statements, I don't believe anyone has indicated that he ever told Trayvon that he was the NWC, informed Trayvon that the police were on their way, or anything else that could have prevented the altercation.

You've brought up some good questions Twinkle and I appeciate the opportunity to point out that these are my theories - not set in stone. I will most likely change them as more evidence is presented.

by CherokeeNative Sat May 19, 2012 6:15 pm

Twinkle wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:Twinkle - that just breaks my heart as a mother. To hear that your son was in fear and too tired to run anymore? And then he is shot and killed just because he took a walk to the 7/11. If I were the defense attorney, I would not want this to go before a jury - at least one with mothers.
I agree that it is heartbreaking...if you find it believable. I am still suspicious of the influence Crump may have had on this young lady. Someone on another website said it better than I can, but I think it is entirely possible that being driven by guilt (which she expressed during this interview with the prosecutor), "DeeDee" may be providing testimony designed to cast Trayvon in the best possible light. That is a very natural tendency after you lose someone you care for, even without the additional burden of feeling like you should have done something to help him or her. So for right now, I take this all with a grain of salt. But it is nonetheless heartbreaking to look at all this evidence as a whole, to see the autopsy report spilling out all Trayvon's personal details and describing his devastating injury, that 7-11 surveillance video, the list of his personal effects.

That is exactly why you can never predict how a jury will decide - we all consider and weigh things differently. Cool

by Gizmo711 Sat May 19, 2012 8:30 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:Okay, I believe I have this worked out in my mind as to where the State is going with its case. From reviewing case law, I believe in the realm of "self-defense" the jury will be instructed to view the entire incident as a whole and not in separate sequences of events. And, what I am referring to is - will the jury be instructed to view the case from the point of when GZ exits his vehicle to decide who is the aggressor, or will they be instructed to determine who the aggressor was from the point of the physical altercation between Trayvon and GZ? In the most recent case of Johnson v. State, 65 So.3d 1147 (3rd Dist. 2011) the District Court of Appeal affirmed the defendant's conviction for attempted second degree murder. The Court took pains to note that the acts constituting "initial provocation" must be "contemporaneous" with the actions of the victim. In that case, there were more than one sequence of events that occurred immediately prior to the attempted murder, but the Court treated these facts as a whole. The Court stated: "Specifically, section 776.041 “[s]ubsection (2) precludes the initial aggressor from asserting self-defense where he or she is the individual who provoked the use of force” contemporaneously to the actions of the victim to which the defendant claims self-defense." So, I believe the jury will be allowed to consider the entire incident to determine who the aggressor was.

776.041 allows an aggressor to claim self-defense only if the person "has exhausted every reasonable means to escape" or if "the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force."

GZ profiled Trayvon in his statements to the 911 Dispatcher. When Trayvon traveled out of GZ's field of vision, he exited his vehicle armed with a gun. GZ was intent on not letting Trayvon get away before LE could arrive. Trayvon was completely innocent of all wrong doing; he had simply taken a break from watch March Madness to run to the local 7/11 to buy some snacks and was walking back to his home while talking to his girlfriend by cell phone and ear buds. Under these circumstances, GZ's conduct of exiting his vehicle while armed with a gun was threatening to say the least and was clearly an act of aggression.

GZ was not a member of LE and we know from his 911 call that he ignored the 911 dispatcher’s instruction not to follow the “suspicious" person. We also know that nothing GZ said about the “suspicious" teen was reasonably suspicious. That is, the facts and circumstances that he described (i.e., walking through the development while black and wearing a hoodie) would not cause a reasonable person to suspect that Trayvon was committing a crime. I believe this coupled with being armed with a gun is the "depraved mind" aspect of the State's case against GZ.

Nevertheless, GZ initiated contact with Trayvon and apparently attempted to detain him without waiting for police to arrive. Since GZ was not a police officer, he had no right to detain Trayvon and Trayvon was free to leave without identifying himself or answering any questions. GZ would be considered an aggressor under Florida law, if he used or attempted to use any force to prevent Trayvon from walking away. A witness' statement saw the two in a chase away from the direction of Trayvon's destination. We do not know if this "chase" was mentioned by GZ in his statements to LE - but I believe it is safe to conclude that he didn't; and had it been Trayvon chasing GZ, we would have heard about it from the GZ camp or Taffe.

Under Florida statute 776.012, Trayvon's conduct of kicking GZ's butt can be construed as his attempt to stand his ground and he was entitled to use force, but not deadly force, in self-defense to prevent GZ from assaulting him. He would have been entitled to use deadly force in self-defense under 776.013(3), if Trayvon believed GZ were attempting to inflict serious bodily harm or kill him, which I believe would come into play if Trayvon saw the gun.

It is reasonable to presume that Trayvon's use of non-deadly force against GZ by being on top of him and beating him with his hands was self-defense. We have yet to learn whether GZ had his gun drawn, or whether Trayvon had otherwise become aware of the gun - although GZ's dad says he did - in which case, it would be reasonable for Trayvon to use deadly force in self-defense by bashing GZ's head into the concrete.

GZ's conduct in exiting his vehicle while armed with a gun and following Trayvon is sufficient to "initially provoke" the ensuing struggle, no matter who struck the first blow.

Even if Trayvon struck the first blow, as GZ claims, the fact that Trayvon tried to run away and GZ was chasing him, demonstrates that Trayvon was attempting to retreat before the ground struggle began.

There is absolutely no credible evidence that GZ either tried to escape from Trayvon or that he withdrew from the altercation and clearly indicated his intent to withdraw from the altercation before firing the deadly shot killing Trayvon.

So that is what I believe the State's case is. The fact that it appears there may be evidence that GZ lied about Trayvon circling his vehicle; lied about returning to his vehicle by conveniently omitting to mention the "chase"; and lied about who was yelling for help are all reasons for the Prosecutor to believe the remainder of GZ's statements should be regarded as untruthful. And we still do not know what is in the text messages taken from GZ's cell phone.

I realize that this is in direct contradiction to what Richard Hornsbey believes - but if prosecutors and defense attorneys agreed on the application of the facts and law, there would be no necessity for a trial.

Excellant research...I have to totally agree with you that this is what the case will be made up of, and rightfully so....There is no way that Zimmerman can claim self defense in this case, if so, than what would Trayvon been doing to defend himself? Yes, banging Zimmermans head in the pavement and doing whatever it took to try and defend himself from this attacker (Zimmerman)......

by Gizmo711 Sat May 19, 2012 8:36 pm

It's really something how everyone perceives this case differently...During this time I have heard it blamed on Trayvon for wearing a hoodie, on Trayvons parents for not watching over their son, for Trayvons father for going out to dinner that night and not reporting his son missing until the morning. I have heard that Trayvon was a wannbe criminal a hoodlum, a drug addict who got suspended from school. I have heard how if it wasn't for Trayvon walking home thru the back entrance this may not have happened.

How about we put the blame where it belongs, on Zimmerman, the one who exited his car when told not to, who exited his car with a gun, who profiled a youth for just being black and wearing a hoodie. A young man who was bothering no one and had to end up fighting for his own life on the way home from the store and who ended up losing his life. I just wish Trayvon would have won this battle.....

by Gizmo711 Sat May 19, 2012 8:45 pm

It really doesn't matter much who was the one that was screaming. It very much points to it being Trayvon seeing as the screaming stopped immediately following the fatal shot. However, if it was Zimmerman, it was probably done to justify what he was about to do, and that was to kill this young man for having the audacity to fight back.

As though he may have thought quick to yell for help in hope that a neighbor would step out or look out their window and witness him killing Trayvon in a sort of self defense situation. I don't think that Zimmerman thought at that moment that the 911 calls would come into play as fast as they did. I don't think that Zimmerman would think that this would be considered "murder". IF and I mean IF it was Zimmerman screaming then it was staged to look like self defense. There would be NO other reason for someone who is holding a loaded weapon to scream for help against an unarmed teenager with a bag of skittles.

by CherokeeNative Sat May 19, 2012 8:46 pm

Amen Gizmo Amen

I don't want to mislead anyone though - this was just my theory on how the prosecution is going to present their case given the evidence we have and assuming some things that I believe they have as evidence. Some will agree and some won't - but that is the beauty of a blog - having things to discuss. Very Happy

by Chickenbutt Sat May 19, 2012 8:50 pm

I totally agree with CN's theory. Now if we can just be certain that the jury will have 12 living, breathing, thinking people on it.

by CherokeeNative Sat May 19, 2012 8:56 pm

Not from Pennellas County or members of the NRA. roflao

by Chickenbutt Sat May 19, 2012 9:07 pm

I think that jury selection will be critical for both sides, and very difficult. Each side will want completely different people with completely different lifestyles and midsets. If we learned anything from CA's case, it is that jury selection will be the "make it or break it" part of this case.

by marcena2 Sat May 19, 2012 9:08 pm

Just an idea...what if George caught up to Trayvon and asked him 'What are you doing here?' and then grabbed at his arm which caused Trayvon to say 'get off, get off' meaning let go of my arm. If they argued and then had their fist fight, Witness John could have seen Trayvon straddling George with George yelling for help. When this witness went to go call 911, he may have not seen George wiggle the fight off the sidewalk to the grass and get up to grab his gun. Another witness sees a man standing over another on the ground with the man on the ground (Trayvon) yelling for help. The man standing up seemed to be pinning the other down by his back. Two more witnesses see only a man laying on the ground yelling for help...no second man and no fight. A fourth witness says there was no physical fighting when the gun went off.

I think George may have been yelling during the first 20 seconds of the fist fight. But once he drew his gun and had it trained on Trayvon on the ground, it was Trayvon's turn to yell for help...and IMO that is the voice you hear on the 911 tape. At that moment knowing that police were on their way, George had options. He could have told Teayvon to freeze, cops are on their way. He could have shot his leg to put an end to any more fighting. But he chose to aim right for the kid's heart with a hollowpoint bullet. That is where I get depraved. No need to do that.

by Chickenbutt Sat May 19, 2012 9:17 pm

marcena2 wrote:Just an idea...what if George caught up to Trayvon and asked him 'What are you doing here?' and then grabbed at his arm which caused Trayvon to say 'get off, get off' meaning let go of my arm. If they argued and then had their fist fight, Witness John could have seen Trayvon straddling George with George yelling for help. When this witness went to go call 911, he may have not seen George wiggle the fight off the sidewalk to the grass and get up to grab his gun. Another witness sees a man standing over another on the ground with the man on the ground (Trayvon) yelling for help. The man standing up seemed to be pinning the other down by his back. Two more witnesses see only a man laying on the ground yelling for help...no second man and no fight. A fourth witness says there was no physical fighting when the gun went off.

I think George may have been yelling during the first 20 seconds of the fist fight. But once he drew his gun and had it trained on Trayvon on the ground, it was Trayvon's turn to yell for help...and IMO that is the voice you hear on the 911 tape. At that moment knowing that police were on their way, George had options. He could have told Teayvon to freeze, cops are on their way. He could have shot his leg to put an end to any more fighting. But he chose to aim right for the kid's heart with a hollowpoint bullet. That is where I get depraved. No need to do that.

With all due respect Marcena....if I was going to shoot someone, I would shoot at center of mass (the largest target possible) not at a leg or an arm. Also, if I was prepared to shoot someone, I should be prepared for that person to die.

by CherokeeNative Sat May 19, 2012 9:27 pm

marcena2 wrote:Just an idea...what if George caught up to Trayvon and asked him 'What are you doing here?' and then grabbed at his arm which caused Trayvon to say 'get off, get off' meaning let go of my arm. If they argued and then had their fist fight, Witness John could have seen Trayvon straddling George with George yelling for help. When this witness went to go call 911, he may have not seen George wiggle the fight off the sidewalk to the grass and get up to grab his gun. Another witness sees a man standing over another on the ground with the man on the ground (Trayvon) yelling for help. The man standing up seemed to be pinning the other down by his back. Two more witnesses see only a man laying on the ground yelling for help...no second man and no fight. A fourth witness says there was no physical fighting when the gun went off.

I think George may have been yelling during the first 20 seconds of the fist fight. But once he drew his gun and had it trained on Trayvon on the ground, it was Trayvon's turn to yell for help...and IMO that is the voice you hear on the 911 tape. At that moment knowing that police were on their way, George had options. He could have told Teayvon to freeze, cops are on their way. He could have shot his leg to put an end to any more fighting. But he chose to aim right for the kid's heart with a hollowpoint bullet. That is where I get depraved. No need to do that.

I read the "get off, get off" and thought maybe that is when Trayvon took his punch at Zimmerman, causing Zimmerman to fall and strike his head...then the chase was on, with Trayvon taking off running back in the direction from which he had come and Zimmerman 10' to 12' behind - Zimmerman catches up with Trayvon again and the ground struggle is on. That is a different theory that could fit from the evidence. It could be that LE has evidence of where Zimmerman struck his head (blood and hair traces) on something. I also noticed that some of the witnesses only saw the one man on the ground, but I thought that was after the fatal shot. I will have to go back and read the witness statements again - the problem is we don't have time sequences to compare - like we did the 911 dispatch in relation to the girlfriend's telephone call. But that is a good theory that I will keep in mind when I go back through the documents.

by marcena2 Sat May 19, 2012 9:45 pm

Chickenbutt wrote:
marcena2 wrote:Just an idea...what if George caught up to Trayvon and asked him 'What are you doing here?' and then grabbed at his arm which caused Trayvon to say 'get off, get off' meaning let go of my arm. If they argued and then had their fist fight, Witness John could have seen Trayvon straddling George with George yelling for help. When this witness went to go call 911, he may have not seen George wiggle the fight off the sidewalk to the grass and get up to grab his gun. Another witness sees a man standing over another on the ground with the man on the ground (Trayvon) yelling for help. The man standing up seemed to be pinning the other down by his back. Two more witnesses see only a man laying on the ground yelling for help...no second man and no fight. A fourth witness says there was no physical fighting when the gun went off.

I think George may have been yelling during the first 20 seconds of the fist fight. But once he drew his gun and had it trained on Trayvon on the ground, it was Trayvon's turn to yell for help...and IMO that is the voice you hear on the 911 tape. At that moment knowing that police were on their way, George had options. He could have told Teayvon to freeze, cops are on their way. He could have shot his leg to put an end to any more fighting. But he chose to aim right for the kid's heart with a hollowpoint bullet. That is where I get depraved. No need to do that.

With all due respect Marcena....if I was going to shoot someone, I would shoot at center of mass (the largest target possible) not at a leg or an arm. Also, if I was prepared to shoot someone, I should be prepared for that person to die.

Even an abdomen shot would be better than a direct shot to the heart. George also knew that cops were minutes away so there would be medical attention. But with the hollowpoint bullets he used though odds are you are right...death would be almost a given. I sometimes forget that George was trained more than the average person on the street, just one credit short from his Associate Degree in Criminal Justice. http://www.seminolestate.edu/criminal-justice/college-credit/asdegree/

by CherokeeNative Sat May 19, 2012 9:53 pm

marcena2 wrote:
Chickenbutt wrote:
marcena2 wrote:Just an idea...what if George caught up to Trayvon and asked him 'What are you doing here?' and then grabbed at his arm which caused Trayvon to say 'get off, get off' meaning let go of my arm. If they argued and then had their fist fight, Witness John could have seen Trayvon straddling George with George yelling for help. When this witness went to go call 911, he may have not seen George wiggle the fight off the sidewalk to the grass and get up to grab his gun. Another witness sees a man standing over another on the ground with the man on the ground (Trayvon) yelling for help. The man standing up seemed to be pinning the other down by his back. Two more witnesses see only a man laying on the ground yelling for help...no second man and no fight. A fourth witness says there was no physical fighting when the gun went off.

I think George may have been yelling during the first 20 seconds of the fist fight. But once he drew his gun and had it trained on Trayvon on the ground, it was Trayvon's turn to yell for help...and IMO that is the voice you hear on the 911 tape. At that moment knowing that police were on their way, George had options. He could have told Teayvon to freeze, cops are on their way. He could have shot his leg to put an end to any more fighting. But he chose to aim right for the kid's heart with a hollowpoint bullet. That is where I get depraved. No need to do that.

With all due respect Marcena....if I was going to shoot someone, I would shoot at center of mass (the largest target possible) not at a leg or an arm. Also, if I was prepared to shoot someone, I should be prepared for that person to die.

Even an abdomen shot would be better than a direct shot to the heart. George also knew that cops were minutes away so there would be medical attention. But with the hollowpoint bullets he used though odds are you are right...death would be almost a given. I sometimes forget that George was trained more than the average person on the street, just one credit short from his Associate Degree in Criminal Justice. http://www.seminolestate.edu/criminal-justice/college-credit/asdegree/

Plus, he had all that experience hitting mexicans...

by Twinkle Sat May 19, 2012 11:07 pm

CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:Nevertheless, GZ initiated contact with Trayvon and apparently attempted to detain him without waiting for police to arrive.
Twinkle wrote:[How do we know this? At the bond hearing, didn't Dale Gilbreath admit that they don't know who initiated the altercation? I don't think you can equate GZ leaving his car with initiating contact when GZ says he was only trying to see where TM went, then get an address to identify his location, unless the prosecutors have evidence to show that he is lying. Based on what Gilbreath said, it doesn't sound like they do.

By initiate contact and detain - I am meaning face to face contact not physical, and I am taking this from the girlfriend's statement - as well as GZ's statement as represented by the GZ camp: The discussion of "Why are you following me" and "What are you doing here."

Thanks for explaining your thoughts on this. I would just add that the GZ version of events, as best we can determine without having seen his statements, is that he was walking back to his car when TM initiated contact with him and then punched him. So I don't think the GZ version of events bolsters the girlfriend's statement, unless there is something quite different in his statements from what we've been hearing from his father, brother, and other sources reporting what the police have said. But it is true that the version of GZ's story we've heard and the "girlfriend"s account have in common GZ and TM abruptly coming face to face and exchanging words before ending up in a physical altercation.

CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:A witness' statement saw the two in a chase away from the direction of Trayvon's destination.
Twinkle wrote:That particular witness statement is pretty nebulous. If I were on a jury, I surely would not convict for second degree murder based on that.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. But the jury will not be convicting on this witness alone - it will be the accumulation of facts and evidence that will convict.

True, but if you discount this testimony, what is left to establish that GZ was chasing TM? I guess there is still the "girlfriend"'s testimony. However, her description of TM being "close by" his father's house, with GZ following and closing the distance behind him, doesn't really mesh well with that witness's testimony, which as I understand it has two people running in the opposite direction, away from Brandy Green's home.

CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:We have yet to learn whether GZ had his gun drawn, or whether Trayvon had otherwise become aware of the gun - although GZ's dad says he did - in which case, it would be reasonable for Trayvon to use deadly force in self-defense by bashing GZ's head into the concrete.

Twinkle wrote:I would think if GZ approached TM with his gun drawn, it would be highly unlikely for the two to end up fighting on the ground, with TM on top beating up GZ "MMA style.

Again, we all have our theories at this point - I would think it took something to set Trayvon off - either he saw the gun, or GZ tried taking hold of him or something to cause him to throw a punch. But we are all entitled to our theories and opinions.

Very true. At this point I admittedly have no idea what would have set Trayvon off enough to throw the first punch, beyond the fact that he understandably would not appreciate someone watching and seemingly stalking him.

CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:GZ's conduct in exiting his vehicle while armed with a gun and following Trayvon is sufficient to "initially provoke" the ensuing struggle, no matter who struck the first blow.

Twinkle wrote:IMO not necessarily. Though I happen to think GZ should have stayed in his vehicle, I don't see why the fact that he left his vehicle should be provocation for an attack from TM. And since it was a concealed weapon, TM would have had no way to know GZ was armed unless GZ was brandishing the weapon. So far as I know, the prosecutors do not have any witness saying that GZ had his weapon drawn.

Again, these are only opinions, but I believe that the fact that he was armed with a concealed weapon enboldened him and I believe a Jury will think along those lines too - what do you think that GZ intended to do once he caught up with GZ? How was he going to make sure that Trayvon didn't get away until the police got there? I think these are things that the jury will consider when they are looking to who initially provoked the ultimate altercation.

To answer the bolded, I have seen nothing that convinces me that GZ wanted to do anything other than keep an eye on TM so when the police arrived, he could tell them exactly where he went. He did not want to let another suspected burglar get away. I see nothing in his past behavior to suggest he was likely to do anything beyond that.

CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:There is absolutely no credible evidence that GZ either tried to escape from Trayvon or that he withdrew from the altercation and clearly indicated his intent to withdraw from the altercation before firing the deadly shot killing Trayvon.
Twinkle wrote:How about the witness "John", who saw TM pinning GZ to the ground while beating him "MMA" style, while GZ was calling for help?

I don't believe that it was GZ yelling for help - I believe John is mistaken - other witnesses say it was Trayvon and IMO it makes more sense that it was Trayvon since the yelling stopped as soon as the gun was fired. Although we do not have GZ's statements, I don't believe anyone has indicated that he ever told Trayvon that he was the NWC, informed Trayvon that the police were on their way, or anything else that could have prevented the altercation.

From what I can determine, John appears to have had the best view of TM and GZ during their altercation; the others you are referring to appear to have been swayed by TM's age into thinking he must have been the one crying out, without having really had a good view of the altercation in progress. We already know that GZ doesn't have a particularly deep male voice, while it has been reported by Sybrina Fulton that TM's voice had already changed, and some who heard his voice on the 7-11 surveillance video said it was fairly deep. Also I think it makes sense that if GZ was the one crying out for help, once the gun was fired he would have stopped. There was no need to cry out for help once TM was shot and the physical fight abruptly ended.

I agree with you that we have no indication that GZ informed TM that he was the NWC, or that the police were coming. If indeed TM walked up to GZ and said something like "You got a problem?", that would have been a good opportunity to say "Hey, I'm with the neighborhood watch", etc., yet so far as we know, GZ does not claim to have done so. That certainly adds to his culpability in this matter. If he was going to get out of his car to track TM's movements, the least he could do, upon coming face to face with him, is inform him of those two important facts.

CherokeeNative wrote:You've brought up some good questions Twinkle and I appeciate the opportunity to point out that these are my theories - not set in stone. I will most likely change them as more evidence is presented.

Thanks :) I really admire your capability to openly discuss opposing views so gracefully, along with the way you have thought things through and produced a detailed theory of the prosecution's approach to this case.

by Freckles Sat May 19, 2012 11:34 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-witness-believes-intended-kid-die-204338831--abc-news-topstories.html;_ylt=At.qt5A8guuzbGjTJ.v0JjHyWed_;_ylu=X3oDMTUwMmIzamFwBGNjb2RlA2N0LmMEbWl0A0FydGljbGUgTW9zdCBQb3B1bGFyBHBrZwNhYWIxNzFjZS0yOWQzLTNlYTUtODE5Yy1iYTUyMjJhZDE3MTUEcG9zAzMEc2VjA01lZGlhQkxpc3RNaXhlZE1vc3RQb3B1bGFyQ0FUZW1wBHZlcgNhODMzNjI2NC1hMWMzLTExZTEtYjliZC03NGI1YzZjYjJmMzA-;_ylg=X3oDMTJvcTE0c2lyBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDZmM2MmI3NTgtY2JmZi0zZGM4LWJmNmItOTQ1MzhiMGU1YzdkBHBzdGNhdAN3b3JsZARwdANzdG9yeXBhZ2U-;_ylv=3

Trayvon Martin Witness Believes 'He Intended for This Kid to Die'

by Freckles Sat May 19, 2012 11:37 pm

Sharing a link. Tomorrow, at 9 AM CA time, a radio talk show host will be discussing the Trayvon case with specialists in law, etc.. If you would like to hear it on your computer, here is the link:

http://www.iheart.com/#/live/177/?autoplay=true

by Alessandra_Deux Sun May 20, 2012 12:09 am

Twinkle wrote:

~Snipped~

To answer the bolded, I have seen nothing that convinces me that GZ wanted to do anything other than keep an eye on TM so when the police arrived, he could tell them exactly where he went. He did not want to let another suspected burglar get away. I see nothing in his past behavior to suggest he was likely to do anything beyond that.

That is precisely the problem, Trayvon was not a suspected burglar, Zimmerman profiled him as a criminal and followed him, on foot, in the dark, behind the townhouses, to prevent him from "getting away", Zimmerman's decision to play the role of a law enforcement officer, which he is not, resulted in the death of Trayvon Martin. That is the reason why Zimmerman is facing a second degree murder charge.

by DebFrmHell Sun May 20, 2012 12:26 am

Twinkle wrote:
ellejay wrote:
Twinkle wrote:
snipped-----

2) She describes Trayvon running away from the strange creepy guy who was following him, then slowing to a walk after he lost him. At some point he says he doesn't need to run because he is close to his dad's house; this is before he spots GZ again. She says Trayvon sounded scared, yet tells her he isn't going to run because he is tired. After he sees GZ again, she describes Trayvon saying the man is getting closer and closer, yet still Trayvon won't run because he is...tired? Really? He was a young, healthy teenager; you wouldn't think he would be too tired to run when allegedly in fear of a mysterious stalker. I have a hard time imagining that the older, heavier, less fit GZ could run fast enough to catch up with TM, while TM was too tired to run away from him.

--where have you heard her say that trayvon was "tired"..? i haven't heard that before.

Here is the passage from a transcript of LE's interview with Trayvon's "girlfriend":

PROSECUTOR: So you could tell he was emotional, like somebody who was in fear?

GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.

PROSECUTOR: He was breathing hard?

GIRLFRIEND: He said he had lost him and he was breathing hard and I told him 'Keep running.'

PROSECUTOR: So Trayvon said he started walking because he thought he had lost the guy?

GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.

PROSECUTOR: OK.

GIRLFRIEND: I said, 'Keep running.' He said he ain’t gonna run. 'Cause he said he is right by his father's house. And then in a couple minutes he said the man is following him again. He’s behind him. I said, 'Run!' He said he was not going to run. I knew he was not going to run because he was out of breath. And then he was getting excited, the guy’s getting close to him. I told him, 'Run!' And I told him, 'Keep running!' He not going to run. I tell him, 'Why are you not running?' He said ’I’m not gonna.’ He was tired. I know he was tired.

PROSECUTOR: I am sorry, Trayvon said he was not running because—-he’s not going to run he said because you could tell he was tired? How could you tell he was tired?

GIRLFRIEND: He was breathing hard.

PROSECUTOR: Real hard?

GIRLFRIEND: Real hard. And then he told me this guy was getting close! He told me the guy was getting real close to him. And the next I hear is, 'Why are you following me for?'
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/5/18/i_know_he_was_scared_trayvon

Why is he breathing hard? He is in better shape than the pudgy GZ? And there is that couple of minutes mentioned where TM was out of sight from GZ. The same couple of minutes between the "he running" at approx 2:08 and the end of that call at slightly after 4:06?

'Why are you not running?' He said ’I’m not gonna.’

He sounds, just by the transcription, pissed and a little beligerent. Not saying I don't blame him for being mad but if he was close by Brandys house, why didn't he go inside, lock the doors and call 911. If those couple of minutes were coinciding with the non-911, GZ was still with his truck.

If he mistrusted the police in a place that he is not even familiar with, then why not just lock the doors until it was "safe."

Methinks she is not going to do the Prosecution a lot of favors. And I am willing to bet that even though MOM handles her carefully, as to not piss of the jurors, he will do damage to her testimony.

Thanks for that link BTW. I had all kinds of trouble trying to hear that whole thing.

by Alessandra_Deux Sun May 20, 2012 12:36 am

Very Interesting article:

Why Is Trayvon Martin Dead?

By: Masoninblue Saturday May 19, 2012 10:54 am

Cross posted from Frederick Leatherman Law Blog.

~Snipped~

Zimmerman’s Arrest

When Officer Smith arrived at the scene at 7:17 pm, a minute after the shooting, he saw Martin lying face down in the grass and Zimmerman standing nearby.

Zimmerman was not attempting to aid or provide CPR to Martin and there is no reference in Smith’s report to Zimmerman being upset or crying.

After retrieving Zimmerman’s gun and holster from inside his waistband, he arrested and handcuffed him with his hands behind his back and placed him in the back seat of his patrol vehicle.

Cool As A Cucumber

When an EMT checked Zimmerman in the patrol vehicle at 7:41 pm his pulse, blood pressure, and all of his vital signs were normal. Here is his report:

Assessment 1941 [7:41 pm]

Patient Conscious
Breathing Quality Adult Normal 12-20 [which is normal, not panting or out of breath]

No External Hemorrhage noted; Mucuous Membrane Normal

Central Body Color Normal

Extremities Normal

Within Normal Limits (Airway, Breathing Quality, Accessory Muscle Use, Chest Rise, Radial Pulse, Skin Temp, Skin Moisture [not sweating], Skin Turgor [not showing signs of dehydration], Cap Refill [blood circulation is normal], Pupil Size and Reaction.

[Or as Crane Station, a former RN says, He's cool as a cucumber, which seems unusual for a person who minutes earlier killed someone and is now under arrest while sitting in the rear seat of a police vehicle with his hands handcuffed behind his back ]

Cause of Injury [to Zimmerman]: Struck by blunt/thrown object. (9640) [Emphasis supplied]

Mechanism of Injury: Blunt

Patient says he was assaulted and his head was struck on the pavement.

Pt’s GCS = 15 [Glascow Coma Scale, which is a level of consciousness scale and 15 is normal] and he is warm and dry with normal skin color. Pt has abrasions to his forehead + bleeding/tenderness to his nose and a small laceration to the back of his head. All injuries have minor bleeding. Pt also denies LOC [loss of consciousness], neck/back pain, and he has + PMS [pulse motor sensory function] X 4 [in all extremeties] with – paresthesia [no tingling]

[That means his pulse, motor, and sensory functions were all okay and functioning normally]

Crane-Station’s Take

Crane-Station put it best,

How could a guy be talking to his girlfriend and killing somebody at the same time?

~Snipped~

Conclusion

Given Zimmerman’s state of mind and intent, I believe he was the aggressor and did not act in self-defense. I also believe he attacked Martin while Martin was talking to his girlfriend and Martin may have struck him with the cell phone several times in self-defense causing the injuries treated by the EMT.

http://my.firedoglake.com/mason/2012/05/19/why-is-trayvon-martin-dead/

by Hinky's Mimi Sun May 20, 2012 12:37 am

Freckles wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-witness-believes-intended-kid-die-204338831--abc-news-topstories.html;_ylt=At.qt5A8guuzbGjTJ.v0JjHyWed_;_ylu=X3oDMTUwMmIzamFwBGNjb2RlA2N0LmMEbWl0A0FydGljbGUgTW9zdCBQb3B1bGFyBHBrZwNhYWIxNzFjZS0yOWQzLTNlYTUtODE5Yy1iYTUyMjJhZDE3MTUEcG9zAzMEc2VjA01lZGlhQkxpc3RNaXhlZE1vc3RQb3B1bGFyQ0FUZW1wBHZlcgNhODMzNjI2NC1hMWMzLTExZTEtYjliZC03NGI1YzZjYjJmMzA-;_ylg=X3oDMTJvcTE0c2lyBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDZmM2MmI3NTgtY2JmZi0zZGM4LWJmNmItOTQ1MzhiMGU1YzdkBHBzdGNhdAN3b3JsZARwdANzdG9yeXBhZ2U-;_ylv=3

Trayvon Martin Witness Believes 'He Intended for This Kid to Die'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I agree with the witness because, at such close range, I can't believe the shot through the heart was an error. Had Zimmerman just shown Martin the gun, announced that he had a gun, or said that the police had been called and were on their way, I think the whole incident never would have happened. It happened, imo, because Martin was leery about a strange man who was following him that night. By following Martin, Zimmerman became a threat. I feel badly for Martin because he "stood his ground" but he wasn't carrying a gun so the law doesn't seem to apply to or protect him. Martin perceived Zimmerman to be a threat... and, it turns out he was 100% correct in his thinking.

by CherokeeNative Sun May 20, 2012 12:39 am

Twinkle wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:Nevertheless, GZ initiated contact with Trayvon and apparently attempted to detain him without waiting for police to arrive.
Twinkle wrote:[How do we know this? At the bond hearing, didn't Dale Gilbreath admit that they don't know who initiated the altercation? I don't think you can equate GZ leaving his car with initiating contact when GZ says he was only trying to see where TM went, then get an address to identify his location, unless the prosecutors have evidence to show that he is lying. Based on what Gilbreath said, it doesn't sound like they do.

By initiate contact and detain - I am meaning face to face contact not physical, and I am taking this from the girlfriend's statement - as well as GZ's statement as represented by the GZ camp: The discussion of "Why are you following me" and "What are you doing here."
1 Thanks for explaining your thoughts on this. I would just add that the GZ version of events, as best we can determine without having seen his statements, is that he was walking back to his car when TM initiated contact with him and then punched him. So I don't think the GZ version of events bolsters the girlfriend's statement, unless there is something quite different in his statements from what we've been hearing from his father, brother, and other sources reporting what the police have said. But it is true that the version of GZ's story we've heard and the "girlfriend"s account have in common GZ and TM abruptly coming face to face and exchanging words before ending up in a physical altercation.

CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:A witness' statement saw the two in a chase away from the direction of Trayvon's destination.
Twinkle wrote:That particular witness statement is pretty nebulous. If I were on a jury, I surely would not convict for second degree murder based on that.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. But the jury will not be convicting on this witness alone - it will be the accumulation of facts and evidence that will convict.
2 True, but if you discount this testimony, what is left to establish that GZ was chasing TM? I guess there is still the "girlfriend"'s testimony. However, her description of TM being "close by" his father's house, with GZ following and closing the distance behind him, doesn't really mesh well with that witness's testimony, which as I understand it has two people running in the opposite direction, away from Brandy Green's home.

CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:We have yet to learn whether GZ had his gun drawn, or whether Trayvon had otherwise become aware of the gun - although GZ's dad says he did - in which case, it would be reasonable for Trayvon to use deadly force in self-defense by bashing GZ's head into the concrete.

Twinkle wrote:I would think if GZ approached TM with his gun drawn, it would be highly unlikely for the two to end up fighting on the ground, with TM on top beating up GZ "MMA style.

Again, we all have our theories at this point - I would think it took something to set Trayvon off - either he saw the gun, or GZ tried taking hold of him or something to cause him to throw a punch. But we are all entitled to our theories and opinions.

3 Very true. At this point I admittedly have no idea what would have set Trayvon off enough to throw the first punch, beyond the fact that he understandably would not appreciate someone watching and seemingly stalking him.

CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:GZ's conduct in exiting his vehicle while armed with a gun and following Trayvon is sufficient to "initially provoke" the ensuing struggle, no matter who struck the first blow.

Twinkle wrote:IMO not necessarily. Though I happen to think GZ should have stayed in his vehicle, I don't see why the fact that he left his vehicle should be provocation for an attack from TM. And since it was a concealed weapon, TM would have had no way to know GZ was armed unless GZ was brandishing the weapon. So far as I know, the prosecutors do not have any witness saying that GZ had his weapon drawn.

Again, these are only opinions, but I believe that the fact that he was armed with a concealed weapon enboldened him and I believe a Jury will think along those lines too - what do you think that GZ intended to do once he caught up with GZ? How was he going to make sure that Trayvon didn't get away until the police got there? I think these are things that the jury will consider when they are looking to who initially provoked the ultimate altercation.
4 To answer the bolded, I have seen nothing that convinces me that GZ wanted to do anything other than keep an eye on TM so when the police arrived, he could tell them exactly where he went. He did not want to let another suspected burglar get away. I see nothing in his past behavior to suggest he was likely to do anything beyond that.

CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:There is absolutely no credible evidence that GZ either tried to escape from Trayvon or that he withdrew from the altercation and clearly indicated his intent to withdraw from the altercation before firing the deadly shot killing Trayvon.
Twinkle wrote:How about the witness "John", who saw TM pinning GZ to the ground while beating him "MMA" style, while GZ was calling for help?

I don't believe that it was GZ yelling for help - I believe John is mistaken - other witnesses say it was Trayvon and IMO it makes more sense that it was Trayvon since the yelling stopped as soon as the gun was fired. Although we do not have GZ's statements, I don't believe anyone has indicated that he ever told Trayvon that he was the NWC, informed Trayvon that the police were on their way, or anything else that could have prevented the altercation.
5 From what I can determine, John appears to have had the best view of TM and GZ during their altercation; the others you are referring to appear to have been swayed by TM's age into thinking he must have been the one crying out, without having really had a good view of the altercation in progress. We already know that GZ doesn't have a particularly deep male voice, while it has been reported by Sybrina Fulton that TM's voice had already changed, and some who heard his voice on the 7-11 surveillance video said it was fairly deep. Also I think it makes sense that if GZ was the one crying out for help, once the gun was fired he would have stopped. There was no need to cry out for help once TM was shot and the physical fight abruptly ended.

I agree with you that we have no indication that GZ informed TM that he was the NWC, or that the police were coming. If indeed TM walked up to GZ and said something like "You got a problem?", that would have been a good opportunity to say "Hey, I'm with the neighborhood watch", etc., yet so far as we know, GZ does not claim to have done so. That certainly adds to his culpability in this matter. If he was going to get out of his car to track TM's movements, the least he could do, upon coming face to face with him, is inform him of those two important facts.

CherokeeNative wrote:You've brought up some good questions Twinkle and I appeciate the opportunity to point out that these are my theories - not set in stone. I will most likely change them as more evidence is presented.
Thanks :) I really admire your capability to openly discuss opposing views so gracefully, along with the way you have thought things through and produced a detailed theory of the prosecution's approach to this case.

2

B & # BM
1. GZ's versions of events "mesh" with the girlfriend's to the extent that they both indicated that there was a verbal exchange - albeit the GZ camp had the words a little different - I chose to use the girlfriend's over the GZ camp since she was an actual witness to the conversation.

2. Why would I discount this witness's testimony? Obviously, the prosecutor isn't since they listed her as a witness. Remember though, I am not trying to convince you - I shared with you what I believe will be the State's theory - you are certainly free to develop your own theory.

3. So we agree that if it is true that Trayvon punched GZ, something most likely caused him to do that. My theory is he either saw the gun, or GZ attempted to detain him by taking hold of him or something similar.

4. Why did he take the gun with him then? He knew that it was against NWP policy. He either took it to use or for security in the event he needed. So it emboldened him.

5. This is just your opinion based upon how you are weighing the facts and evidence. Each of us, like a juror, will weigh the facts and evidence differently. I choose to believe the other witnesses over John's for some reason, and I don't have an excuse...it's my gut feeling.

I think you are forgetting that this is just what I believe the prosecutor's theory will be given the evidence that we have seen. You may have an entirely different theory based upon the same facts and evidence, and that is fine. I was just sharing how I reconciled in my mind how the State was going to present this case to the jury. I will most likely change and/or tweek it as more evidence is released. That's the beauty of having an opinion.

I enjoy that someone has taken the time to read and question me on what I am thinking. I would be interested in seeing how you think this case will be presented. Very Happy

by Freckles Sun May 20, 2012 12:49 am

Alessandra:
Two scenarios:
Innocent-
GZ was being "harassed" by TM (as TM was winding his way to the condo in the rain after being at the store):
Would he not have said to the arriving officers, " This guy, he was unbelievable! I called the station about him! He started threatening me and pushing me around!! He knocked me to the ground and I had no choice, man. I had no choice!!! I mean, I had the gun and he tried to grab it!! He was sitting on my chest beating my head into the ground! I just wanted to make sure he wasn't one of those punks causing problems here!! I don't know what I could have done differently!"

Or:
Guilty-
GZ thinking to himself, "I know I may be in big trouble. I just won't say anything. At the station, I will tell them TM jumped me, threatened me. He is one of the punks I have seen hanging out and causing problems. "

by Freckles Sun May 20, 2012 12:55 am

CN-
IMO, Trayvon MAY have stepped off to the side to prevent GZ from knowing where he was going. GZ cut him off and demanded to know who he was, where he was going and he may have been shining the flashlight in TM's eyes (emulating a cop); TM was indigent (and probably felt threatened) and refused to answer the stranger who was interrupting his walk. At this point, IMO, GZ pulled the gun to try to intimidate TM. TM, at that point, may have responded with the push landing them both on the ground.

I do think TM started yelling "Help! Help!" when he realized GZ had the upper hand, had a gun, and was going to kill him.

by CherokeeNative Sun May 20, 2012 1:06 am

Freckles wrote:CN-
IMO, Trayvon MAY have stepped off to the side to prevent GZ from knowing where he was going. GZ cut him off and demanded to know who he was, where he was going and he may have been shining the flashlight in TM's eyes (emulating a cop); TM was indigent (and probably felt threatened) and refused to answer the stranger who was interrupting his walk. At this point, IMO, GZ pulled the gun to try to intimidate TM. TM, at that point, may have responded with the push landing them both on the ground.

I do think TM started yelling "Help! Help!" when he realized GZ had the upper hand, had a gun, and was going to kill him.

Freckles - I have said all along I believe that GZ managed to pass Trayvon by running along the front side of the townhomes and then crossing over and cutting him off - that he had his gun drawn at some point prior to the ground altercation - and that he had his flash light on at the time he confronted Trayvon...so your scenario is very close to what I was speculating. (Brilliant minds think alike) Now that we have the document dump, I don't see anything that supports that theory - In fact, I was worried about how the prosecutor was even going to present a Murder2 case out of what we have - so my earlier post today was merely a script, using what we have, to see how the prosecutor might present the case to the jury. And in my mind, it works. Now that I know there is a lot more to be seen, I would not be surprised if we are both right - then again, we may never know.

by Hinky's Mimi Sun May 20, 2012 1:12 am

CherokeeNative wrote:
3. So we agree that if it is true that Trayvon punched GZ, something most likely caused him to do that. My theory is he either saw the gun, or GZ attempted to detain him by taking hold of him or something similar.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just addressing this one point from your message. I agree with you because:

Through counsel for Martin’s parents, she provided a statement in which she said Trayvon expressed concern about a man following him. She told him to run. Then she heard Martin say,

"What are you following me for?"

This was followed by a man’s voice responding,

"What are you doing here?"

She said that she heard the sound of pushing and then Trayvon said,

"Get off me, get off me."

This exchange indicates to me that Zimmerman put his hands on Martin first. I believe the girlfriend's statement.
Edited to add; In fact, the expression "get off me" indicates to me that it was more than just "putting his hands" on Martin.

above snipped from article posted by Freckles above:

http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-witness-believes-intended-kid-die-204338831--abc-news-topstories.html;_ylt=At.qt5A8guuzbGjTJ.v0JjHyWed_;_ylu=X3oDMTUwMmIzamFwBGNjb2RlA2N0LmMEbWl0A0FydGljbGUgTW9zdCBQb3B1bGFyBHBrZwNhYWIxNzFjZS0yOWQzLTNlYTUtODE5Yy1iYTUyMjJhZDE3MTUEcG9zAzMEc2VjA01lZGlhQkxpc3RNaXhlZE1vc3RQb3B1bGFyQ0FUZW1wBHZlcgNhODMzNjI2NC1hMWMzLTExZTEtYjliZC03NGI1YzZjYjJmMzA-;_ylg=X3oDMTJvcTE0c2lyBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDZmM2MmI3NTgtY2JmZi0zZGM4LWJmNmItOTQ1MzhiMGU1YzdkBHBzdGNhdAN3b3JsZARwdANzdG9yeXBhZ2U-;_ylv=3

by DebFrmHell Sun May 20, 2012 1:22 am

Hey now...where did my post go?

Judging from the Crime Scene Photos taken that night...
At the T Intersection of the sidewalks...

Evidence Marker #1
The Black MiniMag is near the Doggie Station.

Evidence Marker #5
GZs car keys with the small flashlight are across the side walk and down a couple of feet.

So if you have a flashlight in one hand and a set of keys in the other, where is the gun?

by CherokeeNative Sun May 20, 2012 1:31 am

DebFrmHell wrote:Hey now...where did my post go?

Judging from the Crime Scene Photos taken that night...
At the T Intersection of the sidewalks...

Evidence Marker #1
The Black MiniMag is near the Doggie Station.

Evidence Marker #5
GZs car keys with the small flashlight are across the side walk and down a couple of feet.

So if you have a flashlight in one hand and a set of keys in the other, where is the gun?

Well, the keys could have been in GZ's coat pocket and fell out; or visa versa with the flashlight. I believe the gun was out of its holster - I think he had it in hand - but if not, he had it in his coat pocket or just tucked into his waist band. And the reason I say that Deb is because (1) I think GZ either had the gun drawn or he took hold of Trayvon during the initial confrontation (before the chase) and that's why Trayvon punched him; (2) the gun had to be somewhere other than the holster because with Trayvon sitting on him, he could not have managed to get that gun out of its holster while fighting off Trayvon...JMHO Very Happy

by CherokeeNative Sun May 20, 2012 1:46 am

Just a thought - the guy on HausofGuns video said there was a spot on the barrell of the gun where you could attach a scope or flashlight IIRC - could GZ have had his flashlight attached to that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVzqnxKfZ74&feature=related

by DebFrmHell Sun May 20, 2012 1:54 am

I will be the one in purple!

Twinkle wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:Nevertheless, GZ initiated contact with Trayvon and apparently attempted to detain him without waiting for police to arrive.
Twinkle wrote:[How do we know this? At the bond hearing, didn't Dale Gilbreath admit that they don't know who initiated the altercation? I don't think you can equate GZ leaving his car with initiating contact when GZ says he was only trying to see where TM went, then get an address to identify his location, unless the prosecutors have evidence to show that he is lying. Based on what Gilbreath said, it doesn't sound like they do.

If GZ initiated that conversation, why did TM ask first "What are you following me for?"

By initiate contact and detain - I am meaning face to face contact not physical, and I am taking this from the girlfriend's statement - as well as GZ's statement as represented by the GZ camp: The discussion of "Why are you following me" and "What are you doing here."

Thanks for explaining your thoughts on this. I would just add that the GZ version of events, as best we can determine without having seen his statements, is that he was walking back to his car (see evidence markers. It certainly does lend credence to the fact that GZ may have been going back to his car) when TM initiated contact with him and then punched him. So I don't think the GZ version of events bolsters the girlfriend's statement, unless there is something quite different in his statements from what we've been hearing from his father, brother, and other sources reporting what the police have said. But it is true that the version of GZ's story we've heard and the "girlfriend"s account have in common GZ and TM abruptly coming face to face and exchanging words before ending up in a physical altercation.

CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:A witness' statement saw the two in a chase away from the direction of Trayvon's destination.
Twinkle wrote:That particular witness statement is pretty nebulous. If I were on a jury, I surely would not convict for second degree murder based on that.

I still think that it is just as likely that a PO'd TM could have been chasing down GZ. Seeing two people (not man, not woman, no description of clothing apparel, not one distinguishing feature) move past your window do not automatically mean that GZ was chasing down TM.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. But the jury will not be convicting on this witness alone - it will be the accumulation of facts and evidence that will convict.
True, but if you discount this testimony, what is left to establish that GZ was chasing TM? I guess there is still the "girlfriend"'s testimony. However, her description of TM being "close by" his father's house, with GZ following and closing the distance behind him, doesn't really mesh well with that witness's testimony, which as I understand it has two people running in the opposite direction, away from Brandy Green's home.

CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:We have yet to learn whether GZ had his gun drawn, or whether Trayvon had otherwise become aware of the gun - although GZ's dad says he did - in which case, it would be reasonable for Trayvon to use deadly force in self-defense by bashing GZ's head into the concrete.

Twinkle wrote:I would think if GZ approached TM with his gun drawn, it would be highly unlikely for the two to end up fighting on the ground, with TM on top beating up GZ "MMA style.

See my post using the actual evidence markers...

Again, we all have our theories at this point - I would think it took something to set Trayvon off - either he saw the gun, or GZ tried taking hold of him or something to cause him to throw a punch. But we are all entitled to our theories and opinions.

Very true. At this point I admittedly have no idea what would have set Trayvon off enough to throw the first punch, beyond the fact that he understandably would not appreciate someone watching and seemingly stalking him.

CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:GZ's conduct in exiting his vehicle while armed with a gun and following Trayvon is sufficient to "initially provoke" the ensuing struggle, no matter who struck the first blow.

Twinkle wrote:IMO not necessarily. Though I happen to think GZ should have stayed in his vehicle, I don't see why the fact that he left his vehicle should be provocation for an attack from TM. And since it was a concealed weapon, TM would have had no way to know GZ was armed unless GZ was brandishing the weapon. So far as I know, the prosecutors do not have any witness saying that GZ had his weapon drawn.

Again, these are only opinions, but I believe that the fact that he was armed with a concealed weapon enboldened him and I believe a Jury will think along those lines too - what do you think that GZ intended to do once he caught up with GZ? How was he going to make sure that Trayvon didn't get away until the police got there? I think these are things that the jury will consider when they are looking to who initially provoked the ultimate altercation.
To answer the bolded, I have seen nothing that convinces me that GZ wanted to do anything other than keep an eye on TM so when the police arrived, he could tell them exactly where he went. He did not want to let another suspected burglar get away. I see nothing in his past behavior to suggest he was likely to do anything beyond that.

CherokeeNative wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:There is absolutely no credible evidence that GZ either tried to escape from Trayvon or that he withdrew from the altercation and clearly indicated his intent to withdraw from the altercation before firing the deadly shot killing Trayvon.

If the altercation started on the cement and wound up in the grass, perhaps GZ was not only going for self-preservation but trying to get away from TM?

Twinkle wrote:How about the witness "John", who saw TM pinning GZ to the ground while beating him "MMA" style, while GZ was calling for help?

I don't believe that it was GZ yelling for help - I believe John is mistaken - other witnesses say it was Trayvon and IMO it makes more sense that it was Trayvon since the yelling stopped as soon as the gun was fired. Although we do not have GZ's statements, I don't believe anyone has indicated that he ever told Trayvon that he was the NWC, informed Trayvon that the police were on their way, or anything else that could have prevented the altercation.

John is the closest witness. He is the one who told them to stop. He told them both he was calling 911.

From what I can determine, John appears to have had the best view of TM and GZ during their altercation; the others you are referring to appear to have been swayed by TM's age into thinking he must have been the one crying out, without having really had a good view of the altercation in progress. We already know that GZ doesn't have a particularly deep male voice, while it has been reported by Sybrina Fulton that TM's voice had already changed, and some who heard his voice on the 7-11 surveillance video said it was fairly deep. Also I think it makes sense that if GZ was the one crying out for help, once the gun was fired he would have stopped. There was no need to cry out for help once TM was shot and the physical fight abruptly ended.

Even the supposed GF of TM said in her statement that his voice got lower. I think she attributed it to fear. The FBI couldn't determine the voices because of the level of stress and poor audio recording.

I agree with you that we have no indication that GZ informed TM that he was the NWC, or that the police were coming. If indeed TM walked up to GZ and said something like "You got a problem?", that would have been a good opportunity to say "Hey, I'm with the neighborhood watch", etc., yet so far as we know, GZ does not claim to have done so. That certainly adds to his culpability in this matter. If he was going to get out of his car to track TM's movements, the least he could do, upon coming face to face with him, is inform him of those two important facts.

CherokeeNative wrote:You've brought up some good questions Twinkle and I appeciate the opportunity to point out that these are my theories - not set in stone. I will most likely change them as more evidence is presented.
Thanks :) I really admire your capability to openly discuss opposing views so gracefully, along with the way you have thought things through and produced a detailed theory of the prosecution's approach to this case.

And I still want to know about those two minutes... Not only have I remarked about it on more than one occasion, even the Not-Quite-A-GF alluded to it in her statement that took weeks to get. LOL!

That would be a no, IMO, on the flashlight attached to the gun.

by Freckles Sun May 20, 2012 2:00 am

Whoa. This is a bit different:
" Based on the 2 inch X 2 inch smoke ring with stippling around the 3/8 inch entry wound, Dr. Vincent J.D. di Maio, the former Medical Examiner for Bexar County (San Antonio) estimated that the muzzle of the gun was 2 to 4 inches from Trayvon’s chest when Zimmerman fired the fatal shot."

http://my.firedoglake.com/mason/2012/05/19/why-is-trayvon-martin-dead/

by Freckles Sun May 20, 2012 2:06 am

CherokeeNative wrote:
Freckles wrote:CN-
IMO, Trayvon MAY have stepped off to the side to prevent GZ from knowing where he was going. GZ cut him off and demanded to know who he was, where he was going and he may have been shining the flashlight in TM's eyes (emulating a cop); TM was indigent (and probably felt threatened) and refused to answer the stranger who was interrupting his walk. At this point, IMO, GZ pulled the gun to try to intimidate TM. TM, at that point, may have responded with the push landing them both on the ground.

I do think TM started yelling "Help! Help!" when he realized GZ had the upper hand, had a gun, and was going to kill him.

Freckles - I have said all along I believe that GZ managed to pass Trayvon by running along the front side of the townhomes and then crossing over and cutting him off - that he had his gun drawn at some point prior to the ground altercation - and that he had his flash light on at the time he confronted Trayvon...so your scenario is very close to what I was speculating. (Brilliant minds think alike) Now that we have the document dump, I don't see anything that supports that theory - In fact, I was worried about how the prosecutor was even going to present a Murder2 case out of what we have - so my earlier post today was merely a script, using what we have, to see how the prosecutor might present the case to the jury. And in my mind, it works. Now that I know there is a lot more to be seen, I would not be surprised if we are both right - then again, we may never know.

I know you have! lol In may way of thinking, GZ may have circled to the cut out and back tracked catching TM off guard OR TM may have stepped off to the side, slowing his walk as he wanted to know WHY he was being followed; after all, he did not want the lurker to know where he was going, he had done nothing wrong and was not going to run. TM NEEDED for the other person to leave so he could safely go to where the 14 year old was alone and unprotected.

Either way. Perhaps, both--- TM stepped off to the side and GZ went to the cutoff and back tracked to confront TM.

by Alessandra_Deux Sun May 20, 2012 2:50 am

Freckles wrote:
CherokeeNative wrote:
Freckles wrote:CN-
IMO, Trayvon MAY have stepped off to the side to prevent GZ from knowing where he was going. GZ cut him off and demanded to know who he was, where he was going and he may have been shining the flashlight in TM's eyes (emulating a cop); TM was indigent (and probably felt threatened) and refused to answer the stranger who was interrupting his walk. At this point, IMO, GZ pulled the gun to try to intimidate TM. TM, at that point, may have responded with the push landing them both on the ground.

I do think TM started yelling "Help! Help!" when he realized GZ had the upper hand, had a gun, and was going to kill him.

Freckles - I have said all along I believe that GZ managed to pass Trayvon by running along the front side of the townhomes and then crossing over and cutting him off - that he had his gun drawn at some point prior to the ground altercation - and that he had his flash light on at the time he confronted Trayvon...so your scenario is very close to what I was speculating. (Brilliant minds think alike) Now that we have the document dump, I don't see anything that supports that theory - In fact, I was worried about how the prosecutor was even going to present a Murder2 case out of what we have - so my earlier post today was merely a script, using what we have, to see how the prosecutor might present the case to the jury. And in my mind, it works. Now that I know there is a lot more to be seen, I would not be surprised if we are both right - then again, we may never know.
I know you have! lol In may way of thinking, GZ may have circled to the cut out and back tracked catching TM off guard OR TM may have stepped off to the side, slowing his walk as he wanted to know WHY he was being followed; after all, he did not want the lurker to know where he was going, he had done nothing wrong and was not going to run. TM NEEDED for the other person to leave so he could safely go to where the 14 year old was alone and unprotected.

Either way. Perhaps, both--- TM stepped off to the side and GZ went to the cutoff and back tracked to confront TM.

I think that Trayvon almost made to Brandy's house. I wonder how far, or how close, from Brandy's house is the house of the witness who told the police that she saw a man pursuing another man toward the cut-through (T).

I believe that Zimmerman went through one of the passageways between the townhouses into the backyard area to cut Trayvon off from his intended destination. Trayvon was on his way home when Zimmerman intercepted him.

I think it was Zimmerman who was chasing after Trayvon, Zimmerman had a gun, I don't believe that he was the one who was trying to run away.

by Gizmo711 Sun May 20, 2012 6:41 am

Alessandra_Deux wrote:
Twinkle wrote:

~Snipped~

To answer the bolded, I have seen nothing that convinces me that GZ wanted to do anything other than keep an eye on TM so when the police arrived, he could tell them exactly where he went. He did not want to let another suspected burglar get away. I see nothing in his past behavior to suggest he was likely to do anything beyond that.

That is precisely the problem, Trayvon was not a suspected burglar, Zimmerman profiled him as a criminal and followed him, on foot, in the dark, behind the townhouses, to prevent him from "getting away", Zimmerman's decision to play the role of a law enforcement officer, which he is not, resulted in the death of Trayvon Martin. That is the reason why Zimmerman is facing a second degree murder charge.

Exactly.....If Zimmerman wanted nothing more than to keep an eye on Trayvon, why carry a loaded gun? If Zimmerman only wanted to hold Trayvon there until the police arrived (which he had no business doing) why not just show a gun that is NOT loaded. If Zimmerman just wanted to hold Trayvon there until the police came, why did he (using two hands) cock the gun, if he had no intentions of killing Trayvon? I'll tell you why, because Zimmerman was just SO SURE that he had finally captured a bad guy (so he thought in his warped mind) that he shot for the kill. In Zimmermans sick warped mind he probably thought that he would be given a parade in his honour for ridding society of this bad guy.

As far as who thru the first punch, I really don't think it will matter in a case like this. It will all fall to what ever actual evidence that they have in the minute leading up to the altercation, the 911 calls, Zimmerman carrying a loaded gun to follow what he thought was a suspect, and this supposedly suspect ends up dead just 60 seconds between the PROVEN phone call and the police arriving, whereas this so called suspect was carrying nothing more than a can if ice tea and a bag of skittles. As for whose word that the jury will or should take will/should not fall into play seeing as the INNOCENT guy that was being followed, is no longer here to defend himself, he defended himself for the last time before being shot dead.

by Gizmo711 Sun May 20, 2012 6:45 am

Freckles wrote:CN-
IMO, Trayvon MAY have stepped off to the side to prevent GZ from knowing where he was going. GZ cut him off and demanded to know who he was, where he was going and he may have been shining the flashlight in TM's eyes (emulating a cop); TM was indigent (and probably felt threatened) and refused to answer the stranger who was interrupting his walk. At this point, IMO, GZ pulled the gun to try to intimidate TM. TM, at that point, may have responded with the push landing them both on the ground.

I do think TM started yelling "Help! Help!" when he realized GZ had the upper hand, had a gun, and was going to kill him.

I also believe that....The only way someone would scream like that (especially a teenager) would be if he saw his death coming. They were not screams of a man who was holding a loaded 9mm in his hands....

by Gizmo711 Sun May 20, 2012 6:49 am

DebFrmHell wrote:Hey now...where did my post go?

Judging from the Crime Scene Photos taken that night...
At the T Intersection of the sidewalks...

Evidence Marker #1
The Black MiniMag is near the Doggie Station.

Evidence Marker #5
GZs car keys with the small flashlight are across the side walk and down a couple of feet.

So if you have a flashlight in one hand and a set of keys in the other, where is the gun?

We all know where the gun was for sure, in Zimmermans hand ready to be fired. We really don't know where his keys were, they may very well have fallen out of his pocket or he had them in the same hand as the flashlight. But one thing is for SURE, Zimmerman was holding the gun that shot Trayvon.

by Gizmo711 Sun May 20, 2012 6:53 am

Freckles wrote:Whoa. This is a bit different:
" Based on the 2 inch X 2 inch smoke ring with stippling around the 3/8 inch entry wound, Dr. Vincent J.D. di Maio, the former Medical Examiner for Bexar County (San Antonio) estimated that the muzzle of the gun was 2 to 4 inches from Trayvon’s chest when Zimmerman fired the fatal shot."

http://my.firedoglake.com/mason/2012/05/19/why-is-trayvon-martin-dead/

Not for anything but after the CA case, I wouldn't take di Maio's word for anything, no more than I would take Henry Lee. They both would only say what they think will bring them a higher price.

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