George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

I am presuming, after having read the rules and regulations that I am allowed to start a thread concerning the George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin case. As a newbie, please forgive me if I haven't done this correctly and feel free to delete this new topic.

I am hoping that longtime THM members such as KZ, KWest, DebfromHell, and our renouned keeper of records ElleJay will join us here at RC. With a document dump expected in the next week or so, we will need them to help sort through it all.

Interesting article - Some donars to GZ's defense intend to make monthly donations.

The mother of slain Florida teenager Trayvon Martin will be able to take about eight months of paid leave from her county job, thanks to the generosity of county employees.

Sybrina Fulton, who has worked at the Miami-Dade County housing authority for 23 years, collected $40,825 worth of donated vacation time, county records show. The paid time off is in addition to the nearly $100,000 the family raised on wepay.com and at rallies, which will be used to launch a criminal justice advocacy foundation in Trayvon's name.

***
O'Mara recently created a new fundraising site administered by a former IRS agent and registered with the Florida Division of Consumer Services. He told ABC News that he raised nearly $8,000 in the first few days the site was active.

"I'm not going to be unrealistic to the fact that everyone is seeking donations in relation to this case, including the Trayvon Martin family," O'Mara said at a recent press conference. "It seems as though we have become in this criminal justice system a system where we can ask other people to help us. That's what we are doing."

The fund now also includes the $150,000 balance transferred from the original PayPal account Zimmerman had set up.

In a statement on his website, O'Mara said Zimmerman spent $7,000 on PayPal fees, $5,000 on bond, and $1,000 at the jail commissary and for phone cards. He also paid off existing debts and set up a secure living quarters while he awaits trial, the statement said, without offering dollar figures.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/05/12/3607594/families-of-trayvon-martin-george.html#storylink=cpy

Well folks, I keep adding things that I think might be of interest to start a topic of discussion until we get our document dump. There isn't much "new" to arouse interest. So far, I have been unsuccessful I'm definitely not Val. But I will give one last try at at starting a discussion:

For those interested, it appears that under the sunshine laws, once the discovery is provided to the defense, it must also be turned over to the public, as it loses its exempt status as criminal intelligence or investigative information unless the Court has issued an order that the discovery may be withheld under one of the following circumstances:

1) If the information would reveal the identity of a victim of a sexual offense or child abuse pursuant to s. 119.071(2)(h), F.S.; or

2) If a court order has been issued finding that release of the information prior to trial would:

a) be defamatory to the good name of a victim or witness or jeopardize the safety of a victim or witness; and

b) impair the ability of a state attorney to locate or prosecute a codefendant.

It would appear to me that if O'Mara wants to withhold the discovery from being released to the public until he has time to review it and decide whether additional redactions need to be made over and above what the State has redacted, he would need to file a motion seeking an order in advance of the discovery being turned over to him. Will we see a motion Monday morning?

For more info, see: http://www.myflsunshine.com/sun.nsf/manual/1BB05D142D8E4724852566F3006C7A1A

I've been away for a while so don't know what is happening with this case. Hope ppl have calmed down somewhat and are allowing the case to be dealt with within the system rather than through the media.

CherokeeNative wrote:Well folks, I keep adding things that I think might be of interest to start a topic of discussion until we get our document dump. There isn't much "new" to arouse interest. So far, I have been unsuccessful I'm definitely not Val. But I will give one last try at at starting a discussion:

For those interested, it appears that under the sunshine laws, once the discovery is provided to the defense, it must also be turned over to the public, as it loses its exempt status as criminal intelligence or investigative information unless the Court has issued an order that the discovery may be withheld under one of the following circumstances:

1) If the information would reveal the identity of a victim of a sexual offense or child abuse pursuant to s. 119.071(2)(h), F.S.; or

2) If a court order has been issued finding that release of the information prior to trial would:

a) be defamatory to the good name of a victim or witness or jeopardize the safety of a victim or witness; and

b) impair the ability of a state attorney to locate or prosecute a codefendant.

It would appear to me that if O'Mara wants to withhold the discovery from being released to the public until he has time to review it and decide whether additional redactions need to be made over and above what the State has redacted, he would need to file a motion seeking an order in advance of the discovery being turned over to him. Will we see a motion Monday morning?

For more info, see: http://www.myflsunshine.com/sun.nsf/manual/1BB05D142D8E4724852566F3006C7A1A

You are correct...I am hoping that the judge wont allow the doc's to be surpressed. If he doesn't, than we will see the first batch sometime today.

derisory wrote:I've been away for a while so don't know what is happening with this case. Hope ppl have calmed down somewhat and are allowing the case to be dealt with within the system rather than through the media.

I'm not for any case being dealt with thru the media. But thank goodness for the media, or we would never know anything about such cases and everything would be swept under the carpet.

ITA Gizzmo. Everyone would have just kept on about their merry lives less one Trayvon Martin walking this earth. I do agree that the witnesses and their addresses should be redacted, but that is about it.

Gizmo711 wrote:

derisory wrote:I've been away for a while so don't know what is happening with this case. Hope ppl have calmed down somewhat and are allowing the case to be dealt with within the system rather than through the media.

I'm not for any case being dealt with thru the media. But thank goodness for the media, or we would never know anything about such cases and everything would be swept under the carpet.

Hi Gizmo711,

I totally agree with you.

“The free exchange of information between the government and the people who create that government, the people who elect that government, is absolutely crucial to the democratic process. One of our greatest freedoms is to have a right to know what our government is doing.” -- Courtney Cox, a Benton, Ill. attorney who won an appellate court ruling affirming that a FOIA requester is not required to explain why the information is being sought, 2005.

“With the passage of the FOIA, the burden of proof shifted from the individual to the government. Those seeking information are no longer required to show a need for information. Instead, the `need to know' standard has been replaced by a `right to know' doctrine. The government now has to justify the need for secrecy.” -- Introduction to the Citizens Guide on Using the Freedom of Information Act, published by the House Committee on Government Reform, September 2005

After Trayvon Martin: Is It Time to End Racial Profiling?

by Miranda Green May 13, 2012 4:45 AM EDT

The Trayvon Martin case has suddenly revived efforts in Congress to ban racial profiling. Miranda Green on whether a federal law is needed—or will hamstring cops.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/05/13/after-trayvon-martin-is-it-time-to-end-racial-profiling.html

05/13/2012

A Mother's Day Message From Trayvon's Mom: VIDEO

http://www.towleroad.com/2012/05/a-mothers-day-message-from-trayvons-mom-video.html

Trayvon Martin shooting targets pulled as mother calls for US gun law review

George Zimmerman's attorney condemns product after seller says he wanted 'to make money off the controversy' in Florida

Matt Williams in New York
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 13 May 2012 14.19 EDT

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/13/trayvon-martin-shooting-targets-sold?newsfeed=true

Trayvon Martin petition site Change.org comes to UK

Website that teenager's mother used to bring his case to world attention says it has 'structure of a business but non-profit ethos'

Alexandra Topping
The Guardian, Sunday 13 May 2012

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/may/14/trayvon-epetition-website-changeorg-launches-uk#start-of-comments

George Zimmerman defense to get new evidence today

By Bakari Savage, Reporter
Last Updated: Monday, May 14, 2012 @ 07:10AM

SANFORD --
George Zimmerman's attorney is expected to get a look at some of the prosecution's key evidence against his client Monday.

But the public may not get a look at any of it -- at least not yet.

Zimmerman has been charged with second-degree murder for shooting and killing 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in February. Zimmerman has claimed he shot the teen in self-defense, but state prosecutors said the evidence they have collected suggests otherwise.

Normally, such evidence would be made public right away, but attorney Mark O'Mara said he wants to redact some of that information first.

O'Mara said he is trying to do what's best for his client, and he believes the only way for Zimmerman to get a fair trial is to not release the names of witnesses.


According to Zimmerman's attorney, making those names public would put witnesses out there to be hounded by the media. O'Mara said he feels that could jeopardize his client's trial.

O'Mara is expected to file a motion in court Monday to stop the public release of the evidence, so he can redact witnesses' names first.


This is a developing story. Check back and refresh this article for the latest updates.

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/5/14/george_zimmerman_doc.html

Zimmerman's lawyer to get first look at evidence today

By Rene Stutzman and Jeff Weiner, Orlando Sentinel

8:38 a.m. EDT, May 14, 2012


SANFORD – Who gets to see the evidence against George Zimmerman, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer awaiting trial on a charge of second-degree murder? Today, that will likely become a point of dispute between lawyers in the case and the most powerful news companies in the country.

Defense attorney Mark O'Mara has said he expects to get his first look at the evidence today. He has also warned that he will likely file paperwork, asking the judge to keep key elements from everyone else.

If he does, lawyers for the Orlando Sentinel, The New York Times, NBC, CBS, CNN and more than a half dozen other news organizations are expected to weigh in and try to prevent that

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/os-george-zimmernman-omara-gets-discovery-20120514,0,3572078.story

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/11/justice/florida-stand-ground-sentencing/index.html?hpt=ju_c2

Florida woman sentenced to 20 years in controversial warning shot case

Alexander said she was attempting to flee her husband, Rico Gray, on August 1, 2010, when she picked up a handgun and fired a shot into a wall.

She said her husband had read cell phone text messages that she had written to her ex-husband, got angry and tried to strangle her.

She said she escaped and ran to the garage, intending to drive away. But, she said, she forgot her keys, so she picked up her gun and went back into the house. She said her husband threatened to kill her, so she fired one shot.

"I believe when he threatened to kill me, that's what he was absolutely going to do," she said. "That's what he intended to do. Had I not discharged my weapon at that point, I would not be here."

Alexander's attorneys tried to use the state law that allows people to use potentially deadly force anywhere they feel reasonably threatened with serious harm or death.

But a previous judge in the case rejected the request, saying Alexander's decision to go back into the house was not consistent with someone in fear for her safety, according to the Florida Times Union newspaper.

This should prove interesting since many will liken this scenario to GZ's decision to get out of his truck and follow Trayvon....

Stolat wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/11/justice/florida-stand-ground-sentencing/index.html?hpt=ju_c2

Florida woman sentenced to 20 years in controversial warning shot case

Alexander said she was attempting to flee her husband, Rico Gray, on August 1, 2010, when she picked up a handgun and fired a shot into a wall.

She said her husband had read cell phone text messages that she had written to her ex-husband, got angry and tried to strangle her.

She said she escaped and ran to the garage, intending to drive away. But, she said, she forgot her keys, so she picked up her gun and went back into the house. She said her husband threatened to kill her, so she fired one shot.

"I believe when he threatened to kill me, that's what he was absolutely going to do," she said. "That's what he intended to do. Had I not discharged my weapon at that point, I would not be here."

Alexander's attorneys tried to use the state law that allows people to use potentially deadly force anywhere they feel reasonably threatened with serious harm or death.

But a previous judge in the case rejected the request, saying Alexander's decision to go back into the house was not consistent with someone in fear for her safety, according to the Florida Times Union newspaper.

This should prove interesting since many will liken this scenario to GZ's decision to get out of his truck and follow Trayvon....

Hi Stolat,

I guess what they are saying is that the woman could have ran to a neighbor or somewhere and called the police. Instead she chose to go back in the house where the threat was.

I doubt that Zimmerman is even going to usw the SYG law because he did pursue Trayvon. I'm pretty sure his lawyer will advise against it. Withe the SYG rule Zimmerman would have to do the proving. Now, he may use the self defense, but that too may cause a problem for Zimmerman. The 911 tapes prove that Zimmerman was going after Trayvon and for no apparent reason.

I hope they release the doc's. They can redact all the names they want as long as we can get some idea of what the prosecutor has.

O'Mara redatcing (I just loves these icons, don't you?)

It's great to see all HM posters again. At first I thought my computer went down and I kept rebooting it. I hope Val is OK.

So hello to all my friends from the HM.

Glad we found a soft landing!
Hope we get a doc dump today, but seems MOM might delay.

Gizmo711 wrote:

Stolat wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/11/justice/florida-stand-ground-sentencing/index.html?hpt=ju_c2

Florida woman sentenced to 20 years in controversial warning shot case

Alexander said she was attempting to flee her husband, Rico Gray, on August 1, 2010, when she picked up a handgun and fired a shot into a wall.

She said her husband had read cell phone text messages that she had written to her ex-husband, got angry and tried to strangle her.

She said she escaped and ran to the garage, intending to drive away. But, she said, she forgot her keys, so she picked up her gun and went back into the house. She said her husband threatened to kill her, so she fired one shot.

"I believe when he threatened to kill me, that's what he was absolutely going to do," she said. "That's what he intended to do. Had I not discharged my weapon at that point, I would not be here."

Alexander's attorneys tried to use the state law that allows people to use potentially deadly force anywhere they feel reasonably threatened with serious harm or death.

But a previous judge in the case rejected the request, saying Alexander's decision to go back into the house was not consistent with someone in fear for her safety, according to the Florida Times Union newspaper.

This should prove interesting since many will liken this scenario to GZ's decision to get out of his truck and follow Trayvon....

Hi Stolat,

I guess what they are saying is that the woman could have ran to a neighbor or somewhere and called the police. Instead she chose to go back in the house where the threat was.

I doubt that Zimmerman is even going to usw the SYG law because he did pursue Trayvon. I'm pretty sure his lawyer will advise against it. Withe the SYG rule Zimmerman would have to do the proving. Now, he may use the self defense, but that too may cause a problem for Zimmerman. The 911 tapes prove that Zimmerman was going after Trayvon and for no apparent reason.

I hope they release the doc's. They can redact all the names they want as long as we can get some idea of what the prosecutor has.

O'Mara redatcing (I just loves these icons, don't you?)

I do love the icons ha! and this site is quite easy to access on my phone.

I wouldn't be shocked by anything with MOM - even the use of SYG. But if so, this recent case will surely be referenced as precedence. I do wish the docs would come out...

, the said GEORGE ZIMMERMAN did carry, display, use, threaten to use or attempt to use a firearm

This is from the Second Degree Charge

If the State could not come up with who actually started the physical confrontation, how can they determine that GZ displayed or threatened to use that gun.

I am still curious as to the time that TM was MIA. On the non-911 (forever referred to as 911 by me because I think it is silly to keep putting NON in front of it) Zimmerman reported to dispatch that "He is running" at approx 2:08. That call lasted for a little over 4 minutes. That means for roughly 2 minutes there was no sighting of TM. Roughly a couple of hundred yards to get to Brandy's TH.

Yet these two still managed to meet up and have a confrontation and ultimately the death of that teenager within a minute or so of GZ's disconnect from Dispatch.

You have TM's girlfriend stating that he asked "Why are you following me?" first. The response from GZ was "What are you doing here?"

It doesn't make sense that GZ was displaying that gun and yet that the young man approached him anyway. Self-preservation dictates otherwise, IMO.

They would need an eye/ear witness that heard Zimmerman say that he had a gun or saw him with it being displayed. I would assume that would mean that it is in his hand and no longer holstered or at the least displaying it from it holstered position. I don't think that is possible due to the lighting/weather conditions between those rows of townhomes.

Only 5 of the witnesses have talked to the media. I read elsewhere that there are 11 total potential witnesses and, while the site is reputable (IMO!), this is hearsay as far as I am concerned until proven.

That would be the first thing I would go after if I were MOM. It could lead to a dismissal without the SYG hearing.

There is no question that he carried and used that weapon. He admitted to it.

Not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV.

DebFrmHell wrote:, the said GEORGE ZIMMERMAN did carry, display, use, threaten to use or attempt to use a firearm

This is from the Second Degree Charge...

SO happy to see you Deb!!

Stolat wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:, the said GEORGE ZIMMERMAN did carry, display, use, threaten to use or attempt to use a firearm

This is from the Second Degree Charge...

SO happy to see you Deb!!

Hey there! Good to see you too! I figured if I am trying to make a new "home" I had better download my avie so you would know when to "Scroll and Roll!"

I love smilies with the passion of a zealot but some of these are just odd...they are so hyper! hahaha. Makes me long for the good old days...
My new favorite is:

but I miss the gappy toothed grin of MrGreen!

DebFrmHell wrote:, the said GEORGE ZIMMERMAN did carry, display, use, threaten to use or attempt to use a firearm

This is from the Second Degree Charge

If the State could not come up with who actually started the physical confrontation, how can they determine that GZ displayed or threatened to use that gun.

I am still curious as to the time that TM was MIA. On the non-911 (forever referred to as 911 by me because I think it is silly to keep putting NON in front of it) Zimmerman reported to dispatch that "He is running" at approx 2:08. That call lasted for a little over 4 minutes. That means for roughly 2 minutes there was no sighting of TM. Roughly a couple of hundred yards to get to Brandy's TH.

Yet these two still managed to meet up and have a confrontation and ultimately the death of that teenager within a minute or so of GZ's disconnect from Dispatch.

You have TM's girlfriend stating that he asked "Why are you following me?" first. The response from GZ was "What are you doing here?"

It doesn't make sense that GZ was displaying that gun and yet that the young man approached him anyway. Self-preservation dictates otherwise, IMO.

They would need an eye/ear witness that heard Zimmerman say that he had a gun or saw him with it being displayed. I would assume that would mean that it is in his hand and no longer holstered or at the least displaying it from it holstered position. I don't think that is possible due to the lighting/weather conditions between those rows of townhomes.

Only 5 of the witnesses have talked to the media. I read elsewhere that there are 11 total potential witnesses and, while the site is reputable (IMO!), this is hearsay as far as I am concerned until proven.

That would be the first thing I would go after if I were MOM. It could lead to a dismissal without the SYG hearing.

There is no question that he carried and used that weapon. He admitted to it.

Not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV.

Hi Deb I wish we could upload the map of the complex like we do these little figures - it would make it easier to explain, but I was thinking that GZ was running along side the front of the row of townhomes - while Trayvon is running along between the backside of the townhomes - that Trayvon probably (don't know) had those baggy type pants the kids all wear and you cant really run in those - so he is walking fast as those will let him. With that happening, I think GZ managed to run faster and cut back between the townhomes closest to Trayvon's destination and in front of Trayvon. I think GZ had one or more of his flashlights lit and gun in hand....That is what I am imagening .... Does that sound like it would fit?

CherokeeNative wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:, the said GEORGE ZIMMERMAN did carry, display, use, threaten to use or attempt to use a firearm

This is from the Second Degree Charge

If the State could not come up with who actually started the physical confrontation, how can they determine that GZ displayed or threatened to use that gun.

I am still curious as to the time that TM was MIA. On the non-911 (forever referred to as 911 by me because I think it is silly to keep putting NON in front of it) Zimmerman reported to dispatch that "He is running" at approx 2:08. That call lasted for a little over 4 minutes. That means for roughly 2 minutes there was no sighting of TM. Roughly a couple of hundred yards to get to Brandy's TH.

Yet these two still managed to meet up and have a confrontation and ultimately the death of that teenager within a minute or so of GZ's disconnect from Dispatch.

You have TM's girlfriend stating that he asked "Why are you following me?" first. The response from GZ was "What are you doing here?"

It doesn't make sense that GZ was displaying that gun and yet that the young man approached him anyway. Self-preservation dictates otherwise, IMO.

They would need an eye/ear witness that heard Zimmerman say that he had a gun or saw him with it being displayed. I would assume that would mean that it is in his hand and no longer holstered or at the least displaying it from it holstered position. I don't think that is possible due to the lighting/weather conditions between those rows of townhomes.

Only 5 of the witnesses have talked to the media. I read elsewhere that there are 11 total potential witnesses and, while the site is reputable (IMO!), this is hearsay as far as I am concerned until proven.

That would be the first thing I would go after if I were MOM. It could lead to a dismissal without the SYG hearing.

There is no question that he carried and used that weapon. He admitted to it.

Not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV.

Hi Deb I wish we could upload the map of the complex like we do these little figures - it would make it easier to explain, but I was thinking that GZ was running along side the front of the row of townhomes - while Trayvon is running along between the backside of the townhomes - that Trayvon probably (don't know) had those baggy type pants the kids all wear and you cant really run in those - so he is walking fast as those will let him. With that happening, I think GZ managed to run faster and cut back between the townhomes closest to Trayvon's destination and in front of Trayvon. I think GZ had one or more of his flashlights lit and gun in hand....That is what I am imagening .... Does that sound like it would fit?

i WILL UPLOAD IT WHEN i GET HOME FROM WORK. ooops caps lock. I have to go to work then I will repy. THere is an image feature here. I just done't have the time. I am not even editing!

CherokeeNative wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:, the said GEORGE ZIMMERMAN did carry, display, use, threaten to use or attempt to use a firearm

This is from the Second Degree Charge

If the State could not come up with who actually started the physical confrontation, how can they determine that GZ displayed or threatened to use that gun.

I am still curious as to the time that TM was MIA. On the non-911 (forever referred to as 911 by me because I think it is silly to keep putting NON in front of it) Zimmerman reported to dispatch that "He is running" at approx 2:08. That call lasted for a little over 4 minutes. That means for roughly 2 minutes there was no sighting of TM. Roughly a couple of hundred yards to get to Brandy's TH.

Yet these two still managed to meet up and have a confrontation and ultimately the death of that teenager within a minute or so of GZ's disconnect from Dispatch.

You have TM's girlfriend stating that he asked "Why are you following me?" first. The response from GZ was "What are you doing here?"

It doesn't make sense that GZ was displaying that gun and yet that the young man approached him anyway. Self-preservation dictates otherwise, IMO.

They would need an eye/ear witness that heard Zimmerman say that he had a gun or saw him with it being displayed. I would assume that would mean that it is in his hand and no longer holstered or at the least displaying it from it holstered position. I don't think that is possible due to the lighting/weather conditions between those rows of townhomes.

Only 5 of the witnesses have talked to the media. I read elsewhere that there are 11 total potential witnesses and, while the site is reputable (IMO!), this is hearsay as far as I am concerned until proven.

That would be the first thing I would go after if I were MOM. It could lead to a dismissal without the SYG hearing.

There is no question that he carried and used that weapon. He admitted to it.

Not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV.

Hi Deb I wish we could upload the map of the complex like we do these little figures - it would make it easier to explain, but I was thinking that GZ was running along side the front of the row of townhomes - while Trayvon is running along between the backside of the townhomes - that Trayvon probably (don't know) had those baggy type pants the kids all wear and you cant really run in those - so he is walking fast as those will let him. With that happening, I think GZ managed to run faster and cut back between the townhomes closest to Trayvon's destination and in front of Trayvon. I think GZ had one or more of his flashlights lit and gun in hand....That is what I am imagening .... Does that sound like it would fit?

It is a very plausible theory, there are passageways between some of the townhouses.

I believe this is what you are referring to:



http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-path.jpg

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:, the said GEORGE ZIMMERMAN did carry, display, use, threaten to use or attempt to use a firearm

This is from the Second Degree Charge

If the State could not come up with who actually started the physical confrontation, how can they determine that GZ displayed or threatened to use that gun.

I am still curious as to the time that TM was MIA. On the non-911 (forever referred to as 911 by me because I think it is silly to keep putting NON in front of it) Zimmerman reported to dispatch that "He is running" at approx 2:08. That call lasted for a little over 4 minutes. That means for roughly 2 minutes there was no sighting of TM. Roughly a couple of hundred yards to get to Brandy's TH.

Yet these two still managed to meet up and have a confrontation and ultimately the death of that teenager within a minute or so of GZ's disconnect from Dispatch.

You have TM's girlfriend stating that he asked "Why are you following me?" first. The response from GZ was "What are you doing here?"

It doesn't make sense that GZ was displaying that gun and yet that the young man approached him anyway. Self-preservation dictates otherwise, IMO.

They would need an eye/ear witness that heard Zimmerman say that he had a gun or saw him with it being displayed. I would assume that would mean that it is in his hand and no longer holstered or at the least displaying it from it holstered position. I don't think that is possible due to the lighting/weather conditions between those rows of townhomes.

Only 5 of the witnesses have talked to the media. I read elsewhere that there are 11 total potential witnesses and, while the site is reputable (IMO!), this is hearsay as far as I am concerned until proven.

That would be the first thing I would go after if I were MOM. It could lead to a dismissal without the SYG hearing.

There is no question that he carried and used that weapon. He admitted to it.

Not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV.

Hi Deb I wish we could upload the map of the complex like we do these little figures - it would make it easier to explain, but I was thinking that GZ was running along side the front of the row of townhomes - while Trayvon is running along between the backside of the townhomes - that Trayvon probably (don't know) had those baggy type pants the kids all wear and you cant really run in those - so he is walking fast as those will let him. With that happening, I think GZ managed to run faster and cut back between the townhomes closest to Trayvon's destination and in front of Trayvon. I think GZ had one or more of his flashlights lit and gun in hand....That is what I am imagening .... Does that sound like it would fit?

It is a very plausible theory, there are passageways between some of the townhouses.

I believe this is what you are referring to:



http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-path.jpg

Exactly Allessandra - but Iam thinking GZ went even further towards Brandy's TH before cutting over. Does that sound feasible? The reason I am saying that is because they keep saying Trayvon was only 70 yards from home before he was confronted by GZ - or at least I think I read that.

Deb- Sounds good...don't work too hard.

CherokeeNative wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:, the said GEORGE ZIMMERMAN did carry, display, use, threaten to use or attempt to use a firearm

This is from the Second Degree Charge

If the State could not come up with who actually started the physical confrontation, how can they determine that GZ displayed or threatened to use that gun.

I am still curious as to the time that TM was MIA. On the non-911 (forever referred to as 911 by me because I think it is silly to keep putting NON in front of it) Zimmerman reported to dispatch that "He is running" at approx 2:08. That call lasted for a little over 4 minutes. That means for roughly 2 minutes there was no sighting of TM. Roughly a couple of hundred yards to get to Brandy's TH.

Yet these two still managed to meet up and have a confrontation and ultimately the death of that teenager within a minute or so of GZ's disconnect from Dispatch.

You have TM's girlfriend stating that he asked "Why are you following me?" first. The response from GZ was "What are you doing here?"

It doesn't make sense that GZ was displaying that gun and yet that the young man approached him anyway. Self-preservation dictates otherwise, IMO.

They would need an eye/ear witness that heard Zimmerman say that he had a gun or saw him with it being displayed. I would assume that would mean that it is in his hand and no longer holstered or at the least displaying it from it holstered position. I don't think that is possible due to the lighting/weather conditions between those rows of townhomes.

Only 5 of the witnesses have talked to the media. I read elsewhere that there are 11 total potential witnesses and, while the site is reputable (IMO!), this is hearsay as far as I am concerned until proven.

That would be the first thing I would go after if I were MOM. It could lead to a dismissal without the SYG hearing.

There is no question that he carried and used that weapon. He admitted to it.

Not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV.

Hi Deb I wish we could upload the map of the complex like we do these little figures - it would make it easier to explain, but I was thinking that GZ was running along side the front of the row of townhomes - while Trayvon is running along between the backside of the townhomes - that Trayvon probably (don't know) had those baggy type pants the kids all wear and you cant really run in those - so he is walking fast as those will let him. With that happening, I think GZ managed to run faster and cut back between the townhomes closest to Trayvon's destination and in front of Trayvon. I think GZ had one or more of his flashlights lit and gun in hand....That is what I am imagening .... Does that sound like it would fit?

It is a very plausible theory, there are passageways between some of the townhouses.

I believe this is what you are referring to:



http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-path.jpg

Exactly Allessandra - but Iam thinking GZ went even further towards Brandy's TH before cutting over. Does that sound feasible? The reason I am saying that is because they keep saying Trayvon was only 70 yards from home before he was confronted by GZ - or at least I think I read that.

Yes, that is what the Sanford Chief of Police told the Sun Sentinel, Trayvon was found 210 feet (70 yards) from Brandy's house. That is one of the reasons why I can't wait for the court files to be released to the public; I would like to read the crime investigation report, the forensic reports, and the transcripts of witnesses' testimonies.

Hi! I wonder how much "John", the eye witness saw? Did he see the very beginning when both were still standing and choose not to tell about that part? OR did he come in on the middle of it?
Where can I see your picture, Julie? ♥ Read about that, elsewhere.
I am so technically hip, I make myself SICK! lol

Hi Joni, I see the message......Hi dee!

My avatar is Bridget Fonda, from the movie Point of No Return. I loved that movie!

Alessandra - Whew - I thought I read it somewhere, but didn't have a link to back it up. And it makes sense, because I think (as many others) GZ was guessing that Trayvon was heading for the back entrance.

I agree, we need fresh discovery to mull through so we can put our speculations to rest (or at least some of them).

Alessandra - Wait - I read that too fast and didn't absorb it. Are you saying his body was only 70 yards from Brandy's TH? If so, I have a bad conception of what 70 yards is...and looking at the picture, I would have guessed the distance to Trayvon's body was much further. The scenario that I have come up with from reading everything and everyone's elses' speculations is that GZ cut over after the 2nd townhome structure in front of Trayvon at point Trayvon turned and ran back the direction from which he was coming with GZ chasing him and the altercation occurred where his body was found. Which would mean that GZ first met up with Trayvon much closer to Brandy's TH than 70 yards... Hope that makes sense.

O'Mara receives discovery.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-14/news/os-george-zimmernman-omara-gets-discovery-20120514_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-rachel-fugate

As the world eagerly awaits the release of never-before-seen evidence in the case against George Zimmerman, employees for Special Prosecutor Angela Corey late this afternoon provided a preview in the form of an eight-page document.

The paperwork, filed with the Seminole County clerk as closing time approached, listed several witnesses the state plans to call and identified several pieces of the evidence prosecutors expect to use in their scond-degree murder case against Zimmerman.

So many Hinkies posting here! Good to see ya!

CherokeeNative wrote:O'Mara receives discovery.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-14/news/os-george-zimmernman-omara-gets-discovery-20120514_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-rachel-fugate

As the world eagerly awaits the release of never-before-seen evidence in the case against George Zimmerman, employees for Special Prosecutor Angela Corey late this afternoon provided a preview in the form of an eight-page document.

The paperwork, filed with the Seminole County clerk as closing time approached, listed several witnesses the state plans to call and identified several pieces of the evidence prosecutors expect to use in their scond-degree murder case against Zimmerman.

I found it interesting that there is a video of the club house. Also about the phone records of March because of a comment that was made on the stand about a text(or something to that affect) that George seemed shocked. Thanks for posting.

snowbird wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:O'Mara receives discovery.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-14/news/os-george-zimmernman-omara-gets-discovery-20120514_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-rachel-fugate

As the world eagerly awaits the release of never-before-seen evidence in the case against George Zimmerman, employees for Special Prosecutor Angela Corey late this afternoon provided a preview in the form of an eight-page document.

The paperwork, filed with the Seminole County clerk as closing time approached, listed several witnesses the state plans to call and identified several pieces of the evidence prosecutors expect to use in their scond-degree murder case against Zimmerman.

I found it interesting that there is a video of the club house. Also about the phone records of March because of a comment that was made on the stand about a text(or something to that affect) that George seemed shocked. Thanks for posting.

Snowbird - I made the same connection - it has something to do with GZ's text message brought up that the bond hearing. Oh, I can hardly wait to see it. LOL

Back at you Freckles!!

I just love these little characters - I think I could do a whole sentence just using them LOL. I can even beat you over the head if I want to... LMAO Sure beats the heck out of being snarky now doesn't it?

How much evidence do ya'll believe they will be able to keep from the press?

I wager that the press will prevail on everything except witnesses and witness addresses, etc.

Hello all...I see some familiar faces from THM! It is tantalizing to hear a few tidbits about the evidence and witness list. I hope we will get a look at some of it soon.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:, the said GEORGE ZIMMERMAN did carry, display, use, threaten to use or attempt to use a firearm

This is from the Second Degree Charge

If the State could not come up with who actually started the physical confrontation, how can they determine that GZ displayed or threatened to use that gun.

I am still curious as to the time that TM was MIA. On the non-911 (forever referred to as 911 by me because I think it is silly to keep putting NON in front of it) Zimmerman reported to dispatch that "He is running" at approx 2:08. That call lasted for a little over 4 minutes. That means for roughly 2 minutes there was no sighting of TM. Roughly a couple of hundred yards to get to Brandy's TH.

Yet these two still managed to meet up and have a confrontation and ultimately the death of that teenager within a minute or so of GZ's disconnect from Dispatch.

You have TM's girlfriend stating that he asked "Why are you following me?" first. The response from GZ was "What are you doing here?"

It doesn't make sense that GZ was displaying that gun and yet that the young man approached him anyway. Self-preservation dictates otherwise, IMO.

They would need an eye/ear witness that heard Zimmerman say that he had a gun or saw him with it being displayed. I would assume that would mean that it is in his hand and no longer holstered or at the least displaying it from it holstered position. I don't think that is possible due to the lighting/weather conditions between those rows of townhomes.

Only 5 of the witnesses have talked to the media. I read elsewhere that there are 11 total potential witnesses and, while the site is reputable (IMO!), this is hearsay as far as I am concerned until proven.

That would be the first thing I would go after if I were MOM. It could lead to a dismissal without the SYG hearing.

There is no question that he carried and used that weapon. He admitted to it.

Not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV.

Hi Deb I wish we could upload the map of the complex like we do these little figures - it would make it easier to explain, but I was thinking that GZ was running along side the front of the row of townhomes - while Trayvon is running along between the backside of the townhomes - that Trayvon probably (don't know) had those baggy type pants the kids all wear and you cant really run in those - so he is walking fast as those will let him. With that happening, I think GZ managed to run faster and cut back between the townhomes closest to Trayvon's destination and in front of Trayvon. I think GZ had one or more of his flashlights lit and gun in hand....That is what I am imagening .... Does that sound like it would fit?

It is a very plausible theory, there are passageways between some of the townhouses.

I believe this is what you are referring to:



http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-path.jpg

That is the one. The only thing I would have to differ with is the path that Trayvon M took.

In the 911 call, Zimmerman says he is going towards the back gate. If TM went to the sidewalks there are several different ways for him to continue. If he goes straight he can go back to the main entrance or the rear entrance via Retreat View Circle. I think that he stayed on the surface street and then disappeared between the two buildings where there is no sidewalk. Basically the same path that GZ took a couple of minutes later. Where was Trayvon Martin during those couple of minutes? Why did Brandy Green mention him on the porch the day after the shooting?

I also think that the meeting point on that map is correct and that GZ's vehicle was moved up to that point.

There is only one minute +/- a few seconds for the confrontation and the shooting to occur after GZ terminated that call with Dispatch.

There is also the "eye" witness that lived between the shooting area and Brandy Green's townhouse. Gilbreath said that she saw two people/blurs run past her window or patio door. A craptastic witness that saw nothing distinguishing between the two men.

I think it is entirely possible that TM was chasing GZ at that point. I say that because according to Trayvon's GF, he initiated the conversation with "Why are you following me?" GZ's response was "What are you doing here?" or "Who are you?" I think the Orlando Sentinel had a longer version of her recap, IIRC.

I also think that was a very sanitizied recap of those conversations...both of those guys had a mouth on them, judging from their MS/FB/Twits. I find it hard to believe there wasn't a swear word uttered between them. It isn't like Crump and Co. hasn't cleaned up some things before. Look at the media coverage from the start with the 13yr old image of TM vrs the 2005 mug shot of GZ. Crump knows how to play, he isn't an activist lawyer for nothing.

Sorry, if I offend but it is what I think.

I don't care what all is redacted for the witnesses. I don't think their names and addresses should be made public anyway but I would love to read all of them. Naturally, I think that will be some of the last things to come forth.

Deb-
Hate me for muddling the soup. Is there any reason to believe Trayvon WAS running? We know GZ was huffing it but Trayvon told a gf he would NOT run. IMO, Trayvon MAY have stepped to the side for shelter from the rain, he may have stepped to the side to avoid having GZ know where he was going so GZ could not later invade that space where there was a 14 yr old boy. I don't believe Trayvon was running.

I am trying to place another individual at the scene of the crime. This is the person who, using his own cell phone, took the picture of the back of GZ's head. If you look at the time line of the gunshot to when PD arrived, there is less than 2 minutes, IIRC. So GZ shoots TM, is seen kneeling or touching TM;s back, pacing and running his hands along his head, getting his picture taken, and greeting the PD.

When did this person arrive? GZ sposedly asked him to either "Call Shelly," or, "Call my wife." This person then called GZ' spouse. He called on HIS OWN cell phone, not GZ's. Now riddle me this: HOW did the cell phone picture taker KNOW the number for " Shelly," or the "wife "?

This leads me to believe the person taking the picture of GZ' head KNEW GZ and KNEW GZ' wife's name was Shelly AND had the number in his cell phone all ready.

Of those associated with GZ in the residential area, who would have known GZ' wife, Shelly, phone number? The only person introduced thus far has to be the NW friend.

Now tell me how this NW friend "just happened " to be on the scene? Did GZ call him AFTER TM was shot and the friend arrived before the PD? Or, did GZ call the NW friend earlier and ask him to "head off" TM at the back gate?

We are missing details big time.

It was said on the news this morning that there was a camera running. The club house has a surveilance camera. MOM wants to look at it before it is released. It certainly seems like the prosecution DOES have more than just what is heard on the media.

Zimmerman must be beside himself right about now. I guess Mr. Zimmerman is going to say this is a lie just like he said the phone call between TM and gf was a lie.

If the surveilance camera would have shown TM chasing GZ there probably would NOT have been an arrest at all. So I am prone to believe that it shows the other way around.

And who knows, it just may very well show who showed up to take that picture of Zimmermans head, so there may very well be another involved.

Freckles wrote:Deb-
Hate me for muddling the soup. Is there any reason to believe Trayvon WAS running? We know GZ was huffing it but Trayvon told a gf he would NOT run. IMO, Trayvon MAY have stepped to the side for shelter from the rain, he may have stepped to the side to avoid having GZ know where he was going so GZ could not later invade that space where there was a 14 yr old boy. I don't believe Trayvon was running.

I am trying to place another individual at the scene of the crime. This is the person who, using his own cell phone, took the picture of the back of GZ's head. If you look at the time line of the gunshot to when PD arrived, there is less than 2 minutes, IIRC. So GZ shoots TM, is seen kneeling or touching TM;s back, pacing and running his hands along his head, getting his picture taken, and greeting the PD.
When did this person arrive? GZ sposedly asked him to either "Call Shelly," or, "Call my wife." This person then called GZ' spouse. He called on HIS OWN cell phone, not GZ's. Now riddle me this: HOW did the cell phone picture taker KNOW the number for " Shelly," or the "wife "?

This leads me to believe the person taking the picture of GZ' head KNEW GZ and KNEW GZ' wife's name was Shelly AND had the number in his cell phone all ready.

Of those associated with GZ in the residential area, who would have known GZ' wife, Shelly, phone number? The only person introduced thus far has to be the NW friend.
Now tell me how this NW friend "just happened " to be on the scene? Did GZ call him AFTER TM was shot and the friend arrived before the PD? Or, did GZ call the NW friend earlier and ask him to "head off" TM at the back gate?

We are missing details big time.

Hi Freckles,

I am prone to agree with you. It does seem very odd that the person who suddenly shows up at the scene within "seconds" knows Zimmerman and his wife and has his Zimmermans phone number all ready. Sounds like FT to me. I wonder if LE will be able to get FT's phone records?

Of course Trayvon was going in the direction of the rear entrance, that is where he was staying. The map speaks loud and clear. Trayvon was trying to make it home and just when Trayvon thought he managed to shake his follower off Zimmerman cut him off by going around the front way to the back. This was the huffing and puffing we heard on the 911 call. We also heard loud and clear Zimmerman say that Trayvon was heading towards the rear entrance (which shows just what took place) Trayvon almost made it home until Zimmerman cut him off and shot him.

The video must show Zimmerman going around to cut Trayvon off. All this would justify the "murder two" charge. This would also eliminate Zimmerman from using the SYG law. Not only is the 911 call showing this but now they have a video that might back up the 911 call.

Sorry George, looks like your charge is correct. :)

Freckles, another thing to think about. Another neighbor saw two shadows of men running, which seemed like one chasing another. This could very well have been the associate that Zimmerman had with him and both were chasing Trayvon.

I think this may very well be FT seeing as he immediately jumped on the band wagon in Zimmermans behalf. He also has been trying to get funds up for Zimmerman.

I am really prone to think you are correct in that there were two running after Trayvon.

Gizmo711 wrote:It was said on the news this morning that there was a camera running. The club house has a surveilance camera. MOM wants to look at it before it is released. It certainly seems like the prosecution DOES have more than just what is heard on the media.

Zimmerman must be beside himself right about now. I guess Mr. Zimmerman is going to say this is a lie just like he said the phone call between TM and gf was a lie.

If the surveilance camera would have shown TM chasing GZ there probably would NOT have been an arrest at all. So I am prone to believe that it shows the other way around.

And who knows, it just may very well show who showed up to take that picture of Zimmermans head, so there may very well be another involved.

From looking at the map, I doubt that the surveillance camera will show us whether TM was chasing GZ or vice versa in the vicinity of where their struggle and the shooting took place. But hopefully, depending on where GZ's vehicle was stopped, it may show us the moment when TM came close to the vehicle, and whether or not he "circled" it as was reportedly claimed by GZ.

Gizmo711 wrote:
It does seem very odd that the person who suddenly shows up at the scene within "seconds" knows Zimmerman and his wife and has his Zimmermans phone number all ready. Sounds like FT to me. I wonder if LE will be able to get FT's phone records?

Surely it is well known to LE who took that photo. If it was FT, he's got a lot of explaining to do, because to my knowledge in his many, many media appearances, he has yet to place himself at the scene. I also think it is possible that another acquaintance of GZ's or even a complete stranger took the photo for him and called his wife. GZ could have supplied the phone number.