George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Gizmo711 wrote:Freckles, another thing to think about. Another neighbor saw two shadows of men running, which seemed like one chasing another. This could very well have been the associate that Zimmerman had with him and both were chasing Trayvon.

I think this may very well be FT seeing as he immediately jumped on the band wagon in Zimmermans behalf. He also has been trying to get funds up for Zimmerman.

I am really prone to think you are correct in that there were two running after Trayvon.

IIRC, a neighbor has said s/he saw TWO flashlights. Presuming GZ has the gun in one hand, how could he manage two flashlights in the other hand?

Are we sure GZ was the person with the gun? While it may have been registered to him, and it is apparent it was used to kill Trayvon, where is the evidence GZ used it?

Logically, if FT and GZ were BOTH implicate in the murder of Trayvon: GZ has better connections, GZ has a "clean-er" record, GZ has the belief he is in tight with the local LE. FT, on the other hand had a prison record, no familial connections. FT would go down hard.

I am not yet convinced FT and GZ did not plan to draw blood that night or some other night. They had some sort of pact. They were bullies making their hood, so to speak. JMO but it may evolve as things move along.

Freckles wrote:Deb-
Hate me for muddling the soup. Is there any reason to believe Trayvon WAS running? We know GZ was huffing it but Trayvon told a gf he would NOT run. IMO, Trayvon MAY have stepped to the side for shelter from the rain, he may have stepped to the side to avoid having GZ know where he was going so GZ could not later invade that space where there was a 14 yr old boy. I don't believe Trayvon was running.

I am trying to place another individual at the scene of the crime. This is the person who, using his own cell phone, took the picture of the back of GZ's head. If you look at the time line of the gunshot to when PD arrived, there is less than 2 minutes, IIRC. So GZ shoots TM, is seen kneeling or touching TM;s back, pacing and running his hands along his head, getting his picture taken, and greeting the PD.

When did this person arrive? GZ sposedly asked him to either "Call Shelly," or, "Call my wife." This person then called GZ' spouse. He called on HIS OWN cell phone, not GZ's. Now riddle me this: HOW did the cell phone picture taker KNOW the number for " Shelly," or the "wife "?

This leads me to believe the person taking the picture of GZ' head KNEW GZ and KNEW GZ' wife's name was Shelly AND had the number in his cell phone all ready.

Of those associated with GZ in the residential area, who would have known GZ' wife, Shelly, phone number? The only person introduced thus far has to be the NW friend.

Now tell me how this NW friend "just happened " to be on the scene? Did GZ call him AFTER TM was shot and the friend arrived before the PD? Or, did GZ call the NW friend earlier and ask him to "head off" TM at the back gate?

We are missing details big time.

Muddle away, my friend, muddle away. So many questions, so little info so far. Real life is rarely as complicated as you seem want to make it though, IMO.

I do want to address what I bolded...

-The pacing I can understand. It was a stressful event that cost a young man his life. Only a robot would be unaffected.

-Getting his photo taken, I think that is just before he was cuffed and placed in the police car. The police cars would be outside of the crime scene. They would be on the road. If I were getting ready to be taken to the police dept, I would ask a person to call home for me just because they don't let you have that one phone call right away. It takes hours. He would know that. I would not be surprised in the least if he was calling his dad just before getting cuffed and placed in that car.

-We don't know that this person is a friend. It might be an accquaintance. We also don't know that he didn't give that person a number to call either. I have never read that he asked someone to call "Shellie." IIRC, he asked for that person to call his wife. Could it have been Frank Taafe? IDK. I don't know where FT lives in that complex. It could be just someone who is familiar to him.

((Honestly, I think that FT injected himself into this more than what was warranted and I don't think they were that close of friends. The only reason Taafe got air time is because he was a loose cannon. He did much more harm than good and the station (HLN?) knew he would get ratings.))

-Greeting the police, They drew down on him because they knew he was armed. I would hardly call that a greeting.

-If he is pacing, holding his head and in general being in an agitated state when is he stopping to make calls? In about a minute, a police officer had his gun drawn on him. Witnesses that came out seconds after the shooting, and I think there are four that gave interviews to the media, reported what he was doing. Not one of them said he was on his phone.

Apparently, you are willing believe that part of their statements but you want to inject a phone call. It seems you want it both ways.

I don't get where you think another person was involved. It really makes me confuzzled. That is a huge leap to put another person into the mix.

I don't know when all of the witness statements will be released. I hope it is soon so that we can all get a clearer picture of what happened afterwards. "John" pretty much told us, by way of the TV interview, what was happening beforehand so I don't expect there to be any big revelations from his. He said that Zimmerman was on the bottom. Martin was on top.


Just my IMO.

ETA: Now you have two people chasing down Trayvon Martin? Without one fact to support that? You just can't fit a square peg into a round hole.

Twinkle-
I would think GZ would have made mention of calling FT or another person IF he was on the up. And I would think the other party would have come forth to state they had rec a call from GZ. Because no one has, I must conclude it was not a SYG situation (as if I really needed another pointer in that direction) but a premeditated situation.

IF GZ had given the phone number, he would have stated that. Instead, we heard either GZ/the pic taker state,
"Call Shelly," or "Call my wife" and "Tell her I've shot ???"
Was it "I shot a man," or was it, "I've shot a person."


Wish I had the link!

Also, while in the truck, GZ DID tell PD Trayvon was a teen. On the stand, when he apologized to the Martin family, he stated he believed Trayvon was closer to his (GZ') own age. Like it matters when you murder someone? Hello!

Deb-
You lost me with this:
"Apparently, you are willing believe that part of their statements but you want to inject a phone call. It seems you want it both ways."

Huh?

Regarding two people: IMO, I am speculating FT MAY have been at the opposite end of the grassy area so as to head off Trayvon if he made it that far.

IMO, I just don't see GZ carrying this out on his own. He likes his audience. All the run ins he has had have involved others. He is not the type to stealthily steal or break in somewhere, etc. He appears to have a need to demonstrate how macho he is and that requires an audience.

Does anyone have a link to the origin of the pic or to what GZ said to the pic taker?I am also looking for the link as to when GZ' father was notified, by whom, etc.(Somewhere, I had read the father was already at PD when GZ arrived.)

GZ hasn't really said much of anything out of his own mouth. The only time we have heard him speak is at the bond hearing. ((Not a success story and he fell right into the trap set by de la Rionda. That was great lawyering, IMO, because it got him into a different scope for questioning. He took the risk and it didn't pay off.))

Until I read his actual statement(s) I will be content to wait.

From Freckles

Deb-
You lost me with this:
"Apparently, you are willing believe that part of their statements but you want to inject a phone call. It seems you want it both ways."

Huh?

You have him calling people after the shot. You have him calling Taafe to head off TM at the pass before the shot. You need some evidence to back that. Even just a thread of evidence to get to this point. There is nothing to support anything like this scenario.

Do you know where Taafe lives in that complex? I am just wondering because I have no clue. If GZ is on the phone with 911, when do you think he could have even called Taafe?

Regardless, Taafe still has to leave his house, drive to the approximate area where GZ is in order to do this. If his car is garaged...even longer. Plus, the shooting happened within a minute or so after GZ disconnected from Dispatch.

So now, we not only have to have a verbal confrontation, a chase down, a scuffle, and a shooting within a limited time frame of a minute. Taafe is a non-issue to me simply because of the time it would take to place him there.

That is not to say there won't be but it is a HUGE leap to go there on your own at this point in time because you want it to be.



IMO.

Wow - another video. That's great. I don't believe there was a 2nd person involved. I believe that GZ headed down the front of the townhomes, went down to about the 2nd townhome (much like the pic, but one more building down) and cut over to cut off Trayvon. He could have handled the gun and a flash light easily...in fact, from the video HausofGuns that Deb provided, it talks about how there is a place on the gun to connect a flashlight. I believe GZ headed off Trayvon and chased him back to the point of where the shooting occurred...all by his lonesome. If there was another person involved, even in chasing or cutting off Trayvon, they too would have been arrested as an accomplice. What took Trayvon so long and why hadn't he made it home within that time - he may have been hiding along the townhouses trying to make sure he lost GZ, and when he finally thought he had, he steps out (tells his GF that he thinks he lost GZ) and whammy out jumps GZ in front of him. JMHO

And I know I am beating a dead horse - but I firmly believe that GZ had his gun drawn with flash light on (either in hand or attached to his gun)...and this is why the witness who saw two figures running is distinguishable because he/she saw one figure with no flashlight, and the other (the chaser) with a flashlight. Otherwise, the witness would be of no value as DebfrmHell mentions above.

ETA - The reason I insist that the gun was drawn is, think about it - two police officers would not go behind those townhomes without their weapons drawn if they were searching for a "suspicious person" - it would be too dangerous for the officers. So why would GZ not think the same way? He doesn't know at that point whether or not this suspicious hoodlum is armed - so common sense tells me GZ would not have gone back behind those townhomes without his gun drawn (rambo). This fits because I don't see how else GZ rangles his gun out of its holster in his waistband while Trayvon is atop him. And this also fits because I don't see Trayvon as a "fighter" - he's freaked because some gangster dude is stalking him and what would have set him off would have been to see the gun. It was fight for your life time at that point.

DebFrmHell wrote:GZ hasn't really said much of anything out of his own mouth. The only time we have heard him speak is at the bond hearing. ((Not a success story and he fell right into the trap set by de la Rionda. That was great lawyering, IMO, because it got him into a different scope for questioning. He took the risk and it didn't pay off.))

Until I read his actual statement(s) I will be content to wait.

From Freckles

Deb-
You lost me with this:
"Apparently, you are willing believe that part of their statements but you want to inject a phone call. It seems you want it both ways."

Huh?

You have him calling people after the shot. You have him calling Taafe to head off TM at the pass before the shot. You need some evidence to back that. Even just a thread of evidence to get to this point. There is nothing to support anything like this scenario.

Do you know where Taafe lives in that complex? I am just wondering because I have no clue. If GZ is on the phone with 911, when do you think he could have even called Taafe?

Regardless, Taafe still has to leave his house, drive to the approximate area where GZ is in order to do this. If his car is garaged...even longer. Plus, the shooting happened within a minute or so after GZ disconnected from Dispatch.

So now, we not only have to have a verbal confrontation, a chase down, a scuffle, and a shooting within a limited time frame of a minute. Taafe is a non-issue to me simply because of the time it would take to place him there.

That is not to say there won't be but it is a HUGE leap to go there on your own at this point in time because you want it to be.



IMO.

Deb, I'm getting a little confused (which happens often) Didn't you say that there were 2 minutes and why was Trayvon not home yet? During 2 minutes, if Zimmerman did in fact call someone (maybe FT?) he could very well have called him just following the call from 911 or even prior to the call to 911. If someone saw 2 flashlights and 2 people running, and we know Trayvon wasn't running, then it could all very well be likely that there was another person with Zimmerman or someone met up with Zimmerman prior to the confrontation.

As you said "no one was there, so no one knows". I do believe that there is alot to come out in these doc's that were released yesterday. I'm also pretty sure that the prosecution did NOT jump to judgement in this case (I think we can all agree to that). The only snap judgement made here was Zimmerman jumping to the conclusion that Trayvon was up to no good.

I have to agree that Zimmerman would have wanted an audience.

CherokeeNative wrote:Wow - another video. That's great. I don't believe there was a 2nd person involved. I believe that GZ headed down the front of the townhomes, went down to about the 2nd townhome (much like the pic, but one more building down) and cut over to cut off Trayvon. He could have handled the gun and a flash light easily...in fact, from the video HausofGuns that Deb provided, it talks about how there is a place on the gun to connect a flashlight. I believe GZ headed off Trayvon and chased him back to the point of where the shooting occurred...all by his lonesome. If there was another person involved, even in chasing or cutting off Trayvon, they too would have been arrested as an accomplice. What took Trayvon so long and why hadn't he made it home within that time - he may have been hiding along the townhouses trying to make sure he lost GZ, and when he finally thought he had, he steps out (tells his GF that he thinks he lost GZ) and whammy out jumps GZ in front of him. JMHO

That is exactly what I had thought happened from the beginning. I know if I was being followed I would not want the person following me to know where I live, so I probably would have avoided going to my door until I felt that the person was no longer around. Now, on the other hand, if someone was at home who could help fight off the attacker following me, I probably would have screamed and ran right for my door. In this case there was only a 14 yr old at home and probably wouldn't have been much help. Because if I knew that, say, my grandchild was at home, I certainly would not lead my follower to my home.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-george-zimmernman-omara-gets-discovery-20120514_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-rachel-fugate
George Zimmerman prosecutors file list of witnesses, evidence in Trayvon Martin shooting

The document listed 18 Sanford police officers as primary witnesses, including lead Investigator Chris Serino. Corey's office also turned over five reports prepared by him, as well as written reports prepared by four other Sanford officers.

The list includes new video evidence from the night of the shooting — both from the 7-Eleven store where Trayvon reportedly purchased Skittles and Arizona iced tea and from a clubhouse in Retreat at Twin Lakes, the townhouse complex where the teen was killed.

Also included in the evidence are phone records — Zimmerman's from Feb. 20 to Feb. 28 and from March 7 to March 22, Trayvon's from Jan. 1 through March 1, and those of an unnamed witness labeled "W8" from Feb. 26 through April 2.

The list includes 40 audio-recorded statements. One of the 911 callers, identified as "W6," gave four statements to authorities about the shooting, two to Sanford police, one to FDLE and one to the prosecution's lead trial attorney, Bernie de la Rionda.

W8 gave two statements — one to prosecutors and one to Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump, which suggests W8 may be the girl described by Crump as Trayvon's girlfriend.

Other primary witnesses include four FDLE investigators, three investigators from the office of State Attorney Norm Wolfinger and two from Corey's office, including Dale Gilbreath, who hand-delivered the list to Seminole County clerks about 20 minutes before their doors closed for the day Monday.

Five fire-rescue personnel are listed as witnesses. So are a fingerprints expert with Sanford police and FDLE experts in the fields of firearms, DNA, trace evidence and fingerprints.

------more@link-----

There is little doubt in my mind that Zimmerman did have his gun drawn, and that he also had a flashlite in his hand. Zimmerman would not have followed, stalked, and chased a suspiscious character (that he said he thought of Trayvon)without having his gun out. If he DIDN'T have his gun out then he is going to also have a hard time saying that he was in fear of his life while follwoing Trayvon. So, to me, either way, Zimmerman is not making sence in what he did.

ellejay wrote:http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-george-zimmernman-omara-gets-discovery-20120514_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-rachel-fugate
George Zimmerman prosecutors file list of witnesses, evidence in Trayvon Martin shooting

The document listed 18 Sanford police officers as primary witnesses, including lead Investigator Chris Serino. Corey's office also turned over five reports prepared by him, as well as written reports prepared by four other Sanford officers.

The list includes new video evidence from the night of the shooting — both from the 7-Eleven store where Trayvon reportedly purchased Skittles and Arizona iced tea and from a clubhouse in Retreat at Twin Lakes, the townhouse complex where the teen was killed.

Also included in the evidence are phone records — Zimmerman's from Feb. 20 to Feb. 28 and from March 7 to March 22, Trayvon's from Jan. 1 through March 1, and those of an unnamed witness labeled "W8" from Feb. 26 through April 2.

The list includes 40 audio-recorded statements. One of the 911 callers, identified as "W6," gave four statements to authorities about the shooting, two to Sanford police, one to FDLE and one to the prosecution's lead trial attorney, Bernie de la Rionda.

W8 gave two statements — one to prosecutors and one to Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump, which suggests W8 may be the girl described by Crump as Trayvon's girlfriend.

Other primary witnesses include four FDLE investigators, three investigators from the office of State Attorney Norm Wolfinger and two from Corey's office, including Dale Gilbreath, who hand-delivered the list to Seminole County clerks about 20 minutes before their doors closed for the day Monday.

Five fire-rescue personnel are listed as witnesses. So are a fingerprints expert with Sanford police and FDLE experts in the fields of firearms, DNA, trace evidence and fingerprints.

------more@link-----

Hello Ellejay...... we have been waiting for you......

Ellejay ---- Wooo Hoooo !! So glad you made it.

IF the State can show that GZ had his gun drawn - there is no way GZ can claim self-defense. He will be spiraling down the drain hole. ITA Gizzmo - Trayvon was most likely hiding at one point during this - trying to shake GZ from his tail. I also don't think Trayon could "run" fast because I will bet money that he had those "droopy drawers" that is so popular with young men today.

Ellejay, so very happy to see you. Very nice surprise to have my coffee with this morning. FYI http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Defense-receives-Trayvon-Martin-evidence-against-George-Zimmerman/-/1637132/13377548/-/9b474/-/index.html
MOM said he received a 'credible threat' when he received the evidence.

--RobZ Sr---everyone is a liar----except george.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html#storylink=fb#storylink=cpy
Zimmerman’s father: Our lives will never be the same
George Zimmerman’s father says he is living on the run with his wife and mother-in-law, fearful of death threats made after his son shot Trayvon Martin

--snipped--
He stays in hotels under assumed names. He pays cash so no one will look at his surname and make the connection..

His life upside down and expenses soaring, the retired magistrate wants the public to be clear that he has not received a cent of donations from anyone, despite the $204,000 his son has amassed through a website to help pay for his defense. In an interview with the Miami Herald, Zimmerman criticized the media, prosecutors and attorneys who he says have distorted information and spread lies about a man who mentored black kids and was deeply committed to his community. The Virginia native said he’s sure of one thing: his son’s innocence.

He believes medical records and photos will prove his son was injured by Trayvon when the two met in a gated community’s dark pathway. He said voice tests will show George Zimmerman didn’t lie and an eyewitness will back up his account. The girl who claims to have been on the phone talking to the teenager when the incident occurred will be proved a liar, Zimmerman insists.

--more@link--

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/fbi-seeks-charge-george-zimmerman-hate-crime/nN5pR/
FBI may charge George Zimmerman with hate crime

--snipped--

FBI investigators are actively questioning witnesses in the retreat at the Twin Lakes neighborhood, seeking evidence for a possible federal hate crime charge.

WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer said federal prosecutors would have to prove the hate crime to charge Zimmerman, though.

“What the government would have to prove is that Mr. Zimmerman acted out of hatred toward African-Americans. That's why he came into contact with him. That's why he shot and killed him," Sheaffer said.

Sheaffer said a federal hate crime murder charge could bring more serious consequences than the second-degree murder charge Zimmerman faces now.

“Mr. Zimmerman could be punished by up to life in prison or even the death penalty,” said Sheaffer.

---@ Freckles

--george had 2 flashlights w/ him , one a 6" tactical flashlight, the other small one was attached to his keys.

http://gma.yahoo.com/warning-graphic-photo-possible-evidence-shows-george-zimmermans-050145810--abc-news-topstories.html

The photographer told ABC News exclusively that they did not see the scuffle that night, but did hear it. The source saw Martin's prostrate body on the wet grass and claims the gunpowder burns on Martin's gray hoodie were clearly visible; the gunpowder marks could show that Martin was shot at very close range.

The photographer says that after the shooting Zimmerman asked to call his wife. When the photographer asked what to say, Zimmerman allegedly blurted out "man, just tell her I shot someone."

---@ Deb

--taaffe lives @ 1460 retreat view circle, per: public property records.

ellejay wrote:--RobZ Sr---everyone is a liar----except george.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html#storylink=fb#storylink=cpy
Zimmerman’s father: Our lives will never be the same
George Zimmerman’s father says he is living on the run with his wife and mother-in-law, fearful of death threats made after his son shot Trayvon Martin

--snipped--
He stays in hotels under assumed names. He pays cash so no one will look at his surname and make the connection..

His life upside down and expenses soaring, the retired magistrate wants the public to be clear that he has not received a cent of donations from anyone, despite the $204,000 his son has amassed through a website to help pay for his defense. In an interview with the Miami Herald, Zimmerman criticized the media, prosecutors and attorneys who he says have distorted information and spread lies about a man who mentored black kids and was deeply committed to his community. The Virginia native said he’s sure of one thing: his son’s innocence.

He believes medical records and photos will prove his son was injured by Trayvon when the two met in a gated community’s dark pathway. He said voice tests will show George Zimmerman didn’t lie and an eyewitness will back up his account. The girl who claims to have been on the phone talking to the teenager when the incident occurred will be proved a liar, Zimmerman insists.

--more@link--

We don’t know for sure how the physical altercation that lead to Trayvon’s death was initiated. But we do know, as confirmed fact, that the entire encounter between the two started because Zimmerman grabbed a gun and ran out of his truck to chase after a scared neighborhood kid. Even if Trayvon turned into a ninja and suckerpunched Zimmerman from behind, Zimmerman initiated the violent threats — you’re not a “victim” just because you lose a fight that you started or suffered injuries in an altercation that you caused.

Add in the fact that Zimmerman has three arrests for initiating violence against others, including against both a policeman and a prior girlfriend, and add in the fact that he was angry and cursing at the “f**cking punk/coon/goon” as he chased after him in the dark… Well. It’s pretty clear which way the character evidence is going to point, when it comes to the question of who started the physical fight.

And I don't understand what the point is in trying to discredit the girlfriend. If she were going to lie, she certainly could have come up with a story that increminated Zimmerman much worse - and in fact, her story falls in line with Zimmerman's story. So what is the point?

Question for Daddy Zimmerman: does this mean you would be fine with random strangers chasing you in the dark as you walk about your neighborhood? And that you agree that, if a stranger chases you, this means that you are not allowed to defend yourself from someone who has cornered you armed with a gun and that you should not be able to use the only thing you have, your fists? Why did Zimmerman have the right to be walking in the neighborhood with a concealed weapon and Trayvon didn't? While it is not illegal to follow someone, doing so while armed with a gun is considered an act of aggression.

CherokeeNative wrote:And I know I am beating a dead horse - but I firmly believe that GZ had his gun drawn with flash light on (either in hand or attached to his gun)...and this is why the witness who saw two figures running is distinguishable because he/she saw one figure with no flashlight, and the other (the chaser) with a flashlight. Otherwise, the witness would be of no value as DebfrmHell mentions above.

Actually I have been trying to find that part of the transcript. Her description was very vague, just two people, two movements past her window or patio door. Her porch light couldn't have been on, IMO, or she would have even seen that so I am thinking that there was a back porch light on across from her. She would need a backlight to notice anything. If she had seen a flashlight, I think she would have mentioned it. That would be a descriptor. I think after some of the grilling that Gilbreath was getting from MOM, he would have liked to rub his nose in the fact that he had this witness even if it was just a little. IMO.

I still think that TM was MIA for a minute or two. It might just be my hearing but I would (almost) swear that I heard GZ reopen that car door and settle himself back in during the call to dispatch. I think I heard the glove compartment open, most likely to get the flashlight out. I don't belive that he had his flashlight attached but only because I think his weapon was still holstered. The gun wouldn't fit the holster with the attachment. (That is totally IMO since we haven't seen what he had for a holster.) That is not to say he hadn't released the security strap that keeps the gun in place and it might explain the ease that the gun came out of the holster during the struggle. Heck, it could have fallen out on its own for all I know. Lots of questions there...

I am wondering if some of the clicks we heard were GZ putting that car in gear to cruise forward during that call. I think that may be true because he asked for them to call him so that he could tell them his exact location which means to me that he is in gear and progressing up the street. And then there is that pesky time constraint. If he was running to get ahead of TM, he doesn't really have the time. He wasn't huffing and puffing through that whole call. Only for about 30 seconds.

GZ had to already be there to meet up with him behind the townhomes and between Brandy's TH and the area where the shooting occurred.

Something drew his attention forward. I think that something might have been TM looking between buildings to see if GZ was still there and/or where he was located. Given the time frame I am not sure they weren't playing cat and mouse with each other, either, with Martin on foot and Zimmerman in his car.

I want to read the witness statements, I would love to see if there is any DNA from Trayvon Martin on that gun, and I want to get all over the ballistic/entry evidence. Darn, I want a lot of stuff... ((insert Mr. Green)) ((yes, I miss my fav smilie))

I truly believe that GZ should have been brought up on manslaughter charges and I do realize the age of Trayvon Martin plays a role in the Murder 2 charge. BUT, huge BUT, I also believe that there was political pressure to bring the greater charge just as there was political pressure to release those 911 tapes. Those tapes would have been released eventually because of the Sunshine Law but the timing of the release conveniently played into the spin being done by the media at the time.

And I think that Angela Corey refused the Grand Jury because she wasn't completely sure that she wouldn't get a "no billed" from them. I didn't think they had that strong of a Probable Cause Affidavit. Gilbreath couldn't say how that confrontation started or following scuffle under oath. Because he has no witness(es) to back that claim? If Corey had gotten no billed there would have been a huge eruption of emotions all over again. Best interest and all of that....

Another unpopular statement from me but that is what I think. So take it for what it is worth. That and a couple of bucks will get you coffee at a family restaurant but not at Starbucks!

ETA:
YAY! Ellejay!!! So very glad to see you here. Part-ay! Thank you so much for that address I have been more than curious. See avie!

DebFrmHell wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:And I know I am beating a dead horse - but I firmly believe that GZ had his gun drawn with flash light on (either in hand or attached to his gun)...and this is why the witness who saw two figures running is distinguishable because he/she saw one figure with no flashlight, and the other (the chaser) with a flashlight. Otherwise, the witness would be of no value as DebfrmHell mentions above.

Actually I have been trying to find that part of the transcript. Her description was very vague, just two people, two movements past her window or patio door. Her porch light couldn't have been on, IMO, or she would have even seen that so I am thinking that there was a back porch light on across from her. She would need a backlight to notice anything. If she had seen a flashlight, I think she would have mentioned it. That would be a descriptor. I think after some of the grilling that Gilbreath was getting from MOM, he would have liked to rub his nose in the fact that he had this witness even if it was just a little. IMO.

I still think that TM was MIA for a minute or two. It might just be my hearing but I would (almost) swear that I heard GZ reopen that car door and settle himself back in during the call to dispatch. I think I heard the glove compartment open, most likely to get the flashlight out. I don't belive that he had his flashlight attached but only because I think his weapon was still holstered. The gun wouldn't fit the holster with the attachment. (That is totally IMO since we haven't seen what he had for a holster.) That is not to say he hadn't released the security strap that keeps the gun in place and it might explain the ease that the gun came out of the holster during the struggle. Heck, it could have fallen out on its own for all I know. Lots of questions there...

I am wondering if some of the clicks we heard were GZ putting that car in gear to cruise forward during that call. I think that may be true because he asked for them to call him so that he could tell them his exact location which means to me that he is in gear and progressing up the street. And then there is that pesky time constraint. If he was running to get ahead of TM, he doesn't really have the time. He wasn't huffing and puffing through that whole call. Only for about 30 seconds.

GZ had to already be there to meet up with him behind the townhomes and between Brandy's TH and the area where the shooting occurred.

Something drew his attention forward. I think that something might have been TM looking between buildings to see if GZ was still there and/or where he was located. Given the time frame I am not sure they weren't playing cat and mouse with each other, either, with Martin on foot and Zimmerman in his car.

I want to read the witness statements, I would love to see if there is any DNA from Trayvon Martin on that gun, and I want to get all over the ballistic/entry evidence. Darn, I want a lot of stuff... ((insert Mr. Green)) ((yes, I miss my fav smilie))

I truly believe that GZ should have been brought up on manslaughter charges and I do realize the age of Trayvon Martin plays a role in the Murder 2 charge. BUT, huge BUT, I also believe that there was political pressure to bring the greater charge just as there was political pressure to release those 911 tapes. Those tapes would have been released eventually because of the Sunshine Law but the timing of the release conveniently played into the spin being done by the media at the time.

And I think that Angela Corey refused the Grand Jury because she wasn't completely sure that she wouldn't get a "no billed" from them. I didn't think they had that strong of a Probable Cause Affidavit. Gilbreath couldn't say how that confrontation started or following scuffle under oath. Because he has no witness(es) to back that claim? If Corey had gotten no billed there would have been a huge eruption of emotions all over again. Best interest and all of that....

Another unpopular statement from me but that is what I think. So take it for what it is worth. That and a couple of bucks will get you coffee at a family restaurant but not at Starbucks!

ETA:
YAY! Ellejay!!! So very glad to see you here. Part-ay! Thank you so much for that address I have been more than curious. See avie!

Gotta go to work - I'll respond when I get back

I listened to that 911 call over and over, I did not hear anthing that sounded like a car door opening or closing. It is plain to hear that Zimmerman is out of breath while talking to the 911 operator and made such a statement that "these a**holes always get away". I doubt very much that Zimmerman would have went back to get his car to follow Trayvon with. There are too many , too many, places to go where a car wouldn't fit thru. The only logical scenerio is that Zimmerman chased Trayvon by foot. Which would coinside with him telling the 911 operator for the police to call him when they got there. The car was not near, nor could it have been near where Trayvons body was found. It would make no sense for anyone that is in pursuit of someone behind buildings to try and follow them in a car. The clicking that I hear in the car could very well have been Zimmerman putting the ammo clip in place. Which would also indicate that he had all intentions of not letting Trayvon get away....premediation, second degree murder...

CherokeeNative wrote:

ellejay wrote:--RobZ Sr---everyone is a liar----except george.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html#storylink=fb#storylink=cpy
Zimmerman’s father: Our lives will never be the same
George Zimmerman’s father says he is living on the run with his wife and mother-in-law, fearful of death threats made after his son shot Trayvon Martin

--snipped--
He stays in hotels under assumed names. He pays cash so no one will look at his surname and make the connection..

His life upside down and expenses soaring, the retired magistrate wants the public to be clear that he has not received a cent of donations from anyone, despite the $204,000 his son has amassed through a website to help pay for his defense. In an interview with the Miami Herald, Zimmerman criticized the media, prosecutors and attorneys who he says have distorted information and spread lies about a man who mentored black kids and was deeply committed to his community. The Virginia native said he’s sure of one thing: his son’s innocence.

He believes medical records and photos will prove his son was injured by Trayvon when the two met in a gated community’s dark pathway. He said voice tests will show George Zimmerman didn’t lie and an eyewitness will back up his account. The girl who claims to have been on the phone talking to the teenager when the incident occurred will be proved a liar, Zimmerman insists.

--more@link--

We don’t know for sure how the physical altercation that lead to Trayvon’s death was initiated. But we do know, as confirmed fact, that the entire encounter between the two started because Zimmerman grabbed a gun and ran out of his truck to chase after a scared neighborhood kid. Even if Trayvon turned into a ninja and suckerpunched Zimmerman from behind, Zimmerman initiated the violent threats — you’re not a “victim” just because you lose a fight that you started or suffered injuries in an altercation that you caused.

Add in the fact that Zimmerman has three arrests for initiating violence against others, including against both a policeman and a prior girlfriend, and add in the fact that he was angry and cursing at the “f**cking punk/coon/goon” as he chased after him in the dark… Well. It’s pretty clear which way the character evidence is going to point, when it comes to the question of who started the physical fight.

And I don't understand what the point is in trying to discredit the girlfriend. If she were going to lie, she certainly could have come up with a story that increminated Zimmerman much worse - and in fact, her story falls in line with Zimmerman's story. So what is the point?

Question for Daddy Zimmerman: does this mean you would be fine with random strangers chasing you in the dark as you walk about your neighborhood? And that you agree that, if a stranger chases you, this means that you are not allowed to defend yourself from someone who has cornered you armed with a gun and that you should not be able to use the only thing you have, your fists? Why did Zimmerman have the right to be walking in the neighborhood with a concealed weapon and Trayvon didn't? While it is not illegal to follow someone, doing so while armed with a gun is considered an act of aggression.

My theory is that Zimmerman went against the dispatcher instruction not to follow Trayvon because he was determined to make a "citizen's arrest" before the police arrived, he wanted to look like a "hero", and when he tried to restrain Trayvon, Trayvon fought for his life. If Zimmerman had any injuries, they were inflicted because Trayvon was trying to defend himself against an unwarranted attack by a stranger.

I am not going to venture into personal territory, but I know what Trayvon must have been feeling when he was being followed by someone that he perceived as dangerous and represented a potential threat to his life, as a matter of fact, he ended up dying by a bullet wound, his death could have been prevented if Zimmerman would have stayed in his car instead of following him behind the twonshouses where Trayvon was walking on his way to the house where he was staying.

The Trayvon Martin story is extremely sad, I can only imagine the sorrow his parents are experiencing by the loss of their son, the 17 years old boy was not what Zimmerman perceived him to be, he happened to be at the wrong place when he crossed path with an overzealous vigilante who profiled him as a criminal, and was determined not to let him get away.

Gizmo711 wrote:I listened to that 911 call over and over, I did not hear anthing that sounded like a car door opening or closing. It is plain to hear that Zimmerman is out of breath while talking to the 911 operator and made such a statement that "these a**holes always get away". I doubt very much that Zimmerman would have went back to get his car to follow Trayvon with. There are too many , too many, places to go where a car wouldn't fit thru. The only logical scenerio is that Zimmerman chased Trayvon by foot. Which would coinside with him telling the 911 operator for the police to call him when they got there. The car was not near, nor could it have been near where Trayvons body was found. It would make no sense for anyone that is in pursuit of someone behind buildings to try and follow them in a car. The clicking that I hear in the car could very well have been Zimmerman putting the ammo clip in place. Which would also indicate that he had all intentions of not letting Trayvon get away....premediation, second degree murder...

The State of Florida said there was no premeditation. Their sticking point is the depraved mind and age of victim.

COUNT 1: IN THE COUNTY OF SEMINOLE, STATE OF FLORIDA, on February 26, 2012, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, did unlawfully and by an act imminently dangerous to another, and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without and premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, kill TRAYVON MARTIN...

@Alessandra, I really think that the meeting of these two individuals was a perfect storm. GZ thinks he is suspicious. In return, TM notices GZ watching him and by taking evasive actions, confirmed to GZ that he is right.

@Ellejay, that address raises all kinds of questions now that I can see that Taafe lived by the shortcut.

@Freckles, That could be where Taafe comes into play. Not at the scene as a second person but as the instigator of this whole case. He might have seen TM using the shortcut and called GZ to tell him of his suspicions which prompted GZ to check out TM. Would GZ have percieved TM as suspicious if he wasn't pre-informed that TM was suspicious as deemed by Frank Taafe?

ellejay wrote:--RobZ Sr---everyone is a liar----except george.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html#storylink=fb#storylink=cpy
Zimmerman’s father: Our lives will never be the same
George Zimmerman’s father says he is living on the run with his wife and mother-in-law, fearful of death threats made after his son shot Trayvon Martin

--snipped--
He stays in hotels under assumed names. He pays cash so no one will look at his surname and make the connection..

His life upside down and expenses soaring, the retired magistrate wants the public to be clear that he has not received a cent of donations from anyone, despite the $204,000 his son has amassed through a website to help pay for his defense. In an interview with the Miami Herald, Zimmerman criticized the media, prosecutors and attorneys who he says have distorted information and spread lies about a man who mentored black kids and was deeply committed to his community. The Virginia native said he’s sure of one thing: his son’s innocence.

He believes medical records and photos will prove his son was injured by Trayvon when the two met in a gated community’s dark pathway. He said voice tests will show George Zimmerman didn’t lie and an eyewitness will back up his account. The girl who claims to have been on the phone talking to the teenager when the incident occurred will be proved a liar, Zimmerman insists.

--more@link--

I thought is own attorney stated that he got 50,000 of the 204,000, so is his own attorney lying. He makes it sound like his attorney is taking all the money, but I thought it was for his defense and living expenses. It sounds like George is not very happy with his attorney taking over his pay pal account, according to his father, because it would be strange statement to make about the money coming in.

Hi ellejay, I'm glad you found us! Everyone's been looking for you.
I hope you enjoy it here.

snowbird wrote:

ellejay wrote:--RobZ Sr---everyone is a liar----except george.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html#storylink=fb#storylink=cpy
Zimmerman’s father: Our lives will never be the same
George Zimmerman’s father says he is living on the run with his wife and mother-in-law, fearful of death threats made after his son shot Trayvon Martin

--snipped--
He stays in hotels under assumed names. He pays cash so no one will look at his surname and make the connection..

His life upside down and expenses soaring, the retired magistrate wants the public to be clear that he has not received a cent of donations from anyone, despite the $204,000 his son has amassed through a website to help pay for his defense. In an interview with the Miami Herald, Zimmerman criticized the media, prosecutors and attorneys who he says have distorted information and spread lies about a man who mentored black kids and was deeply committed to his community. The Virginia native said he’s sure of one thing: his son’s innocence.

He believes medical records and photos will prove his son was injured by Trayvon when the two met in a gated community’s dark pathway. He said voice tests will show George Zimmerman didn’t lie and an eyewitness will back up his account. The girl who claims to have been on the phone talking to the teenager when the incident occurred will be proved a liar, Zimmerman insists.

--more@link--

I thought is own attorney stated that he got 50,000 of the 204,000, so is his own attorney lying. He makes it sound like his attorney is taking all the money, but I thought it was for his defense and living expenses. It sounds like George is not very happy with his attorney taking over his pay pal account, according to his father, because it would be strange statement to make about the money coming in.

As I read that, I thought that the father was talking about actions that he, his wife and MIL are the ones in the hotels, etc. Not GZ. That RZ Sr. has not gotten any assistance financially to continue that pattern from the GZFund.

ellejay wrote:--RobZ Sr---everyone is a liar----except george.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html#storylink=fb#storylink=cpy
Zimmerman’s father: Our lives will never be the same
George Zimmerman’s father says he is living on the run with his wife and mother-in-law, fearful of death threats made after his son shot Trayvon Martin

--snipped--
He stays in hotels under assumed names. He pays cash so no one will look at his surname and make the connection..

His life upside down and expenses soaring, the retired magistrate wants the public to be clear that he has not received a cent of donations from anyone, despite the $204,000 his son has amassed through a website to help pay for his defense. In an interview with the Miami Herald, Zimmerman criticized the media, prosecutors and attorneys who he says have distorted information and spread lies about a man who mentored black kids and was deeply committed to his community. The Virginia native said he’s sure of one thing: his son’s innocence.

He believes medical records and photos will prove his son was injured by Trayvon when the two met in a gated community’s dark pathway. He said voice tests will show George Zimmerman didn’t lie and an eyewitness will back up his account. The girl who claims to have been on the phone talking to the teenager when the incident occurred will be proved a liar, Zimmerman insists.

--more@link--

Does Zimmerman's father ever stop to think how he would feel if it was his son the one who was shot and killed?

These people have zero sympathy for what happened to Trayvon and what happened to his family as a result of his death.

The Special Prosecutor is doing what the Sanford Police failed to do. I guess it would have been perfectly alright if Trayvon's death would have been ignored. Everyone of them would have been able to move on with their lives if Zimmerman got away with impunity.

So Zimmermans father is still insisting that Trayvons gf was not on the phone with Trayvon? The phone records will prove it. And the gf couldn't possibly make up anything because she didn'
t see anything, only what she heard and it certainly coinsides with Zimmerman going after Trayvon.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

ellejay wrote:--RobZ Sr---everyone is a liar----except george.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html#storylink=fb#storylink=cpy
Zimmerman’s father: Our lives will never be the same
George Zimmerman’s father says he is living on the run with his wife and mother-in-law, fearful of death threats made after his son shot Trayvon Martin

--snipped--
He stays in hotels under assumed names. He pays cash so no one will look at his surname and make the connection..

His life upside down and expenses soaring, the retired magistrate wants the public to be clear that he has not received a cent of donations from anyone, despite the $204,000 his son has amassed through a website to help pay for his defense. In an interview with the Miami Herald, Zimmerman criticized the media, prosecutors and attorneys who he says have distorted information and spread lies about a man who mentored black kids and was deeply committed to his community. The Virginia native said he’s sure of one thing: his son’s innocence.

He believes medical records and photos will prove his son was injured by Trayvon when the two met in a gated community’s dark pathway. He said voice tests will show George Zimmerman didn’t lie and an eyewitness will back up his account. The girl who claims to have been on the phone talking to the teenager when the incident occurred will be proved a liar, Zimmerman insists.

--more@link--

Does Zimmerman's father ever stop to think how he would feel if it was his son the one who was shot and killed?

These people have zero sympathy for what happened to Trayvon and what happened to his family as a result of his death.

The Special Prosecutor is doing what the Sanford Police failed to do. I guess it would have been perfectly alright if Trayvon's death would have been ignored. Everyone of them would have been able to move on with their lives if Zimmerman got away with impunity.

Allesandra, you are absolutely correct. The Zimmermans have no sympathy for Trayvons death. All they are thinking about is Georgie. They will never own up to what really took place behind those buildings. They really don't give a damn.

I did hear this morning that there is a surveilance camera by the club house. I'm sure that the time in documented and it may have picked up something or it wouldn't be in the doc's. It may not have picked up the actual altercation but may very well have picked up who was chasing who. The prosecutor is saying that GZ statements contradict themselves.

Here goes another trial that I can't wait to happen. I want so bad to see justice done.

The news is also stating that the FBI's investigation is still going. That's a good sign.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

ellejay wrote:--RobZ Sr---everyone is a liar----except george.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html#storylink=fb#storylink=cpy
Zimmerman’s father: Our lives will never be the same
George Zimmerman’s father says he is living on the run with his wife and mother-in-law, fearful of death threats made after his son shot Trayvon Martin

--snipped--
He stays in hotels under assumed names. He pays cash so no one will look at his surname and make the connection..

His life upside down and expenses soaring, the retired magistrate wants the public to be clear that he has not received a cent of donations from anyone, despite the $204,000 his son has amassed through a website to help pay for his defense. In an interview with the Miami Herald, Zimmerman criticized the media, prosecutors and attorneys who he says have distorted information and spread lies about a man who mentored black kids and was deeply committed to his community. The Virginia native said he’s sure of one thing: his son’s innocence.

He believes medical records and photos will prove his son was injured by Trayvon when the two met in a gated community’s dark pathway. He said voice tests will show George Zimmerman didn’t lie and an eyewitness will back up his account. The girl who claims to have been on the phone talking to the teenager when the incident occurred will be proved a liar, Zimmerman insists.

--more@link--

Does Zimmerman's father ever stop to think how he would feel if it was his son the one who was shot and killed?

These people have zero sympathy for what happened to Trayvon and what happened to his family as a result of his death.

The Special Prosecutor is doing what the Sanford Police failed to do. I guess it would have been perfectly all right if Trayvon's death would have been ignored. Everyone of them would have been able to move on with their lives if Zimmerman got away with impunity.

I think that is why I have no good feeling for this family. They make it very hard to think of this as an accident, something that just went very wrong. There is a boy dead and no feeling for this person family and all he was doing was walking home from the store. I can understand taking up for your son or being in him but they are so brass about the way the talk about the victim. It is poor me, look at me I have it so bad.

Gizmo711 wrote:So Zimmermans father is still insisting that Trayvons gf was not on the phone with Trayvon? The phone records will prove it. And the gf couldn't possibly make up anything because she didn'
t see anything, only what she heard and it certainly coinsides with Zimmerman going after Trayvon.

Perhaps RZ doubts the girlfriend's account as opposed to contesting whether or not she was on the phone with him when the altercation between GZ and TM began? After all, surely he knows the prosecution would not call her as a witness if they didn't have phone records verifying that she and TM were talking on the phone at that point in time. Many people find the fact that the girlfriend did not try to contact the police or TM's family after hearing what she claims to have heard a bit hinky. It was two or three weeks after TM died that Tracy Martin tracked her down, and even then she talked to the Martin family attorney, but refused to speak to reporters or police. Her actions do not match what one would expect of a young girl who heard her boyfriend get in an altercation over the phone, then found out he had been shot and killed. I see plenty of room for skepticism here.

DebFrmHell wrote:

snowbird wrote:

ellejay wrote:--RobZ Sr---everyone is a liar----except george.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html#storylink=fb#storylink=cpy
Zimmerman’s father: Our lives will never be the same
George Zimmerman’s father says he is living on the run with his wife and mother-in-law, fearful of death threats made after his son shot Trayvon Martin

--snipped--
He stays in hotels under assumed names. He pays cash so no one will look at his surname and make the connection..

His life upside down and expenses soaring, the retired magistrate wants the public to be clear that he has not received a cent of donations from anyone, despite the $204,000 his son has amassed through a website to help pay for his defense. In an interview with the Miami Herald, Zimmerman criticized the media, prosecutors and attorneys who he says have distorted information and spread lies about a man who mentored black kids and was deeply committed to his community. The Virginia native said he’s sure of one thing: his son’s innocence.

He believes medical records and photos will prove his son was injured by Trayvon when the two met in a gated community’s dark pathway. He said voice tests will show George Zimmerman didn’t lie and an eyewitness will back up his account. The girl who claims to have been on the phone talking to the teenager when the incident occurred will be proved a liar, Zimmerman insists.

--more@link--

I thought is own attorney stated that he got 50,000 of the 204,000, so is his own attorney lying. He makes it sound like his attorney is taking all the money, but I thought it was for his defense and living expenses. It sounds like George is not very happy with his attorney taking over his pay pal account, according to his father, because it would be strange statement to make about the money coming in.

As I read that, I thought that the father was talking about actions that he, his wife and MIL are the ones in the hotels, etc. Not GZ. That RZ Sr. has not gotten any assistance financially to continue that pattern from the GZFund.

You are right, I miss read.

DebFrmHell wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:I listened to that 911 call over and over, I did not hear anthing that sounded like a car door opening or closing. It is plain to hear that Zimmerman is out of breath while talking to the 911 operator and made such a statement that "these a**holes always get away". I doubt very much that Zimmerman would have went back to get his car to follow Trayvon with. There are too many , too many, places to go where a car wouldn't fit thru. The only logical scenerio is that Zimmerman chased Trayvon by foot. Which would coinside with him telling the 911 operator for the police to call him when they got there. The car was not near, nor could it have been near where Trayvons body was found. It would make no sense for anyone that is in pursuit of someone behind buildings to try and follow them in a car. The clicking that I hear in the car could very well have been Zimmerman putting the ammo clip in place. Which would also indicate that he had all intentions of not letting Trayvon get away....premediation, second degree murder...

The State of Florida said there was no premeditation. Their sticking point is the depraved mind and age of victim.

COUNT 1: IN THE COUNTY OF SEMINOLE, STATE OF FLORIDA, on February 26, 2012, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, did unlawfully and by an act imminently dangerous to another, and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without and premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, kill TRAYVON MARTIN...

@Alessandra, I really think that the meeting of these two individuals was a perfect storm. GZ thinks he is suspicious. In return, TM notices GZ watching him and by taking evasive actions, confirmed to GZ that he is right.

@Ellejay, that address raises all kinds of questions now that I can see that Taafe lived by the shortcut.

@Freckles, That could be where Taafe comes into play. Not at the scene as a second person but as the instigator of this whole case. He might have seen TM using the shortcut and called GZ to tell him of his suspicions which prompted GZ to check out TM. Would GZ have percieved TM as suspicious if he wasn't pre-informed that TM was suspicious as deemed by Frank Taafe?

Trayvon's actions might have been perceived by Zimmerman as "suspicious" because he had a preconceived idea that Trayvon was in "his" neighborhood to commit a felony. What Martin did when he ran away, is what you are advised to do when you are walking alone and you are being followed by a stranger. You run to put ground between you and the person and try to reach a safe location, Trayvon was heading toward Brandy's house.

According to some reports, Martin told his girlfriend over the phone that he had "lost the guy" when he suddenly reappeared and confronted him.

COUNT 1: IN THE COUNTY OF SEMINOLE, STATE OF FLORIDA, on February 26, 2012, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, did unlawfully and by an act imminently dangerous to another, and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without and premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, kill TRAYVON MARTIN...

Second degree murder does not require premeditation.

"The essential elements of second-degree murder differ from those of first degree murder. The criminal act for both crimes is the same: both are killings of another person. What separates the two is the perpetrators mental state at the time of the killing.

First degree murder involves a premeditated killing. In other words, the killer made a plan to kill the victim and then carried that plan out. Second degree murder does not require premeditation, however. Instead, there are three typical situations that can constitute second degree murder:

•A killing done impulsively without premeditation, but with malice aforethought
•A killing that results from an act intended to cause serious bodily harm
•A killing that results from an act that demonstrates the perpetrators depraved indifference to human life

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/second-degree-murder-overview.html

Gizmo711 wrote:So Zimmermans father is still insisting that Trayvons gf was not on the phone with Trayvon? The phone records will prove it. And the gf couldn't possibly make up anything because she didn'
t see anything, only what she heard and it certainly coinsides with Zimmerman going after Trayvon.

They have the phone records and she was interviewed five times, I believe that she was interviewed twice by the police, once by the FBI, and two times by the Special Prosecutor's investigators.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Does Zimmerman's father ever stop to think how he would feel if it was his son the one who was shot and killed?

These people have zero sympathy for what happened to Trayvon and what happened to his family as a result of his death.

The Special Prosecutor is doing what the Sanford Police failed to do. I guess it would have been perfectly alright if Trayvon's death would have been ignored. Everyone of them would have been able to move on with their lives if Zimmerman got away with impunity.

--robZ Sr. clearly does not think before he speaks.


"He said he saw his son when he was released from jail, but won’t say where he is living, only that he is as far away as Las Vegas. George, he said, is “killing time” waiting for his trial and living on donations.

Zimmerman insisted the family did not intentionally mislead the court at the bond hearing, where no one mentioned the donations. He said George did not know how much was in the account, because a friend administered it. ( that's odd robZ Sr----shellie says his brother robZ Jr was in charge of it..)

“I look at him [george] and I see someone who goes to work every day, goes to school and is married,” Zimmerman said. He harbors no ill will toward Trayvon Martin’s family, but acknowledges that he’s angry at special prosecutor Angela Corey and Benjamin Crump, the Martin family attorney.

“No parent can completely control their child. I believe Trayvon made a bad decision,” he said. “When I was young, I had my issues. I would have liked to see Trayvon change his life and get married and achieve his dreams. He made a decision that changed that, and things didn’t work out for anybody.” ( things? seriously? thing1--george is charged w/ murder2...thing2--trayvon is dead.)

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569_p2/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html

I would like to see GZs phone records starting from that night. Did I read right and they have only records starting in march? Excuse an old lady if this has been discussed

ellejay wrote:--RobZ Sr---everyone is a liar----except george.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html#storylink=fb#storylink=cpy
Zimmerman’s father: Our lives will never be the same
George Zimmerman’s father says he is living on the run with his wife and mother-in-law, fearful of death threats made after his son shot Trayvon Martin

--snipped--
He stays in hotels under assumed names. He pays cash so no one will look at his surname and make the connection..

His life upside down and expenses soaring, the retired magistrate wants the public to be clear that he has not received a cent of donations from anyone, despite the $204,000 his son has amassed through a website to help pay for his defense. In an interview with the Miami Herald, Zimmerman criticized the media, prosecutors and attorneys who he says have distorted information and spread lies about a man who mentored black kids and was deeply committed to his community. The Virginia native said he’s sure of one thing: his son’s innocence.

He believes medical records and photos will prove his son was injured by Trayvon when the two met in a gated community’s dark pathway. He said voice tests will show George Zimmerman didn’t lie and an eyewitness will back up his account. The girl who claims to have been on the phone talking to the teenager when the incident occurred will be proved a liar, Zimmerman insists.

--more@link--

I'm so glad you are here! Like many others, I greatly appreciate your contributions to the discussion.

There were a few other interesting tidbits in that article about RZ, addressing questions raised in the past:

After giving up his gun, clothes and shoes to police, George Zimmerman gave at least three statements. Pictures were taken of his injuries. “I saw him the next morning. He looked like hell. I said, ‘Who beat you up?’ Zimmerman said. “His nose was swollen, he had a protective thing over it, and he had a cut lip and two cuts on the back of his head.”

So....the police did get his clothes, shoes, and gun, and they did take pictures of his injuries. Also, note that RZ says he saw him the next morning; I know some believe he was at the police station that night, personally intervening to get his son off the hook.

Zimmerman insisted that no one in the Sanford Police or the Seminole County prosecutor’s office knew he was a retired judge. He denied ever meeting with the original prosecutor on the case, Norm Wolfinger. He said he only met once with a prosecutor’s investigator, when he gave a sworn statement insisting that the voice he heard on a 911 tape calling for help was George’s.

This confirms what I suspected...RZ's former career as a magistrate in Virginia had no bearing on what happened in Sanford.

ellejay wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Does Zimmerman's father ever stop to think how he would feel if it was his son the one who was shot and killed?

These people have zero sympathy for what happened to Trayvon and what happened to his family as a result of his death.

The Special Prosecutor is doing what the Sanford Police failed to do. I guess it would have been perfectly alright if Trayvon's death would have been ignored. Everyone of them would have been able to move on with their lives if Zimmerman got away with impunity.

--robZ Sr. clearly does not think before he speaks.


"He said he saw his son when he was released from jail, but won’t say where he is living, only that he is as far away as Las Vegas. George, he said, is “killing time” waiting for his trial and living on donations.

Zimmerman insisted the family did not intentionally mislead the court at the bond hearing, where no one mentioned the donations. He said George did not know how much was in the account, because a friend administered it. ( that's odd robZ Sr----shellie says his brother robZ Jr was in charge of it..)

“I look at him [george] and I see someone who goes to work every day, goes to school and is married,” Zimmerman said. He harbors no ill will toward Trayvon Martin’s family, but acknowledges that he’s angry at special prosecutor Angela Corey and Benjamin Crump, the Martin family attorney.

“No parent can completely control their child. I believe Trayvon made a bad decision,” he said. “When I was young, I had my issues. I would have liked to see Trayvon change his life and get married and achieve his dreams. He made a decision that changed that, and things didn’t work out for anybody.” ( things? seriously? thing1--george is charged w/ murder2...thing2--trayvon is dead.)

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569_p2/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html

I agree with the bolded above...no matter how bad things are for the Zimmermans, they still have their son. I think RZ should refrain from talking to the media.

ladytwee wrote:I would like to see GZs phone records starting from that night. Did I read right and they have only
records starting in march? Excuse an old lady if this has been discussed

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-george-zimmernman-omara-gets-discovery-20120514_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-rachel-fugate

Also included in the evidence are phone records — Zimmerman's from Feb. 20 to Feb. 28 and from March 7 to March 22, Trayvon's from Jan. 1 through March 1, and those of an unnamed witness labeled "W8" from Feb. 26 through April 2.

Twinkle wrote:

ellejay wrote:--RobZ Sr---everyone is a liar----except george.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html#storylink=fb#storylink=cpy
Zimmerman’s father: Our lives will never be the same
George Zimmerman’s father says he is living on the run with his wife and mother-in-law, fearful of death threats made after his son shot Trayvon Martin

--snipped--
He stays in hotels under assumed names. He pays cash so no one will look at his surname and make the connection..

His life upside down and expenses soaring, the retired magistrate wants the public to be clear that he has not received a cent of donations from anyone, despite the $204,000 his son has amassed through a website to help pay for his defense. In an interview with the Miami Herald, Zimmerman criticized the media, prosecutors and attorneys who he says have distorted information and spread lies about a man who mentored black kids and was deeply committed to his community. The Virginia native said he’s sure of one thing: his son’s innocence.

He believes medical records and photos will prove his son was injured by Trayvon when the two met in a gated community’s dark pathway. He said voice tests will show George Zimmerman didn’t lie and an eyewitness will back up his account. The girl who claims to have been on the phone talking to the teenager when the incident occurred will be proved a liar, Zimmerman insists.

--more@link--

I'm so glad you are here! Like many others, I greatly appreciate your contributions to the discussion.

There were a few other interesting tidbits in that article about RZ, addressing questions raised in the past:

After giving up his gun, clothes and shoes to police, George Zimmerman gave at least three statements. Pictures were taken of his injuries. “I saw him the next morning. He looked like hell. I said, ‘Who beat you up?’ Zimmerman said. “His nose was swollen, he had a protective thing over it, and he had a cut lip and two cuts on the back of his head.”

So....the police did get his clothes, shoes, and gun, and they did take pictures of his injuries. Also, note that RZ says he saw him the next morning; I know some believe he was at the police station that night, personally intervening to get his son off the hook.

I don't think RZ had much pull either. But saying he saw him the next morning is no proof he wasn't there to pick up GZ -- do we yet know how GZ got home? I've known a few people picked up for questioning before and they did NOT get chauffered back home and had to hitch their own ride. Also - any time after midnight IS the next morning. 1AM is the next morning. And it was said that GZ was taken in for several hours of questioning. This might be moot and he might not have been there - but it also doesn't show that he wasn't there either.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:So Zimmermans father is still insisting that Trayvons gf was not on the phone with Trayvon? The phone records will prove it. And the gf couldn't possibly make up anything because she didn't see anything, only what she heard and it certainly coinsides with Zimmerman going after Trayvon.

They have the phone records and she was interviewed five times, I believe that she was interviewed twice by the police, once by the FBI, and two times by the Special Prosecutor's investigators.

Do you remember where you read that she was interviewed five times by law enforcement? I had heard that she actually refused to be interviewed by any of them until she was subpoenaed by the special prosecutor. According to the Orlando Sentinel article describing the evidence provided to O'Mara:

W8 gave two statements — one to prosecutors and one to Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump, which suggests W8 may be the girl described by Crump as Trayvon's girlfriend.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-george-zimmernman-omara-gets-discovery-20120514_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-rachel-fugate

ellejay wrote:

ladytwee wrote:I would like to see GZs phone records starting from that night. Did I read right and they have only
records starting in march? Excuse an old lady if this has been discussed

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-george-zimmernman-omara-gets-discovery-20120514_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-rachel-fugate

Also included in the evidence are phone records — Zimmerman's from Feb. 20 to Feb. 28 and from March 7 to March 22, Trayvon's from Jan. 1 through March 1, and those of an unnamed witness labeled "W8" from Feb. 26 through April 2.

Also Ellejay (GREAT to see you here btw!!!!) they said W8 gave two statements to the prosecutors office so they deduct that W8 is the gf of Trayvon. Perhaps since she's a minor, they'd withhold her name??

Stolat wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

After giving up his gun, clothes and shoes to police, George Zimmerman gave at least three statements. Pictures were taken of his injuries. “I saw him the next morning. He looked like hell. I said, ‘Who beat you up?’ Zimmerman said. “His nose was swollen, he had a protective thing over it, and he had a cut lip and two cuts on the back of his head.”

So....the police did get his clothes, shoes, and gun, and they did take pictures of his injuries. Also, note that RZ says he saw him the next morning; I know some believe he was at the police station that night, personally intervening to get his son off the hook.

I don't think RZ had much pull either. But saying he saw him the next morning is no proof he wasn't there to pick up GZ -- do we yet know how GZ got home? I've known a few people picked up for questioning before and they did NOT get chauffered back home and had to hitch their own ride. Also - any time after midnight IS the next morning. 1AM is the next morning. And it was said that GZ was taken in for several hours of questioning. This might be moot and he might not have been there - but it also doesn't show that he wasn't there either.

This is more implication than hard, cold evidence, but since GZ is a 28 year old married man, it stands to reason that he would call his wife to come get him rather than his father, who had after all been recovering from some sort of heart-related problem. I surely would not drag my parents out of bed in the middle of the night if my spouse or a sibling were available to help. Also, if RZ had seen his son the night of the incident, I would think he would have said "I saw him that night". It would be foolish for him to lie about something like this, since there would be plenty of witnesses to vouch for who was there, and who came to pick up GZ.

ellejay wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Does Zimmerman's father ever stop to think how he would feel if it was his son the one who was shot and killed?

These people have zero sympathy for what happened to Trayvon and what happened to his family as a result of his death.

The Special Prosecutor is doing what the Sanford Police failed to do. I guess it would have been perfectly alright if Trayvon's death would have been ignored. Everyone of them would have been able to move on with their lives if Zimmerman got away with impunity.

--robZ Sr. clearly does not think before he speaks.


"He said he saw his son when he was released from jail, but won’t say where he is living, only that he is as far away as Las Vegas. George, he said, is “killing time” waiting for his trial and living on donations.

Zimmerman insisted the family did not intentionally mislead the court at the bond hearing, where no one mentioned the donations. He said George did not know how much was in the account, because a friend administered it. ( that's odd robZ Sr----shellie says his brother robZ Jr was in charge of it..)

“I look at him [george] and I see someone who goes to work every day, goes to school and is married,” Zimmerman said. He harbors no ill will toward Trayvon Martin’s family, but acknowledges that he’s angry at special prosecutor Angela Corey and Benjamin Crump, the Martin family attorney.

“No parent can completely control their child. I believe Trayvon made a bad decision,” he said. “When I was young, I had my issues. I would have liked to see Trayvon change his life and get married and achieve his dreams. He made a decision that changed that, and things didn’t work out for anybody.” ( things? seriously? thing1--george is charged w/ murder2...thing2--trayvon is dead.)

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569_p2/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html

Everything the Zimmermans say make it worse and worse for their darling Georgie. They show no sympathy for Trayvons parenst, it's as though Trayvon wasn't even a human being in their mind. They are assuming just what Georgie assumed that night, which has gotten Georgie in a mess of trouble. But the entire family is still on the same mind set.. It speaks vulumns for whay Georgie acted like he did on that night...

The FBI is still investigating to see if this could be a hate crime. If it comes back that it is, than Georgie is in an even bigger mess. One would think by now that their blaming the victim should be ceased, but they are still going at it. To me, it describes hate.

Twinkle wrote:

Stolat wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

After giving up his gun, clothes and shoes to police, George Zimmerman gave at least three statements. Pictures were taken of his injuries. “I saw him the next morning. He looked like hell. I said, ‘Who beat you up?’ Zimmerman said. “His nose was swollen, he had a protective thing over it, and he had a cut lip and two cuts on the back of his head.”

So....the police did get his clothes, shoes, and gun, and they did take pictures of his injuries. Also, note that RZ says he saw him the next morning; I know some believe he was at the police station that night, personally intervening to get his son off the hook.

I don't think RZ had much pull either. But saying he saw him the next morning is no proof he wasn't there to pick up GZ -- do we yet know how GZ got home? I've known a few people picked up for questioning before and they did NOT get chauffered back home and had to hitch their own ride. Also - any time after midnight IS the next morning. 1AM is the next morning. And it was said that GZ was taken in for several hours of questioning. This might be moot and he might not have been there - but it also doesn't show that he wasn't there either.

This is more implication than hard, cold evidence, but since GZ is a 28 year old married man, it stands to reason that he would call his wife to come get him rather than his father, who had after all been recovering from some sort of heart-related problem. I surely would not drag my parents out of bed in the middle of the night if my spouse or a sibling were available to help. Also, if RZ had seen his son the night of the incident, I would think he would have said "I saw him that night". It would be foolish for him to lie about something like this, since there would be plenty of witnesses to vouch for who was there, and who came to pick up GZ.

I get you - I'm just saying if he showed up at 11pm he could say he saw them that night. If he didn't get to pick up GZ until 3 or 4am then he would not be lying if he saw him next morning.

And I beg to disagree about GZ and his parents's coattails. *Normal* adult men do what you describe above. But we're talking about GZ - the same GZ who let his parents second-mortgage their house to bail him out when he had $200k in a paypal account and obviously knew what he had to have already spent $50,000 on incidentals.

And I think it will be interesting to find out from GZ's phone records who exactly it was he was pictured on the phone with in the photograph at the crime scene -- we all know it wasn't his wife that he called first because he commanded a neighbor to do that for him. So this is the same guy who doesn't even call his own wife to tell her he murdered someone, but rather he's chatting on the phone to someone else. I don't yet have enough observed behavioral patterns to assume he called his wife in jail either. He may have and that's certainly a possibility but I won't go aruguing staunchly on it given his past unexplainable behavior - his actions show he is capable of doing just about nothing that one would expect from *normal* - including staying in his flippin car .... but that's just my opinion, and I respect yours. NOTE: I'm not saying *you* are arguing -- I'm just saying in general I can't yet firmly stand behind the notion yet.

ellejay wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Does Zimmerman's father ever stop to think how he would feel if it was his son the one who was shot and killed?

These people have zero sympathy for what happened to Trayvon and what happened to his family as a result of his death.

The Special Prosecutor is doing what the Sanford Police failed to do. I guess it would have been perfectly alright if Trayvon's death would have been ignored. Everyone of them would have been able to move on with their lives if Zimmerman got away with impunity.

--robZ Sr. clearly does not think before he speaks.


"He said he saw his son when he was released from jail, but won’t say where he is living, only that he is as far away as Las Vegas. George, he said, is “killing time” waiting for his trial and living on donations.

Zimmerman insisted the family did not intentionally mislead the court at the bond hearing, where no one mentioned the donations. He said George did not know how much was in the account, because a friend administered it. ( that's odd robZ Sr----shellie says his brother robZ Jr was in charge of it..)

“I look at him [george] and I see someone who goes to work every day, goes to school and is married,” Zimmerman said. He harbors no ill will toward Trayvon Martin’s family, but acknowledges that he’s angry at special prosecutor Angela Corey and Benjamin Crump, the Martin family attorney.

“No parent can completely control their child. I believe Trayvon made a bad decision,” he said. “When I was young, I had my issues. I would have liked to see Trayvon change his life and get married and achieve his dreams. He made a decision that changed that, and things didn’t work out for anybody.” ( things? seriously? thing1--george is charged w/ murder2...thing2--trayvon is dead.)

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799569_p2/zimmermans-father-our-lives-will.html

I am not impressed by his discourse, I understand that he is trying to defend his son, but Zimmerman was the one who made the conscious decision to follow Trayvon Martin, his decision resulted in Trayvon's death. Blaming the victim and the victim's family is not going to change the facts.

Twinkle wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:So Zimmermans father is still insisting that Trayvons gf was not on the phone with Trayvon? The phone records will prove it. And the gf couldn't possibly make up anything because she didn't see anything, only what she heard and it certainly coinsides with Zimmerman going after Trayvon.

They have the phone records and she was interviewed five times, I believe that she was interviewed twice by the police, once by the FBI, and two times by the Special Prosecutor's investigators.

Do you remember where you read that she was interviewed five times by law enforcement? I had heard that she actually refused to be interviewed by any of them until she was subpoenaed by the special prosecutor. According to the Orlando Sentinel article describing the evidence provided to O'Mara:

W8 gave two statements — one to prosecutors and one to Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump, which suggests W8 may be the girl described by Crump as Trayvon's girlfriend.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-george-zimmernman-omara-gets-discovery-20120514_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-rachel-fugate

I read it somewhere before the prosecutors filed their list of witnesses, the information may not be accurate.

Stolat wrote:

Also Ellejay (GREAT to see you here btw!!!!) they said W8 gave two statements to the prosecutors office so they deduct that W8 is the gf of Trayvon. Perhaps since she's a minor, they'd withhold her name??

--all but 6 of the civilian witnesses are listed by number----W1-W22.

https://twitter.com/#!/bobkealing

State's evidence list, #Zimmerman murder case has 22 civilian witness names redacted. Referred to by numbers 1-22. #TrayvonMartin. @WESH.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-george-zimmernman-omara-gets-discovery-20120514_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-rachel-fugate

Most names were redacted from the witness and evidence document obtained by the Orlando Sentinel, but six civilian witnesses were named: Trayvon's parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin; his brother, Jahvarius Fulton; and Zimmerman's neighbor Frank Taaffe, friend Joe Oliver and father, Robert Zimmerman.