George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

KimmyK wrote:

art tart wrote:Kimmy -It bothers me because it is more lies that have been generated by the Handler's. It matters because in fact Tracy is not cooperating, nor is Crump, more lies from the Handler's.

why does MOM want the phone records?

In addition to revealing whom the high school junior talked with and when and what text messages he sent and received, it could be an electronic record of what he thought — captured in email, videos and photos — and the websites he visited.


imo, this is the very reason Tracy does not want to give up the pin.

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-11-27/story/key-piece-evidence-trayvon-martin-case-remains-locked#ixzz2FF9jIhnZ

In addition to revealing whom the high school junior talked with and when and what text messages he sent and received, (ALL available on a T-mobile bill without a PIN, I have T-mobile).

It could be an electronic record of what he thought — captured in email, videos and photos — and the websites he visited. I doubt he was taking pictures and e-mailing about GZ THAT night, seems he was pretty much just on the phone with DeeDee, IMO, SMEAR CAMPAIGN.

art tart wrote:

justanopinion wrote:@ Alessandra thank you the links provided were very helpful.

I do not understand why anyone would hinder the investigation of the death of their child. There were things I wish others had not seen when my child died... but I did nothing to cover those things up.. in fact I made a point of bringing those things to the attention of the LE involved so that things could be resolved in a timely manner. JMO JMO

justanopinion - I know it must have been difficult for you, but you wanted the truth in the investigation of losing your child, an unimaginable loss for us that have not had children die.

The thing about Tracy refusing to share the pin number that grates on my nerves are the ridiculous Media Blitz appearances that the Handler's claim "they are cooperating fully with LE as well as Tracy and Sabrina." ANOTHER, blatant, handler lie to the public. Cooperating would be providing the pin number. Then, Tracy has said "he is not cooperating."

imo, there is information that Tracy nor Sabrina want released on that phone that is going to put Trayvon in possibly a negative light, not the image that they have put forth in the MEDIA. Does that make Trayvon guilty of anything? Absolutely not. Does it portray who Trayvon was? imo, yes. Just like the tweets give insight into Trayvon's personality.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

art tart wrote:

justanopinion - I know it must have been difficult for you, but you wanted the truth in the investigation of losing your child, an unimaginable loss for us that have not had children die.

The thing about Tracy refusing to share the pin number that grates on my nerves are the ridiculous Media Blitz appearances that the Handler's claim "they are cooperating fully with LE as well as Tracy and Sabrina." ANOTHER, blatant, handler lie to the public. Cooperating would be providing the pin number. Then, Tracy has said "he is not cooperating."

imo, there is information that Tracy nor Sabrina want released on that phone that is going to put Trayvon in possibly a negative light, not the image that they have put forth in the MEDIA. Does that make Trayvon guilty of anything? Absolutely not. Does it portray who Trayvon was? imo, yes. Just like the tweets give insight into Trayvon's personality.

They might have not been cooperating with the Sanford Police but they were cooperating with FDLE, and other government agencies involved in the investigation; the FBI, the DOJ, the State Attorney Office (Angela Corey), etc.

DebFrmHell wrote:

Martin never got back with police. At a March 8 news conference in Orlando, Tracy Martin told reporters he would not help police download information from the phone.

When questioned last month about Tracy Martin's decision to withhold the phone's PIN from authorities, family attorney Benjamin Crump said, "I don't know anything about that. We're going to do anything prosecutors say we should."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-cell-phone-20121125,0,542835.story

Note that the article was written 11/26/12 so the last month means that TM was asked about it again in October.

Crump saying that he didn't know anything about that seems to be incredibly untruthful unless he is kicking the can to Jackson or Parks. He had been representing the family for days at that stage. There is no reason to believe that Tracy Martin's initial hesitancy..."I have to check w/my lawyer" (paraphrased)...that he didn't do just that.

Spin to appear to be cooperating. Not exactly true.

The FDLE is not going to issue an arrest warrant, nor is the FBI or the DOJ. The fact remains that they were not giving 100% cooperation to the one department that needed tangible evidence to issue a capias request. I

No amount of spin can cover that.

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

They might have not been cooperating with the Sanford Police but they were cooperating with FDLE, and other government agencies involved in the investigation; the FBI, the DOJ, the State Attorney Office (Angela Corey), etc.

Tracy Martin refused to cooperate with the agency leading the investigation at that time.

It really doesn't matter who he eventually decided to talk to or 'cooperate ' with and it doesn't change the implication for his stance on that.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Tracy Martin refused to cooperate with the agency leading the investigation at that time.

It really doesn't matter who he eventually decided to talk to or 'cooperate ' with and it doesn't change the implication for his stance on that.

They were protesting against the Sanford Police Department, it is a good enough reason not to collaborate with them.

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

They were protesting against the Sanford Police Department, it is a good enough reason not to collaborate with them.

Are you following the dates being discussed here?

We are talking 5 March to 8 March.

DebFrmHell wrote:Alessandra, et al:

The family was being told from day one that the evidence all pointed toward Zimmerman's innocence. They needed more. Tracy Martin was in a position to give them what they needed. He didn't do it. He refused to do it.

Instead, over a month after the shooting and not until W8 was introduced to the USA by ABC and Matt Gutman 3/20/12(?), was she made available for deposition by the SAO over a week later on 4/2/12.

The biggest piece of information that came through Angela Corey's team for that APC is the addition of W8's testimony. She is very much the basis for that APC. The chase, the verbal confrontation, how it came to be physical are all coming from her.

And we learned that she didn't show up. They had to go look for her for over an hour to take her to that deposition at Sybrina's apartment.

How can you continue to ignore that is beyond me.

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

They were protesting against the Sanford Police Department, it is a good enough reason not to collaborate with them.

Are you following the dates being discussed here?

We are talking 5 March to 8 March.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Are you following the dates being discussed here?

We are talking 5 March to 8 March.

March 8, 2012 – Trayvon Martin's father holds a press conference, calling for the arrest of the man who killed his son, the Sentinel reports.


Dad: Arrest crime watch volunteer who killed my son

By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel
7:11 p.m. EST, March 8, 2012

~Snipped~

On Thursday, Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, held a news conference in Orlando and called on Sanford police to arrest Zimmerman for murder.

"It's senseless," Tracy Martin said of his son's death. "We feel justice hasn't been served."

The family has hired lawyers Benjamin Crump of Tallahassee and Natalie Jackson of Orlando. Both demanded that police make an arrest and release details about what happened the night of the shooting, including several 911 calls.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-08/news/os-teen-shooting-killed-sanford-police-20120308_1_shooting-police-headquarters-investigation-next-week

OS Sentinel

Police found it at the scene the night Trayvon was shot, its battery dead[/b]. Authorities tried but failed to download data from the phone, then asked his father, Tracy Martin, for the security code so they could unlock it. They didn't get the code and turned the phone over to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

A law enforcement official said that the phone had died not long after the police retrieved it, and that it took days for the authorities to get a charger and an expert to try to get into the device. [b]If the police had been able to get access to it, they could have interviewed Mr. Martin’s friend about what he had told her in those final moments of his life and what else she had heard. The police eventually subpoenaed Mr. Martin’s cellphone records, but did not receive them in a timely fashion.

Gutman, ABC

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."

The line went dead. Besides screams heard on 911 calls that night as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words he said.

Cell phone records provided by the family’s attorney indicate the 16-year-old girl was having a conversation with Martin only about five minutes before he was shot and killed by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer.

HNLTV
The teenager, described on "Good Morning America" as Martin's girlfriend, is not being identified by ABC based on instructions from her family. She says that Martin told her he was walking home from the store. ABC obtained call logs from Martin's cell phone.

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:


March 8, 2012 – Trayvon Martin's father holds a press conference, calling for the arrest of the man who killed his son, the Sentinel reports.


Dad: Arrest crime watch volunteer who killed my son

By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel
7:11 p.m. EST, March 8, 2012

~Snipped~

On Thursday, Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, held a news conference in Orlando and called on Sanford police to arrest Zimmerman for murder.

"It's senseless," Tracy Martin said of his son's death. "We feel justice hasn't been served."

The family has hired lawyers Benjamin Crump of Tallahassee and Natalie Jackson of Orlando. Both demanded that police make an arrest and release details about what happened the night of the shooting, including several 911 calls.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-08/news/os-teen-shooting-killed-sanford-police-20120308_1_shooting-police-headquarters-investigation-next-week

I posted this link earlier in the week.

You haven't backed up your claim that the Martins were protesting by 5 March and were therefore unable to assist in an ongoing investigation related to their sons death.

You've never published any facts from credible sources to support any validity to the assertions made only by Crump that the investigation was inadequate and that the Martins lawyers instructing their clients to stop 'cooperating' with LE was factually justified.

Post all the links to 'crump' says or 'Tracy Martin says' that you want.

Those aren't facts of the actual investigation and the manner it was conducted.

Tamta shared:

Gutman, ABC
"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."

The line went dead. Besides screams heard on 911 calls that night as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words he said.

art tart wrote:

Tamta shared:

Gutman, ABC
"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."

The line went dead. Besides screams heard on 911 calls that night as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words he said.

Tamta

I just don't believe this, DeeDee claiming to hear Trayvon being pushed. This sounds like prepping by handler's, imo. In DeeDee's deposition with MOM, imo, she will probably admit she ASSUMED this. DeeDee has no way of knowing if Trayvon threw his head phones/phone on the ground or not. I don't know that I have ever heard the sound of someone being pushed and imo, DeeDee didn't hear it either. Seems a lot has been put out there that DeeDee assumed, not as a fact, as DeeDee does not have knowledge of exactly what happened, she assumes alot. (or has had suggestions offered to her as what might have happened from the handler's)

DeeDee can validate the time she talked to Trayvon. imo, DeeDee isn't going to be able to testify to much, she can't testify Trayvon was pushed, nor his head phones were knocked off. The Star witness has credibility problems it seems imo.

art tart wrote:After going back and looking for exactly where the headphones were found, they were in Trayvon's pocket.

They were collected at the scene by Crime Scene Technician Diana Smith. (p. 80)

Tamta wrote:

art tart wrote:After going back and looking for exactly where the headphones were found, they were in Trayvon's pocket.

They were collected at the scene by Crime Scene Technician Diana Smith. (p. 80)

In the CNN tran 3/20 where Crump launches the DeeDee narrative he makes a point of saying that Trayvon was wearing his headphones.


He must be psychic.

Tamta wrote:

art tart wrote:After going back and looking for exactly where the headphones were found, they were in Trayvon's pocket.

They were collected at the scene by Crime Scene Technician Diana Smith. (p. 80)

In the CNN tran 3/20 where Crump launches the DeeDee narrative he makes a point of saying that Trayvon was wearing his headphones.


He must be psychic.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Tamta wrote:

In the CNN tran 3/20 where Crump launches the DeeDee narrative he makes a point of saying that Trayvon was wearing his headphones.


He must be psychic.

Maybe Trayvon made a habit of using his headphones, most teenagers do, he could have been wearing them while he was talking to Dee Dee, but could have removed them and put them inside his pocket because he wanted to be more aware of his surroundings. After all, he was being followed.

Benjamin Crump

He called me late Sunday night and told me that he had called the young lady, and he told me, and I was just utterly shocked when he told me the time that they talked. They had talked all that day, about 400 minutes, starting that morning to the afternoon. Like many teenagers do, they talked on the phones. And all his family and friends knew Trayvon would have his ear plugs in his ear and he would have his phone on the side of his pocket. It was no different that day. His father and mother talked about, a lot of times, they would wake up and he'll be on the phone talking to his friends. [More..]

Benjamin Crump

And so she says "run." He says, I'm not going to run. I'm going to walk fast. At that point, she says Trayvon -- she hears Trayvon say, why are you following me. She hears the other boy say, what are you doing around here. And again, Trayvon says, why are you following me. And that's when she says again he said, what are you doing around here. Trayvon is pushed. The reason she concludes, because his voice changes like something interrupted his speech. Then the other thing, she believes the earplug fell out of his ear. She can hear faint noises but no longer has the contact. She hears an altercation going and she says, then suddenly, somebody must have hit the phone and it went out because that's the last she hears.

art tart wrote:Alessandra - that is plausible that Trayvon put the headphones in his pocket but why would Crump LIE about it and say "Trayvon was wearing his headphones?"

All of these things are small, but a pattern of being deceitful.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

art tart wrote:Alessandra - that is plausible that Trayvon put the headphones in his pocket but why would Crump LIE about it and say "Trayvon was wearing his headphones?"

All of these things are small, but a pattern of being deceitful.

"I've saved the worst for last. The headphone problem may never be resolved, because someone got sloppy. The inventory (p. 7) says they were in one of Martin's pockets, but one of Serino's field reports (p. 20) says they were on the ground next to the body.

The same report says a photo button/pin was fastened to Martin's clothing. (This is probably the one Zimmerman mentioned to the dispatcher.) The inventory says the button was found in a pocket. So it seems someone was careless about logging items as found in pockets."

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf

Above comment was posted on TalkLeft.

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

"I've saved the worst for last. The headphone problem may never be resolved, because someone got sloppy. The inventory (p. 7) says they were in one of Martin's pockets, but one of Serino's field reports (p. 20) says they were on the ground next to the body.

The same report says a photo button/pin was fastened to Martin's clothing. (This is probably the one Zimmerman mentioned to the dispatcher.) The inventory says the button was found in a pocket. So it seems someone was careless about logging items as found in pockets."

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf

Above comment was posted on TalkLeft.

So the fact remains the head phones were not attached to his phone post mortem.

The likelihood of him being on the phone at the time of the confrontation may be much lower if they were in his pockets.

Alessandra said:

The point is that the police did a sloppy job, they failed to establish a very important fact related to the case. There are conflicting reports as to whether Trayvon's headphones were found on the ground next to his body, or in one of his pockets.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Tamta wrote:

So the fact remains the head phones were not attached to his phone post mortem.

The likelihood of him being on the phone at the time of the confrontation may be much lower if they were in his pockets.

No, if there is evidence that shows that he was on the phone with Dee Dee when Zimmerman confronted him, it doesn't matter whether or not he was using his headphones.

The point is that the police did a sloppy job, they failed to establish a very important fact related to the case. There are conflicting reports as to whether Trayvon's headphones were found on the ground next to his body, or in one of his pockets.

Tamta says:

Now the headphones are important because it gives Crump the opportunity to inject the idea of: following, confronting, pushing.

Notice how he says Trayvon is pushed, but in the next sentence it is because DeeDee concludes it.
The ear plug falling out of the ear is a different kind of way way to say they lost contact, rather than they were not in contact at that moment perhaps?
The phone stops working because someone must have hit it? (As in not Trayvon hitting his own phone.)

Lots of conclusions of DeeDee.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html

art tart wrote:

Tamta says:

Now the headphones are important because it gives Crump the opportunity to inject the idea of: following, confronting, pushing.

Notice how he says Trayvon is pushed, but in the next sentence it is because DeeDee concludes it.
The ear plug falling out of the ear is a different kind of way way to say they lost contact, rather than they were not in contact at that moment perhaps?
The phone stops working because someone must have hit it? (As in not Trayvon hitting his own phone.)

Lots of conclusions of DeeDee.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html

Tamta- exactly what FACTS can DeeDee actually testify to?

1. That she was talking to Trayvon.
2. That he said he was being followed.
3. That she told him "to run," he said he was "going to walk fast."
4. Someone ask Trayvon "what he was doing around there?"
5. Hopefully she doesn't LIE about her age which should be 19 yrs. old at the time of the trial.

Is there anything else DeeDee can truthfully testify to as fact as her opinion is going to be shot down by the Defense. Pushing, shoving, etc. are speculation on her part, not fact.

Crump claims DeeDee is the STAR withness, but she really can't testify to much as FACT!

art tart wrote:

Alessandra said:

The point is that the police did a sloppy job, they failed to establish a very important fact related to the case. There are conflicting reports as to whether Trayvon's headphones were found on the ground next to his body, or in one of his pockets.

The point is: They were not in Trayvon's ears as CRUMP has told the public in several interviews to promote a theory.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

art tart wrote:

The point is: They were not in Trayvon's ears as CRUMP has told the public in several interviews to promote a theory.

If the headphones were found next to his body, as it was stated on one of the police reports, then it is possible that the headphones were pulled out, or fell out of his ears when the struggle ensued.

art tart wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

If the headphones were found next to his body, as it was stated on one of the police reports, then it is possible that the headphones were pulled out, or fell out of his ears when the struggle ensued.

That is only speculation on your part, Crump KNEW the ear phones were not in Trayvon's ears as he stated in MEDIA interviews. Just as he knew DeeDee was NOT 16, as he repeatedly said.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

art tart wrote:

That is only speculation on your part, Crump KNEW the ear phones were not in Trayvon's ears as he stated in MEDIA interviews. Just as he knew DeeDee was NOT 16, as he repeatedly said.

It has nothing to do with Crump, the basis for my comment is the police report where it was stated that Trayvon's headphones were found next to his body.

Freckles wrote:Possibilities:

The headphones:
Do we know these were TM's and not GZ's?
Could workers, clearing the scene of what appeared to bean "honest" shooting, have picked up the headphones and put them into a pocket of the victim?

I recall seeing pics of the tea can placed on the body of the victim. Reports indicate it was actually found in the pocket of the hoodie. Was it removed (for whatever reasons, perhaps, in an attempt to resuscitate the victim) and placed outside the pocket but with the victim to show this was part of the vic's personal property and should remain with/ be logged in as belonging to the vic?

IMO, some of the "misplaced/tampered" evidence was honestly moved. It may appear sloppy to us now but it may have had a purpose which was not nefarious.

Re statements:Some of these "mis-speaks" appear to be he-said, she-said and then reported as fact by persons who had NO first hand knowledge, persons NOT relying on reports but simply guessing or trying to recall info.

It is said, sometimes the best and most honest response is: "I don't know. Let me check on that and get back to you." And in our desire to want to fill in the blanks, we often guess. And those guesses are often in error.

justanopinion wrote:Speaking from experience... When people try to make sense of something that is non-sensical like a young man being shot it is not uncommon for people to have faulty recollections. When we struggle to understand we can fill in the blanks. We hear a noise and our mind in trying to cope gives it a meaning. It is not deliberate or nefarious.... just the way the mind works.

JMO JMO

Freckles wrote:

justanopinion wrote:Speaking from experience... When people try to make sense of something that is non-sensical like a young man being shot it is not uncommon for people to have faulty recollections. When we struggle to understand we can fill in the blanks. We hear a noise and our mind in trying to cope gives it a meaning. It is not deliberate or nefarious.... just the way the mind works.

JMO JMO

I agree.

OFF TOPIC, perhaps.
In my own training as a NW member, in the midst of a meeting, an off duty nonuniformed officer came into the room and attempted an altercation with a member.
After he left the room, we were each asked to identify facial features, physique, gender, race, age, and clothing down to the shoes. We were asked, "What happened? What was this all about?" It was amazing how few of us had the basic information correct. Most of us were caught up in the emotions and our own fight- or- flee feelings. Later, I duplicated a similar situation with teens I was working with explaining how we each will perceive a situation differently if we use our emotions as we are trying to understand and explain the "drama" we have experienced.

Freckles wrote:Possibilities:

The headphones:
Do we know these were TM's and not GZ's?
Could workers, clearing the scene of what appeared to bean "honest" shooting, have picked up the headphones and put them into a pocket of the victim?

I recall seeing pics of the tea can placed on the body of the victim. Reports indicate it was actually found in the pocket of the hoodie. Was it removed (for whatever reasons, perhaps, in an attempt to resuscitate the victim) and placed outside the pocket but with the victim to show this was part of the vic's personal property and should remain with/ be logged in as belonging to the vic?

IMO, some of the "misplaced/tampered" evidence was honestly moved. It may appear sloppy to us now but it may have had a purpose which was not nefarious.

Re statements:Some of these "mis-speaks" appear to be he-said, she-said and then reported as fact by persons who had NO first hand knowledge, persons NOT relying on reports but simply guessing or trying to recall info.

It is said, sometimes the best and most honest response is: "I don't know. Let me check on that and get back to you." And in our desire to want to fill in the blanks, we often guess. And those guesses are often in error.

Freckles wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:
clipped---

There is another problem with the police report; during the 911 call Zimmerman told the dispatcher, "He's got a buttton on his shirt".

Link to the 911 call transcript:

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

Trayvon is seen wearing the button on his shirt in the 7-11 video:



The police report states that the photo/button was fastened to Trayvon's clothing, but the personal property inventory states that the button was found in a pocket.

PD must be psychic. This is getting ridiculous. The prosecution keeps shooting its self in its own foot.