Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8

by colsnipe Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:26 pm

DOWN..

by Guest Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:05 pm

George Zimmerman: The Most Likely Scenario

Jeralyn, owner of Talk Left Blog and Criminal Defense Attorney wrote an excellent article awhile back laying out the case, the witnesses and where they were and their relevance to the case. It is a long article, the witnesses were locked into their opinions early on although MANY changed them for whatever reason. Some witnesses NEVER changed their observation/statements from the evening of the tragedy. Jeralyn lays it out and in conclusion, shows how it will effect the case for the State and the Defense. Jeralyn has many good articles on all aspects of the case.

Some of her article:

What is the state left with? Its motion for protective order is being misinterpreted by the media,. The state does not say that George Zimmerman's statements prove he's guilty.

Read it carefully. It says there are some inconsistencies and contradictions in Zimmerman's various statements. It doesn't say those make him guilty. It says Zimmerman's statements "in conjunction with" physical evidence and witness statements, establish his guilt. Which is another way of saying that GZ's statements, by themselves, don't make their case.

For the Defense to prove Self Defense:

All that matters legally is whether Trayvon Martin's physical attack on him caused him to reasonably believe he was in danger of serious bodily injury or death. Zimmerman's testimony, which is supported by proof of his injuries and witnesses observing the struggle, is that Martin broke his nose and banged his head against cement. He tried to get up and couldn't. Using an objective standard, a reasonable person in that situation would fear imminent serious bodily injury if he didn't react with force.

The state is unlikely to prevail in arguing Zimmerman was the aggressor because to be the aggressor, Zimmerman had to contemporaneously provoke the force Martin used against him. Zimmerman's profiling of Martin and call to the non-emergency number were not contemporaneous with Martin's attack. Even if the state could convince a judge or jury that Zimmerman was following Martin, rather than walking back to his car, rendering his pursuit a contemporaneous act, it is not an act that provokes Martin's use of force against him. Demanding someone account for their presence does not provoke the use of force. Even if it could be construed to be provocation for using force, all it means is Zimmerman had to attempt reasonable means to extricate himself before using deadly force in response. W-6's steadfast insistence that Zimmerman was struggling to get up and out from under Trayvon, right before the shot went off, fulfills that requirement. Zimmerman will say the same. And no witnesses saw anything different.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/5/27/44552/1872

by Alessandra_Deux Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:07 pm

art tart wrote:
Freckles" shared- GZ' rights are well protected.
Pity is, TM never got the same chance to have HIS rights explored, presented in a court, and protected.

Where is the equality?

Freckles - the State will represent TM's rights in the trial, you know that right? You understand that's how our Judicial system works I am assuming. Not ONLY are TM's rights explored at taxpayer's expense, the State has ENDLESS RESOURCES to explore his rights. The good news for you is Freckles, the State NEVER runs out of money to investigate.

If I understand your thinking, TM got what he deserved because he DARED to walk on a sidewalk where GZ did NOT want him walking.

Freckles - I have grown TIRED of your accusations that those that want a fair trial for GZ think TM got what he deserved.

The accusation is insulting and an OUTRIGHT LIE, & imo, you know that, it's just an insult to hurl, of course no one believes your statement.

You said it correctly, "If I understand your thinking," the point is, you don't understand a lot apparently as you just make up ridiculous accusations of others.

KZ told you this AGAIN 2 or 3 weeks ago, "no one has said on this thread that TM got what he deserved. NO ONE! I have corrected you countless times for the insult you hurled at me, HOW MANY times is it going to take for you to understand this? Some of our best contributors have left for this type of BS that is hurled at those that state their opinions supporting GZ's right to a fair trial and say it is a pain in the a$$ to have a conversation based on facts as it is almost impossible here.

How dare the black teen TM NOT fit the PROFILE GZ set up for him? How dare TM even begin to think HE had rights, too?

You continue to confuse the laws that state no one has the right to assault another person for any reason. TM THOUGHT he had rights to give a beat down, he didn't, he broke the law, he didn't have the RIGHT to do so.

Because TM did that, TM walked in FRONT of a bullet and DESERVED what he got coming.

Just to state the facts correctly: TM didn't walk in FRONT of a bullet, he was SHOT during an illegal assault of GZ while giving a beat down.

HOW MANY times is it going to take for you to understand this? Some of our best contributors have left for this type of BS that is hurled at those that state their opinions supporting GZ's right to a fair trial and say it is a pain in the a$$ to have a conversation based on facts as it is almost impossible here.

Why is it impossible? Is it because other people disagree with your opinions?

I know that many contributors to this particular thread left a long time ago because they felt it was not the ideal "niche" for self expression. I want to make clear that those members were not Zimmerman's supporters.

This is a discussion forum, everyone here should feel free to voice their opinion at any and every time, their point of view might not be popular to some people but they still have the right to say what they think.

All of the members who have been contributing to this discussion have offered very interesting perspectives about this case, it is clear that not everyone has the same opinions and beliefs, but that is precisely what makes it interesting.

I hate to use this cliché but, we can all agree to disagree.

by Alessandra_Deux Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:12 pm

KZ wrote:I'd like to politely ask that members here please stop reposting posts from other privately owned blogs. If you want to discuss something posted at another opinion and comment site, please go there, register, and comment. But don't bring it here. That includes both "pro" Zimmerman, as well as "anti" Zimmerman opinion and sites. It's ok to post that you heard about "breaking news" (such as the recent discussions about a change in the Judge assigned to the case) at such and such a site, but if your post here is only to RE-POST something someone else posted at another site, to either agree or disagree with it, then please don't post that here. Go there, wherever "there" is.

Mainstream media articles are fair game. But please cease reposting from other "opinion and comment" sites. This type of posting pattern typically can lead to "blog wars". Feel free to discuss with each other in PM's if you like, but let's keep it off the main discussion.

Rehashing someone else's posts or opinions from another site is not furthering productive discussion.

Thank you, all.

Bumping this post.

by Guest Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:18 pm

Alessandra shared:

Why is it impossible? Is it because other people disagree with your opinions?

Alessandra, to disagree with the facts is not disagreeing with my opinion. It has been stated repeatedly the facts of the altercation and witnesses to support the altercation. That is NOT my opinion, it is a fact. For those that DENY the facts, there isn't much to discuss and a waste of time imo.

The recent blogger's that have left have been those that want to see GZ have a fair trial, their tired of the same bull chit, the same posting of facts for those denying them, that is not discussing the case. Most of this thread is participated in by those that have convicted GZ which I find disturbing, no need to wait for a trial, no presumption of innocence for GZ for those that have already convicted him.

by Guest Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:28 pm

Alessandra_Deux wrote:
KZ wrote:I'd like to politely ask that members here please stop reposting posts from other privately owned blogs. If you want to discuss something posted at another opinion and comment site, please go there, register, and comment. But don't bring it here. That includes both "pro" Zimmerman, as well as "anti" Zimmerman opinion and sites. It's ok to post that you heard about "breaking news" (such as the recent discussions about a change in the Judge assigned to the case) at such and such a site, but if your post here is only to RE-POST something someone else posted at another site, to either agree or disagree with it, then please don't post that here. Go there, wherever "there" is.

Mainstream media articles are fair game. But please cease reposting from other "opinion and comment" sites. This type of posting pattern typically can lead to "blog wars". Feel free to discuss with each other in PM's if you like, but let's keep it off the main discussion.

Rehashing someone else's posts or opinions from another site is not furthering productive discussion.

Thank you, all.

Bumping this post.

I didn't think of Jeralyn's thread as being a reposted comment from another blog. Jeralyn is a Criminal Defense Attorney, she states the facts in the case, explains the legal jargon and has a Criminal Blog in which she comments on many legal cases in the news. I apologize to KZ if my post was inappropriate.

It just seems, imo, that many have gotten off on hypothetical scenarios without anything to support the imagined scenario, things that are not factual, sharing opinions of LE's opinions of SYG, when Criminal Def Attorneys can explain the facts. Denying facts in the case doesn't further productive discussion imo. I thought reading the facts on the case would be productive.

Again, I apologize to KZ, I thought Jeralyn's article as a Criminal Defense Attorney would be productive and she listed the facts.

by KimmyK Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:29 pm

art tart wrote:Freckles shared:

You don't know if TM gave a "beat down" on George.

I do know that, the witness that GZ ask to call 911 witnessed the altercation, saw GZ receiving a beat down at the hands of TM, the injuries support the beat down.
KZ too told you this last week.

Freckles, you can remain in denial and spin bull any way you want, you CAN'T PROVIDE any evidence to support your theories. The FACTS support that GZ took a beat down by TM, FACTS DON'T CHANGE, it's your prerogative to continue to deny the facts.

You don't know what Trayvon Martin thought.

I can tell you what TM WAS NOT THINKING ! He could have gone inside Brandi's house where Chad was waiting on him, he could have called 911 if he were fearful, he could have watched the game as he said he would.

TM had a lot of choices, he decided to give GZ a beat down and he did just that. You don't have to believe it, sit back and watch the SYG hearing where it is layed out for you.

There is no evidence George had a "beat down" let alone from TM.

Freckles - this is the last time I am going to address this to you, then I will scroll and roll past your name, you CONTINUE to DENY the evidence. That's okay, but I am not wasting my time explaining to you anymore since you can READ THE EVIDENCE for yourself. Do you not believe it because you haven't BOTHERED reading the available information and evidence? Believe anything you want, I believe and trust the facts, the facts SUPPORT TM gave GZ a beat down and the witness supports the beat down and altercation.

You state TM broke the law yet there is NO evidence indicating TM broke ANY law!

Freckles - the EVIDENCE is, TM assaulted GZ as WITNESSED by a bystander that GZ ask to call 911. Do you understand ASSAULT is illegal and that assaulting someone is breaking the law? You can remain to continue to DENY the facts. It doesn't change anything.

GZ' injuries were far from life threatening.

GZ's injuries didn't have to be life threatening, GZ had to believe his life was threatened. TM could have stopped the beating at any time, he CHOSE NOT TO!

GZ had priors as an adult; he was no longer the cute little altar boy

Freckles - frankly I find this comment childish. TM was not the innocent 14 yr. old portrayed in the Hollister photos either NOR was he the kid the football Coach talked about from 3 years prior when he was 14 that his parents wanted the public and the MEDIA to believe, the photo of a 14 yr old TM in his football uniform was shown for a reason, that is not how TM looked at the time of his death nor is it the person he was. GEEZ Louise, seems the family would at least have given the MEDIA HONEST/appropriate photos of TM at the time of his death instead of misrepresenting what he looked like, he too wasn't the innocent face his parents presented nor was he the innocent young man his parent's wanted you to believe. The fact is, TM stood 6'2" tall and GZ was 5'8. TM's behavior reflects his appreciation of the Gansta mentality, look the pictures up if you haven't seen them, read the Gansta Nigg! tweets to see the young man TM was, a troubled 17 yr. young man making bad choices and continually being suspended from school. The behavior and defiance TM had exhibited in 6 months of school showed that he continued to make BAD CHOICES by CHOICE, he wasn't in special education. imo, TM made a BAD CHOICE to choose to beat down GZ.

BBM-
The fact is, TM stood 6'2" tall and GZ was 5'8.
Actually, Art, FACT IS: Trayvon was 71" 158 pounds NOT 6'2"
See autopsy report page 126, Sorry, for some reason my computer will not link it.

Sorry, this article is OLD, but IMO, still relevant...
While you are at it, check out Trayvons MySpace (link in article), NOTHING like GZ's IMO!!!
Bloggers Cherry-Pick From Social Media to Cast Trayvon Martin as a Menace
By ROBERT MACKEY

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/29/bloggers-cherry-pick-from-social-media-to-cast-trayvon-martin-as-a-menace/

by Alessandra_Deux Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:38 pm

art tart wrote:
Alessandra shared:

Why is it impossible? Is it because other people disagree with your opinions?

Alessandra, to disagree with the facts is not disagreeing with my opinion. It has been stated repeatedly the facts of the altercation and witnesses to support the altercation. That is NOT my opinion, it is a fact. For those that DENY the facts, there isn't much to discuss and a waste of time imo.

The recent blogger's that have left have been those that want to see GZ have a fair trial.

It is not a fact, it is an opinion based on the witnesses' opinions of what they saw.

Lets don't forget that some of the witness have changed their testimonies. And, that "John", the witness who initially said that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman hitting him MMA-style, also changed his story.

4 Witnesses Change Stories About Night of Trayvon Martin Shooting: Could This Change The Case?

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/05/23/4-witnesses-change-stories-about-night-of-trayvon-martin-shooting-could-this-change-the-case/

P.S. I was referring to the "Hinky Meter Refugees" who become RC members and originally started the "Trayvon Martin/ George Zimmerman" thread here at RC.

by KimmyK Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:40 pm

art tart wrote:
Alessandra shared:

Why is it impossible? Is it because other people disagree with your opinions?

Alessandra, to disagree with the facts is not disagreeing with my opinion. It has been stated repeatedly the facts of the altercation and witnesses to support the altercation. That is NOT my opinion, it is a fact. For those that DENY the facts, there isn't much to discuss and a waste of time imo.

Art, I respectfully disagree with the following statement as well....

The recent blogger's that have left have been those that want to see GZ have a fair trial.
ETA-NOT that they don't want GZ have a FAIR trial, but are looking at evidence, statements, etc.

Many of the recent bloggers that left this site WERE NOT GZ SUPPORTERS
(After more of the evidence came out and witnesses changed their statements):
I have found many once common names here at another site...JMO crystal ball

(Other than DFH who posts more at TL these days) JMO JMO JMO

by Guest Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:53 pm

Kimmy shared:

The fact is, TM stood 6'2" tall and GZ was 5'8.
Actually, Art, FACT IS: Trayvon was 71" 158 pounds NOT 6'2"
See autopsy report page 126, Sorry, for some reason my computer will not link it.

Kimmy - Sybrina stated that TM was 6'2" tall. Although the autopsy says 71", a physician on another blog I read said "it is not likely TM's knees were straighten out when recording the measurement which would not render his actual height.

There is no doubt many of the supporters of GZ getting a fair trial have left and participate on other blogs AS WELL as site owner's here participating else where and not here.

by Guest Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:57 pm

Alessandra_Deux wrote:
art tart wrote:

Alessandra, to disagree with the facts is not disagreeing with my opinion. It has been stated repeatedly the facts of the altercation and witnesses to support the altercation. That is NOT my opinion, it is a fact. For those that DENY the facts, there isn't much to discuss and a waste of time imo.

The recent blogger's that have left have been those that want to see GZ have a fair trial.

It is not a fact, it is an opinion based on the witnesses' opinions of what they saw.

Lets don't forget that some of the witness have changed their testimonies. And, that "John", the witness who initially said that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman hitting him MMA-style, also changed his story.

4 Witnesses Change Stories About Night of Trayvon Martin Shooting: Could This Change The Case?

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/05/23/4-witnesses-change-stories-about-night-of-trayvon-martin-shooting-could-this-change-the-case/

As stated in Jeralyn's article, she went over ALL the witness testimony and those that changed it, many turned out not to be credible witnesses.

by Alessandra_Deux Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:14 am

art tart wrote:
Alessandra_Deux wrote:

It is not a fact, it is an opinion based on the witnesses' opinions of what they saw.

Lets don't forget that some of the witness have changed their testimonies. And, that "John", the witness who initially said that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman hitting him MMA-style, also changed his story.

4 Witnesses Change Stories About Night of Trayvon Martin Shooting: Could This Change The Case?

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/05/23/4-witnesses-change-stories-about-night-of-trayvon-martin-shooting-could-this-change-the-case/

As stated in Jeralyn's article, she went over ALL the witness testimony and those that changed it, many turned out not to be credible witnesses.

I responded to the post where you stated the following:

"Alessandra, to disagree with the facts is not disagreeing with my opinion. It has been stated repeatedly the facts of the altercation and witnesses to support the altercation. That is NOT my opinion, it is a fact. For those that DENY the facts, there isn't much to discuss and a waste of time imo. "

Your comment on the above post:

"As stated in Jeralyn's article, she went over ALL the witness testimony and those that changed it, many turned out not to be credible witnesses."

That is exactly my point!

by Guest Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:30 am

Alessandra, the witness that observed the altercation, that GZ ask to call 911, the witness that saw GZ repeatedly try to get up and out from underneath TM, DID NOT change their statements, they haven't wavered in their statements from the evening, their statements supports GZ accounting of the events of the altercation. They are giving the facts as they observed them, not opinions, they are witnesses for the Defense.

Many of the witnesses were not credible and Jeralyn gives the reasons why they are not credible witnesses, some just changed their statements for whatever reasons. She also lists the inconsistencies in some of the witness statements, most of those are the discredited witnesses.

by Freckles Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:11 am

art tart wrote:Alessandra, the witness that observed the altercation, that GZ ask to call 911, the witness that saw GZ repeatedly try to get up and out from underneath TM, DID NOT change their statements, they haven't wavered in their statements from the evening, their statements supports GZ accounting of the events of the altercation. They are giving the facts as they observed them, not opinions, they are witnesses for the Defense.

Many of the witnesses were not credible and Jeralyn gives the reasons why they are not credible witnesses, some just changed their statements for whatever reasons. She also lists the inconsistencies in some of the witness statements, most of those are the discredited witnesses.

To my knowledge, there were NO witnesses to the events leading to TM' death.
Please support your statements.

UP

by DebFrmHell Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:01 am

Even Bernie de la Rionda admitted in open court that Martin had hit Zimmerman at some point. He couldn't say that Zimmerman ever hit him back simply because there is no evidence that supports that theory.

W6 is still a very strong witness for the Defense in that he still has Martin on top of Zimmerman. He still has the hand/arm movements though he did back away from his original MMA style fighting. He still has Zimmerman trying to get from under Martin. The real thing that changes is that he is unsure of who is yelling for help but adds that it is common sense that the man on the bottom was the one doing the yelling.

He is one of the only witnesses who saw part of the altercation before the gunshot.

There is W3. She is the one who describes the white shirt. Read her statement. She also did a drawing. She refers to the white shirt on one but further down in her statement she has Zimmerman in red talking to either W13 or an officer. IMO, she is talking about two distinct individuals.

This is why I stay pretty much at TL. It doesn't move as fast as the other blogs because speculation is discouraged. And it is run by a criminal defense lawyer. It is still a good sized forum.

Like many of the others, I post around at various sites. Some I am comfortable with, some not so much.

by colsnipe Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:47 am

DOWN...

by DebFrmHell Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:35 am

colsnipe wrote:DOWN...

So I have to ask. What is up with the UP and DOWN that you are using. Is it some kind of attempt to vote on a post that you either agree or disagree with?

by Guest Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:43 am

DebFrmHell wrote:Even Bernie de la Rionda admitted in open court that Martin had hit Zimmerman at some point. He couldn't say that Zimmerman ever hit him back simply because there is no evidence that supports that theory.

W6 is still a very strong witness for the Defense in that he still has Martin on top of Zimmerman. He still has the hand/arm movements though he did back away from his original MMA style fighting. He still has Zimmerman trying to get from under Martin. The real thing that changes is that he is unsure of who is yelling for help but adds that it is common sense that the man on the bottom was the one doing the yelling.

He is one of the only witnesses who saw part of the altercation before the gunshot.

There is W3. She is the one who describes the white shirt. Read her statement. She also did a drawing. She refers to the white shirt on one but further down in her statement she has Zimmerman in red talking to either W13 or an officer. IMO, she is talking about two distinct individuals.

This is why I stay pretty much at TL. It doesn't move as fast as the other blogs because speculation is discouraged. And it is run by a criminal defense lawyer. It is still a good sized forum.

Like many of the others, I post around at various sites. Some I am comfortable with, some not so much.

DebFrmHell - W6 is one of the important witnesses as Jeralyn and you stated, he saw GZ trying to get out from underneath TM, that is one thing that supports self defense, he tried to get away from TM but he couldn't, he couldn't retreat.

I too like Talk Left as I have read Jeralyn comment more than once for a commenter to "go back and read the evidence and interviews to get caught up on the case" before commenting again. imo, it can't be understated the importance of Jeralyn being a Criminal Defense Attorney, she has done her homework on all aspects of the case including all the discovery and witness testimony.

by Guest Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:56 am

Freckles wrote:
art tart wrote:Alessandra, the witness that observed the altercation, that GZ ask to call 911, the witness that saw GZ repeatedly try to get up and out from underneath TM, DID NOT change their statements, they haven't wavered in their statements from the evening, their statements supports GZ accounting of the events of the altercation. They are giving the facts as they observed them, not opinions, they are witnesses for the Defense.

Many of the witnesses were not credible and Jeralyn gives the reasons why they are not credible witnesses, some just changed their statements for whatever reasons. She also lists the inconsistencies in some of the witness statements, most of those are the discredited witnesses.
To my knowledge, there were NO witnesses to the events leading to TM' death.
Please support your statements.

UP

Freckles - Read Jeralyn's article, Criminal Defense Attorney, she gives background on all the witnesses, where they were, and the importance of their testimony to the case and if the witnesses are discredited for various reasons.. She too has the interviews of all the witnesses, LE, all discovery, etc. Everything is broken down neatly under a topic thread and easy to navigate the site. She has everything on her site that you need on the case.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/5/27/44552/1872

by Guest Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:21 pm

MOM/West Receive TM's School Records

The Zimmerman defense received the school records of Trayvon Martin, as ordered by Judge Nelson. When we asked the Court to issue Subpoenas Duces Tecum for the school records, the State objected, and Mr. Crump, on behalf of the Martin family, registered a public objection. They argued, in part, that George Zimmerman did not know Trayvon Martin before the night of February 26, 2012, and so the nature of Trayvon’s character as revealed in the school records is irrelevant to the case at hand.

The Judge ruled that the defense should have the records. This ruling was based, in large part, on a case called State v. Munoz, 45 So 3d 954 (3 DCA 2010). That case holds that, under the right circumstances, a person's reputation for violence may be admissible in a case, even if the person accused of the crime was unaware of the reputation. The case focuses on the issue of the whether the person with the reputation may have acted aggressively in this case.

As we approach a Self-Defense Immunity Hearing and/or a jury trial, there will be necessary scrutiny of Trayvon Martin. As it is true for any person who undergoes such scrutiny, facts may come out that could be seen to show him in a less than favorable light. We do, for instance, have an interest in presenting Trayvon Martin accurately as he appeared on the night of February 26, 2012, and that will include challenging the several-years-old photo of Trayvon Martin as a boy wearing a red shirt -- the photo that has become the popular representation of him in the minds of the public at large. If the memory of Trayvon Martin is going to be a catalyst for a conversation about race relations in America, then we should have an honest conversation.

http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases/80-zimmerman-defense-receives-trayvon-martin-s-school-records

by Freckles Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:57 pm

art tart wrote:
Freckles wrote:
To my knowledge, there were NO witnesses to the events leading to TM' death.
Please support your statements.

UP

Freckles - Read Jeralyn's article, Criminal Defense Attorney, she gives background on all the witnesses, where they were, and the importance of their testimony to the case and if the witnesses are discredited for various reasons.. She too has the interviews of all the witnesses, LE, all discovery, etc. Everything is broken down neatly under a topic thread and easy to navigate the site. She has everything on her site that you need on the case.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/5/27/44552/1872

Why would I be interested in her opinion when I may read/hear the statements myself and form my own opinions?

I will repeat. There were no witnesses to the altercation and the shooting of TM.
GZ has stated he shot and killed TM.
GZ stated he used HIS gun when in fact it was NOT his gun but a gun belonging to Shelie, the wife, who is also known to be a liar.

UP...

by DebFrmHell Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:32 pm

You can repeat forever and it still doesn't make it true. There are witnesses prior to and after the gunshot. Many more after the gunshot. Most are "ear witnesses" after the fact.

The only thing that is true is that no one saw the actual gun shot by mere seconds.

by DebFrmHell Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:33 pm

Are you voting up your own post???

Very Happy

by sitemama Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:49 pm

OMG!!!

by Guest Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:57 pm

DebFrmHell wrote: You can repeat forever and it still doesn't make it true. There are witnesses prior to and after the gunshot. Many more after the gunshot. Most are "ear witnesses" after the fact.

The only thing that is true is that no one saw the actual gun shot by mere seconds.

DebFrmHell - you stated before but I can't remember, what is the bar set to prove "self defense in this case." I seem to remember it to be different and possibly lower than the Criminal Trial this summer. TIA.

I really appreciate all that Jeralyn has contributed to the case, explaining the law, explaining which witnesses are relevant, what they can testify to, her extensive research PLUS having everything on her site, endless articles on different aspects of the case. I really appreciate hearing the Law from an EXPERT instead of layman's interpretations of the law. Jeralyn has no motive or agenda, she is just a Criminal Def Attorney with a Criminal Blog, I, as many other's appreciate her efforts. I continue to read her opinions more in Media and other Criminal Attorney Blogs.

To continue to repeat things on this blog that are untrue, imo, brings the standards of the blog down, some blogs don't tolerate it but it is tolerated here. I guess any one here can say "I don't care what the law is, the evidence shows, I don't believe it."

by sitemama Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:15 pm

Well, we never had this problem @ RC until several of the members from Val's site came over here. They are the ones that keep this $h!t going, and I am really sick and tired of it. I understand why Val closed her site. She had personal issues, and didn't feel she could babysit her members during these issues. Well, our owners are also experiencing some personal problems and are not here very much, but why can't the adults on this site lay off this thread for a while. Nothing new is happening, so stop repeating your opinions over and over. Neither of you are going to change your mind, so get over it. But, frankly, my daughter had also done some things that mama did not agree with, but I still loved her and she did not deserve to be murdered at the age of 21. I didn't want her to run off and marry the scumbag, but she did and then he killed her. No one deserves to bury their children because of something someone else does to them.

by hello clarice Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:02 pm

I'm begining to better understand why Val closed her site after seeing this thread descend to it's current level. I don't post very often prefering to read, learn and digest information and evidence and I very much appreciate the research and constructive views of some of the commenters but when a poster asks why they should be interested in reading an experts opinion it's time to throw in the towel.
Good discussions and debates can't be had any more, people get too wrapped up in their own agenda's and are unwilling to listen and learn from the other side. Just another thing that is sending our whole society to he!! All IMO!

by justanopinion Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:44 pm

sitemama wrote:Well, we never had this problem @ RC until several of the members from Val's site came over here. They are the ones that keep this $h!t going, and I am really sick and tired of it. I understand why Val closed her site. She had personal issues, and didn't feel she could babysit her members during these issues. Well, our owners are also experiencing some personal problems and are not here very much, but why can't the adults on this site lay off this thread for a while. Nothing new is happening, so stop repeating your opinions over and over. Neither of you are going to change your mind, so get over it. But, frankly, my daughter had also done some things that mama did not agree with, but I still loved her and she did not deserve to be murdered at the age of 21. I didn't want her to run off and marry the scumbag, but she did and then he killed her. No one deserves to bury their children because of something someone else does to them.

It is unnatural to bury a child! Even more unnatural when it is at someone else's hand.. My deepest sympathies for your loss.

by justanopinion Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:09 pm

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8 - Page 20 P110

George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8 - Page 20 P110

George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #8 - Page 20 P210

someone correct me if I am wrong... this witness claims to have heard more than 1 male voice prior to the shot fired..
She saw them wrestling.. not hitting...
and the hispanic man... was wearing a short sleeve shirt

....MOO MOO MOO
GZ was wearing a shirt and a jacket!! the red jacket certainly does not look like a short sleeve shirt!

and who were the voices... a dominant louder one... and another voice..

why does she say she saw someone come there before the police carrying a flashlight... and they talk... and GZ is by himself after the shooting...

just picking what is FACT apart...

by sitemama Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:52 pm

Thank you Justa for your comments. It is unnatural, and I feel the person responsible for taking another life should receive some form of punishment, especially if the facts prove the victim had not done anything seriously damaging to the shooter.

TM did not injure GZ too badly, a few scrapes on the back of his head, maybe. And if he really was lying on the ground when he fired his weapon, it could have come back and hit him in the nose. But no one knows and we will never get the truth from GZ.

Let's wait for the trial, for all the facts to come out, and hopefully we have an intelligent jury and the trial won't be around vacation time. LOL

by Guest Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:19 pm

justanopinion - LOL, do you know which witness she is out of 20? It's exhausting wading through the reports, etc., some spots, such as Talk Left, refer to them as Witness 6 or Witness 11 as they do not use their names or I would look it up there. There are differences in the witness testimony, I assume it depends on their proximity to the altercation, some were upstairs looking out windows, some were on stairs, a few were near the altercation and observed it, it gets confusing going through it.

sitemama - there is no doubt this is a complicated case, the SYG hearing is in April, we will all hopefully get an education about the evidence for the State and Defense. sitemama, too, if this goes to trial in the summer, I was surprised there will be 6 juror's unlike KC's which had 12 since this isn't a charge of 1st degree murder charge and the death sentence isn't sought. I was surprised about the 6 juror's, but nothing should surprise us about Fla.

by Guest Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:42 pm

I ask DebFrmHell this earlier, but I have been curious as to the level the case has to be proven by MOM/West in the SYG Hearing, it is less in a SYG Hearing than a criminal case.

The Defense Burden in the SYG Hearing: preponderance of the evidence.

Preponderance of the evidence: Preponderance of the evidence is "such evidence as, when considered and compared with that opposed to it, has more convincing force and produces in your minds belief that what is sought to be proved is more likely true than not true.

George Zimmerman need only convince the judge by a preponderance of the evidence. The preponderance of the evidence standard is the lowest burden in criminal law. Zimmerman need only convince the judge that it is more likely than not that he acted justifiably.

The State's Burden in the Criminal Trial:

The standard that must be met by the prosecution's evidence in a criminal prosecution: that no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts except that the defendant committed the crime, thereby overcoming the presumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty. Beyond a reasonable doubt is the highest standard of proof that must be met in any trial.

When compared with the State’s burden at trial, which is to convince six individual jurors that Zimmerman committed the crime beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt, it becomes obvious that Zimmerman’s burden is significantly lower than that of the prosecution.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/preponderance-of-the-evidence/

http://legaldictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Beyond+a+Reasonable+Doubt

A Florida Criminal Lawyer Explains “Stand Your Ground” in Action For Zimmerman…

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/05/16/a-florida-criminal-lawyer-explains-stand-your-ground-in-action-for-zimmerman/

by KimmyK Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:11 pm

art tart wrote:justanopinion - LOL, do you know which witness she is out of 20? It's exhausting wading through the reports, etc., some spots, such as Talk Left, refer to them as Witness 6 or Witness 11 as they do not use their names or I would look it up there. There are differences in the witness testimony, I assume it depends on their proximity to the altercation, some were upstairs looking out windows, some were on stairs, a few were near the altercation and observed it, it gets confusing going through it.

sitemama - there is no doubt this is a complicated case, the SYG hearing is in April, we will all hopefully get an education about the evidence for the State and Defense. sitemama, too, if this goes to trial in the summer, I was surprised there will be 6 juror's unlike KC's which had 12 since this isn't a charge of 1st degree murder charge and the death sentence isn't sought. I was surprised about the 6 juror's, but nothing should surprise us about Fla.

I think the 911 calls are going to be a telling part of this case, IMO.

If you listen to the calls, there is one call where the witness is saying, "Jeremy, get in here," on another 911 call you have the witness/caller on the phone with 911 while the spouse/significant other is on another (cell) phone with the neighbor...

I think there is much that we still do not know yet, IMO.
Another interesting item, BDLR mentioned TWO voices on the 911 calls the last hearing.

GZ's legal site DOES NOT HAVE all the discovery...Witness 6 (2nd statement is MISSING)

Also, GZ's phone, texts, e-mails have been suppressed and O'Liar said the reason being, they do not show his client in a favorable light. Sorry, I lost the link for that one.

You can listen to the 911 call at the link below.
http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/03/16/trayvon-martin-911-calls-audio/ (Who's who)
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-martin-911-calls-audio/ (By witness #)

by Guest Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:24 pm

Kimmy - your right, there is still a lot of information out standing. I read today on MOM/West's site that they have the school records and they are still waiting on other reports from Miami. MOM/West can move forward in their depositions, they waited on this information imo to prepare questions to ask some they are going to do depositions on. I assume both parent's, Crump, etc.

Any who, there is still a lot of information not in yet. The SYG hearing is in 3 months, lots yet to be done it seems.

In KC's trial, there were endless social media that made KC look absolutely terrible, the jail videos of the self absorbed KC were outrageous, you can never tell what is important to a jury, ALL of KC's social media made her look terrible, ALL the media wasn't important to her juror's and she had 12 of them.

by colsnipe Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:41 pm

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According GZ, his head was bashed into the sidewalk at least 24 times…Why did he not defend himself? He was counting the number of times his head was being bashed in. Why did he choose to count the number of times his head was bashed in over the preservation of his own life? Where are the defensive wounds? He has none. And yet, according to GZ, natural instinct did not kick in. This is the same natural instinct that “made” GZ pull his gun out and shoot TM.

As some of you on this board have noticed, I with another poster tried out some psychology to see how long before other posters caught on…the score is 2.5.

2.5 times of down/up before it was noticed. 2.5 times “our” collective head was bashed before someone spoke up. 2.5 times before a poster stopped to ask why. Was it 2.5 times before it was asked “Why are you attacking me?”

I think I can state with a degree of certainty that most, if not all, of us would not bother to count the number of times our head was bashed in; our natural instinct would kick in and cause us to fight and to save our life. The evidence shows us that GZ never raised his own hand to save his own life against an attacker that would beat his head to such a point that he would be in diapers for the his life.

by Guest Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:14 am

colsnipe - imo, it might have felt like 24 times to GZ, having your head beaten repeatedly is painful.

imo, GZ was overpowered by TM and flat of his back, he repeatedly tried to get out from underneath TM with no success according to a witness. GZ struggled, he tried to save his life imo. If he didn't try to save his life, he never would have tried to get out from underneath TM, but he did. He didn't just lay there and take it, he tried to free himself of TM, he couldn't retreat from the assault.

by Alessandra_Deux Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:15 am

art tart wrote:colsnipe - imo, it might have felt like 24 times to GZ, having your head beaten repeatedly is painful.

imo, GZ was overpowered by TM and flat of his back, he repeatedly tried to get out from underneath TM with no success according to a witness. GZ struggled, he tried to save his life imo. If he didn't try to save his life, he never would have tried to get out from underneath TM, but he did. He didn't just lay there and take it, he couldn't retreat.

Do you have the link to the transcript to the witness interview?

by Guest Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:17 am

Alessandra_Deux wrote:
art tart wrote:colsnipe - imo, it might have felt like 24 times to GZ, having your head beaten repeatedly is painful.

imo, GZ was overpowered by TM and flat of his back, he repeatedly tried to get out from underneath TM with no success according to a witness. GZ struggled, he tried to save his life imo. If he didn't try to save his life, he never would have tried to get out from underneath TM, but he did. He didn't just lay there and take it, he couldn't retreat.

Do you have the link to the transcript to the witness interview?

I suggest you visit Talk Left where ALL the interviews are cataloged, I have read the interviews of all the witnesses, it might have been witness 6, but you can check.

by KimmyK Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:17 am

colsnipe wrote:1. down up
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According GZ, his head was bashed into the sidewalk at least 24 times…Why did he not defend himself? He was counting the number of times his head was being bashed in. Why did he choose to count the number of times his head was bashed in over the preservation of his own life? Where are the defensive wounds? He has none. And yet, according to GZ, natural instinct did not kick in. This is the same natural instinct that “made” GZ pull his gun out and shoot TM.

As some of you on this board have noticed, I with another poster tried out some psychology to see how long before other posters caught on…the score is 2.5.

2.5 times of down/up before it was noticed. 2.5 times “our” collective head was bashed before someone spoke up. 2.5 times before a poster stopped to ask why. Was it 2.5 times before it was asked “Why are you attacking me?”

I think I can state with a degree of certainty that most, if not all, of us would not bother to count the number of times our head was bashed in; our natural instinct would kick in and cause us to fight and to save our life. The evidence shows us that GZ never raised his own hand to save his own life against an attacker that would beat his head to such a point that he would be in diapers for the his life.

Colsnipe!! I gotta say, IMO..... Best Posting Of The

by Alessandra_Deux Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:25 am

art tart wrote:
Alessandra_Deux wrote:

I suggest you visit Talk Left where ALL the interviews are cataloged, I have read the interviews of all the witnesses, it might have been witness 6, but you can check.

I have read the interviews several times, I have the documents. The reason why I ask you to provide the link was because I haven't read a testimony where a witness stated that she/he saw Zimmerman repeatedly trying to get out from underneath Trayvon..... with no success.

by Guest Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:26 am

Alessandra - up thread DebFrmHell mentioned it too being W 6, John. There are 22 witnesses, some are relevant, many are not for various reasons.

It's at: by DebFrmHell Today at 2:01 am

by KimmyK Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:52 am

Pictures of Trayvon Martin 9 days before his death

http://rvalien.tumblr.com/post/21091600710/trayvon-martin-9-days-before-his-death

by Alessandra_Deux Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:53 am

art tart wrote:Alessandra - up thread DebFrmHell mentioned it too being W 6, John. There are 22 witnesses, some are relevant, many are not for various reasons.

Witness #6 change his testimony. When witnesses change their testimony, their credibility become an issue, they can be impeached with prior inconsistent statements. I think that "John" is useless to both, the defense and the prosecution.

by KimmyK Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:07 am

Alessandra_Deux wrote:
art tart wrote:

Freckles - the State will represent TM's rights in the trial, you know that right? You understand that's how our Judicial system works I am assuming. Not ONLY are TM's rights explored at taxpayer's expense, the State has ENDLESS RESOURCES to explore his rights. The good news for you is Freckles, the State NEVER runs out of money to investigate.

Freckles - I have grown TIRED of your accusations that those that want a fair trial for GZ think TM got what he deserved.

The accusation is insulting and an OUTRIGHT LIE, & imo, you know that, it's just an insult to hurl, of course no one believes your statement.

You said it correctly, "If I understand your thinking," the point is, you don't understand a lot apparently as you just make up ridiculous accusations of others.

KZ told you this AGAIN 2 or 3 weeks ago, "no one has said on this thread that TM got what he deserved. NO ONE! I have corrected you countless times for the insult you hurled at me, HOW MANY times is it going to take for you to understand this? Some of our best contributors have left for this type of BS that is hurled at those that state their opinions supporting GZ's right to a fair trial and say it is a pain in the a$$ to have a conversation based on facts as it is almost impossible here.

You continue to confuse the laws that state no one has the right to assault another person for any reason. TM THOUGHT he had rights to give a beat down, he didn't, he broke the law, he didn't have the RIGHT to do so.

Just to state the facts correctly: TM didn't walk in FRONT of a bullet, he was SHOT during an illegal assault of GZ while giving a beat down.

HOW MANY times is it going to take for you to understand this? Some of our best contributors have left for this type of BS that is hurled at those that state their opinions supporting GZ's right to a fair trial and say it is a pain in the a$$ to have a conversation based on facts as it is almost impossible here.

Why is it impossible? Is it because other people disagree with your opinions?

I know that many contributors to this particular thread left a long time ago because they felt it was not the ideal "niche" for self expression. I want to make clear that those members were not Zimmerman's supporters.

This is a discussion forum, everyone here should feel free to voice their opinion at any and every time, their point of view might not be popular to some people but they still have the right to say what they think.

All of the members who have been contributing to this discussion have offered very interesting perspectives about this case, it is clear that not everyone has the same opinions and beliefs, but that is precisely what makes it interesting.

I hate to use this cliché but, we can all agree to disagree.

BBM-
Wow. I missed this post earlier! Very well said Alessandra. Thank you.

It is a different day now, right??? Best Posting Of The

by Guest Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:09 am

Alessandra - W6 changed his testimony as to say that he previously said, "the man on the bottom, which was GZ, repeatedly yelled for HELP, HELP, HELP, but upon thinking about it, he really couldn't see GZ's mouth moving , BUT COMMON SENSE would tell you the person on the bottom was yelling for help." This is not disingenuous imo, it's honesty. I disagree with your thoughts that this witness is useless, ALL the witnesses heard W-6, he saw the altercation, he will be a good witness. BDLR can certainly ask him about the yelling for help and he is just going to say just as he said, "I didn't see the one on bottom mouth moving, but COMMON SENSE suggest it was the one on bottom." There was no reason for TM to yell for help imo, he didn't need any help, he was getting the best of GZ.

He too stated that it looked like TM was doing M (something) fighting moves, but later said he couldn't be sure, maybe TM was just moving his arms in motion.

imo, this is a strong witness, he saw the altercation, he saw GZ getting beaten, they moved from the sidewalk to the grass etc. He called 911, he validates GZ's statement of the altercation DESPITE the interviewer repeatedly asking W-6 about the person on top as if to get W-6 to tell a different story BUT he never wavered that it was TM. (of course he didn't refer to them as TM or GZ, he described them by their clothing.)

There are 2 interviews with this witness, W-6 could never help the State, and in fact, BDLR only ask W-6 one question.

by DebFrmHell Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:35 am

KimmyK wrote:
colsnipe wrote:1. down up
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According GZ, his head was bashed into the sidewalk at least 24 times…Why did he not defend himself? He was counting the number of times his head was being bashed in. Why did he choose to count the number of times his head was bashed in over the preservation of his own life? Where are the defensive wounds? He has none. And yet, according to GZ, natural instinct did not kick in. This is the same natural instinct that “made” GZ pull his gun out and shoot TM.

As some of you on this board have noticed, I with another poster tried out some psychology to see how long before other posters caught on…the score is 2.5.

2.5 times of down/up before it was noticed. 2.5 times “our” collective head was bashed before someone spoke up. 2.5 times before a poster stopped to ask why. Was it 2.5 times before it was asked “Why are you attacking me?”

I think I can state with a degree of certainty that most, if not all, of us would not bother to count the number of times our head was bashed in; our natural instinct would kick in and cause us to fight and to save our life. The evidence shows us that GZ never raised his own hand to save his own life against an attacker that would beat his head to such a point that he would be in diapers for the his life.

Colsnipe!! I gotta say, IMO.....

It doesn't mean that it went unnoticed. I believe I asked you about it. It took a post that promotes itself to warrant any kind of a reaction.

colsnipe wrote: DOWN...

DebFrmHell wrote: So I have to ask. What is up with the UP and DOWN that you are using. Is it some kind of attempt to vote on a post that you either agree or disagree with?

The above came from yesterday morning (10:35am)...Did you factor that in also?

And what about people who only come in every day or so? Not everyone wades thru postings that were made previously. What about people who post that are a "scroll and roll" to others? What about lurkers who don't comment?

Your experiment is flawed. And it has nothing to do with getting your head smashed against concrete. But thanks for playing. Feel free to insert the EYEROLL smilie of your choice.

by Alessandra_Deux Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:42 am

4 Witnesses Change Stories About Night of Trayvon Martin Shooting: Could This Change The Case?

Of the four accounts, Trace Gallagher reports two of the accounts seem to have changed very much, including the man who actually witnessed the fight between Zimmerman and Martin.

That first witness originally told police, “The one guy on top in the black hoodie was pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style … like a ground and pound on the concrete at this point.” But, on March 20, 2012, the story changed to this: “It looked like, you know, he had been hitting him from on top, but you know I can’t truly see how close, you know, they were to each other if he was hitting him or if he was trying to hold him down in that position until the cops got there.”

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/05/23/4-witnesses-change-stories-about-night-of-trayvon-martin-shooting-could-this-change-the-case/

by Guest Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:10 am

W-6 has 3 or 4 interviews, several audios and they are good. imo, he is confident, he was next to the altercation during the altercation and went inside to call 911. He saw them wrestle from the concrete onto the grass.

Jeralyn, Criminal Def Attorney said "the changes in W-6's statement aren't significant to the case." What is important about his testimony is that he saw TM on top of GZ the entire time.

Since W-6 supports GZ, what witness can support the State if any at all? There were no closer witnesses to the altercation than W-6. 2 of W-6's neighbors on one side of W-6 and one on the other side of W-6, but they didn't go outside to witness the altercation.

by DebFrmHell Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:21 am

justanopinion wrote:http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

someone correct me if I am wrong... this witness claims to have heard more than 1 male voice prior to the shot fired..
She saw them wrestling.. not hitting...
and the hispanic man... was wearing a short sleeve shirt

....MOO MOO MOO
GZ was wearing a shirt and a jacket!! the red jacket certainly does not look like a short sleeve shirt!

and who were the voices... a dominant louder one... and another voice..

why does she say she saw someone come there before the police carrying a flashlight... and they talk... and GZ is by himself after the shooting...

just picking what is FACT apart...

You are referring to W18. She is the teacher that was so upset that the dispatcher stayed on the phone with her for a long time. This is the link to her original written statement:
http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf

You can find it on page 88. It is only a paragraph long. The following 13 pages are hers also. They come from the 3/16 interview that was done with Serino, IIRC. It is much easier to read since she is not so tramatized and her handwriting isn't so shaky. Serino begins his questioning on page 5 of the 13. His writing is atrocious so brace yourself for that.

The O'Steen interview that is from the screen capture came much later. I think around 4/4 but don't quote me on that. I need to double check. The link to that is on the other computer. I will look for it later. I know another site that has a pretty good library. The one at TL moved into the evidence thread and I have to admit I have been slow to reestablish all of the links I had before.

This is the TL link to W18 and it discusses the changes in her statement. It does not include the O'Steen interview and those changes:
http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2045.0.html

ETA: Found additional info on W18:
http://www.news4jax.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf
Page 16, Gilbreath's recap.

by Alessandra_Deux Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:47 am

4 Witnesses Change Stories About Night of Trayvon Martin Shooting: Could This Change The Case?

Of the four accounts, Trace Gallagher reports two of the accounts seem to have changed very much, including the man who actually witnessed the fight between Zimmerman and Martin. (Witness #6)

That first witness originally told police, “The one guy on top in the black hoodie was pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style … like a ground and pound on the concrete at this point.” But, on March 20, 2012, the story changed to this: “It looked like, you know, he had been hitting him from on top, but you know I can’t truly see how close, you know, they were to each other if he was hitting him or if he was trying to hold him down in that position until the cops got there.”

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/05/23/4-witnesses-change-stories-about-night-of-trayvon-martin-shooting-could-this-change-the-case/

----------------

Zimmerman Re-enactment Video:

https://youtu.be/VakGZgJxTi4

11:22 mark:

....then somebody come with a flashlight and I thought it was a police officer , so I said are you the police and he said, "no, no, I'm not, I'm calling the police.

And I, said don't call the police, help me restrain this guy, and....he said, "I'm calling the police, I'm calling the police",

And, I said, I already called, they are on their way, they are coming, I need your help....

----------------

Witness #13, the man with the flashlight, never told the police that Zimmerman asked him to help him restrain Trayvon...."don't call the police, help me restrain this guy". But we have "John", Witness #6, saying the folowing:

“It looked like, you know, he had been hitting him from on top, but you know I can’t truly see how close, you know, they were to each other if he was hitting him or if he was trying to hold him down in that position until the cops got there.”

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