George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #2

Twinkle wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:
Twinkle - I think it is okay that I believe that it is the responsible thing to do that the SPD's handling of this case be investigated. You obviously don't. But that does not change my opinion in this regard. I could sit here and list out my reasons, but I don't feel the need to do that since it is my opinion. To do so would only bring more acrimony on this thread. My comment was and is that I believe the SPD should be investigated for the manner in which they handled this case and if I were a member of the Sanford community, as a registered voter, I would be rallying to insure that occurred to completion. Since I am not, there is not much I can do about it - except sign another petition. That's my stance. Other than trying to prove yourself right in my eyes, or try to make my opinion look unreasonable (which I do not believe), I don't know why you cannot agree to disagree. Hmmm? Is it just a matter of having the last word because otherwise I just don't get it. TIA

We are here to discuss the case, which means a back-and-forth sharing of opinions and information. It is as simple as that.If you no longer wish to discuss this, I respect that.

I PM'd you.

Twinkle wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:
The "he ran" sounds resigned, like the "real suspicious guy" is no longer in his sight, and he has acknowledged that he is not to pursue him. He answers all the dispatcher's questions and makes no further mention of TM. He seems resigned to waiting for the police at this point. This does not sound to me like someone who was hot on the trail of TM and closing in on him. Of course, we know that it was about a minute or so between when he ended the call with the dispatcher and when the 911 calls started coming in to report an altercation between GZ and TM.

But the fact is, they did meet up, behind the buildings, so how would Zimmerman have gotten there if not by getting there by himself?

Zimmerman's keys and flashlight were found very close to the cut-through sidewalk, which is consistent with his claim of having been attacked while on that sidewalk headed back to his car. I don't know how they got from that point to where TM's body was found, but will be very interested to see how this is addressed in his statements and the reenactment he did with police.

Gizmo711 wrote:
We seem to be putting logic asside when it comes to Zimmerman.

I agree, but probably not for the same reason! I see many people setting aside logic in search of explanations for how GZ could have sustained the injuries he had without TM laying a finger on him. It amazes me to see people trying to twist the facts to support what they want to believe.

Gizmo711 wrote:The FACTS that we know and have been privy to is that Zimmerman made several 911 calls to report a suspiscious guy (Trayvon), George left his car with a loaded gun. There was NOTHING suspiscious about Trayvon Martin (it was all in Zimmermans head) it was assumed by Zimmerman that Trayvon was suspiscious. We ALL hear Zimmerman out of breath, he acknowledges to the 911 operator that he is following Trayvon. He states on the 911 call "these a$$holes always get away". Trayvon ends up dead in a matter of 60 seconds.

Zimmerman is ALWAYS on the phone with 911, IF Zimmerman was running FROM Trayvon he would have been on the phone with them AGAIN, but he wasn't.

I would suggest if suddenly accosted and punched in the nose, GZ had no time to grab his phone and call 911.

Gizmo711 wrote: And the public is to believe that it was TRAYVON who was in pursuit of ZIMMERMAN? That's NOT logical to me. Trayvons body is found behind the buildings NOT by Zimmermans car, infact no where near where his car could have possibly been, but it was near where Trayvon was staying.

Actually TM was found a lot closer to where Zimmerman's car was likely parked near the cut through than to Brandy Green's home. And also it was not all that far from the cut-through sidewalk, which is where GZ says he was when the altercation began.

Oh, I certainly know where Zimmerman got his scratches from and the "broken nose" (if it was broken). Trayvon did it. The point I am trying to make is, some think it was OK for Zimmerman to be profiling Trayvon, pursuing Trayvon, stalking Trayvon, and shooting Trayvon. However, they want to believe that SUDDENLY, after all that Zimmerman went thru with the 911 call and following this young man thru the complex, that he suddenly decided to take a "JESTER" from the 911 operator to not follow Trayvon any longer and Trayvon ends up dead. But this doesn't make Zimmerman a suspect but it makes Trayvon a suspect? Really? Suddenly the hunted becomes the hunted? A teenager that is only armed with skittles and ice tea is suddenly an attacker? I would think if Trayvon had decided to turn the tables he would have had enough sense to pick up a rock or something on the way.

Gizzmo - I will go one step further - If Trayvon was going to go after GZ, he would have put that Iced Tea can back in the plastic bag and used that to swing and whallop GZ upside the head. Point is, Trayvon was not aggressive according to those that knew him. Can't say that about GZ. JMHO

Twinkle wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:According to the Sanford Chief of police, Bill Lee, who was asked to step down, and Norm Wolfinger, the Brevard and Seminole County State Attorney, who was removed from the case, there was not enough evidence to charge Zimmerman, but the Special Prosecutor who was assigned to the case by the Florida Governor and the Florida Attorney General, found enough evidence to charge him with second degree murder.

First of all, Wolfinger was not removed; he opted to take himself out. And I don't remember Bill Lee being asked to step down, but maybe I missed that detail. As for Corey finding enough evidence to charge 2nd degree murder, she is known to be a very aggressive prosecutor, and has been widely criticized for overcharging in this case. It remains to be seen whether she actually has enough evidence to back up those charges; many are very skeptical. There is also ample cause to suspect that she may have been unduly motivated by political pressure in this case.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:It took 2. 273. 274 signatures and the public's outrage against the Sanford Police Department to get the attention of the USDOJ, the Florida Governor, and the Florida Attorney General.

And let's not forget the Martin family lawyers, the misinformation campaign, and the complicit media altering 911 recordings and creatively misinterpreting a single word uttered by Zimmerman to help gin up the "public's outrage".

Alessandra_Deux wrote:if Trayvon's parents would have built public pressure against the Sanford police, none of them would have gotten involved.

It remains to be seen whether this is a good thing or was entirely necessary. We will see if Corey indeed has enough evidence to support her charges. If somewhere in this process Zimmerman is found to have immunity due to SYG or self defense claims, or if a jury fails to convict him, I fear the consequences of all this public pressure.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:When the Sanford Police become the focus of intense criticism and found themselves in the eye of a firestorm, they started backpedaling.

Backpedaling how?

Trayvon Martin: Special prosecutor appointed in Trayvon Martin shooting case

By Susan Jacobson, Orlando Sentinel

March 22, 2012

Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi have appointed a special prosecutor to investigate the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, removing the state attorney who had been considering the case.

Scott and Bondi appointed State Attorney Angela B. Corey, whose office handles cases in Duval, Clay and Nassau counties.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-22/news/os-trayvon-martin-special-prosecutor-20120322_1_special-prosecutor-task-force-grand-jury

"On March 22 — after several weeks on the job — state attorney Norm Wolfinger stepped down from his role as prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case. Wolfinger relinquished his post after meeting with Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi. He said it was necessary for him to step aside to preserve “the integrity of this investigation” .

~~~~~~

On March 21, with national public interest in the case rising, the Sanford city manager released a letter in which the city police chief answered what he said were frequently asked questions about the shooting.

The letter addresses issues such as why Zimmerman was not arrested and why he was armed. It also answers why the city Police Department hasn't released 911 tapes, though readers should be aware the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office had done so.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/03/28/sanford_files/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

Excerpt:

The Sanford Police Department has conducted a complete and fair investigation of this incident.We have provided the results of our investigation to the Office of the State Attorney for their
review and consideration for possible criminal prosecution.

Although the Police Department is the target of the troubling questions, let me assure you we too
feel the pain of this senseless tragedy that has dramatically affected our community. Therefore,
as we move forward and strive to answer the questions that are a point of controversy in the
community, we ask for your patience, understanding and assistance in getting the correct
information to the community.

Thank you,

Norton N. Bonaparte, Jr., ICMA-CM
City Manager

~~~~~~~

Trayvon Martin Investigator Wanted Manslaughter Charge

By MATT GUTMAN (@mattgutmanABC)
SANFORD, Fla. March 27, 2012

The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.

But Sanford, Fla., Investigator Chris Serino was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman because the state attorney's office headed by Norman Wolfinger determined there wasn't enough evidence to lead to a conviction, the sources told ABC News.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674

~~~~~~~

The initial police reports describe the case as "homicide/negligent" and "manslaughter/unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act." City officials have said that all reports need descriptions to help track types of incidents.

"This code does not indicate a formal charge that will be lodged against an alleged offender,” the city said in a news release on Tuesday. “It is used for internal processing and to type cases.”

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/03/28/sanford_files/Charges_on_Police_Report.pdf

~~~~~~~

Lawyer for Trayvon's family: Wolfinger and police chief met the night teen was killed

By Rene Stutzman and Amy Pavuk, Orlando Sentinel
5:56 p.m. EST, April 2, 2012

Some news agencies have reported that Sanford's lead investigator, Chris Serino, wanted Zimmerman charged with manslaughter that night but Wolfinger's office put a stop to it. The city of Sanford issued a statement saying that is not true.

Police did that night prepare an incident report that lists "manslaughter" as the possible crime being investigated, but in every case in which an officer prepares an incident report, he or she fills in that spot with some crime and statute number to allow the agency to properly report crime statistics to the FBI.

Two weeks ago, during an exclusive interview with the Sentinel, Lee disclosed certain details of the investigation and during that session, attended by Serino and others, Serino said his investigation turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman's account – that he had acted in self-defense.

"The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event," Serino told the Sentinel March 16. "Everything I have is adding up to what he says."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/news/os-trayvon-martin-federal-review-justice-letter-20120402_1_chief-bill-lee-federal-review-federal-agency

CherokeeNative wrote:Gizzmo - I will go one step further - If Trayvon was going to go after GZ, he would have put that Iced Tea can back in the plastic bag and used that to swing and whallop GZ upside the head. Point is, Trayvon was not aggressive according to those that knew him. Can't say that about GZ. JMHO

Exactly...It is plain to see who the aggressor is in this case. And for some to say that the police did their job and that they didn't have enough evidence to make an arrest. WTH? It's not up to the police to decide guilt or innocence, it is up to a jury and judge. We don't or we are not supposed to live in a "police state". If that be the case, than what would be the needs for courts. Zimmerman owned up to shooting Trayvon and he should have been arrested and the investigation turned over to the DA's ofc. Since when do we allow police to determine guilt or innocence?

And for the ones who are riding on the fact that the prosecutor is not saying anything derogortory about the SPD, there is a very good reason for that, they work closely with LE and depend on each other. Although it should not be allowed that LE get a free pass, the prosecutor is not going to be the one to look into it. We have the FBI and other agencies that do that, and i'm sure it will be looked into.

This is interesting...from the blog of a conservative talk show host who has past experience in law enforcement, regarding all the recent reports about witnesses changing their stories.

But there is more. According to two witnesses who spoke directly to me by phone today told me that FDLE investigators used strong armed tactics to get witnesses to change testimony.

It’s a investigator tactic. During my time it these kinds of tactics occurred a lot. In the vernacular it’s called “guidance”. Witnesses told me that investigators used such guidance and in one case actually threatened the witness with charges for “obstruction” if they didn’t “cooperate fully” with the investigation.

“I really felt that no matter what I told them I saw and heard, they had a story in mind that they wanted me to articulate, not what I witnessed”

Yes witnesses change their minds sometimes after time, but not in large groups. When you see this happen it almost always means that witnesses tampering took place.

Of course these witnesses want to remain anonymous

So, Alessandra - slap me upside the head if I am understanding this wrong - but Corey thereafter charged Murder2 - so obviously, Serino's statement that everything adds up to what GZ says was incorrect if we are to believe Corey. Either the SPD's investigation was not thorough or it was biased. Are you of the same opinion?

Twinkle wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:
The "he ran" sounds resigned, like the "real suspicious guy" is no longer in his sight, and he has acknowledged that he is not to pursue him. He answers all the dispatcher's questions and makes no further mention of TM. He seems resigned to waiting for the police at this point. This does not sound to me like someone who was hot on the trail of TM and closing in on him. Of course, we know that it was about a minute or so between when he ended the call with the dispatcher and when the 911 calls started coming in to report an altercation between GZ and TM.

But the fact is, they did meet up, behind the buildings, so how would Zimmerman have gotten there if not by getting there by himself?

Zimmerman's keys and flashlight were found very close to the cut-through sidewalk, which is consistent with his claim of having been attacked while on that sidewalk headed back to his car. I don't know how they got from that point to where TM's body was found, but will be very interested to see how this is addressed in his statements and the reenactment he did with police.

Gizmo711 wrote:
We seem to be putting logic asside when it comes to Zimmerman.

I agree, but probably not for the same reason! I see many people setting aside logic in search of explanations for how GZ could have sustained the injuries he had without TM laying a finger on him. It amazes me to see people trying to twist the facts to support what they want to believe.

Gizmo711 wrote:The FACTS that we know and have been privy to is that Zimmerman made several 911 calls to report a suspiscious guy (Trayvon), George left his car with a loaded gun. There was NOTHING suspiscious about Trayvon Martin (it was all in Zimmermans head) it was assumed by Zimmerman that Trayvon was suspiscious. We ALL hear Zimmerman out of breath, he acknowledges to the 911 operator that he is following Trayvon. He states on the 911 call "these a$$holes always get away". Trayvon ends up dead in a matter of 60 seconds.

Zimmerman is ALWAYS on the phone with 911, IF Zimmerman was running FROM Trayvon he would have been on the phone with them AGAIN, but he wasn't.

I would suggest if suddenly accosted and punched in the nose, GZ had no time to grab his phone and call 911.

Gizmo711 wrote: And the public is to believe that it was TRAYVON who was in pursuit of ZIMMERMAN? That's NOT logical to me. Trayvons body is found behind the buildings NOT by Zimmermans car, infact no where near where his car could have possibly been, but it was near where Trayvon was staying.

Actually TM was found a lot closer to where Zimmerman's car was likely parked near the cut through than to Brandy Green's home. And also it was not all that far from the cut-through sidewalk, which is where GZ says he was when the altercation began.

Was likely parked? Seeing as Zimmerman's wife moved the car I guess we will never really know. However, from where the body of Trayvon lay to the nearest parking spot was not exactly that close. Zimmerman had no business being behind those buildings walking in any direction. The closest his car could have been was on the bend because he would have been blocking someones driveway if anywhere else and his car certainly couldn't be behind the buildings because no car could fit thru there. So we are to believe that maybe Zimmerman was taking a short cut back to his car when attacked from behind with a bag of skittles and a can of ice tea that was found in the pocket of Trayvon? The ONLY weapon that Trayvon would have had at his disposal was that can of ice tea and it was found in his POCKET? So what was Trayvon depending on? his bare hands to "attack" a stalker?

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:
The "he ran" sounds resigned, like the "real suspicious guy" is no longer in his sight, and he has acknowledged that he is not to pursue him. He answers all the dispatcher's questions and makes no further mention of TM. He seems resigned to waiting for the police at this point. This does not sound to me like someone who was hot on the trail of TM and closing in on him. Of course, we know that it was about a minute or so between when he ended the call with the dispatcher and when the 911 calls started coming in to report an altercation between GZ and TM.

But the fact is, they did meet up, behind the buildings, so how would Zimmerman have gotten there if not by getting there by himself?

Zimmerman's keys and flashlight were found very close to the cut-through sidewalk, which is consistent with his claim of having been attacked while on that sidewalk headed back to his car. I don't know how they got from that point to where TM's body was found, but will be very interested to see how this is addressed in his statements and the reenactment he did with police.

Gizmo711 wrote:
We seem to be putting logic asside when it comes to Zimmerman.

I agree, but probably not for the same reason! I see many people setting aside logic in search of explanations for how GZ could have sustained the injuries he had without TM laying a finger on him. It amazes me to see people trying to twist the facts to support what they want to believe.

Gizmo711 wrote:The FACTS that we know and have been privy to is that Zimmerman made several 911 calls to report a suspiscious guy (Trayvon), George left his car with a loaded gun. There was NOTHING suspiscious about Trayvon Martin (it was all in Zimmermans head) it was assumed by Zimmerman that Trayvon was suspiscious. We ALL hear Zimmerman out of breath, he acknowledges to the 911 operator that he is following Trayvon. He states on the 911 call "these a$$holes always get away". Trayvon ends up dead in a matter of 60 seconds.

Zimmerman is ALWAYS on the phone with 911, IF Zimmerman was running FROM Trayvon he would have been on the phone with them AGAIN, but he wasn't.

I would suggest if suddenly accosted and punched in the nose, GZ had no time to grab his phone and call 911.

Gizmo711 wrote: And the public is to believe that it was TRAYVON who was in pursuit of ZIMMERMAN? That's NOT logical to me. Trayvons body is found behind the buildings NOT by Zimmermans car, infact no where near where his car could have possibly been, but it was near where Trayvon was staying.

Actually TM was found a lot closer to where Zimmerman's car was likely parked near the cut through than to Brandy Green's home. And also it was not all that far from the cut-through sidewalk, which is where GZ says he was when the altercation began.

Oh, I certainly know where Zimmerman got his scratches from and the "broken nose" (if it was broken). Trayvon did it. The point I am trying to make is, some think it was OK for Zimmerman to be profiling Trayvon, pursuing Trayvon, stalking Trayvon, and shooting Trayvon. However, they want to believe that SUDDENLY, after all that Zimmerman went thru with the 911 call and following this young man thru the complex, that he suddenly decided to take a "JESTER" from the 911 operator to not follow Trayvon any longer and Trayvon ends up dead. But this doesn't make Zimmerman a suspect but it makes Trayvon a suspect? Really? Suddenly the hunted becomes the hunted? A teenager that is only armed with skittles and ice tea is suddenly an attacker? I would think if Trayvon had decided to turn the tables he would have had enough sense to pick up a rock or something on the way.

The interesting thing is that the tests didn't find Zimmerman's DNA under Trayvon's fingernails, and, Zimmerman's DNA wasn't found either on the cuffs of Trayvon's sweatshirt.

There was definitely a struggle that lasted for a few seconds before the shot was fired, I wonder if Zimmerman fell and hit his head, I also wonder if Trayvon used his cell phone to hit Zimmerman on the face. I don't know if they conducted a DNA analysis of Trayvon's cell phone.

There was blood on the bag of Skittles, I don't know either if they analyzed it to find out whose blood it was.

Twinkle wrote:This is interesting...from the blog of a conservative talk show host who has past experience in law enforcement, regarding all the recent reports about witnesses changing their stories.

But there is more. According to two witnesses who spoke directly to me by phone today told me that FDLE investigators used strong armed tactics to get witnesses to change testimony.

It’s a investigator tactic. During my time it these kinds of tactics occurred a lot. In the vernacular it’s called “guidance”. Witnesses told me that investigators used such guidance and in one case actually threatened the witness with charges for “obstruction” if they didn’t “cooperate fully” with the investigation.

“I really felt that no matter what I told them I saw and heard, they had a story in mind that they wanted me to articulate, not what I witnessed”

Yes witnesses change their minds sometimes after time, but not in large groups. When you see this happen it almost always means that witnesses tampering took place.

Of course these witnesses want to remain anonymous

I find this disturbing. LE investigators are trained how not to "guide" or "lead" a witness so if they purposely did so, it is disturbing. I do know that I read where the SCOTUS has held that where a witness has changed his testimony, it must be disregarded unless the changed testimony is corroborated by other evidence or testimony. I will have to look that case up. So to the extent that these witnesses' changed statements are in accordance with the forensic evidence and/or the statements of other witnesses, they will be considered. Thanks Twinkle.

CherokeeNative wrote:So, Alessandra - slap me upside the head if I am understanding this wrong - but Corey thereafter charged Murder2 - so obviously, Serino's statement that everything adds up to what GZ says was incorrect if we are to believe Corey. Either the SPD's investigation was not thorough or it was biased. Are you of the same opinion?

I simply think that they botched the investigation, I find highly irregular a lot of things that went on. I firmly believe that if Trayvon's parent's wouldn't have launched a massive campaign to bring attention to the killing of an unarmed teenager, Zimmerman would have never been charged, it was the campaign that sparked a firestorm against the Sanford Police what made the Florida Governor and the Florida Attorney General take notice.

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:
The "he ran" sounds resigned, like the "real suspicious guy" is no longer in his sight, and he has acknowledged that he is not to pursue him. He answers all the dispatcher's questions and makes no further mention of TM. He seems resigned to waiting for the police at this point. This does not sound to me like someone who was hot on the trail of TM and closing in on him. Of course, we know that it was about a minute or so between when he ended the call with the dispatcher and when the 911 calls started coming in to report an altercation between GZ and TM.

But the fact is, they did meet up, behind the buildings, so how would Zimmerman have gotten there if not by getting there by himself?

Zimmerman's keys and flashlight were found very close to the cut-through sidewalk, which is consistent with his claim of having been attacked while on that sidewalk headed back to his car. I don't know how they got from that point to where TM's body was found, but will be very interested to see how this is addressed in his statements and the reenactment he did with police.

Gizmo711 wrote:
We seem to be putting logic asside when it comes to Zimmerman.

I agree, but probably not for the same reason! I see many people setting aside logic in search of explanations for how GZ could have sustained the injuries he had without TM laying a finger on him. It amazes me to see people trying to twist the facts to support what they want to believe.

Gizmo711 wrote:The FACTS that we know and have been privy to is that Zimmerman made several 911 calls to report a suspiscious guy (Trayvon), George left his car with a loaded gun. There was NOTHING suspiscious about Trayvon Martin (it was all in Zimmermans head) it was assumed by Zimmerman that Trayvon was suspiscious. We ALL hear Zimmerman out of breath, he acknowledges to the 911 operator that he is following Trayvon. He states on the 911 call "these a$$holes always get away". Trayvon ends up dead in a matter of 60 seconds.

Zimmerman is ALWAYS on the phone with 911, IF Zimmerman was running FROM Trayvon he would have been on the phone with them AGAIN, but he wasn't.

I would suggest if suddenly accosted and punched in the nose, GZ had no time to grab his phone and call 911.

Gizmo711 wrote: And the public is to believe that it was TRAYVON who was in pursuit of ZIMMERMAN? That's NOT logical to me. Trayvons body is found behind the buildings NOT by Zimmermans car, infact no where near where his car could have possibly been, but it was near where Trayvon was staying.

Actually TM was found a lot closer to where Zimmerman's car was likely parked near the cut through than to Brandy Green's home. And also it was not all that far from the cut-through sidewalk, which is where GZ says he was when the altercation began.

Oh, I certainly know where Zimmerman got his scratches from and the "broken nose" (if it was broken). Trayvon did it.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified that I meant other people on message boards, not you. It is obvious from your comments here that you believe the injuries came from TM.

Gizmo711 wrote:The point I am trying to make is, some think it was OK for Zimmerman to be profiling Trayvon, pursuing Trayvon, stalking Trayvon, and shooting Trayvon. However, they want to believe that SUDDENLY, after all that Zimmerman went thru with the 911 call and following this young man thru the complex, that he suddenly decided to take a "JESTER" from the 911 operator to not follow Trayvon any longer and Trayvon ends up dead. But this doesn't make Zimmerman a suspect but it makes Trayvon a suspect? Really? Suddenly the hunted becomes the hunted? A teenager that is only armed with skittles and ice tea is suddenly an attacker? I would think if Trayvon had decided to turn the tables he would have had enough sense to pick up a rock or something on the way.

Thanks for explaining your thoughts on this. I don't know what would make TM suddenly decide to attack GZ, but we do know they ended up in a physical altercation, and GZ was getting the worst of it until he fired his gun. We have a few things to support his account -- witness testimony that TM was on top of GZ, restraining or beating him, and also the fact that GZ's keys were found near where he says the altercation began. As someone pointed out on another site I was reading at, Serino said the facts supported GZ's version of events, and the capias he filled out recommending manslaughter charges was based on the fact that GZ did not stay in his vehicle or, failing that, identify himself to TM as a concerned citizen. The capias request did not accuse GZ of lying or question his account of events. I will be very interested to see what the prosecutions theory is, and what facts they have to support that theory.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:So, Alessandra - slap me upside the head if I am understanding this wrong - but Corey thereafter charged Murder2 - so obviously, Serino's statement that everything adds up to what GZ says was incorrect if we are to believe Corey. Either the SPD's investigation was not thorough or it was biased. Are you of the same opinion?

I simply think that they botched the investigation, I find highly irregular a lot of things that went on. I firmly believe that if Trayvon's parent's would have launched a massive campaign to bring attention to the killing of an unarmed teenager, Zimmerman would have never been charged, it was the campaign that sparked a firestorm against the Sanford Police what made the Florida Governor and the Florida Attorney General take notice.

ITA

--@ Deb.

--i don't recall the SPD's reaction to the department of justice investigation, only that the city manager invited them in-----omara says recently that the DOJ investigation is still underway.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/trayvon-martin-case-department-of-justice-to-investigate-2266580.html

--march 28th---The Trayvon Martin case is bringing more scrutiny on the Sanford Police Department. The Department of Justice will now investigate all cases handled by the police department, after receiving complaints from Sanford citizens.

It's been more than a month since 17-year-old Martin was killed and only a week since the Department of Justice, the U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI launched investigations into why George Zimmerman shot him. Now, the Department of Justice is launching another investigation into the entire Sanford Police Department.

"The citizens of Sanford will continue to have some idea that their concerns would be heard by an independent agency when they have issues with the Sanford Police Department," said Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte.

Bonaparte announced the new investigation Tuesday afternoon after receiving numerous complaints about the way officers handled other cases.

He said that so many people complained at Monday night's city commission meeting about Sanford officers, the city asked the Department of Justice to step in.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/George-Zimmerman-s-attorney-says-more-evidence-to-come/-/1637132/13486818/-/x1vridz/-/index.html

--may 18th--O'Mara said he would seek to obtain records from an ongoing U.S. Justice Department civil rights investigation into whether Zimmerman acted with racial malice.

"That information will either show my client did additional things wrong or, conversely, that they didn't find any evidence that my client did something affecting Trayvon Martin's civil rights in an inappropriate way," O'Mara said.

--although i don't know why omara would seek DOJ info, i thought it was the FBI looking into the civil rights angle and the DOJ looking into the SPD ?

--interesting that omara mentions "additional" things done wrong by george---in addition to what omara?

ellejay wrote:--@ Deb.

--i don't recall the SPD's reaction to the department of justice investigation, only that the city manager invited them in-----omara says recently that the DOJ investigation is still underway.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/trayvon-martin-case-department-of-justice-to-investigate-2266580.html

--march 28th---The Trayvon Martin case is bringing more scrutiny on the Sanford Police Department. The Department of Justice will now investigate all cases handled by the police department, after receiving complaints from Sanford citizens.

It's been more than a month since 17-year-old Martin was killed and only a week since the Department of Justice, the U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI launched investigations into why George Zimmerman shot him. Now, the Department of Justice is launching another investigation into the entire Sanford Police Department.

"The citizens of Sanford will continue to have some idea that their concerns would be heard by an independent agency when they have issues with the Sanford Police Department," said Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte.

Bonaparte announced the new investigation Tuesday afternoon after receiving numerous complaints about the way officers handled other cases.

He said that so many people complained at Monday night's city commission meeting about Sanford officers, the city asked the Department of Justice to step in.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/George-Zimmerman-s-attorney-says-more-evidence-to-come/-/1637132/13486818/-/x1vridz/-/index.html

--may 18th--O'Mara said he would seek to obtain records from an ongoing U.S. Justice Department civil rights investigation into whether Zimmerman acted with racial malice.

"That information will either show my client did additional things wrong or, conversely, that they didn't find any evidence that my client did something affecting Trayvon Martin's civil rights in an inappropriate way," O'Mara said.

--although i don't know why omara would seek DOJ info, i thought it was the FBI looking into the civil rights angle and the DOJ looking into the SPD ?

--interesting that omara mentions "additional" things done wrong by george---in addition to what omara?

I know this was to Deb - but I just wanted to state that I think this goes back to what KZ and I were discussing on THM a while back. I think we conceded (and KZ will correct me if I am wrong, I hope) that the DOJ is most likely sitting back taking a "wait and see" attitude towards whether or not they will initiate their own action against GZ for violations of Trayvon's civil rights. We discussed how that may be why the State's case appears to be purposely ignoring any racial aspect of the case - this would have been a deliberate tactical manuever by the DOJ and State working together - and O'Mara is obviously aware of this and that is what he is referring to. IMO. KZ, if you are reading this, can you give your input?

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:
Actually TM was found a lot closer to where Zimmerman's car was likely parked near the cut through than to Brandy Green's home. And also it was not all that far from the cut-through sidewalk, which is where GZ says he was when the altercation began.

Was likely parked? Seeing as Zimmerman's wife moved the car I guess we will never really know. However, from where the body of Trayvon lay to the nearest parking spot was not exactly that close.

Referring to this map:


https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/the-trayvon-martin-case-update-4-geography-and-narrative-analysis/

Zimmerman told the 911 operator that he was parked near the cut through:

911 dispatcher:

Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]

Zimmerman:

Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]

So, assuming he was driving from his home to the front entrance enroute to Target, and then diverted to follow TM down Twin Trees, the location for GZ's vehicle shown on this map is logical and consistent with what he told the 911 operator. If you study the map, you can easily see that spot where Twin Trees intersects with the cut through is much, much closer to the spot where TM's body was found than Brandy Green's townhouse.

Gizmo711 wrote:Zimmerman had no business being behind those buildings walking in any direction.

As discussed previously, absent GZ's statement or the video of the police reenactment, we don't know how GZ ended up behind the buildings. But since his keys and flashlight were found near the cut through sidewalk, it is reasonable to surmise that the altercation began there, as claimed by GZ, and somehow moved behind the buildings.

Gizmo711 wrote:The closest his car could have been was on the bend because he would have been blocking someones driveway if anywhere else and his car certainly couldn't be behind the buildings because no car could fit thru there. So we are to believe that maybe Zimmerman was taking a short cut back to his car when attacked from behind with a bag of skittles and a can of ice tea that was found in the pocket of Trayvon?

I see no need for any such theory at this point. Since some of GZ's belongings were found near the cut through, it is a reasonable assumption that he was exactly where he said he was when the altercation began.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-24/news/os-george-zimmerman-secret-witnesses-20120524_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-witness-safety-trial
Legal fight likely looms over identifying witnesses in Zimmerman case

Media companies are expected to intervene, seeking to force the state to release the names, in what boils down to a struggle between the public's right to know and the defendant's right to a fair trial.
~~~~~~~

The prosecution filed a motion seeking to seal that and other information Wednesday. But Special Prosecutor Angela Corey's office redacted the information from the evidence released last week anyway, citing state statute.

John D. Kaney Jr., a Daytona Beach First Amendment lawyer and general counsel of the nonprofit First Amendment Foundation, said Corey likely overstepped by redacting the witness information without the judge's direction.

"I don't know of any situation where a prosecutor made the unilateral decision to keep any part of the records secret, closed, after the exemption for investigation has expired, which this one has," Kaney said. "She has to do that in a motion to the court. She can't just do that on her own call."
~~~~~~

As Casey Anthony prepared for trial in the death of her daughter, her defense lawyers asked Judge Belvin Perry Jr. to seal the names of several witnesses who were expected to testify before sentencing, if she were convicted.

Perry ruled the names should remain public, noting that sealing the information would only delay the inevitable. If called to the stand, he said, a witness "will testify in an open courtroom and be publicly identified with this case."

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:
The "he ran" sounds resigned, like the "real suspicious guy" is no longer in his sight, and he has acknowledged that he is not to pursue him. He answers all the dispatcher's questions and makes no further mention of TM. He seems resigned to waiting for the police at this point. This does not sound to me like someone who was hot on the trail of TM and closing in on him. Of course, we know that it was about a minute or so between when he ended the call with the dispatcher and when the 911 calls started coming in to report an altercation between GZ and TM.

But the fact is, they did meet up, behind the buildings, so how would Zimmerman have gotten there if not by getting there by himself?

Zimmerman's keys and flashlight were found very close to the cut-through sidewalk, which is consistent with his claim of having been attacked while on that sidewalk headed back to his car. I don't know how they got from that point to where TM's body was found, but will be very interested to see how this is addressed in his statements and the reenactment he did with police.

Gizmo711 wrote:
We seem to be putting logic asside when it comes to Zimmerman.

I agree, but probably not for the same reason! I see many people setting aside logic in search of explanations for how GZ could have sustained the injuries he had without TM laying a finger on him. It amazes me to see people trying to twist the facts to support what they want to believe.

Gizmo711 wrote:The FACTS that we know and have been privy to is that Zimmerman made several 911 calls to report a suspiscious guy (Trayvon), George left his car with a loaded gun. There was NOTHING suspiscious about Trayvon Martin (it was all in Zimmermans head) it was assumed by Zimmerman that Trayvon was suspiscious. We ALL hear Zimmerman out of breath, he acknowledges to the 911 operator that he is following Trayvon. He states on the 911 call "these a$$holes always get away". Trayvon ends up dead in a matter of 60 seconds.

Zimmerman is ALWAYS on the phone with 911, IF Zimmerman was running FROM Trayvon he would have been on the phone with them AGAIN, but he wasn't.

I would suggest if suddenly accosted and punched in the nose, GZ had no time to grab his phone and call 911.

Gizmo711 wrote: And the public is to believe that it was TRAYVON who was in pursuit of ZIMMERMAN? That's NOT logical to me. Trayvons body is found behind the buildings NOT by Zimmermans car, infact no where near where his car could have possibly been, but it was near where Trayvon was staying.

Actually TM was found a lot closer to where Zimmerman's car was likely parked near the cut through than to Brandy Green's home. And also it was not all that far from the cut-through sidewalk, which is where GZ says he was when the altercation began.

Oh, I certainly know where Zimmerman got his scratches from and the "broken nose" (if it was broken). Trayvon did it. The point I am trying to make is, some think it was OK for Zimmerman to be profiling Trayvon, pursuing Trayvon, stalking Trayvon, and shooting Trayvon. However, they want to believe that SUDDENLY, after all that Zimmerman went thru with the 911 call and following this young man thru the complex, that he suddenly decided to take a "JESTER" from the 911 operator to not follow Trayvon any longer and Trayvon ends up dead. But this doesn't make Zimmerman a suspect but it makes Trayvon a suspect? Really? Suddenly the hunted becomes the hunted? A teenager that is only armed with skittles and ice tea is suddenly an attacker? I would think if Trayvon had decided to turn the tables he would have had enough sense to pick up a rock or something on the way.

The interesting thing is that the tests didn't find Zimmerman's DNA under Trayvon's fingernails, and, Zimmerman's DNA wasn't found either on the cuffs of Trayvon's sweatshirt.

There was definitely a struggle that lasted for a few seconds before the shot was fired, I wonder if Zimmerman fell and hit his head, I also wonder if Trayvon used his cell phone to hit Zimmerman on the face. I don't know if they conducted a DNA analysis of Trayvon's cell phone.

There was blood on the bag of Skittles, I don't know either if they analyzed it to find out whose blood it was.

Let us not forget that they did find GZ's blood on TM's shirt.

Twinkle wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:
The "he ran" sounds resigned, like the "real suspicious guy" is no longer in his sight, and he has acknowledged that he is not to pursue him. He answers all the dispatcher's questions and makes no further mention of TM. He seems resigned to waiting for the police at this point. This does not sound to me like someone who was hot on the trail of TM and closing in on him. Of course, we know that it was about a minute or so between when he ended the call with the dispatcher and when the 911 calls started coming in to report an altercation between GZ and TM.

But the fact is, they did meet up, behind the buildings, so how would Zimmerman have gotten there if not by getting there by himself?

Zimmerman's keys and flashlight were found very close to the cut-through sidewalk, which is consistent with his claim of having been attacked while on that sidewalk headed back to his car. I don't know how they got from that point to where TM's body was found, but will be very interested to see how this is addressed in his statements and the reenactment he did with police.

Gizmo711 wrote:
We seem to be putting logic asside when it comes to Zimmerman.

I agree, but probably not for the same reason! I see many people setting aside logic in search of explanations for how GZ could have sustained the injuries he had without TM laying a finger on him. It amazes me to see people trying to twist the facts to support what they want to believe.

Gizmo711 wrote:The FACTS that we know and have been privy to is that Zimmerman made several 911 calls to report a suspiscious guy (Trayvon), George left his car with a loaded gun. There was NOTHING suspiscious about Trayvon Martin (it was all in Zimmermans head) it was assumed by Zimmerman that Trayvon was suspiscious. We ALL hear Zimmerman out of breath, he acknowledges to the 911 operator that he is following Trayvon. He states on the 911 call "these a$$holes always get away". Trayvon ends up dead in a matter of 60 seconds.

Zimmerman is ALWAYS on the phone with 911, IF Zimmerman was running FROM Trayvon he would have been on the phone with them AGAIN, but he wasn't.

I would suggest if suddenly accosted and punched in the nose, GZ had no time to grab his phone and call 911.

Gizmo711 wrote: And the public is to believe that it was TRAYVON who was in pursuit of ZIMMERMAN? That's NOT logical to me. Trayvons body is found behind the buildings NOT by Zimmermans car, infact no where near where his car could have possibly been, but it was near where Trayvon was staying.

Actually TM was found a lot closer to where Zimmerman's car was likely parked near the cut through than to Brandy Green's home. And also it was not all that far from the cut-through sidewalk, which is where GZ says he was when the altercation began.

Oh, I certainly know where Zimmerman got his scratches from and the "broken nose" (if it was broken). Trayvon did it.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified that I meant other people on message boards, not you. It is obvious from your comments here that you believe the injuries came from TM.

Gizmo711 wrote:The point I am trying to make is, some think it was OK for Zimmerman to be profiling Trayvon, pursuing Trayvon, stalking Trayvon, and shooting Trayvon. However, they want to believe that SUDDENLY, after all that Zimmerman went thru with the 911 call and following this young man thru the complex, that he suddenly decided to take a "JESTER" from the 911 operator to not follow Trayvon any longer and Trayvon ends up dead. But this doesn't make Zimmerman a suspect but it makes Trayvon a suspect? Really? Suddenly the hunted becomes the hunted? A teenager that is only armed with skittles and ice tea is suddenly an attacker? I would think if Trayvon had decided to turn the tables he would have had enough sense to pick up a rock or something on the way.

Thanks for explaining your thoughts on this. I don't know what would make TM suddenly decide to attack GZ, but we do know they ended up in a physical altercation, and GZ was getting the worst of it until he fired his gun. We have a few things to support his account -- witness testimony that TM was on top of GZ, restraining or beating him, and also the fact that GZ's keys were found near where he says the altercation began. As someone pointed out on another site I was reading at, Serino said the facts supported GZ's version of events, and the capias he filled out recommending manslaughter charges was based on the fact that GZ did not stay in his vehicle or, failing that, identify himself to TM as a concerned citizen. The capias request did not accuse GZ of lying or question his account of events. I will be very interested to see what the prosecutions theory is, and what facts they have to support that theory.

What made Trayvon "suddenly attack" Zimmerman? What about the right to defend himself from someone following him in the dark?

If Trayvon perceived Zimmerman as a suspicious character who represented an imminent threat to his life, he was right, he ended up dead. Zimmerman had a concealed weapon and he used it against him.

Zimmerman made a grave mistake when he profiled Trayvon as a criminal, followed him, and confronted him. He was the neighborhood watch coordinator, he was instructed on what to do by Wendy Dorival, the police officer who helped him to set up the program.

Zimmerman 911 Call

Excerpt:

911 dispatcher:

Are you following him? [2:24]

Zimmerman:

Yeah. [2:25]

911 dispatcher:

OK.

We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

Zimmerman:

OK. [2:28]

911 dispatcher:

Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34]

Zimmerman:

George. He ran.

911 dispatcher:

Alright, George, what’s your last name?


The dispatcher was not concerned about the fact that Trayvon had ran, Zimmerman was.

Twinkle wrote:This is interesting...from the blog of a conservative talk show host who has past experience in law enforcement, regarding all the recent reports about witnesses changing their stories.

But there is more. According to two witnesses who spoke directly to me by phone today told me that FDLE investigators used strong armed tactics to get witnesses to change testimony.

It’s a investigator tactic. During my time it these kinds of tactics occurred a lot. In the vernacular it’s called “guidance”. Witnesses told me that investigators used such guidance and in one case actually threatened the witness with charges for “obstruction” if they didn’t “cooperate fully” with the investigation.

“I really felt that no matter what I told them I saw and heard, they had a story in mind that they wanted me to articulate, not what I witnessed”

Yes witnesses change their minds sometimes after time, but not in large groups. When you see this happen it almost always means that witnesses tampering took place.

Of course these witnesses want to remain anonymous

Twinkle since you put this out there may I ask if the talk show host actually vetted the callers? I mean how would they know that it wasn't say -me- who called in? How would the talk show host verify that these people are even witnesses?

Twinkle wrote:

Referring to this map:


https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/the-trayvon-martin-case-update-4-geography-and-narrative-analysis/

There have been so many maps with various guesses of where GZ's car was parked and this one seems to make perfect sense in that aspect. But the spot marked "confrontation" is confusing to me. This is the point where Trayvon's body was, correct? I was under the assumption from the witnesses' statements that the initial "confrontation" or meeting of the two occurred further towards where Trayvon was staying - down 1 building or so - and that the actual ground altercation occurred at the "confrontation" mark. Are we in agreement with that, or am I missing something? Thanks All.

CherokeeNative wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:
Twinkle - I think it is okay that I believe that it is the responsible thing to do that the SPD's handling of this case be investigated. You obviously don't. But that does not change my opinion in this regard. I could sit here and list out my reasons, but I don't feel the need to do that since it is my opinion. To do so would only bring more acrimony on this thread. My comment was and is that I believe the SPD should be investigated for the manner in which they handled this case and if I were a member of the Sanford community, as a registered voter, I would be rallying to insure that occurred to completion. Since I am not, there is not much I can do about it - except sign another petition. That's my stance. Other than trying to prove yourself right in my eyes, or try to make my opinion look unreasonable (which I do not believe), I don't know why you cannot agree to disagree. Hmmm? Is it just a matter of having the last word because otherwise I just don't get it. TIA

We are here to discuss the case, which means a back-and-forth sharing of opinions and information. It is as simple as that.If you no longer wish to discuss this, I respect that.

I PM'd you.

Got it! Thanks, and yes, it's all good!

Porky wrote:

Twinkle wrote:This is interesting...from the blog of a conservative talk show host who has past experience in law enforcement, regarding all the recent reports about witnesses changing their stories.

But there is more. According to two witnesses who spoke directly to me by phone today told me that FDLE investigators used strong armed tactics to get witnesses to change testimony.

It’s a investigator tactic. During my time it these kinds of tactics occurred a lot. In the vernacular it’s called “guidance”. Witnesses told me that investigators used such guidance and in one case actually threatened the witness with charges for “obstruction” if they didn’t “cooperate fully” with the investigation.

“I really felt that no matter what I told them I saw and heard, they had a story in mind that they wanted me to articulate, not what I witnessed”

Yes witnesses change their minds sometimes after time, but not in large groups. When you see this happen it almost always means that witnesses tampering took place.

Of course these witnesses want to remain anonymous

Twinkle since you put this out there may I ask if the talk show host actually vetted the callers? I mean how would they know that it wasn't say -me- who called in? How would the talk show host verify that these people are even witnesses?

Absolutely true; we have no way of knowing that the people he talked to were really witnesses. So as with anything else like this, we can take it with a grain of salt. I did find his comment, as someone who has worked in law enforcement, that pressuring witnesses is a commonly used investigative tactic telling, though. People have been putting such significance into these changes in witness testimony, and this suggests that it is in fact not unusual. (Though the blogger thinks the number of witnesses who changed their testimony in this particular case is.)

Yep, Lee and Wolfinger were removed. Statements from the police were that the investigation was "complete". Their were witnesses who werent having their alls returned- their "agenda" was to see their was a fair in investigation. Witness said the cops were telling THEM what happened from the get go. There's your witness tampering - from the SPD.
An insult to all residents of Sanford.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:According to the Sanford Chief of police, Bill Lee, who was asked to step down, and Norm Wolfinger, the Brevard and Seminole County State Attorney, who was removed from the case, there was not enough evidence to charge Zimmerman, but the Special Prosecutor who was assigned to the case by the Florida Governor and the Florida Attorney General, found enough evidence to charge him with second degree murder.

First of all, Wolfinger was not removed; he opted to take himself out. And I don't remember Bill Lee being asked to step down, but maybe I missed that detail. As for Corey finding enough evidence to charge 2nd degree murder, she is known to be a very aggressive prosecutor, and has been widely criticized for overcharging in this case. It remains to be seen whether she actually has enough evidence to back up those charges; many are very skeptical. There is also ample cause to suspect that she may have been unduly motivated by political pressure in this case.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:It took 2. 273. 274 signatures and the public's outrage against the Sanford Police Department to get the attention of the USDOJ, the Florida Governor, and the Florida Attorney General.

And let's not forget the Martin family lawyers, the misinformation campaign, and the complicit media altering 911 recordings and creatively misinterpreting a single word uttered by Zimmerman to help gin up the "public's outrage".

Alessandra_Deux wrote:if Trayvon's parents would have built public pressure against the Sanford police, none of them would have gotten involved.

It remains to be seen whether this is a good thing or was entirely necessary. We will see if Corey indeed has enough evidence to support her charges. If somewhere in this process Zimmerman is found to have immunity due to SYG or self defense claims, or if a jury fails to convict him, I fear the consequences of all this public pressure.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:When the Sanford Police become the focus of intense criticism and found themselves in the eye of a firestorm, they started backpedaling.

Backpedaling how?

Trayvon Martin: Special prosecutor appointed in Trayvon Martin shooting case

By Susan Jacobson, Orlando Sentinel

March 22, 2012

Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi have appointed a special prosecutor to investigate the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, removing the state attorney who had been considering the case.

Scott and Bondi appointed State Attorney Angela B. Corey, whose office handles cases in Duval, Clay and Nassau counties.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-22/news/os-trayvon-martin-special-prosecutor-20120322_1_special-prosecutor-task-force-grand-jury

"On March 22 — after several weeks on the job — state attorney Norm Wolfinger stepped down from his role as prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case. Wolfinger relinquished his post after meeting with Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi. He said it was necessary for him to step aside to preserve “the integrity of this investigation” .

~~~~~~

On March 21, with national public interest in the case rising, the Sanford city manager released a letter in which the city police chief answered what he said were frequently asked questions about the shooting.

The letter addresses issues such as why Zimmerman was not arrested and why he was armed. It also answers why the city Police Department hasn't released 911 tapes, though readers should be aware the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office had done so.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/03/28/sanford_files/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

Excerpt:

The Sanford Police Department has conducted a complete and fair investigation of this incident.We have provided the results of our investigation to the Office of the State Attorney for their
review and consideration for possible criminal prosecution.

Although the Police Department is the target of the troubling questions, let me assure you we too
feel the pain of this senseless tragedy that has dramatically affected our community. Therefore,
as we move forward and strive to answer the questions that are a point of controversy in the
community, we ask for your patience, understanding and assistance in getting the correct
information to the community.

Thank you,

Norton N. Bonaparte, Jr., ICMA-CM
City Manager

~~~~~~~

Trayvon Martin Investigator Wanted Manslaughter Charge

By MATT GUTMAN (@mattgutmanABC)
SANFORD, Fla. March 27, 2012

The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.

But Sanford, Fla., Investigator Chris Serino was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman because the state attorney's office headed by Norman Wolfinger determined there wasn't enough evidence to lead to a conviction, the sources told ABC News.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674

~~~~~~~

The initial police reports describe the case as "homicide/negligent" and "manslaughter/unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act." City officials have said that all reports need descriptions to help track types of incidents.

"This code does not indicate a formal charge that will be lodged against an alleged offender,” the city said in a news release on Tuesday. “It is used for internal processing and to type cases.”

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/03/28/sanford_files/Charges_on_Police_Report.pdf

~~~~~~~

Lawyer for Trayvon's family: Wolfinger and police chief met the night teen was killed

By Rene Stutzman and Amy Pavuk, Orlando Sentinel
5:56 p.m. EST, April 2, 2012

Some news agencies have reported that Sanford's lead investigator, Chris Serino, wanted Zimmerman charged with manslaughter that night but Wolfinger's office put a stop to it. The city of Sanford issued a statement saying that is not true.

Police did that night prepare an incident report that lists "manslaughter" as the possible crime being investigated, but in every case in which an officer prepares an incident report, he or she fills in that spot with some crime and statute number to allow the agency to properly report crime statistics to the FBI.

Two weeks ago, during an exclusive interview with the Sentinel, Lee disclosed certain details of the investigation and during that session, attended by Serino and others, Serino said his investigation turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman's account – that he had acted in self-defense.

"The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event," Serino told the Sentinel March 16. "Everything I have is adding up to what he says."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/news/os-trayvon-martin-federal-review-justice-letter-20120402_1_chief-bill-lee-federal-review-federal-agency

CherokeeNative wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

Referring to this map:


https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/the-trayvon-martin-case-update-4-geography-and-narrative-analysis/

There have been so many maps with various guesses of where GZ's car was parked and this one seems to make perfect sense in that aspect. But the spot marked "confrontation" is confusing to me. This is the point where Trayvon's body was, correct? I was under the assumption from the witnesses' statements that the initial "confrontation" or meeting of the two occurred further towards where Trayvon was staying - down 1 building or so - and that the actual ground altercation occurred at the "confrontation" mark. Are we in agreement with that, or am I missing something? Thanks All.

You're right, I don't know if anyone thinks the confrontation actually started where this map indicates. Until I see more evidence, I tend to think it began somewhere near the intersection of the cut through sidewalk and the sidewalk running behind the houses; this is where GZ's keys and flashlight were found. But I know there are other theories out there.

(I only posted this particular map to demonstrate the distance between GZ's vehicle and where TM's body was found, relative to Brandy Green's home.)

CherokeeNative wrote:

ellejay wrote:--@ Deb.

--i don't recall the SPD's reaction to the department of justice investigation, only that the city manager invited them in-----omara says recently that the DOJ investigation is still underway.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/trayvon-martin-case-department-of-justice-to-investigate-2266580.html

--march 28th---The Trayvon Martin case is bringing more scrutiny on the Sanford Police Department. The Department of Justice will now investigate all cases handled by the police department, after receiving complaints from Sanford citizens.

It's been more than a month since 17-year-old Martin was killed and only a week since the Department of Justice, the U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI launched investigations into why George Zimmerman shot him. Now, the Department of Justice is launching another investigation into the entire Sanford Police Department.

"The citizens of Sanford will continue to have some idea that their concerns would be heard by an independent agency when they have issues with the Sanford Police Department," said Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte.

Bonaparte announced the new investigation Tuesday afternoon after receiving numerous complaints about the way officers handled other cases.

He said that so many people complained at Monday night's city commission meeting about Sanford officers, the city asked the Department of Justice to step in.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/George-Zimmerman-s-attorney-says-more-evidence-to-come/-/1637132/13486818/-/x1vridz/-/index.html

--may 18th--O'Mara said he would seek to obtain records from an ongoing U.S. Justice Department civil rights investigation into whether Zimmerman acted with racial malice.

"That information will either show my client did additional things wrong or, conversely, that they didn't find any evidence that my client did something affecting Trayvon Martin's civil rights in an inappropriate way," O'Mara said.

--although i don't know why omara would seek DOJ info, i thought it was the FBI looking into the civil rights angle and the DOJ looking into the SPD ?

--interesting that omara mentions "additional" things done wrong by george---in addition to what omara?

I know this was to Deb - but I just wanted to state that I think this goes back to what KZ and I were discussing on THM a while back. I think we conceded (and KZ will correct me if I am wrong, I hope) that the DOJ is most likely sitting back taking a "wait and see" attitude towards whether or not they will initiate their own action against GZ for violations of Trayvon's civil rights. We discussed how that may be why the State's case appears to be purposely ignoring any racial aspect of the case - this would have been a deliberate tactical manuever by the DOJ and State working together - and O'Mara is obviously aware of this and that is what he is referring to. IMO. KZ, if you are reading this, can you give your input?

I know this wasn't addressed to me but I thought the FBI would investigate if Martin civil rights were violated and the DOJ would be investigation how the police and DA handled the case.

snowbird wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

ellejay wrote:--@ Deb.

--i don't recall the SPD's reaction to the department of justice investigation, only that the city manager invited them in-----omara says recently that the DOJ investigation is still underway.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/trayvon-martin-case-department-of-justice-to-investigate-2266580.html

--march 28th---The Trayvon Martin case is bringing more scrutiny on the Sanford Police Department. The Department of Justice will now investigate all cases handled by the police department, after receiving complaints from Sanford citizens.

It's been more than a month since 17-year-old Martin was killed and only a week since the Department of Justice, the U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI launched investigations into why George Zimmerman shot him. Now, the Department of Justice is launching another investigation into the entire Sanford Police Department.

"The citizens of Sanford will continue to have some idea that their concerns would be heard by an independent agency when they have issues with the Sanford Police Department," said Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte.

Bonaparte announced the new investigation Tuesday afternoon after receiving numerous complaints about the way officers handled other cases.

He said that so many people complained at Monday night's city commission meeting about Sanford officers, the city asked the Department of Justice to step in.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/George-Zimmerman-s-attorney-says-more-evidence-to-come/-/1637132/13486818/-/x1vridz/-/index.html

--may 18th--O'Mara said he would seek to obtain records from an ongoing U.S. Justice Department civil rights investigation into whether Zimmerman acted with racial malice.

"That information will either show my client did additional things wrong or, conversely, that they didn't find any evidence that my client did something affecting Trayvon Martin's civil rights in an inappropriate way," O'Mara said.

--although i don't know why omara would seek DOJ info, i thought it was the FBI looking into the civil rights angle and the DOJ looking into the SPD ?

--interesting that omara mentions "additional" things done wrong by george---in addition to what omara?

I know this was to Deb - but I just wanted to state that I think this goes back to what KZ and I were discussing on THM a while back. I think we conceded (and KZ will correct me if I am wrong, I hope) that the DOJ is most likely sitting back taking a "wait and see" attitude towards whether or not they will initiate their own action against GZ for violations of Trayvon's civil rights. We discussed how that may be why the State's case appears to be purposely ignoring any racial aspect of the case - this would have been a deliberate tactical manuever by the DOJ and State working together - and O'Mara is obviously aware of this and that is what he is referring to. IMO. KZ, if you are reading this, can you give your input?

I know this wasn't addressed to me but I thought the FBI would investigate if Martin civil rights were violated and the DOJ would be investigation how the police and DA handled the case.

Actually Snowbird, I think it is the exact opposite - but I cannot state that for positive. I know the U.S. Attorney is a member of the DOJ - and it would be a U.S. Attorney who initiated any action that were to be forthcoming. I have to take off, but I will delve into it when I get back.

Twinkle wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:
The "he ran" sounds resigned, like the "real suspicious guy" is no longer in his sight, and he has acknowledged that he is not to pursue him. He answers all the dispatcher's questions and makes no further mention of TM. He seems resigned to waiting for the police at this point. This does not sound to me like someone who was hot on the trail of TM and closing in on him. Of course, we know that it was about a minute or so between when he ended the call with the dispatcher and when the 911 calls started coming in to report an altercation between GZ and TM.

But the fact is, they did meet up, behind the buildings, so how would Zimmerman have gotten there if not by getting there by himself?

Zimmerman's keys and flashlight were found very close to the cut-through sidewalk, which is consistent with his claim of having been attacked while on that sidewalk headed back to his car. I don't know how they got from that point to where TM's body was found, but will be very interested to see how this is addressed in his statements and the reenactment he did with police.

Gizmo711 wrote:
We seem to be putting logic asside when it comes to Zimmerman.

I agree, but probably not for the same reason! I see many people setting aside logic in search of explanations for how GZ could have sustained the injuries he had without TM laying a finger on him. It amazes me to see people trying to twist the facts to support what they want to believe.

Gizmo711 wrote:The FACTS that we know and have been privy to is that Zimmerman made several 911 calls to report a suspiscious guy (Trayvon), George left his car with a loaded gun. There was NOTHING suspiscious about Trayvon Martin (it was all in Zimmermans head) it was assumed by Zimmerman that Trayvon was suspiscious. We ALL hear Zimmerman out of breath, he acknowledges to the 911 operator that he is following Trayvon. He states on the 911 call "these a$$holes always get away". Trayvon ends up dead in a matter of 60 seconds.

Zimmerman is ALWAYS on the phone with 911, IF Zimmerman was running FROM Trayvon he would have been on the phone with them AGAIN, but he wasn't.

I would suggest if suddenly accosted and punched in the nose, GZ had no time to grab his phone and call 911.

Gizmo711 wrote: And the public is to believe that it was TRAYVON who was in pursuit of ZIMMERMAN? That's NOT logical to me. Trayvons body is found behind the buildings NOT by Zimmermans car, infact no where near where his car could have possibly been, but it was near where Trayvon was staying.

Actually TM was found a lot closer to where Zimmerman's car was likely parked near the cut through than to Brandy Green's home. And also it was not all that far from the cut-through sidewalk, which is where GZ says he was when the altercation began.

Oh, I certainly know where Zimmerman got his scratches from and the "broken nose" (if it was broken). Trayvon did it. The point I am trying to make is, some think it was OK for Zimmerman to be profiling Trayvon, pursuing Trayvon, stalking Trayvon, and shooting Trayvon. However, they want to believe that SUDDENLY, after all that Zimmerman went thru with the 911 call and following this young man thru the complex, that he suddenly decided to take a "JESTER" from the 911 operator to not follow Trayvon any longer and Trayvon ends up dead. But this doesn't make Zimmerman a suspect but it makes Trayvon a suspect? Really? Suddenly the hunted becomes the hunted? A teenager that is only armed with skittles and ice tea is suddenly an attacker? I would think if Trayvon had decided to turn the tables he would have had enough sense to pick up a rock or something on the way.

The interesting thing is that the tests didn't find Zimmerman's DNA under Trayvon's fingernails, and, Zimmerman's DNA wasn't found either on the cuffs of Trayvon's sweatshirt.

There was definitely a struggle that lasted for a few seconds before the shot was fired, I wonder if Zimmerman fell and hit his head, I also wonder if Trayvon used his cell phone to hit Zimmerman on the face. I don't know if they conducted a DNA analysis of Trayvon's cell phone.

There was blood on the bag of Skittles, I don't know either if they analyzed it to find out whose blood it was.

Let us not forget that they did find GZ's blood on TM's shirt.

There is a descrepancy in the ME-8 and ME-12 in that report from the lab.

I typed out all of that DNA and how/where/what it was related to and by whom but my computer froze up and I lost it on restart.

My reaction!

Top of page 108:
ME-8 Stain A
This DNA profile is consistant with originating from a male individual and matches the DNA profile from George Michael Zimmerman. ((Blood. From page 107))

ME-8 Stain B
Is consistant with Trayvon Martin

ME-8 Stain D
Both Zimmerman and Martin "are included as possible contributors to the mixed DNA"

Twinkle wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:
Actually TM was found a lot closer to where Zimmerman's car was likely parked near the cut through than to Brandy Green's home. And also it was not all that far from the cut-through sidewalk, which is where GZ says he was when the altercation began.

Was likely parked? Seeing as Zimmerman's wife moved the car I guess we will never really know. However, from where the body of Trayvon lay to the nearest parking spot was not exactly that close.

Referring to this map:


https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/the-trayvon-martin-case-update-4-geography-and-narrative-analysis/

Zimmerman told the 911 operator that he was parked near the cut through:

911 dispatcher:

Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]

Zimmerman:

Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]

So, assuming he was driving from his home to the front entrance enroute to Target, and then diverted to follow TM down Twin Trees, the location for GZ's vehicle shown on this map is logical and consistent with what he told the 911 operator. If you study the map, you can easily see that spot where Twin Trees intersects with the cut through is much, much closer to the spot where TM's body was found than Brandy Green's townhouse.

Gizmo711 wrote:Zimmerman had no business being behind those buildings walking in any direction.

As discussed previously, absent GZ's statement or the video of the police reenactment, we don't know how GZ ended up behind the buildings. But since his keys and flashlight were found near the cut through sidewalk, it is reasonable to surmise that the altercation began there, as claimed by GZ, and somehow moved behind the buildings.

Gizmo711 wrote:The closest his car could have been was on the bend because he would have been blocking someones driveway if anywhere else and his car certainly couldn't be behind the buildings because no car could fit thru there. So we are to believe that maybe Zimmerman was taking a short cut back to his car when attacked from behind with a bag of skittles and a can of ice tea that was found in the pocket of Trayvon?

I see no need for any such theory at this point. Since some of GZ's belongings were found near the cut through, it is a reasonable assumption that he was exactly where he said he was when the altercation began.

I do not doubt that what Zimmerman told the police where the attack happened and where his car was actually, was the truth. He couldn't lie at that point, the proof was there. However, if you see the map, it shows a straight run to where Trayvon was staying. It is NOT a straight run to where Zimmermans car was.

If (and i'm sure it was) Trayvon fought Zimmerman, why wouldn't he? Trayvon was obviously being followed and stalked by this strange man for no reason, he was trying to make it home and was being followed without being told why. Anyone and I mean anyone would have felt that they had to fight their way out of this situation. For one, what was the reason that Zimmerman didn't announce himself to Trayvon? Why would anyone think that another individual thinks that they had the right to ask me what I was doing there, if you are a cop, it would have been stated. So why is it odd to see that Trayvon put up a real good fight for his life but because the hunter had a gun Trayvon lost the fight.

The whole thing started with Zimmerman and ended with Zimmerman so how can we logically think that in between Trayvon suddenly became the aggressor. There is no in between here, Zimmerman started this and finished it, the in between was Trayvon fighting for his life, that was the in between, a fight that he lost.

One cannot start a fight, finish a fight and then say "Oh he attacked me before I shot him". This should not be a case where Trayvon has to prove his innocence, but that Zimmerman has to prove self defense against someone that he initiated the altercation with. And that is not going to be an easy task.

If Zimmerman would have kept his butt in his car along with his 9mm nothing would have happened. But nooooo, he had to stalk this teenager until something did take place. He can't claim self defense, there is too much evidence (911 calls, altercation heard by thrid party and the shot)...Zimmerman has a uphill battle trying to prove self defense.

CherokeeNative wrote:

snowbird wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

ellejay wrote:--@ Deb.

--i don't recall the SPD's reaction to the department of justice investigation, only that the city manager invited them in-----omara says recently that the DOJ investigation is still underway.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/trayvon-martin-case-department-of-justice-to-investigate-2266580.html

--march 28th---The Trayvon Martin case is bringing more scrutiny on the Sanford Police Department. The Department of Justice will now investigate all cases handled by the police department, after receiving complaints from Sanford citizens.

It's been more than a month since 17-year-old Martin was killed and only a week since the Department of Justice, the U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI launched investigations into why George Zimmerman shot him. Now, the Department of Justice is launching another investigation into the entire Sanford Police Department.

"The citizens of Sanford will continue to have some idea that their concerns would be heard by an independent agency when they have issues with the Sanford Police Department," said Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte.

Bonaparte announced the new investigation Tuesday afternoon after receiving numerous complaints about the way officers handled other cases.

He said that so many people complained at Monday night's city commission meeting about Sanford officers, the city asked the Department of Justice to step in.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/George-Zimmerman-s-attorney-says-more-evidence-to-come/-/1637132/13486818/-/x1vridz/-/index.html

--may 18th--O'Mara said he would seek to obtain records from an ongoing U.S. Justice Department civil rights investigation into whether Zimmerman acted with racial malice.

"That information will either show my client did additional things wrong or, conversely, that they didn't find any evidence that my client did something affecting Trayvon Martin's civil rights in an inappropriate way," O'Mara said.

--although i don't know why omara would seek DOJ info, i thought it was the FBI looking into the civil rights angle and the DOJ looking into the SPD ?

--interesting that omara mentions "additional" things done wrong by george---in addition to what omara?

I know this was to Deb - but I just wanted to state that I think this goes back to what KZ and I were discussing on THM a while back. I think we conceded (and KZ will correct me if I am wrong, I hope) that the DOJ is most likely sitting back taking a "wait and see" attitude towards whether or not they will initiate their own action against GZ for violations of Trayvon's civil rights. We discussed how that may be why the State's case appears to be purposely ignoring any racial aspect of the case - this would have been a deliberate tactical manuever by the DOJ and State working together - and O'Mara is obviously aware of this and that is what he is referring to. IMO. KZ, if you are reading this, can you give your input?

I know this wasn't addressed to me but I thought the FBI would investigate if Martin civil rights were violated and the DOJ would be investigation how the police and DA handled the case.

Actually Snowbird, I think it is the exact opposite - but I cannot state that for positive. I know the U.S. Attorney is a member of the DOJ - and it would be a U.S. Attorney who initiated any action that were to be forthcoming. I have to take off, but I will delve into it when I get back.

It appears that either investigators with the DOJ or the FBI can investigate the internal affairs of a police department.

Color of law investigations comprise two categories--criminal wrongdoing and pattern-and-practice misconduct. Criminal wrongdoing focuses on individual misconduct, while pattern-and-practice misconduct leads to civil proceedings and examines systemic misconduct in law enforcement agencies. Police officers wontedly using traffic stops as a tool of intimidation to discourage minorities from entering town illustrates pattern-and-practice misconduct. To sustain this type of misconduct, the actions of officers in a department must prove pervasive. The Special Litigation Section of DOJ's Civil Rights Division investigates most pattern-and-practice violations.

***

DOJ or the FBI can initiate a color of law investigation based on credible media reports or a complaint from any person who does not have a history of providing false information. Any valid complaint triggers a color of law investigation; however, the extent of the investigation depends on the specific facts of the complaint. Two types of color of law investigations exist: a preliminary investigation and a substantial case investigation.

I would think this type of case would be a "pattern and practice" investigation.

See much more at: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_8_69/ai_65241456/

CherokeeNative wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

Referring to this map:


https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/the-trayvon-martin-case-update-4-geography-and-narrative-analysis/

There have been so many maps with various guesses of where GZ's car was parked and this one seems to make perfect sense in that aspect. But the spot marked "confrontation" is confusing to me. This is the point where Trayvon's body was, correct? I was under the assumption from the witnesses' statements that the initial "confrontation" or meeting of the two occurred further towards where Trayvon was staying - down 1 building or so - and that the actual ground altercation occurred at the "confrontation" mark. Are we in agreement with that, or am I missing something? Thanks All.

If this is accurate, from where the 911 call ends and to where Trayvons body was found to where Zimmermans car was parked, does not add up. Why would Zimmerman detour up that walkway when he could have just went straight to where his car supposedly was? If this map is accurate, it plainly shows that Zimmerman had to have walked or ran up that walkway for the confrontation with Trayvon.

It may have been possible that Zimmerman lost Trayvon for a moment but than noticed him again up that walkway and decided to once again take pursuit. There is no way that Zimmemran would have retreated by just a "jester" (as some put it), and forget about a "azzhole" getting away once again (Zimmermans words).

The FBI followed up to see if the SPDs investigation was complete.
Since they had missed important witnesses and appeared to lead or take incomplete statements from others- they found the investigation lacking. That's how it gets kicked to the DOJ for further in investigation - of the SPD.
But the FBIs witness testimony and evidence gathering can be used at GZs trial.

The DOJ moves slowly, might be staggered after the trial.
Or so I heard from a friend who's witnessed PD investigations.

ellejay wrote:--@ Deb.

--i don't recall the SPD's reaction to the department of justice investigation, only that the city manager invited them in-----omara says recently that the DOJ investigation is still underway.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/trayvon-martin-case-department-of-justice-to-investigate-2266580.html

--march 28th---The Trayvon Martin case is bringing more scrutiny on the Sanford Police Department. The Department of Justice will now investigate all cases handled by the police department, after receiving complaints from Sanford citizens.

It's been more than a month since 17-year-old Martin was killed and only a week since the Department of Justice, the U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI launched investigations into why George Zimmerman shot him. Now, the Department of Justice is launching another investigation into the entire Sanford Police Department.

"The citizens of Sanford will continue to have some idea that their concerns would be heard by an independent agency when they have issues with the Sanford Police Department," said Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte.

Bonaparte announced the new investigation Tuesday afternoon after receiving numerous complaints about the way officers handled other cases.

He said that so many people complained at Monday night's city commission meeting about Sanford officers, the city asked the Department of Justice to step in.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/George-Zimmerman-s-attorney-says-more-evidence-to-come/-/1637132/13486818/-/x1vridz/-/index.html

--may 18th--O'Mara said he would seek to obtain records from an ongoing U.S. Justice Department civil rights investigation into whether Zimmerman acted with racial malice.

"That information will either show my client did additional things wrong or, conversely, that they didn't find any evidence that my client did something affecting Trayvon Martin's civil rights in an inappropriate way," O'Mara said.

--although i don't know why omara would seek DOJ info, i thought it was the FBI looking into the civil rights angle and the DOJ looking into the SPD ?

--interesting that omara mentions "additional" things done wrong by george---in addition to what omara?

Twinkle wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:
The "he ran" sounds resigned, like the "real suspicious guy" is no longer in his sight, and he has acknowledged that he is not to pursue him. He answers all the dispatcher's questions and makes no further mention of TM. He seems resigned to waiting for the police at this point. This does not sound to me like someone who was hot on the trail of TM and closing in on him. Of course, we know that it was about a minute or so between when he ended the call with the dispatcher and when the 911 calls started coming in to report an altercation between GZ and TM.

But the fact is, they did meet up, behind the buildings, so how would Zimmerman have gotten there if not by getting there by himself?

Zimmerman's keys and flashlight were found very close to the cut-through sidewalk, which is consistent with his claim of having been attacked while on that sidewalk headed back to his car. I don't know how they got from that point to where TM's body was found, but will be very interested to see how this is addressed in his statements and the reenactment he did with police.

Gizmo711 wrote:
We seem to be putting logic asside when it comes to Zimmerman.

I agree, but probably not for the same reason! I see many people setting aside logic in search of explanations for how GZ could have sustained the injuries he had without TM laying a finger on him. It amazes me to see people trying to twist the facts to support what they want to believe.

Gizmo711 wrote:The FACTS that we know and have been privy to is that Zimmerman made several 911 calls to report a suspiscious guy (Trayvon), George left his car with a loaded gun. There was NOTHING suspiscious about Trayvon Martin (it was all in Zimmermans head) it was assumed by Zimmerman that Trayvon was suspiscious. We ALL hear Zimmerman out of breath, he acknowledges to the 911 operator that he is following Trayvon. He states on the 911 call "these a$$holes always get away". Trayvon ends up dead in a matter of 60 seconds.

Zimmerman is ALWAYS on the phone with 911, IF Zimmerman was running FROM Trayvon he would have been on the phone with them AGAIN, but he wasn't.

I would suggest if suddenly accosted and punched in the nose, GZ had no time to grab his phone and call 911.

Gizmo711 wrote: And the public is to believe that it was TRAYVON who was in pursuit of ZIMMERMAN? That's NOT logical to me. Trayvons body is found behind the buildings NOT by Zimmermans car, infact no where near where his car could have possibly been, but it was near where Trayvon was staying.

Actually TM was found a lot closer to where Zimmerman's car was likely parked near the cut through than to Brandy Green's home. And also it was not all that far from the cut-through sidewalk, which is where GZ says he was when the altercation began.

Oh, I certainly know where Zimmerman got his scratches from and the "broken nose" (if it was broken). Trayvon did it. The point I am trying to make is, some think it was OK for Zimmerman to be profiling Trayvon, pursuing Trayvon, stalking Trayvon, and shooting Trayvon. However, they want to believe that SUDDENLY, after all that Zimmerman went thru with the 911 call and following this young man thru the complex, that he suddenly decided to take a "JESTER" from the 911 operator to not follow Trayvon any longer and Trayvon ends up dead. But this doesn't make Zimmerman a suspect but it makes Trayvon a suspect? Really? Suddenly the hunted becomes the hunted? A teenager that is only armed with skittles and ice tea is suddenly an attacker? I would think if Trayvon had decided to turn the tables he would have had enough sense to pick up a rock or something on the way.

The interesting thing is that the tests didn't find Zimmerman's DNA under Trayvon's fingernails, and, Zimmerman's DNA wasn't found either on the cuffs of Trayvon's sweatshirt.

There was definitely a struggle that lasted for a few seconds before the shot was fired, I wonder if Zimmerman fell and hit his head, I also wonder if Trayvon used his cell phone to hit Zimmerman on the face. I don't know if they conducted a DNA analysis of Trayvon's cell phone.

There was blood on the bag of Skittles, I don't know either if they analyzed it to find out whose blood it was.

Let us not forget that they did find GZ's blood on TM's shirt.

Zimmerman's blood on Trayvon's shirt can be explained, if there is physical contact, blood, DNA can be transferred. Two witnesses saw Zimmerman on top of Trayvon (straddling him), with his hands on his back. What can not be explained is the lack of Zimmerman DNA under Trayvon's fingernails or on the cuffs of his sweatshirt, there have been allegation that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman punching him on the face, he was also apparently slamming his head against the sidewalk. The fact that Zimmerman's DNA is not present on those areas is very problematic to his defense.

Zimmerman claimed that Trayvon was banging his head in the pavement. Zimmerman claimed he was screaming for help. Zimmerman claimed that Trayvon jumped him from behind. Zimmerman claimed that Trayvon fought him for the gun. Zimmerman claimed that he managed to get his gun and shoot Trayvon to save his own life.

These are Zimmermans accounts. All this was supposed to take place in 60 seconds.

I don't think it's possible to be screaming with a steady scream while your head is being pounded into the ground. I don't think it's possible to reach for your gun while someone is straddling you. I also don't think it logical that someone would jump you from behind with out having some sort of a weapon at your disposal.

I believe someone mentions that Trayvon may have used his can of ice tea. I would certainly expect him to use it seeing as he had nothing else at his disposal, but the can of ice tea was found inside Trayvons jacket. So what did Trayvon do, put it away before being shot?

Yes there was an altercation, but I doubt very much that Trayvon initiated it. And if Trayvon did jump Zimmerman when he saw that he didn't shake him off, it would be very understandable and fall into self defense on Trayvons part...not on Zimmermans.


Again, the whole ordeal started with Zimmerman and ended with Zimmerman....

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Twinkle wrote:
The "he ran" sounds resigned, like the "real suspicious guy" is no longer in his sight, and he has acknowledged that he is not to pursue him. He answers all the dispatcher's questions and makes no further mention of TM. He seems resigned to waiting for the police at this point. This does not sound to me like someone who was hot on the trail of TM and closing in on him. Of course, we know that it was about a minute or so between when he ended the call with the dispatcher and when the 911 calls started coming in to report an altercation between GZ and TM.

But the fact is, they did meet up, behind the buildings, so how would Zimmerman have gotten there if not by getting there by himself?

Zimmerman's keys and flashlight were found very close to the cut-through sidewalk, which is consistent with his claim of having been attacked while on that sidewalk headed back to his car. I don't know how they got from that point to where TM's body was found, but will be very interested to see how this is addressed in his statements and the reenactment he did with police.

Gizmo711 wrote:
We seem to be putting logic asside when it comes to Zimmerman.

I agree, but probably not for the same reason! I see many people setting aside logic in search of explanations for how GZ could have sustained the injuries he had without TM laying a finger on him. It amazes me to see people trying to twist the facts to support what they want to believe.

Gizmo711 wrote:The FACTS that we know and have been privy to is that Zimmerman made several 911 calls to report a suspiscious guy (Trayvon), George left his car with a loaded gun. There was NOTHING suspiscious about Trayvon Martin (it was all in Zimmermans head) it was assumed by Zimmerman that Trayvon was suspiscious. We ALL hear Zimmerman out of breath, he acknowledges to the 911 operator that he is following Trayvon. He states on the 911 call "these a$$holes always get away". Trayvon ends up dead in a matter of 60 seconds.

Zimmerman is ALWAYS on the phone with 911, IF Zimmerman was running FROM Trayvon he would have been on the phone with them AGAIN, but he wasn't.

I would suggest if suddenly accosted and punched in the nose, GZ had no time to grab his phone and call 911.

Gizmo711 wrote: And the public is to believe that it was TRAYVON who was in pursuit of ZIMMERMAN? That's NOT logical to me. Trayvons body is found behind the buildings NOT by Zimmermans car, infact no where near where his car could have possibly been, but it was near where Trayvon was staying.

Actually TM was found a lot closer to where Zimmerman's car was likely parked near the cut through than to Brandy Green's home. And also it was not all that far from the cut-through sidewalk, which is where GZ says he was when the altercation began.

Oh, I certainly know where Zimmerman got his scratches from and the "broken nose" (if it was broken). Trayvon did it. The point I am trying to make is, some think it was OK for Zimmerman to be profiling Trayvon, pursuing Trayvon, stalking Trayvon, and shooting Trayvon. However, they want to believe that SUDDENLY, after all that Zimmerman went thru with the 911 call and following this young man thru the complex, that he suddenly decided to take a "JESTER" from the 911 operator to not follow Trayvon any longer and Trayvon ends up dead. But this doesn't make Zimmerman a suspect but it makes Trayvon a suspect? Really? Suddenly the hunted becomes the hunted? A teenager that is only armed with skittles and ice tea is suddenly an attacker? I would think if Trayvon had decided to turn the tables he would have had enough sense to pick up a rock or something on the way.

The interesting thing is that the tests didn't find Zimmerman's DNA under Trayvon's fingernails, and, Zimmerman's DNA wasn't found either on the cuffs of Trayvon's sweatshirt.

There was definitely a struggle that lasted for a few seconds before the shot was fired, I wonder if Zimmerman fell and hit his head, I also wonder if Trayvon used his cell phone to hit Zimmerman on the face. I don't know if they conducted a DNA analysis of Trayvon's cell phone.

There was blood on the bag of Skittles, I don't know either if they analyzed it to find out whose blood it was.

Let us not forget that they did find GZ's blood on TM's shirt.

Zimmerman's blood on Trayvon's shirt can be explained, if there is physical contact, blood, DNA can be transferred. Two witnesses saw Zimmerman on top of Trayvon (straddling him), with his hands on his back. What can not be explained is the lack of Zimmerman DNA under Trayvon's fingernails or on the cuffs of his sweatshirt, there have been allegation that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman punching him on the face, he was also apparently slamming his head against the sidewalk. The fact that Zimmerman's DNA is not present on those areas is very problematic to his defense.

For sure...I wouldn't even take into account that there was some sort of blood transfer. There was a scuffle between both individuals. But I cannot see anyway what so ever that it was Trayvon that initiated the fight. I see Zimmerman doing it all and then trying to save his a$$ and lying up a storm.

IF Trayvon threw the first punch, the altercation was still initiated by Zimmemran. A person does not have to be of violent nature when provoked into a fight. Trayvon was more than provoked, he was followed, stalked and approached.

Had Zimmerman been jumped on from behind when did he have the chance to say to Trayvon "what are you doing around here"? Was that after Trayvon jumped him? or before Zimmerman shot him? Because I cannot see anyone being jumped from behind and being beat into the grond and saying to the person "what are you doing around here"?

I agree, it's only the middle part that is muddled . From the lite we do know for sure about GZs testimony.... Trayvon circling the car?!? Head beaten in to the sidewalk?!?! Well it's all pretty impossible to just take his word for it after that.
And I think the proscecution has a lot more. MOM is working to hide the discrepancies and conflicting testimony, but I don't know why anyone would find GZ credible based on what's come out. It's too inconsistant, except that it's all self serving for GZ.

Gizmo711 wrote:Zimmerman claimed that Trayvon was banging his head in the pavement. Zimmerman claimed he was screaming for help. Zimmerman claimed that Trayvon jumped him from behind. Zimmerman claimed that Trayvon fought him for the gun. Zimmerman claimed that he managed to get his gun and shoot Trayvon to save his own life.

These are Zimmermans accounts. All this was supposed to take place in 60 seconds.

I don't think it's possible to be screaming with a steady scream while your head is being pounded into the ground. I don't think it's possible to reach for your gun while someone is straddling you. I also don't think it logical that someone would jump you from behind with out having some sort of a weapon at your disposal.

I believe someone mentions that Trayvon may have used his can of ice tea. I would certainly expect him to use it seeing as he had nothing else at his disposal, but the can of ice tea was found inside Trayvons jacket. So what did Trayvon do, put it away before being shot?

Yes there was an altercation, but I doubt very much that Trayvon initiated it. And if Trayvon did jump Zimmerman when he saw that he didn't shake him off, it would be very understandable and fall into self defense on Trayvons part...not on Zimmermans.


Again, the whole ordeal started with Zimmerman and ended with Zimmerman....

Gizmo711 wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

Twinkle wrote:

Referring to this map:


https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/the-trayvon-martin-case-update-4-geography-and-narrative-analysis/

There have been so many maps with various guesses of where GZ's car was parked and this one seems to make perfect sense in that aspect. But the spot marked "confrontation" is confusing to me. This is the point where Trayvon's body was, correct? I was under the assumption from the witnesses' statements that the initial "confrontation" or meeting of the two occurred further towards where Trayvon was staying - down 1 building or so - and that the actual ground altercation occurred at the "confrontation" mark. Are we in agreement with that, or am I missing something? Thanks All.

If this is accurate, from where the 911 call ends and to where Trayvons body was found to where Zimmermans car was parked, does not add up. Why would Zimmerman detour up that walkway when he could have just went straight to where his car supposedly was? If this map is accurate, it plainly shows that Zimmerman had to have walked or ran up that walkway for the confrontation with Trayvon.

It may have been possible that Zimmerman lost Trayvon for a moment but than noticed him again up that walkway and decided to once again take pursuit. There is no way that Zimmemran would have retreated by just a "jester" (as some put it), and forget about a "azzhole" getting away once again (Zimmermans words).

I don't know why people think Zimmerman went all the way to the other street, was that something that crazy Frank or one of the family members said?

Maybe Z had his keys in his hand, then dropped them to pull his gun if he started pursuing Trayvon down that sidewalk from the 'T'.

Gizmo711 wrote:Zimmerman claimed that Trayvon was banging his head in the pavement. Zimmerman claimed he was screaming for help. Zimmerman claimed that Trayvon jumped him from behind. Zimmerman claimed that Trayvon fought him for the gun. Zimmerman claimed that he managed to get his gun and shoot Trayvon to save his own life.

These are Zimmermans accounts. All this was supposed to take place in 60 seconds.

I don't think it's possible to be screaming with a steady scream while your head is being pounded into the ground. I don't think it's possible to reach for your gun while someone is straddling you. I also don't think it logical that someone would jump you from behind with out having some sort of a weapon at your disposal.

I believe someone mentions that Trayvon may have used his can of ice tea. I would certainly expect him to use it seeing as he had nothing else at his disposal, but the can of ice tea was found inside Trayvons jacket. So what did Trayvon do, put it away before being shot?

Yes there was an altercation, but I doubt very much that Trayvon initiated it. And if Trayvon did jump Zimmerman when he saw that he didn't shake him off, it would be very understandable and fall into self defense on Trayvons part...not on Zimmermans.


Again, the whole ordeal started with Zimmerman and ended with Zimmerman....

--i must have missed something----why was this all to have taken place in 60 seconds?

I have always said that George statements was the most important thing to this case. He statements are not going to end up with the evidence. That is why his attorney will try to get his statements thrown out of the trail. I believe that why the detective of this case wanted a manslaughter charge. Things just didn't add up to the evidence early on.
At the bond hearing when he was on the stand, he was asked about being questioned by police. It was asked to him when they're his statement did not meet the evidence, he would state I don't remember.
I hope that all made since.

Twinkle wrote:
Referring to this map:


https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/the-trayvon-martin-case-update-4-geography-and-narrative-analysis/

Can anyone tell me if there is a "pass-through" hallway on the ground level of each of these buildings? I lived in a similar complex and for each unit (about 16 apts in ea 2-story unit) there was an exterior hallway that cut through the center of the building -- that way if you parked on the back side of the building and your apt was on the opposing side, you didn't have to walk *all* the way around the building, you could simply cut straight through to the other side (?)

Agreed snowbird. GZ's statement are key. I find it interesting that both sides want them redacted as a defendant's confession doesn't have to be made public. That being said, G's multiple statements are understood to be contradictory to the other evidence in the case. I hope Judge Lester thumbs his nose at these requests and releases to the media. Trayvon's autopsy...RIP, I don't need to see it. The witnesses names, ditto. The recreation of the crime scene evidence, George's statements to the police, and George's communication post shooting IMO should be released. Without this information, it is really incomplete evidence.

Stolat wrote:

Twinkle wrote:
Referring to this map:


https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/the-trayvon-martin-case-update-4-geography-and-narrative-analysis/

Can anyone tell me if there is a "pass-through" hallway on the ground level of each of these buildings? I lived in a similar complex and for each unit (about 16 apts in ea 2-story unit) there was an exterior hallway that cut through the center of the building -- that way if you parked on the back side of the building and your apt was on the opposing side, you didn't have to walk *all* the way around the building, you could simply cut straight through to the other side (?)

I dont believe so. There are only five units per building.

I thought that I already posted but will post again. They do not do community hallways down here because landlords do not want to foot the bills for cooling the hallways. I was thinking of buying some rental property at one time and thought it better for hallways for security but was told that no one builds that way here.

OK. Gizmo, I will bite. WTH is a "JESTER" from dispatch and why do you keep yelling it?

Curious, see avie.

Stolat wrote:

Can anyone tell me if there is a "pass-through" hallway on the ground level of each of these buildings? I lived in a similar complex and for each unit (about 16 apts in ea 2-story unit) there was an exterior hallway that cut through the center of the building -- that way if you parked on the back side of the building and your apt was on the opposing side, you didn't have to walk *all* the way around the building, you could simply cut straight through to the other side (?)

--in this case there aren't condo units on "opposing sides".

--streetside is the garage/front entry door---at the back of each unit is the patio door entrance...the units are 2 story as well.

ellejay wrote:http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-24/news/os-george-zimmerman-secret-witnesses-20120524_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-witness-safety-trial
Legal fight likely looms over identifying witnesses in Zimmerman case

Media companies are expected to intervene, seeking to force the state to release the names, in what boils down to a struggle between the public's right to know and the defendant's right to a fair trial.
~~~~~~~

The prosecution filed a motion seeking to seal that and other information Wednesday. But Special Prosecutor Angela Corey's office redacted the information from the evidence released last week anyway, citing state statute.

John D. Kaney Jr., a Daytona Beach First Amendment lawyer and general counsel of the nonprofit First Amendment Foundation, said Corey likely overstepped by redacting the witness information without the judge's direction.

"I don't know of any situation where a prosecutor made the unilateral decision to keep any part of the records secret, closed, after the exemption for investigation has expired, which this one has," Kaney said. "She has to do that in a motion to the court. She can't just do that on her own call."
~~~~~~

As Casey Anthony prepared for trial in the death of her daughter, her defense lawyers asked Judge Belvin Perry Jr. to seal the names of several witnesses who were expected to testify before sentencing, if she were convicted.

Perry ruled the names should remain public, noting that sealing the information would only delay the inevitable. If called to the stand, he said, a witness "will testify in an open courtroom and be publicly identified with this case."

I agree with Mr. Kaney. In fact, early on in the first thread, I quoted the sunshine law and questioned why the prosecutor or O'Mara had not filed their motions allowing them to redact information since the sunshine law states that once the evidence has been provided to the defense, it must be released to the public. Corey defied the statute but also the AG's Opinion by unilaterally redacting the information without having sought the Court's permission in advance. I will admit that Corey has huevos.

See, http://www.myflsunshine.com/sun.nsf/manual/1BB05D142D8E4724852566F3006C7A1A

DebFrmHell wrote:OK. Gizmo, I will bite. WTH is a "JESTER" from dispatch and why do you keep yelling it?

Curious, see avie.

Deb, I am not Gizzmo and since she appears to be off line - I will risk responding for her. Up thread, someone referred to the instruction of the Dispatcher, "we don't need you to do that" as nothing more than a "jester" so that is how Gizzmo is referring to it. Gizzmo, you can cut me off at the knees if I misstated this.

Respectfully snipped:
Referring to this map:


https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/the-trayvon-martin-case-update-4-geography-and-narrative-analysis/

I would be interested in knowing why this map shows "911 Call ends" over in the far right corner. At no time have I heard that anyone thinks that GZ was in that area of the development. Has anyone heard of a scenario placing GZ over on that side? If so, I would like to hear it out of curiosity. Thanks!!

Gizmo711 wrote:Also, if Zimmerman didn't take the words of the 911 operator as a command then why would he have said "OK". If Zimmerman thought this to be just a jester, and he had already gotten out of his car with a loaded gun, why would he than retreat so easily? Zimmerman was already fired up and so sure of himself that he was about to cathch a thiref (so to speak) he would not have retreated for just a "jester" from the 911 operator. Zimmerman knew this was a command nicely put.

If Zimmerman would have said to the 911 operator "NO" I am going after him, I bet then the 911 operator would have gotten a little more agressive with how he phrased it at first. 911 operators are trained to tell the callers how to act in a situation (more training than Zimmerman could have had with how to handle a gun). The 911 operator did NOT give Zimmerman the go ahead to go after Trayvon, by just jestering.

All this is, is word picking. We all know that this was a comman. Of course the defense attorney's are trained and skilled in twisting everything that anyone says to meet their defense. But the fact is, is that is was a command.

--i'm also not gizmo---but i took the "jestering" from this 1st post (and onwards) to be a "gesture" (suggestion?) from dispatch, rather than a command.