George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

Gizmo711 wrote:I'm happy to see that TM's family is getting to see justice play out. So many other murders were swept under the carpet, as this one would have been had it not been for the parents outcry for justice and the backup they received from Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson.

I applaud all of them for seeking justice against a senseless murder such as this one. When we can't send our TEENAGE children to the store this society is regressing and it becomes an injustice for ALL...not just TM.

One should NOT look suspiscious just for walking down the street.. MANY would have found ZIMMERMAN suspect, I wonder how he would have felt if the tables were turned. I wonder how HIS family would have felt if the only word of the shooter was taken.

So some might be looking for justification of this senseless murder and feeling that ZIMMERMAN was in the right to be carrying a loaded weapon while going to Target and ending up shooting an unarmed teenager, but I do not and will not ever see the justification that is being stated by some. I just wonder if the same justification would be sought if it were their loved one that was gunned down like this?????? My guess is it wouldn't be the same point of view.

CBM.

1. Trayvon went to the store that night on his own volition, he was not sent by an adult.

2. Trayvon was not walking down the street when spotted and observed by Zimmerman. According to the NEN call, Trayvon was approaching him and then Trayvon ran away.

3. Trayvon was shot, the circumstances have yet to be argued whether or not it was murder, and no discovery has been made public which offers indisputable fact that it was murder.

4. Zimmerman was legally carrying his weapon, and it is not illegal nor uncommon to carry it loaded.

5. Being of the opinion that there is NO evidence to disprove a Self Defense claim is not equivalent to supporting 'senseless murder' or even the unfortunate death of Trayvon Martin, and it is simply twisted logic and lack of fairmindedness to insinuate such.

If State's theory supporters would like to continue singing lalalalala with their hands over their ears in the face of facts or lack there of, fine by me, however they should be able to continue to do so without egregious factual misrepresentations and manipulating arguments to make it appear as if close observers of this case who just want the system to be left alone to do its job are not seeking justifiable murder.

Self Defense is legally, not emotionally, justifiable homicide NOT justifiable murder.

The one thing that I appreciate about this forum that you do not see on many of the others is the opportunity to express one's point of view. It can be either for or against the gentlemen in question and as long as it is a civil discussion, it is allowable.

This is not a board filled with hypocrites or rampant speculation and I am grateful for the venue.

One thing I do want to state is that I am sorry that young man lost his life. And I do agree it never should have happened. I just don't agree with the circumstances.

Because of things that came forth during the trial of the man that murdered my cousin, I feel sorry for his parents, too. They really have no idea what is in store for them. What they might imagine is not nearly the scope of what will occur.

For my relatives, the heartbreaker was the autopsy report. There is a lot of finality that comes from someone reporting on the death of a loved one.

It is not wrong:
-to carry a gun when licensed to do so;
-to walk down a street even behind another person;
-to walk through a neighborhood not your own;

UNLESS you have intent to break the law with your actions.
THEN it is WRONG and against the law.

I do NOT know what the intentions of GZ were that night.
He had more ability to protect himself or to be aggressive to another than TM did. Until I hear more of his intentions I will continue to question this killing and simply call it a murder.

We know of TM' intentions that night.
They were to go to the store and obtain two items.
Return to the home and watch TV.
IMO, TM was NOT the aggressor.
He was not instilling fear into anyone else that night.
He was minding his own business when he was accosted, shot, and murdered. IF anyone had the SYG right that night, it would have been the person in front of GZ.

What was TM's intention when he went back to where he was staying (deedee said TM told her he was back at his dad's place) and was therefore out of the area of GZ, but "then" went back to where GZ was?

Freckles wrote:It is not wrong:
-to carry a gun when licensed to do so;
-to walk down a street even behind another person;
-to walk through a neighborhood not your own;

UNLESS you have intent to break the law with your actions.
THEN it is WRONG and against the law.

I do NOT know what the intentions of GZ were that night.
He had more ability to protect himself or to be aggressive to another than TM did. Until I hear more of his intentions I will continue to question this killing and simply call it a murder.

We know of TM' intentions that night.
They were to go to the store and obtain two items.
Return to the home and watch TV.
IMO, TM was NOT the aggressor.
He was not instilling fear into anyone else that night.
He was minding his own business when he was accosted, shot, and murdered. IF anyone had the SYG right that night, it would have been the person in front of GZ.

The issue with the theory that Trayvon could invoke SYG is that the evidence right now points to Trayvon engaging, subduing, and injuring Zimmerman, having the opportunity to retreat (a witness even tells them he's calling police) and he appears to not have retreated.

Trayvon clearly was on top of Zimmerman. Trayvon was shot at close range and his body recovered by LE face down. He did not appear to be running away from Zimmerman nor was underneath him either.

I just don't see the State going there.

They each had an opportunity to retreat or change their ways PRIOR to TM being shot. When TM asked GZ why he was following him GZ could have/should have responded.From all reports, he did not respond.

Did TM have the right to ask? Yes.
Did TM have the right to be concerned someone was following him, especially to a location where there was a minor child and no homeowner/adult present? Yes.

TM had to step up to the plate to ensure the safety of the child AND that of himself. Had he gone directly to the home and GZ had seen where he had gone, GZ might have been planning a "home invasion" for all TM knew. And TM did not have a gun handy.

I do not fault TM for going to the store.
For buying items at the store.
For returning to the complex.
For asking GZ why he is being followed.
(And GZ admitted he WAS following TM. Likely he was afraid of TM? Hardly! GZ stated he knew TM was a teenager. GZ knew he had his gun with him. GZ had already contacted PD. All he had to do was to sit and wait a minute or two BUT GZ did not want the PD to investigate--- GZ wanted to be the big man who apprehended a "suspect". GZ was far from afraid and far from being compliant with PD requests to stay in his vehicle.)

The PD were there within minutes of the shooting as they were responding to GZ' initial phone call. Funny how they did not require an address, isn't it?

BTW, what is with this housing complex that does NOT post addresses on buildings? Surely GZ could have driven to the first complex and seen the address posted on the curb or on the home? Most insurance companies require addresses to be prominently placed and I am sure management at this housing complex was compliant.

When TM asked GZ why he was following him GZ could have/should have responded.From all reports, he did not respond.

So inquiring minds want to know... From all what reports?

Freckles wrote:They each had an opportunity to retreat or change their ways PRIOR to TM being shot. When TM asked GZ why he was following him GZ could have/should have responded.From all reports, he did not respond.

Did TM have the right to ask? Yes.
Did TM have the right to be concerned someone was following him, especially to a location where there was a minor child and no homeowner/adult present? Yes.

TM had to step up to the plate to ensure the safety of the child AND that of himself. Had he gone directly to the home and GZ had seen where he had gone, GZ might have been planning a "home invasion" for all TM knew. And TM did not have a gun handy.

I do not fault TM for going to the store.
For buying items at the store.
For returning to the complex.
For asking GZ why he is being followed.
(And GZ admitted he WAS following TM. Likely he was afraid of TM? Hardly! GZ stated he knew TM was a teenager. GZ knew he had his gun with him. GZ had already contacted PD. All he had to do was to sit and wait a minute or two BUT GZ did not want the PD to investigate--- GZ wanted to be the big man who apprehended a "suspect". GZ was far from afraid and far from being compliant with PD requests to stay in his vehicle.)

The PD were there within minutes of the shooting as they were responding to GZ' initial phone call. Funny how they did not require an address, isn't it?

BTW, what is with this housing complex that does NOT post addresses on buildings? Surely GZ could have driven to the first complex and seen the address posted on the curb or on the home? Most insurance companies require addresses to be prominently placed and I am sure management at this housing complex was compliant.

At the moments most contemporaneous to the weapon being used, the person on the bottom, which appears to be Zimmerman right now, could not get up and stop the assault. He could not retreat, so duty is irrelevant.

However three people assert Travyon was safely at home, and yet despite a considerable lead, he ends up back in front of Zimmerman again? That is not fear- it is something else
anger, annoyance, petulance whatever. It was not fear. Getting inside, locking the door, telling someone and calling 911 is fear.

Trayvon was not carrying a weapon, but could have used one- Zimmerman's, (after he realized Zimmerman had one) if Zimmerman had not gotten to it first. In fact Zimmerman claims that Trayvon saw his weapon and appeared to be reaching for it. In that situation, between strangers, how is one to know what the other is capable of doing? Neither knew each other's state of mind.
Zimmerman was not walking around with his gun out seeing as he was on his cell, had keys, flashlight, etc. and he was on the way back to his vehicle. No witness reported seeing a gun waving around during the fight. I think Zimmerman's statement about him noticing Trayvon noticing the weapon is quite credible and makes sense of how this fight turned fatal. Zimmerman knew the PD were on the way and he had had contact with a witness who was also calling LE- hanging out taking a few more punches was not going to be that hard- something had to have happened to have changed the scenario that drastically.

Zimmerman was waiting for the PD. He called them and asked them to come. He did not know how long or quickly they would be arriving. This fact alone makes is really hard to see that Zimmerman had any intentions of committing a crime- he did not know who was watching and LE could have shown up any second.

I have never been struck by any significant dissimilarity regarding Zimmerman's statements and re-enactment regarding where he was, why he thought he was there, and where Trayvon was and was going in regard to the complex.

THe NEN operator at around the 2:14 mark I believe, initially encourages Zimmerman to keep an eye on Trayvon and wants to know where Trayvon is going, yet then when he realizes that Zimmerman is following Trayvon on foot, tells him "WE DO NOT NEED YOU TO DO THAT". Crump got that quote quite wrong.

Implying criminal behavior because an individual failed to break the chain of events is not legal theory- it is Serino's opinion.

Tamta wrote:

Freckles wrote:They each had an opportunity to retreat or change their ways PRIOR to TM being shot. When TM asked GZ why he was following him GZ could have/should have responded.From all reports, he did not respond.

Did TM have the right to ask? Yes.
Did TM have the right to be concerned someone was following him, especially to a location where there was a minor child and no homeowner/adult present? Yes.

TM had to step up to the plate to ensure the safety of the child AND that of himself. Had he gone directly to the home and GZ had seen where he had gone, GZ might have been planning a "home invasion" for all TM knew. And TM did not have a gun handy.

I do not fault TM for going to the store.
For buying items at the store.
For returning to the complex.
For asking GZ why he is being followed.
(And GZ admitted he WAS following TM. Likely he was afraid of TM? Hardly! GZ stated he knew TM was a teenager. GZ knew he had his gun with him. GZ had already contacted PD. All he had to do was to sit and wait a minute or two BUT GZ did not want the PD to investigate--- GZ wanted to be the big man who apprehended a "suspect". GZ was far from afraid and far from being compliant with PD requests to stay in his vehicle.)

The PD were there within minutes of the shooting as they were responding to GZ' initial phone call. Funny how they did not require an address, isn't it?

BTW, what is with this housing complex that does NOT post addresses on buildings? Surely GZ could have driven to the first complex and seen the address posted on the curb or on the home? Most insurance companies require addresses to be prominently placed and I am sure management at this housing complex was compliant.

At the moments most contemporaneous to the weapon being used, the person on the bottom, which appears to be Zimmerman right now, could not get up and stop the assault. He could not retreat, so duty is irrelevant.

However three people assert Travyon was safely at home, and yet despite a considerable lead, he ends up back in front of Zimmerman again? That is not fear- it is something else
anger, annoyance, petulance whatever. It was not fear. Getting inside, locking the door, telling someone and calling 911 is fear.

Trayvon was not carrying a weapon, but could have used one- Zimmerman's, (after he realized Zimmerman had one) if Zimmerman had not gotten to it first. In fact Zimmerman claims that Trayvon saw his weapon and appeared to be reaching for it. In that situation, between strangers, how is one to know what the other is capable of doing? Neither knew each other's state of mind.
Zimmerman was not walking around with his gun out seeing as he was on his cell, had keys, flashlight, etc. and he was on the way back to his vehicle. No witness reported seeing a gun waving around during the fight. I think Zimmerman's statement about him noticing Trayvon noticing the weapon is quite credible and makes sense of how this fight turned fatal. Zimmerman knew the PD were on the way and he had had contact with a witness who was also calling LE- hanging out taking a few more punches was not going to be that hard- something had to have happened to have changed the scenario that drastically.

Zimmerman was waiting for the PD. He called them and asked them to come. He did not know how long or quickly they would be arriving. This fact alone makes is really hard to see that Zimmerman had any intentions of committing a crime- he did not know who was watching and LE could have shown up any second.

I have never been struck by any significant dissimilarity regarding Zimmerman's statements and re-enactment regarding where he was, why he thought he was there, and where Trayvon was and was going in regard to the complex.

THe NEN operator at around the 2:14 mark I believe, initially encourages Zimmerman to keep an eye on Trayvon and wants to know where Trayvon is going, yet then when he realizes that Zimmerman is following Trayvon on foot, tells him "WE DO NOT NEED YOU TO DO THAT". Crump got that quote quite wrong.

Implying criminal behavior because an individual failed to break the chain of events is not legal theory- it is Serino's opinion.

That is not an accurate representation of what transpired during the 911 call, the police dispatcher did not encourage Zimmerman "to keep an eye on Trayvon"

Zimmerman 911 call (excerpt)


He’s running. [2:08]

911 dispatcher:

He’s running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman:

Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]

911 dispatcher:

OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?

Zimmerman:

The back entrance.

911 dispatcher:

Are you following him? [2:24]

Zimmerman:

Yeah. [2:25]

911 dispatcher:

OK.

We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

Zimmerman:

OK. [2:28]

911 dispatcher:

Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34]

Zimmerman:

George. He ran.

911 dispatcher:

Alright, George, what’s your last name?

Zimmerman:

Zimmerman.

911 dispatcher:

What’s the phone number you’re calling from?

So in things that are strange that happen to me, I got a notice today from Facebook stating that they were sorry I was having trouble logging into my account.

I don't use my FB account except maybe 2-3 per year so methinks that someone is trying to hack into it.

Another good reason for not using FB.

Tamta wrote:
Clipped-
My response in blue.

" However three people assert Travyon was safely at home, and yet despite a considerable lead, he ends up back in front of Zimmerman again? That is not fear- it is something else
anger, annoyance, petulance whatever. It was not fear. Getting inside, locking the door, telling someone and calling 911 is fear.
-- I do not know who reported TM was at the home, safely inside. This implies he went back outside and I do not believe I have read this. Did the young man who was a resident of the home TM was staying report this? Did any member of TM' family report TM HAD actually entered the premises?

-- I do not know if TM at this point was fearful or being cautionary. GZ is one person who stated he was afraid of TM after TM reportedly circled his car.

Trayvon was not carrying a weapon, but could have used one- Zimmerman's, (after he realized Zimmerman had one) if Zimmerman had not gotten to it first.

-- This is speculation regarding what TM may have been able to do. The fact is: TM did NOT have a weapon on him. It is GZ word stating TM had seen the gun and was going for it. I find this speculation on the part of GZ at best.

In fact Zimmerman claims that Trayvon saw his weapon and appeared to be reaching for it. In that situation, between strangers, how is one to know what the other is capable of doing? Neither knew each other's state of mind.

-- It would be most logical for GZ to state TM was reaching for his gun. After all, dead men do not talk! GZ NEEDED an alibi to explain why he shot a teenager, why he followed said teen he shot, why he disobeyed instructions to NOT follow. And to distract from WHY he even got out of the car when he supposedly was afraid of said teen. I do not believe GZ. Period. Everything he says is to blame the victim. He has lied to the courts and that information was captured in jail house audio.

Tell me why I should believe anything he said when it appears to be self serving to him?



Zimmerman was not walking around with his gun out seeing as he was on his cell, had keys, flashlight, etc. and he was on the way back to his vehicle.

-- I do not know what GZ may have held in his hands. From evidence collected from the walkway, there was a flashlight. Where were car keys recovered? His cell phone? I do not know where he had the gun BUT presume it was in his waistband. Has anyone stated GZ was "waving" a gun about? If so, please provide a link as that is new speculation for me.

No witness reported seeing a gun waving around during the fight. I think Zimmerman's statement about him noticing Trayvon noticing the weapon is quite credible and makes sense of how this fight turned fatal.

-- Conceal and carry is just that. The gun is to not to be in the open but carried concealed by clothing. Why would TM be able to see the gun or even know of its existence?
When my son carries he always has his gun under his clothing, usually under his coat/jacket. It is not easy for the clothing to "fall away" exposing the gun. That would be a violation of law as "concealed" would not be carried out. Further, as it was winter and rainy, would it be incorrect to believe GZ had his jacket zipped up? Do we know if the jacket was zipped when the LE arrived? One would think he would protect his gun from the rain.

Zimmerman knew the PD were on the way and he had had contact with a witness who was also calling LE- hanging out taking a few more punches was not going to be that hard- something had to have happened to have changed the scenario that drastically.

Zimmerman was waiting for the PD.

-- No, GZ was NOT waiting for the LE. He took it upon himself to "investigate" where TM had gone; he took it upon himself to follow TM; he took it upon himself to disregard the advice of the dispatcher. (See, LE are wise enough to know when trouble MIGHT brew or things go out of control which, IMO, is why he was told to not follow. He also was not instructed to get out of his car but did that upon his own motivation and deesire.
"

Freckles wrote:Tamta wrote:
Clipped-
My response in blue.

" However three people assert Travyon was safely at home, and yet despite a considerable lead, he ends up back in front of Zimmerman again? That is not fear- it is something else
anger, annoyance, petulance whatever. It was not fear. Getting inside, locking the door, telling someone and calling 911 is fear.
-- I do not know who reported TM was at the home, safely inside. This implies he went back outside and I do not believe I have read this. Did the young man who was a resident of the home TM was staying report this? Did any member of TM' family report TM HAD actually entered the premises?

-- I do not know if TM at this point was fearful or being cautionary. GZ is one person who stated he was afraid of TM after TM reportedly circled his car.

Trayvon was not carrying a weapon, but could have used one- Zimmerman's, (after he realized Zimmerman had one) if Zimmerman had not gotten to it first.

-- This is speculation regarding what TM may have been able to do. The fact is: TM did NOT have a weapon on him. It is GZ word stating TM had seen the gun and was going for it. I find this speculation on the part of GZ at best.

In fact Zimmerman claims that Trayvon saw his weapon and appeared to be reaching for it. In that situation, between strangers, how is one to know what the other is capable of doing? Neither knew each other's state of mind.

-- It would be most logical for GZ to state TM was reaching for his gun. After all, dead men do not talk! GZ NEEDED an alibi to explain why he shot a teenager, why he followed said teen he shot, why he disobeyed instructions to NOT follow. And to distract from WHY he even got out of the car when he supposedly was afraid of said teen. I do not believe GZ. Period. Everything he says is to blame the victim. He has lied to the courts and that information was captured in jail house audio.

Tell me why I should believe anything he said when it appears to be self serving to him?



Zimmerman was not walking around with his gun out seeing as he was on his cell, had keys, flashlight, etc. and he was on the way back to his vehicle.

-- I do not know what GZ may have held in his hands. From evidence collected from the walkway, there was a flashlight. Where were car keys recovered? His cell phone? I do not know where he had the gun BUT presume it was in his waistband. Has anyone stated GZ was "waving" a gun about? If so, please provide a link as that is new speculation for me.

No witness reported seeing a gun waving around during the fight. I think Zimmerman's statement about him noticing Trayvon noticing the weapon is quite credible and makes sense of how this fight turned fatal.

-- Conceal and carry is just that. The gun is to not to be in the open but carried concealed by clothing. Why would TM be able to see the gun or even know of its existence?
When my son carries he always has his gun under his clothing, usually under his coat/jacket. It is not easy for the clothing to "fall away" exposing the gun. That would be a violation of law as "concealed" would not be carried out. Further, as it was winter and rainy, would it be incorrect to believe GZ had his jacket zipped up? Do we know if the jacket was zipped when the LE arrived? One would think he would protect his gun from the rain.

Zimmerman knew the PD were on the way and he had had contact with a witness who was also calling LE- hanging out taking a few more punches was not going to be that hard- something had to have happened to have changed the scenario that drastically.

Zimmerman was waiting for the PD.

-- No, GZ was NOT waiting for the LE. He took it upon himself to "investigate" where TM had gone; he took it upon himself to follow TM; he took it upon himself to disregard the advice of the dispatcher. (See, LE are wise enough to know when trouble MIGHT brew or things go out of control which, IMO, is why he was told to not follow. He also was not instructed to get out of his car but did that upon his own motivation and deesire.
"

Tell me why I should believe anything he said when it appears to be self serving to him?

Self-Serving or the truth? If you were accused of doing something you did not do, wouldn't all of your protestations/explanations come across as self-serving?

You already don't believe anything he says so everything he does say does comes across as self-serving.

But you still chose to ignore the evidence that points towards his innocence? And it is not his word that the evidence is based on. He has witnesses, injuries and DNA that support his story.

This is some hamster wheel we are all on.

DebFrmHell wrote:

Tell me why I should believe anything he said when it appears to be self serving to him?

Self-Serving or the truth? If you were accused of doing something you did not do, wouldn't all of your protestations/explanations come across as self-serving?

You already don't believe anything he says so everything he does say does comes across as self-serving.

But you still chose to ignore the evidence that points towards his innocence? And it is not his word that the evidence is based on. He has witnesses, injuries and DNA that support his story.

This is some hamster wheel we are all on.

The evidence doesn't support Zimmerman's versions of the events, furthermore, the forensic evidence contradicts numerous statements that Zimmerman made during police interviews and during the video reenactment of the shooting.

Alessandra, I owe you an apology. I have been reading thru more of the 284pg DocDump and Officer Wagner took pictures of both Zimmerman and Martin in an effort to find residents who could ID either Martin or Zimmerman.

Only one identified Zimmerman as the NW guy. Martin remained unrecognized.

I am shocked that he would do that. Never in my wildest would I think an officer would use a picture of a dead person freely around residents.

I am sorry.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:

Self-Serving or the truth? If you were accused of doing something you did not do, wouldn't all of your protestations/explanations come across as self-serving?

You already don't believe anything he says so everything he does say does comes across as self-serving.

But you still chose to ignore the evidence that points towards his innocence? And it is not his word that the evidence is based on. He has witnesses, injuries and DNA that support his story.

This is some hamster wheel we are all on.

The evidence doesn't support Zimmerman's versions of the events, furthermore, the forensic evidence contradicts numerous statements that Zimmerman made during police interviews and during the video reenactment of the shooting.

Can you explain more fully? What are you reading RE: forensics?

DebFrmHell wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

The evidence doesn't support Zimmerman's versions of the events, furthermore, the forensic evidence contradicts numerous statements that Zimmerman made during police interviews and during the video reenactment of the shooting.

Can you explain more fully? What are you reading RE: forensics?

I will explain in more detail when I have more time.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Tamta wrote:

At the moments most contemporaneous to the weapon being used, the person on the bottom, which appears to be Zimmerman right now, could not get up and stop the assault. He could not retreat, so duty is irrelevant.

However three people assert Travyon was safely at home, and yet despite a considerable lead, he ends up back in front of Zimmerman again? That is not fear- it is something else
anger, annoyance, petulance whatever. It was not fear. Getting inside, locking the door, telling someone and calling 911 is fear.

Trayvon was not carrying a weapon, but could have used one- Zimmerman's, (after he realized Zimmerman had one) if Zimmerman had not gotten to it first. In fact Zimmerman claims that Trayvon saw his weapon and appeared to be reaching for it. In that situation, between strangers, how is one to know what the other is capable of doing? Neither knew each other's state of mind.
Zimmerman was not walking around with his gun out seeing as he was on his cell, had keys, flashlight, etc. and he was on the way back to his vehicle. No witness reported seeing a gun waving around during the fight. I think Zimmerman's statement about him noticing Trayvon noticing the weapon is quite credible and makes sense of how this fight turned fatal. Zimmerman knew the PD were on the way and he had had contact with a witness who was also calling LE- hanging out taking a few more punches was not going to be that hard- something had to have happened to have changed the scenario that drastically.

Zimmerman was waiting for the PD. He called them and asked them to come. He did not know how long or quickly they would be arriving. This fact alone makes is really hard to see that Zimmerman had any intentions of committing a crime- he did not know who was watching and LE could have shown up any second.

I have never been struck by any significant dissimilarity regarding Zimmerman's statements and re-enactment regarding where he was, why he thought he was there, and where Trayvon was and was going in regard to the complex.

THe NEN operator at around the 2:14 mark I believe, initially encourages Zimmerman to keep an eye on Trayvon and wants to know where Trayvon is going, yet then when he realizes that Zimmerman is following Trayvon on foot, tells him "WE DO NOT NEED YOU TO DO THAT". Crump got that quote quite wrong.

Implying criminal behavior because an individual failed to break the chain of events is not legal theory- it is Serino's opinion.

That is not an accurate representation of what transpired during the 911 call, the police dispatcher did not encourage Zimmerman "to keep an eye on Trayvon"

Zimmerman 911 call (excerpt)


He’s running. [2:08]

911 dispatcher:

He’s running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman:

Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]

911 dispatcher:

OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?

Zimmerman:

The back entrance.

911 dispatcher:

Are you following him? [2:24]

Zimmerman:

Yeah. [2:25]

911 dispatcher:

OK.

We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

Zimmerman:

OK. [2:28]

911 dispatcher:

Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34]

Zimmerman:

George. He ran.

911 dispatcher:

Alright, George, what’s your last name?

Zimmerman:

Zimmerman.

911 dispatcher:

What’s the phone number you’re calling from?

To answer these questions, provide the information, and the "let me know if he does anything else" @ 1:43, Zimmerman has to keep an eye on Trayvon, who becomes a moving subject.

He is being asked to supply information on a moving subject that would possibly entail Zimmerman moving also in order to provide the requested information.

Listening to the call, we can hear Zimmerman get out of his truck after being asked 'which way is he running?'.

IMO, there are some serious unanswered questions.
First, DID the dispatcher ask GZ to "keep tabs" on TM?
And, if so, what would that entail?
After TM supposedly circled GZ' car (according to GZ) WAS GZ "afraid" of this teenager?
IF he was really "afraid" of TM, would he have gotten out of his car OR perhaps have locked the doors, waited in place, driven down the block to locate an address on the first or second house?

GZ' actions do NOT equate to a person who is afraid.

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

That is not an accurate representation of what transpired during the 911 call, the police dispatcher did not encourage Zimmerman "to keep an eye on Trayvon"

Zimmerman 911 call (excerpt)


He’s running. [2:08]

911 dispatcher:

He’s running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman:

Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]

911 dispatcher:

OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?

Zimmerman:

The back entrance.

911 dispatcher:

Are you following him? [2:24]

Zimmerman:

Yeah. [2:25]

911 dispatcher:

OK.

We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

Zimmerman:

OK. [2:28]

911 dispatcher:

Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34]

Zimmerman:

George. He ran.

911 dispatcher:

Alright, George, what’s your last name?

Zimmerman:

Zimmerman.

911 dispatcher:

What’s the phone number you’re calling from?

To answer these questions, provide the information, and the "let me know if he does anything else" @ 1:43, Zimmerman has to keep an eye on Trayvon, who becomes a moving subject.

He is being asked to supply information on a moving subject that would possibly entail Zimmerman moving also in order to provide the requested information.

Listening to the call, we can hear Zimmerman get out of his truck after being asked 'which way is he running?'.

The dispatcher didn't ask him to get out of his truck and follow Trayvon. The reason why the prosecutor used Zimmerman 911 call as probable cause in the affidavit that was submitted for his arrest was because the 911 call is a very damning piece of evidence against him.

Tamta wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:I'm happy to see that TM's family is getting to see justice play out. So many other murders were swept under the carpet, as this one would have been had it not been for the parents outcry for justice and the backup they received from Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson.

I applaud all of them for seeking justice against a senseless murder such as this one. When we can't send our TEENAGE children to the store this society is regressing and it becomes an injustice for ALL...not just TM.

One should NOT look suspiscious just for walking down the street.. MANY would have found ZIMMERMAN suspect, I wonder how he would have felt if the tables were turned. I wonder how HIS family would have felt if the only word of the shooter was taken.

So some might be looking for justification of this senseless murder and feeling that ZIMMERMAN was in the right to be carrying a loaded weapon while going to Target and ending up shooting an unarmed teenager, but I do not and will not ever see the justification that is being stated by some. I just wonder if the same justification would be sought if it were their loved one that was gunned down like this?????? My guess is it wouldn't be the same point of view.

CBM.

[color=red]1. Trayvon went to the store that night on his own volition, he was not sent by an adult.
[/color] Then teenagers can't go to the store by themselves at 7 pm...I don't think that this should be even part of the discussion!
2. Trayvon was not walking down the street when spotted and observed by Zimmerman. According to the NEN call, Trayvon was approaching him and then Trayvon ran away.

3. Trayvon was shot, the circumstances have yet to be argued whether or not it was murder, and no discovery has been made public which offers indisputable fact that it was murder.

4. Zimmerman was legally carrying his weapon, and it is not illegal nor uncommon to carry it loaded.

5. Being of the opinion that there is NO evidence to disprove a Self Defense claim is not equivalent to supporting 'senseless murder' or even the unfortunate death of Trayvon Martin, and it is simply twisted logic and lack of fairmindedness to insinuate such.

If State's theory supporters would like to continue singing lalalalala with their hands over their ears in the face of facts or lack there of, fine by me, however they should be able to continue to do so without egregious factual misrepresentations and manipulating arguments to make it appear as if close observers of this case who just want the system to be left alone to do its job are not seeking justifiable murder.

Self Defense is legally, not emotionally, justifiable homicide NOT justifiable murder.

Just getting caught up on this thread.... @ Tamta the bolded and underlined section by me... I am questioning that part of your reasoning. The NEN call was placed by GZ as he was reporting a suspicious guy walking around looking about.
Dispatcher

Sanford Police Department.

Zimmerman

Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, it's Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
GZ has profiled TM in the first sentence of his call
Dispatcher

OK, and this guy is he white, black, or hispanic?

Zimmerman

He looks black.

Dispatcher

Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman

Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's here now, he was just staring.

Dispatcher

OK, he's just walking around the area…

Zimmerman

looking at all the houses.

Dispatcher

OK… so far TM has done nothing wrong and the dispatcher seems ???

Zimmerman
Now he's just staring at me. I am guessing at this point it is okay for GZ to stare at TM.. but TM who still is doing nothing wrong is staring back... hmmmmmm

Dispatcher

OK-you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?

Zimmerman

That's the clubhouse…

Dispatcher

That's the clubhouse, do you know what the-he's near the clubhouse right now?

Zimmerman

Yeah, now he's coming towards me. I am wondering if TM at this point is thinking about confronting and finding out why someone is staring at him?? This is at the 1:20 mark approximately.

Dispatcher

OK.

Zimmerman

He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Dispatcher

How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman

He's got button on his shirt, late teens.

Dispatcher

Late teens. Ok.

Zimmerman

Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.
GZ still does not sound concerned... voice pitch and tempo does not change.. sounds very calm
Dispatcher

Just let me know if he does anything, ok? I find this comment noteworthy as the Dispatcher is gathering information but to this point there has been nothing to note that was criminal

Zimmerman

(unclear) See if you can get an officer over here.

Dispatcher

Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else. I am not certain what the else is? other than approach GZ, look at him (most likely to be able to identify GZ) and then walk away... real confrontational there TM ***note sarcasm!

Zimmerman

Okay. These (expletive) they always get away. Yep. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.

Dispatcher

So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?

Zimmerman

No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left, uh, you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. (expletive) he's running.

Dispatcher

He's running? Which way is he running?

Ambient sounds are heard which may be Zimmerman unbuckling his seat belt and his vehicle's "open door" chime sounding. The change in his voice and the sound of wind against his cell phone mic indicate that he has left his vehicle and is now walking. The dispatcher seems to pick up on these changes and sounds concerned when he later asks Zimmerman if he is following Martin.
Zimmerman

Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

Dispatcher

Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?

Zimmerman

The back entrance…(expletive)(unclear)

This section of the recording has been the subject of much speculation. Some suggest that Zimmerman has just made a racial slur, but the audio is not clear.

Dispatcher

Are you following him?

Zimmerman

Yeah.

Dispatcher

Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Zimmerman

Ok.

Dispatcher

Alright sir what is your name?

Zimmerman

George…He ran.

Dispatcher

Alright George what's your last name?

A clicking or knocking sound can be heard here

Zimmerman

Zimmerman

Dispatcher

And George what's the phone number you're calling from?

Clicking or knocking sound is heard again

Zimmerman

[phone number removed]

Dispatcher

Alright George we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?

Zimmerman

Yeah.

Dispatcher

Alright, where you going to meet with them at?

For the remainder of the recording, Zimmerman sounds distracted. The knocking sound occurs several times during the final exchange with the dispatcher
Zimmerman

Um, if they come in through the, uh, (knocking sound) gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, (knocking sound) straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...[unintelligible]

Dispatcher

What address are you parked in front of?

Zimmerman

I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address.

Dispatcher

Okay do you live in the area?

Zimmerman

Yeah, I...[unintelligible]

Dispatcher

What's your apartment number?

Zimmerman

It's a home it's [house number removed], (knocking sound) oh crap I don't want to give it all out, I don't know where this kid is. We hear GZ get out of the vehicle and the wind noise is evident.. the knocking sound to my knowledge has not been identified... but we did not hear either the door open again.. and the open door reminder sounds or the door of the vehicle close.

Dispatcher

Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?

Zimmerman

Yeah that's fine.

Dispatcher

Alright George, I'll let them know to meet you around there, okay?

Zimmerman

Actually could you have them, could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at? This bothers me because if he has returned to his vehicle why could the Police not meet him there... because in my opinion he wanted them to call so he could tell them where he followed TM to and apprehended him at!!

Dispatcher

Okay, yeah that's no problem.

Zimmerman

Should I give you my number or you got it?

Dispatcher

Yeah I got it [phone number removed]

Zimmerman

Yeah you got it.

Dispatcher

Okay no problem, I'll let them know to call you when you're in the area.

Zimmerman

Thanks.

Dispatcher

You're welcome.

All of the brown comments are by me... not trying to start anything but the 911 call by GZ clearly shows that TM was not doing anything to be reported.. he was (at least initially) non-confrontational. ** last night I saw a car parked in one neighbours driveway when I went outside for a smoke.. they started the car and moved to the driveway on the other side of my home... this looked suspicious to me ... so I went around my house to observe and get a plate number in case there was a problem..also called hubby to come and look at who was driving the vehicle... Would I have been the one who was aggressive..confrontational..doing something wrong, on drugs??? ****
JMOO

Well Zimmerman and the FBI give the contexts of crime issues in the complex and Sanford. In fact as recently as week or two ago local Sanford papers are still addressing crime in the city.

The NW Manual and Coordinator in the FBI report show duties of observing and reporting.

I've called my local precinct twice to report suspicious conduct in a former high crime area where I used to reside.
I don't know what came of it ultimately but I did not feel confrontational or unjust about doing so. For all I know someone was just robbed, about to be robbed or these guys were locked out of their building and hoping to access it by scaling the rooftops to use a fire escape.

Zimmerman's prior history of publicly released calls to Police don't show a confrontational person and neither does waiting until Trayvon is out of sight to see where he is going.

The one time I did speak in person to LE regarding the call I was asked to describe the suspicious conduct and where I observed it and any other information about immediate circumstances. They did not question me as to why I perceived it as behavior that should be reported.

What happened to my post?? I know it was way off topic but I labeled it as such.

Methinks I hit preview instead of send.

DebFrmHell wrote:What happened to my post?? I know it was way off topic but I labeled it as such.

Methinks I hit preview instead of send.

Hi Deb. I'm not seeing that any of your posts were removed.

Tamta wrote:Well Zimmerman and the FBI give the contexts of crime issues in the complex and Sanford. In fact as recently as week or two ago local Sanford papers are still addressing crime in the city.

The NW Manual and Coordinator in the FBI report show duties of observing and reporting.

I've called my local precinct twice to report suspicious conduct in a former high crime area where I used to reside.
I don't know what came of it ultimately but I did not feel confrontational or unjust about doing so. For all I know someone was just robbed, about to be robbed or these guys were locked out of their building and hoping to access it by scaling the rooftops to use a fire escape.

Zimmerman's prior history of publicly released calls to Police don't show a confrontational person and neither does waiting until Trayvon is out of sight to see where he is going.

The one time I did speak in person to LE regarding the call I was asked to describe the suspicious conduct and where I observed it and any other information about immediate circumstances. They did not question me as to why I perceived it as behavior that should be reported.

The FBI is a government agency, Zimmerman is a private citizen, and as a self appointed neighborhood watch captain, his only job was to patrol his neighborhood and to report to the police any kind of suspicious activities that might had taken place in the area that he patrolled, Zimmerman is not a police officer, or a member of any law enforcement agency. However, if Zimmerman intended to make a "citizen's arrest" when he followed Trayvon into the common backyard area, he had to abide by the same laws as the law enforcement officers in Florida.

"When someone has the reasonable suspicion that a felony has been committed, a citizen's arrest might be made. The arrest is no different than any other police arrest. All relevant laws apply. Excessive force cannot be used, for example. But the general concept is that any citizen has the right to stop another who has committed a felony."

We know that the above doesn't apply to Trayvon Martin because he was not engaging in actions that violated the law in any way, shape, or form. According to Zimmerman, Trayvon was "leisurely walking in the rain", "just walking around, looking about".

Julie wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:What happened to my post?? I know it was way off topic but I labeled it as such.

Methinks I hit preview instead of send.

Hi Deb. I'm not seeing that any of your posts were removed.

I think I must have hit preview instead of send, saw the post and closed it out.

OMD! I will have to do it again after I get home from work, it is so freaking crazy funny! It is about ScammersFrmHell vrs DebFrmHell

DebFrmHell wrote:

Tell me why I should believe anything he said when it appears to be self serving to him?

Self-Serving or the truth? If you were accused of doing something you did not do, wouldn't all of your protestations/explanations come across as self-serving?

You already don't believe anything he says so everything he does say does comes across as self-serving.

But you still chose to ignore the evidence that points towards his innocence? And it is not his word that the evidence is based on. He has witnesses, injuries and DNA that support his story.

This is some hamster wheel we are all on.

I have looked over much of the evidence reports with an open mind and find the story of GZ most wanting. I still keep hoping there will be something, anything of truth and value in the statements of GZ. I find nothing of value. DNA: WAS TM' DNA found on any part of the gun? Was GZ' DNA found on the ice tea can? Was GZ' blood from the head injuries found on the sidewalk?

Yes, GZ story IS self serving. It has to be. It is HIS story and TM can not refute it.
While I expect GZ to slant the story in his own favor (writer's license kind of thing) the apparent twists he has added amount to lies.

As to witnesses: There were NONE who saw the following. None who can confirm TM circled the car and IIRC, video from the club house does not show that. There were CONFLICTING witness reports re the physical confrontation between the victim and the perp. Who to believe? Toss out the conflicting info and go with the evidence. What do you have? No proof of SYG for the perp. But he did admit:
He called LE and reported his suspicions.(Proven.)
He reported his concerns to LE re TM as possibly being involved in suspicious activity. (Proven to be incorrect.)
He knew TM was a teen. (Proven.)
He followed TM. (Proven although reason is clouded.)
He admitted to firing a gun killing TM. (Proven this gun did fire a bullet killing TM. Print evidence, however, indicates "foreign" DNA on gun. Recent or earlier time ?)

What else can we show proof of ?

Justanopinion posted;
"
Um, if they come in through the, uh, (knocking sound) gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, (knocking sound) straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...[unintelligible]"

At first, I understood GZ had driven his truck there.
Later, GZ stated (PD report?) TM had circled his car.
Other references to his car.

Which is it?

Freckles wrote:Justanopinion posted;
"
Um, if they come in through the, uh, (knocking sound) gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, (knocking sound) straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...[unintelligible]"

At first, I understood GZ had driven his truck there.
Later, GZ stated (PD report?) TM had circled his car.
Other references to his car.

Which is it?

Zimmerman has a grey Honda Ridgeline. It is a truck.

Deb- Thanks for the clarification.
Why would GZ refer to the vehicle he owned as a car if it was a truck?

Did LE find a car or a truck at the site which purportedly belonged to GZ or SZ?

KEYS:
Re GZ possibly having the keys in his hand at the time TM was killed: IIRC, on the dispatch audio it can be heard the sound of the "dinging" of the vehicle indicating the keys were still in the ignition when GZ opened the vehicle door to follow TM. Did GZ remove the keys prior to shutting the vehicle door and following TM? Or did he leave the keys in the ignition as the sound appears to indicate? IF he left the keys in the vehicle, he would not have them in his hand or on his person at the time of the confrontation with TM. (One less item he would be having in his hand.)

So we know from recovered evidence:
GZ had a gun, a flashlight, his cell phone.

LIGHT:
It is not unusual for a LE officer to place the small flashlight on top of the gun so the "target" is illuminated.
IF GZ did this, he probably used two hands: one for the gun and the other for the light. In relation to TM' body, how far away was the light found?

CELLPHONE of GZ:
GZ used his cellphone before the shooting (while still in his vehicle) and then after the shooting (to take pics of his head and to notify his wife, SZ.) Has a witness stated where the cell phone was located prior to GZ using it? (Because he had disconnected from dispatch upon leaving his vehicle, IMO, he may have placed the cell phone in a pocket--- shirt, jacket, pants. IF he had it his hand then he would have had a gun, flashlight, and a cell phone in his two hands during the confrontation and then seems a bit over the top.)

TODAY IS THE DAY TO GET YOUR BUTTS OUT THE DOOR TO VOTE!

I don't care which side anyone is on. This is the one day that we get to make our opinions known as to whether the people we have put in office have done their jobs or not.

Just do it.

I still would like to kick around what everyone thinks is the knocking sounds heard near the end of the NEN call with GZ. Anyone have any ideas??

DebFrmHell wrote:TODAY IS THE DAY TO GET YOUR BUTTS OUT THE DOOR TO VOTE!

I don't care which side anyone is on. This is the one day that we get to make our opinions known as to whether the people we have put in office have done their jobs or not.

Just do it.

Yes!! Ok to be off topic on this for a little bit! VOTE EVERYONE!! Take a neighbor or friend, too, especially if they have limited mobility or limited transportation.

My 11 year old begged to be allowed to go with me to the polls to see how it all works. How cool is that?!

VOTE!!

Tamta wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:I'm happy to see that TM's family is getting to see justice play out. So many other murders were swept under the carpet, as this one would have been had it not been for the parents outcry for justice and the backup they received from Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson.

I applaud all of them for seeking justice against a senseless murder such as this one. When we can't send our TEENAGE children to the store this society is regressing and it becomes an injustice for ALL...not just TM.

One should NOT look suspiscious just for walking down the street.. MANY would have found ZIMMERMAN suspect, I wonder how he would have felt if the tables were turned. I wonder how HIS family would have felt if the only word of the shooter was taken.

So some might be looking for justification of this senseless murder and feeling that ZIMMERMAN was in the right to be carrying a loaded weapon while going to Target and ending up shooting an unarmed teenager, but I do not and will not ever see the justification that is being stated by some. I just wonder if the same justification would be sought if it were their loved one that was gunned down like this?????? My guess is it wouldn't be the same point of view.

CBM.

1. Trayvon went to the store that night on his own volition, he was not sent by an adult.

2. Trayvon was not walking down the street when spotted and observed by Zimmerman. According to the NEN call, Trayvon was approaching him and then Trayvon ran away.

3. Trayvon was shot, the circumstances have yet to be argued whether or not it was murder, and no discovery has been made public which offers indisputable fact that it was murder.

4. Zimmerman was legally carrying his weapon, and it is not illegal nor uncommon to carry it loaded.

5. Being of the opinion that there is NO evidence to disprove a Self Defense claim is not equivalent to supporting 'senseless murder' or even the unfortunate death of Trayvon Martin, and it is simply twisted logic and lack of fairmindedness to insinuate such.

If State's theory supporters would like to continue singing lalalalala with their hands over their ears in the face of facts or lack there of, fine by me, however they should be able to continue to do so without egregious factual misrepresentations and manipulating arguments to make it appear as if close observers of this case who just want the system to be left alone to do its job are not seeking justifiable murder.
Self Defense is legally, not emotionally, justifiable homicide NOT justifiable murder.

I don't exactly call having opposite opinions "egregious factual misrepresentations and manipulating arguments".....I call it voicing MY opinion which happenes to be NO different from YOURS, with the exception that you are a ZIMMERMAN supporter and "I" am a Trayvon supporter. I support life not a useless death. I set my priorities in a different direction than you, obviously....

I'll keep mine where it is. Lets just BOTH agree that something like this TRAVESTY doesn't happen to one of OUR loved ones....I'm sure the logic would be a little different then.

DebFrmHell wrote:The one thing that I appreciate about this forum that you do not see on many of the others is the opportunity to express one's point of view. It can be either for or against the gentlemen in question and as long as it is a civil discussion, it is allowable.

This is not a board filled with hypocrites or rampant speculation and I am grateful for the venue.

One thing I do want to state is that I am sorry that young man lost his life. And I do agree it never should have happened. I just don't agree with the circumstances.

Because of things that came forth during the trial of the man that murdered my cousin, I feel sorry for his parents, too. They really have no idea what is in store for them. What they might imagine is not nearly the scope of what will occur.

For my relatives, the heartbreaker was the autopsy report. There is a lot of finality that comes from someone reporting on the death of a loved one.

Ha...Since When????? Only IF Everyone Agrees With YOU.

Tamta wrote:

Freckles wrote:It is not wrong:
-to carry a gun when licensed to do so;
-to walk down a street even behind another person;
-to walk through a neighborhood not your own;

UNLESS you have intent to break the law with your actions.
THEN it is WRONG and against the law.

I do NOT know what the intentions of GZ were that night.
He had more ability to protect himself or to be aggressive to another than TM did. Until I hear more of his intentions I will continue to question this killing and simply call it a murder.

We know of TM' intentions that night.
They were to go to the store and obtain two items.
Return to the home and watch TV.
IMO, TM was NOT the aggressor.
He was not instilling fear into anyone else that night.
He was minding his own business when he was accosted, shot, and murdered. IF anyone had the SYG right that night, it would have been the person in front of GZ.

(a witness even tells them he's calling police) and he appears to not have retreated. The issue with the theory that Trayvon could invoke SYG is that the evidence right now points to Trayvon engaging, subduing, and injuring Zimmerman, having the opportunity to retreat
Trayvon clearly was on top of Zimmerman. Trayvon was shot at close range and his body recovered by LE face down. He did not appear to be running away from Zimmerman nor was underneath him either.

I just don't see the State going there.

And you know this???? How???? The only one left to tell this is the TRIGGER MAN....


And please don't tell me the witnesses....BECAUSE THERE WERE NONE TO THE SHOOTING.........THAT IS ANYONE STILL ALIVE ANYWAY....

Freckles wrote:Tamta wrote:
Clipped-
My response in blue.

" However three people assert Travyon was safely at home, and yet despite a considerable lead, he ends up back in front of Zimmerman again? That is not fear- it is something else
anger, annoyance, petulance whatever. It was not fear. Getting inside, locking the door, telling someone and calling 911 is fear.
-- I do not know who reported TM was at the home, safely inside. This implies he went back outside and I do not believe I have read this. Did the young man who was a resident of the home TM was staying report this? Did any member of TM' family report TM HAD actually entered the premises?

-- I do not know if TM at this point was fearful or being cautionary. GZ is one person who stated he was afraid of TM after TM reportedly circled his car.

Trayvon was not carrying a weapon, but could have used one- Zimmerman's, (after he realized Zimmerman had one) if Zimmerman had not gotten to it first.

-- This is speculation regarding what TM may have been able to do. The fact is: TM did NOT have a weapon on him. It is GZ word stating TM had seen the gun and was going for it. I find this speculation on the part of GZ at best.

In fact Zimmerman claims that Trayvon saw his weapon and appeared to be reaching for it. In that situation, between strangers, how is one to know what the other is capable of doing? Neither knew each other's state of mind.

-- It would be most logical for GZ to state TM was reaching for his gun. After all, dead men do not talk! GZ NEEDED an alibi to explain why he shot a teenager, why he followed said teen he shot, why he disobeyed instructions to NOT follow. And to distract from WHY he even got out of the car when he supposedly was afraid of said teen. I do not believe GZ. Period. Everything he says is to blame the victim. He has lied to the courts and that information was captured in jail house audio.

Tell me why I should believe anything he said when it appears to be self serving to him?



Zimmerman was not walking around with his gun out seeing as he was on his cell, had keys, flashlight, etc. and he was on the way back to his vehicle.

-- I do not know what GZ may have held in his hands. From evidence collected from the walkway, there was a flashlight. Where were car keys recovered? His cell phone? I do not know where he had the gun BUT presume it was in his waistband. Has anyone stated GZ was "waving" a gun about? If so, please provide a link as that is new speculation for me.

No witness reported seeing a gun waving around during the fight. I think Zimmerman's statement about him noticing Trayvon noticing the weapon is quite credible and makes sense of how this fight turned fatal.

-- Conceal and carry is just that. The gun is to not to be in the open but carried concealed by clothing. Why would TM be able to see the gun or even know of its existence?
When my son carries he always has his gun under his clothing, usually under his coat/jacket. It is not easy for the clothing to "fall away" exposing the gun. That would be a violation of law as "concealed" would not be carried out. Further, as it was winter and rainy, would it be incorrect to believe GZ had his jacket zipped up? Do we know if the jacket was zipped when the LE arrived? One would think he would protect his gun from the rain.

Zimmerman knew the PD were on the way and he had had contact with a witness who was also calling LE- hanging out taking a few more punches was not going to be that hard- something had to have happened to have changed the scenario that drastically.

Zimmerman was waiting for the PD.

-- No, GZ was NOT waiting for the LE. He took it upon himself to "investigate" where TM had gone; he took it upon himself to follow TM; he took it upon himself to disregard the advice of the dispatcher. (See, LE are wise enough to know when trouble MIGHT brew or things go out of control which, IMO, is why he was told to not follow. He also was not instructed to get out of his car but did that upon his own motivation and deesire.
"

Freckles...Some just want to listen to what they want to listen to, the rest doesn't matter to them....Some want to believe that Trayvon had this coming to him (after all what business did this young man have walking to the store?) but their too cowardess to admit it...But if it were to happen to them, then it would be a different story for sure.

Tamta wrote:Well Zimmerman and the FBI give the contexts of crime issues in the complex and Sanford. In fact as recently as week or two ago local Sanford papers are still addressing crime in the city.

The NW Manual and Coordinator in the FBI report show duties of observing and reporting.

I've called my local precinct twice to report suspicious conduct in a former high crime area where I used to reside.
I don't know what came of it ultimately but I did not feel confrontational or unjust about doing so. For all I know someone was just robbed, about to be robbed or these guys were locked out of their building and hoping to access it by scaling the rooftops to use a fire escape.

Zimmerman's prior history of publicly released calls to Police don't show a confrontational person and neither does waiting until Trayvon is out of sight to see where he is going.

The one time I did speak in person to LE regarding the call I was asked to describe the suspicious conduct and where I observed it and any other information about immediate circumstances. They did not question me as to why I perceived it as behavior that should be reported.

You mean you didn't load your gun and hunt the person down? Surprise, surprise...

Gizmo711 wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:The one thing that I appreciate about this forum that you do not see on many of the others is the opportunity to express one's point of view. It can be either for or against the gentlemen in question and as long as it is a civil discussion, it is allowable.

This is not a board filled with hypocrites or rampant speculation and I am grateful for the venue.

One thing I do want to state is that I am sorry that young man lost his life. And I do agree it never should have happened. I just don't agree with the circumstances.

Because of things that came forth during the trial of the man that murdered my cousin, I feel sorry for his parents, too. They really have no idea what is in store for them. What they might imagine is not nearly the scope of what will occur.

For my relatives, the heartbreaker was the autopsy report. There is a lot of finality that comes from someone reporting on the death of a loved one.

Ha...Since When????? Only IF Everyone Agrees With YOU.

Aren't you being a little obnoxious today?

Gizmo711 wrote:

Tamta wrote:

CBM.

1. Trayvon went to the store that night on his own volition, he was not sent by an adult.

2. Trayvon was not walking down the street when spotted and observed by Zimmerman. According to the NEN call, Trayvon was approaching him and then Trayvon ran away.

3. Trayvon was shot, the circumstances have yet to be argued whether or not it was murder, and no discovery has been made public which offers indisputable fact that it was murder.

4. Zimmerman was legally carrying his weapon, and it is not illegal nor uncommon to carry it loaded.

5. Being of the opinion that there is NO evidence to disprove a Self Defense claim is not equivalent to supporting 'senseless murder' or even the unfortunate death of Trayvon Martin, and it is simply twisted logic and lack of fairmindedness to insinuate such.

If State's theory supporters would like to continue singing lalalalala with their hands over their ears in the face of facts or lack there of, fine by me, however they should be able to continue to do so without egregious factual misrepresentations and manipulating arguments to make it appear as if close observers of this case who just want the system to be left alone to do its job are not seeking justifiable murder.
Self Defense is legally, not emotionally, justifiable homicide NOT justifiable murder.

I don't exactly call having opposite opinions "egregious factual misrepresentations and manipulating arguments".....I call it voicing MY opinion which happenes to be NO different from YOURS, with the exception that you are a ZIMMERMAN supporter and "I" am a Trayvon supporter. I support life not a useless death. I set my priorities in a different direction than you, obviously....

I'll keep mine where it is. Lets just BOTH agree that something like this TRAVESTY doesn't happen to one of OUR loved ones....I'm sure the logic would be a little different then.

Gizmo,

A fair amount of what you have been posting lately can not even be labeled as opinion, because you are not accurately citing facts associated with this case.

Gizmo711 wrote:

Tamta wrote:

(a witness even tells them he's calling police) and he appears to not have retreated. The issue with the theory that Trayvon could invoke SYG is that the evidence right now points to Trayvon engaging, subduing, and injuring Zimmerman, having the opportunity to retreat
Trayvon clearly was on top of Zimmerman. Trayvon was shot at close range and his body recovered by LE face down. He did not appear to be running away from Zimmerman nor was underneath him either.

I just don't see the State going there.

And you know this???? How???? The only one left to tell this is the TRIGGER MAN....


And please don't tell me the witnesses....BECAUSE THERE WERE NONE TO THE SHOOTING.........THAT IS ANYONE STILL ALIVE ANYWAY....

You are either refusing to listen or refusing to see anyone else's point.

What we do know about the shooting, if DeeDee and Brandi are telling the truth, "is" that Trayvon had gone all the way back to Brandi's house and then turned around and went back to confront GZ.

Puzzler wrote:What we do know about the shooting, if DeeDee and Brandi are telling the truth, "is" that Trayvon had gone all the way back to Brandi's house and then turned around and went back to confront GZ.

BBM.

AND Tracy.

Tracy? The father? He wasn't there.

What IF TM did return? Is he not to be given the same rights to walk down a sidewalk as GZ?

There is no evidence TM was shot in a prone position or seated on GZ. IF there is a link, please. I would like to see that. I still speculate IF TM was shot by GZ while standing and facing GZ. No evidence of TM being on his back on the ground.

GZ was carrying on his right side.
He is a left handed shooter, IIRC.
This would mean he had to cross his hand over to opposing hip to remove gun.
I don't see him doing this easily in a prone position.

Freckles wrote:Tracy? The father? He wasn't there.

What IF TM did return? Is he not to be given the same rights to walk down a sidewalk as GZ?

There is no evidence TM was shot in a prone position or seated on GZ. IF there is a link, please. I would like to see that. I still speculate IF TM was shot by GZ while standing and facing GZ. No evidence of TM being on his back on the ground.

GZ was carrying on his right side.
He is a left handed shooter, IIRC.
This would mean he had to cross his hand over to opposing hip to remove gun.
I don't see him doing this easily in a prone position.

I posted the OS video the other day which shows Tracy Martin saying the same thing that both Brandi and DeeDee assert-

that Trayvon was at the house right before the fatal confrontation with Zimmerman.

These are three deposable witnesses who are on the record for stating information that
undermine State's assertions that the confrontation and shooting was contemporaneous to Zimmerman leaving his vehicle.

According to what they say, it appears it was
not.

Tracey was not in the home. IF he had been he would have known his son had been killed. He is probably relying on hearsay. So that does not work for me. Unless there is some other evidence of him having returned to the home????

Tamta wrote:

Freckles wrote:Tracy? The father? He wasn't there.

What IF TM did return? Is he not to be given the same rights to walk down a sidewalk as GZ?

There is no evidence TM was shot in a prone position or seated on GZ. IF there is a link, please. I would like to see that. I still speculate IF TM was shot by GZ while standing and facing GZ. No evidence of TM being on his back on the ground.

GZ was carrying on his right side.
He is a left handed shooter, IIRC.
This would mean he had to cross his hand over to opposing hip to remove gun.
I don't see him doing this easily in a prone position.

I posted the OS video the other day which shows Tracy Martin saying the same thing that both Brandi and DeeDee assert-

that Trayvon was at the house right before the fatal confrontation with Zimmerman.

These are three deposable witnesses who are on the record for stating information that
undermine State's assertions that the confrontation and shooting was contemporaneous to Zimmerman leaving his vehicle.

According to what they say, it appears it was
not.

Here is the video where Tracy Martin retraced Trayvon's final steps........He never said that Trayvon made it to the house, on the contrary, he lamented the fact that Trayvon was not able to make to safety and that he was shot just 70 yards away from the house.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Tamta wrote:

I posted the OS video the other day which shows Tracy Martin saying the same thing that both Brandi and DeeDee assert-

that Trayvon was at the house right before the fatal confrontation with Zimmerman.

These are three deposable witnesses who are on the record for stating information that
undermine State's assertions that the confrontation and shooting was contemporaneous to Zimmerman leaving his vehicle.

According to what they say, it appears it was
not.

Here is the video where Tracy Martin retraced Trayvon's final steps........He never said that Trayvon made it to the house, on the contrary, he lamented the fact that Trayvon was not able to make to safety and that he was shot just 70 yards away from the house.

I never posted that video.

This is the one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=x34vSJrIqe0#!


Tracy Martin

@:35

" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"Presumably that was the path he took. I don't know of the exact path he took but he DID(emphasis Tracy's) go through that back gate...um, and I knew he was going to the back of the house. He was sitting out there. "

But, again, if DeeDee is to be believed, Trayvon wasn't simply walking down the sidewalk...he confronted GZ.

And DeeDee's words basically are the same as GZ's words, when he said that Trayvon came up behind him and confronted him.

Tamta wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Here is the video where Tracy Martin retraced Trayvon's final steps........He never said that Trayvon made it to the house, on the contrary, he lamented the fact that Trayvon was not able to make to safety and that he was shot just 70 yards away from the house.

I never posted that video.

This is the one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=x34vSJrIqe0#!


Tracy Martin

@:35

" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"Presumably that was the path he took. I don't know of the exact path he took but he DID(emphasis Tracy's) go through that back gate...um, and I knew he was going to the back of the house. He was sitting out there. "

Thank you so much for posting the link to the video.

It is very clear that Tracy thought that the events of the night of the shooting initiated at the back entrance (back gate), which is closer to Brandy's house. He probably saw Trayvon "sitting out there" ( on the back porch of the house) before he left for dinner. It wasn't after he was told (by the police) that "it happened by the clubhouse", that he realized that when Zimmerman first saw Trayvon, it was by the front gate to the community.