Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #7

by Alessandra_Deux Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:36 pm

George Zimmerman's team to question more witnesses

Jeff Weiner, Staff Writer
12:28 p.m. EST, November 6, 2012

George Zimmerman's defense team plans to interview several of the still-unnamed civilian witnesses in his second-degree murder case later this week, according to new court documents.

On Thursday, Zimmerman's attorneys will depose five numbered witnesses listed by prosecutors — witnesses 3, 12, 13, 19 and 21. Two more — witnesses 1 and 2 — will be deposed on Friday.

A Sanford police captain and a private investigator are also listed on the new deposition schedules.

Read more:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-witnesses-20121106,0,6921542.story

by Guest Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:43 pm

Social Media, Growing in Legal Circles, Find a Role in Florida Murder Case

In ways large and small, the State of Florida v. George Zimmerman is serving as a modernized blueprint for deploying social media in a murder case.

“The way the whole case has been playing out in social media is typical of our times, but more typical of civil cases than criminal cases,” said Robert Ambrogi, a lawyer and technology expert who writes a blog on the intersection of the legal profession and social media. “It’s not without precedent, but it’s on the cutting edge.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/07/us/social-media-finds-a-role-in-case-against-zimmerman.html?_r=0

by Alessandra_Deux Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:01 am

Amended Scheduling Order

Filed October 29, 2012

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Amended%20Scheduling%20Order.pdf

by Freckles Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:30 am

Again. Tracey Martin can only speculate what happened to his son that night.
Tracey Martin was NOT present.

Like any parent with a child they have invested in and love, Tracey was searching for an understanding of the event. He was trying to put the pieces into the puzzle. Same as we are. And like us, he was NOT there.

I wonder when Tracey made the statement re where he believed his son was that night? I wonder if he has changed his opinion?

IF Tracey REALLY knew what had transpired, he would NOT have been left wondering where his son was as the night progressed, would he?

by DebFrmHell Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:31 am

"120 seconds and his life would have been spared."

Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin for approx 4 min. Dee Dee emphasized to BdlR on 6 occasions during her interview that Martin told her he lost Zimmerman, too. Every time BdlR tried to lead her into saying otherwise, she immediately corrected him. "No. He said he lost him."

He either had to lay in wait, double back or some combination of both. I do not believe that he was laying in wait. I believe he got near the Green TH and doubled back for reasons of his own.

Tracy Martin is right. Within that 4+ min context, 120 seconds and life would have been very much different. For both of these individuals...

Until someone can tell me how it is that a young man with a pretty healthy head start on the pudgier Zimmerman can find his way back to the place where he disappeared from view, I believe that Zimmerman has a self-defense case.

I don't think that young man was a "thug" by any stretch. I do think he had some issues that were in the process of being addressed by his parents. A 10 day suspension is huge for any student.

His mother pulled him from Carol City HS before the end of his sophomore year for reasons unclear and where she admitted he was doing a little better grade-wise, and placed him in the much larger Krop HS. Judging from the three suspensions, it was not a good move for him.

There are no reports of him being in any kind of trouble while at CCHS. Teachers from there had good words to say about him. Sybrina wanted him closer to home, IIRC. Jahvaris Fulton went to Krop, is now a junior in college and he seems to have a good head on his shoulders. Maybe she was hoping the move would have some positive effect on Martin.

His father said that he placed him up in Sanford to get him away from his friends and influences in his neighborhood during his 10 day suspension.

Don't think I am blaming them. They were just doing what they could and what they thought was best for their son.

by Freckles Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:45 am

DebFrmHell wrote:"120 seconds and his life would have been spared."

Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin for approx 4 min. Dee Dee emphasized to BdlR on 6 occasions during her interview that Martin told her he lost Zimmerman, too. Every time BdlR tried to lead her into saying otherwise, she immediately corrected him. "No. He said he lost him."

He either had to lay in wait, double back or some combination of both. I do not believe that he was laying in wait. I believe he got near the Green TH and doubled back for reasons of his own.

Tracy Martin is right. Within that 4+ min context, 120 seconds and life would have been very much different. For both of these individuals...

Until someone can tell me how it is that a young man with a pretty healthy head start on the pudgier Zimmerman can find his way back to the place where he disappeared from view, I believe that Zimmerman has a self-defense case.

I don't think that young man was a "thug" by any stretch. I do think he had some issues that were in the process of being addressed by his parents. A 10 day suspension is huge for any student.

His mother pulled him from Carol City HS before the end of his sophomore year for reasons unclear and where she admitted he was doing a little better grade-wise, and placed him in the much larger Krop HS. Judging from the three suspensions, it was not a good move for him.

There are no reports of him being in any kind of trouble while at CCHS. Teachers from there had good words to say about him. Sybrina wanted him closer to home, IIRC. Jahvaris Fulton went to Krop, is now a junior in college and he seems to have a good head on his shoulders. Maybe she was hoping the move would have some positive effect on Martin.

His father said that he placed him up in Sanford to get him away from his friends and influences in his neighborhood during his 10 day suspension.

Don't think I am blaming them. They were just doing what they could and what they thought was best for their son.

AND the point is?

GZ knew NONE of this when GZ determined to follow TM.
GZ knew none of this when GZ determined to shoot TM.
GZ knew none of this when GZ lied to the LE and to the judge.
GZ knew none of this when GZ determined to make money off the killing by using the internet.

GZ knew only of his own needs.
The need to "prove" his manhood;
the need to attain power over others;
the need to lie to cover his own actions.

No. I do NOT see the shooter as a victim.

by justanopinion Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:00 am

1) I have listen to the NEN call and I don't hear where Zimmerman says TM "circled" the car. I do hear where he states that "now he is looking at me".

2) Why keep running home, if as Dee-Dee states TM thought he had lost GZ. I would think it would be normal to hang out so I could keep talking to her, he didn't hang up the call was interrupted.

3) Tracy and Brandi were supposedly out when this occurred. So anything they are saying at this point is in my opinion speculation. If TM was already at home... and was going back to confront GZ.. it would make sense that TM would have left something there like the Skittles and Iced Tea as those items would get in the way. Even if he was being petulant he would have dropped those items... (watch any fight.. people drop what they are carrying to lighten up and have more mobility)

4) I am still stuck on the knocking heard on the NEN call.. there is something more that we are not hearing about.

5) I am sorry but I believe that memories change over time... we incorporate things we hear and things we would like to believe into those memories to make them easier to deal with. Again set up a situation like watching a fight on TV (have it recorded) and then try to remember exactly what happened and what people were wearing.. remember that it was dark/raining/and anyone watching may have only known one of the people or neither then replay the fight and see how accurate you are. Then don't watch it for 2 months and see how accurate you remember the fight. I have had very traumatic events happen in my life that one would think would be ingrained into my memory... but I can tell you that I could not remember exactly the timing or sequence of those events or even what they were wearing accurately.

and Finally @ Freckles I totally agree with your last post!

by Tamta Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:19 am

Alessandra_Deux wrote:
Tamta wrote:

I never posted that video.

This is the one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=x34vSJrIqe0#!

Tracy Martin

@:35

"Presumably that was the path he took. I don't know of the exact path he took but he DID(emphasis Tracy's) go through that back gate...um, and I knew he was going to the back of the house. He was sitting out there. "

Thank you so much for posting the link to the video.

It is very clear that Tracy thought that the events of the night of the shooting initiated at the back entrance (back gate), which is closer to Brandy's house. He probably saw Trayvon "sitting out there" ( on the back porch of the house) before he left for dinner. It wasn't after he was told (by the police) that "it happened by the clubhouse", that he realized that when Zimmerman first saw Trayvon, it was by the front gate to the community.

You are welcome.

I can see a reason for Tracy and Brandi saying the same thing, but Dee Dee also alleges that he was at his father's house. How can they share the same opinion with Dee Dee when they did not even know her at the time they were recorded saying Trayvon was right there?

If this is indeed true, I would speculate Chad saw Trayvon after returning from the store, or Trayvon ran back, left something on the porch, and went to locate Zimmerman.

My sense is that there is more to this than the opinions of Tracy and Brandi, but what the depositions will reveal and what will happen with that testimony is another thing.

Chad may have some interesting information.

by DebFrmHell Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:45 am

justanopinion wrote:1) I have listen to the NEN call and I don't hear where Zimmerman says TM "circled" the car. I do hear where he states that "now he is looking at me".

Actually, it was "and now he is staring at me."

Here is the rest of the transcript that describes the "circling" action. Zimmerman says that he circled the truck in his statements.

((IMO ALERT! I do not necessarily believe that to be true. I think it sounds more like Martin was approaching the truck. He got close enough for Zimmerman to roll up the window and lock his door.))

GZ: Yeah. Now he is coming towards me.
Sean: Okay
GZ: He has his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
Sean: Okay, how old would you say he is?
GZ: He has a button on his shirt...late teens.
Sean: Late teens? Okay.
GZ: mm-humm. Something's wrong with him. Yep, he's coming to check me out. He has something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is.

2) Why keep running home, if as Dee-Dee states TM thought he had lost GZ. I would think it would be normal to hang out so I could keep talking to her, he didn't hang up the call was interrupted.

Dee Dee said that "he ain't (wasn't) going to run because he was right by his fathers house." The implication being that he has run up to that general area. She describes him as being tired and out of breath. That kind of distance would explain that rather than just running around the corner.

She also uses the phrases "After a couple of minutes" and "started walking back again" I think her deposition will be most interesting since she is the primary witness against George Zimmerman.

3) Tracy and Brandi were supposedly out when this occurred. So anything they are saying at this point is in my opinion speculation. If TM was already at home... and was going back to confront GZ.. it would make sense that TM would have left something there like the Skittles and Iced Tea as those items would get in the way. Even if he was being petulant he would have dropped those items... (watch any fight.. people drop what they are carrying to lighten up and have more mobility)

Agree about the speculation but I am curious as to the source. Possibly Chad Green since he was at home at the time. He wasn't interviewed by anyone until a full two months after the shooting. I know that Brandy and Chad Green were interviewed by Geraldo but I have not listened to it. Could be that they were misinterpreting what they were being told by LE.

I don't think Martin went all the way back to the TH either.

RE: Tea and candy. I have made this point before. The AZ can and the candy were in his front center pocket. From the 7-Eleven video, TM placed the candy in his center pocket. The tea can was in a bag. The tea can ended up in the front center pocket and the bag was on the sidewalk. So the bag was either discarded (by Martin himself or LE when removing it from the center front pocket for CPR efforts) or it came loose in the scuffle.

I thought by putting that can into the center front pocket was to free Martin's hands. Along with returning to that "T" intersection after an approx. 4 minute time gap, it helps to prove Martin's intent.

4) I am still stuck on the knocking heard on the NEN call.. there is something more that we are not hearing about.

Here is a link to a transcript that defines some of the sounds but not the metallic taps per se. IMO ALERT! It could be Zimmerman whacking the flashlight in an effort to make it work.
Alternate version reprinted with permission by TalkLeft

5) I am sorry but I believe that memories change over time... we incorporate things we hear and things we would like to believe into those memories to make them easier to deal with. Again set up a situation like watching a fight on TV (have it recorded) and then try to remember exactly what happened and what people were wearing.. remember that it was dark/raining/and anyone watching may have only known one of the people or neither then replay the fight and see how accurate you are. Then don't watch it for 2 months and see how accurate you remember the fight. I have had very traumatic events happen in my life that one would think would be ingrained into my memory... but I can tell you that I could not remember exactly the timing or sequence of those events or even what they were wearing accurately.

You realize that you just made a case for Zimmerman's inconsistancies within his statements.

and Finally @ Freckles I totally agree with your last post!

Bolded, colorized or emphasis added by yours truly!

Unless Freckles has magically become George Zimmerman, what she believes he believes/thinks is pure speculation.

Speculation is good when it works on behalf of the Prosecution.
Speculation is bad when it works on behalf of the Defense.
Have I got that right? (j/k...sorta)

Within The Constitution of the United States, all defendants, including Zimmerman, are awarded the presumption of innocence. It is up to the State of Florida to prove otherwise beyond reasonable doubt.

The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof lies with who declares, not who denies), is the principle that one is considered innocent until proven guilty. Application of this principle is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, recognised in many nations. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted.

Good Old Wiki Definition of the Presumption of Innocence

by DebFrmHell Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:25 am

Puzzler wrote:But, again, if DeeDee is to be believed, Trayvon wasn't simply walking down the sidewalk...he confronted GZ.

And DeeDee's words basically are the same as GZ's words, when he said that Trayvon came up behind him and confronted him.

It is amazing how much she confirms about what is stated in the NEN but it is important to remember that she did not give her statement to LE until after the NEN call was released after pressure from Crump to Bill Lee to do so.

I firmly believe she was ~~coached~~ prepared by Crump thoroughly beforehand.

All of the 911 tapes and the NEN were released around a week before Crump did his ABC interview with Matt Gutman and about two weeks prior to her deposition by the State.

IMO ALERT! BdlR lead her through that whole interview. He only asked her things to prove the PCA that they desperately needed to bring those charges. He blatantly missed places to question her further in areas that could be used by the Defense.

IMO, he is not a stupid man and he is very passionate about this case. "Everyone" behind Team Crump was demanding an arrest. There are reasons that the Grand Jury called by Norm Wolfinger was disbanded by Corey. It is my opinion that they would have returned a "No Bill."

Political ~~persecu~~...errrrr.....prosecution. ENTIRELY IMO!

by Alessandra_Deux Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:27 am

I believe some people are putting to much weight on Dee-Dee's testimony, even though I consider that it is very important because she actually heard the exchange that took place when Zimmerman approached Trayvon, and she is actually the last person who talked to him before he was shot, I think that the forensic evidence is what is going to play the most important role at the trial, the physical evidence, Zimmerman's DNA (or lack thereof), is very problematic for the defense, it does not coincide with Zimmerman's self defense scenario(s).

by Tamta Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:35 am

DebFrmHell wrote:
Puzzler wrote:But, again, if DeeDee is to be believed, Trayvon wasn't simply walking down the sidewalk...he confronted GZ.

And DeeDee's words basically are the same as GZ's words, when he said that Trayvon came up behind him and confronted him.

It is amazing how much she confirms about what is stated in the NEN but it is important to remember that she did not give her statement to LE until after the NEN call was released after pressure from Crump to Bill Lee to do so.

I firmly believe she was ~~coached~~ prepared by Crump thoroughly beforehand.

All of the 911 tapes and the NEN were released around a week before Crump did his ABC interview with Matt Gutman and about two weeks prior to her deposition by the State.

IMO ALERT! BdlR lead her through that whole interview. He only asked her things to prove the PCA that they desperately needed to bring those charges. He blatantly missed places to question her further in areas that could be used by the Defense.

IMO, he is not a stupid man and he is very passionate about this case. "Everyone" behind Team Crump was demanding an arrest. There are reasons that the Grand Jury called by Norm Wolfinger was disbanded by Corey. It is my opinion that they would have returned a "No Bill."

Political ~~persecu~~...errrrr.....prosecution. ENTIRELY IMO!

BDLR seems to have a bad habit of leading witnesses.

An added note, Crump heard the NEN recording before it was released.

I think it's important event.

I will post the link later today, I can't search for it right now.

by justanopinion Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:40 am

lol @DebFrmHell I guess what I am really trying to say is that no one's testimony/witness account is going to be accurate. It is unfortunately going to have to be woven like a sweater from all the evidence and testimony when this goes to trial. Hope it keeps the jury warm!

But I for one -- don't see GZ as a victim... I do see him as a arrogant (because of his vocal demeanor on the tape and his attempt to consider people stupid with the failed attempt at hiding the funds from the internet and his general body carriage in court) gun toting adult who wasn't able to take direction and however it all ended up was the direct and immanent cause of it. Had he kept his a$$ in his truck and wasn't so willing to make a judgement on a teen walking at 7 pm we would not even be having this discussion. JMOO

by Tamta Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:46 am

Alessandra_Deux wrote:I believe some people are putting to much weight on Dee-Dee's testimony, even though I consider that it is very important because she actually heard the exchange that took place when Zimmerman approached Trayvon, and she is actually the last person who talked to him before he was shot, I think that the forensic evidence is what is going to play the most important role at the trial, the physical evidence, Zimmerman's DNA (or lack thereof), is very problematic for the defense, it does not coincide with Zimmerman's self defense scenario(s).

DeeDee's testimony may never survive depending on what happens with the phone records and original recording of her interview- however there is Tracy, Brandi and Chad who may have testimony that will be evidence for where Trayvon was immediately prior to the confrontation.

I would think the ballistics evidence of a contact shot would be pretty challenging for the State.

Didn't Zimmerman assert that he felt or thought Trayvon was reaching for his gun and that they were not directly struggling with hands for the gun on the gun? Why would Trayvon's lack of DNA on the gun refute Self Defense?

Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman delivering the beat down apparently, so lack of wounds on his person seems reasonable.

by Guest Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:34 am

justanopinion wrote:lol @DebFrmHell I guess what I am really trying to say is that no one's testimony/witness account is going to be accurate. It is unfortunately going to have to be woven like a sweater from all the evidence and testimony when this goes to trial. Hope it keeps the jury warm!

But I for one -- don't see GZ as a victim... I do see him as a arrogant (because of his vocal demeanor on the tape and his attempt to consider people stupid with the failed attempt at hiding the funds from the internet and his general body carriage in court) gun toting adult who wasn't able to take direction and however it all ended up was the direct and immanent cause of it. Had he kept his a$$ in his truck and wasn't so willing to make a judgement on a teen walking at 7 pm we would not even be having this discussion. JMOO

justanopinion - here lies the problem it seems imo for the State, there is so much reasonable doubt in this case already, weaving a case is going to be a challenge. The State wove an excellent case in Caylee's murder, they had the evidence and presented it but the jury didn't convict, they claimed they had doubts. For a conviction in this case, a juror would have to believe everything the State presents and totally reject everything the Defense says. IF a juror believes SOME of the State's evidence, and SOME of the Defense's evidence, then there is reasonable doubt. Conflicting testimony of some of the witnesses may muck it up further. During depositions, those witnesses are going to be vetted beforehand, ask if they have taken money for interviews, GZ has had to be accountable for his monies, so will all those in depositions in the Criminal case as well as any Civil proceedings. Does it matter? yes imo. Clearly the ANT's had motive and agendas clearly obvious to the State.

I read an interesting opinion of an accident re-constructionist for the Court's and he stated "on the evidence released and interviews given thus far, there may be no conviction, there is too much reasonable doubt." Of course, at anytime more evidence may come to light for either side. Both sets of parent's claimed it "was their child screaming for help but if GZ was on the bottom, why would Trayvon be screaming for help as it appears he was kicking GZ's butt? It doesn't make sense.

Opinions of GZ staying in the truck are not at issue in the verdict in this case imo as it was not illegal to get out as the Defense will state repeatedly, the issue is if the State can get a conviction on the evidence, that remains to be seen and remains widely debated across the web. Since Jeff Ashton is going to be taking office, I wonder if he offers any advice to BDLR from anything he learned in KC's case? Since even Jeff Ashton conceded that KC's case was "overcharged, it should have never been a death penalty case," I have to wonder if Ashton is going to see this case too as overcharged and the problems that brings to the case?

by justanopinion Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:50 am

art tart wrote:
justanopinion wrote:lol @DebFrmHell I guess what I am really trying to say is that no one's testimony/witness account is going to be accurate. It is unfortunately going to have to be woven like a sweater from all the evidence and testimony when this goes to trial. Hope it keeps the jury warm!

But I for one -- don't see GZ as a victim... I do see him as a arrogant (because of his vocal demeanor on the tape and his attempt to consider people stupid with the failed attempt at hiding the funds from the internet and his general body carriage in court) gun toting adult who wasn't able to take direction and however it all ended up was the direct and immanent cause of it. Had he kept his a$$ in his truck and wasn't so willing to make a judgement on a teen walking at 7 pm we would not even be having this discussion. JMOO

justanopinion - here lies the problem it seems imo for the State, there is so much reasonable doubt in this case already, weaving a case is going to be a challenge. The State wove an excellent case in Caylee's murder, they had the evidence and presented it but the jury didn't convict, they claimed they had doubts. For a conviction in this case, a juror would have to believe everything the State presents and totally reject everything the Defense says. IF a juror believes SOME of the State's evidence, and SOME of the Defense's evidence, then there is reasonable doubt. Conflicting testimony of some of the witnesses may muck it up further. During depositions, those witnesses are going to be vetted beforehand, ask if they have taken money for interviews, GZ has had to be accountable for his monies, so will all those in depositions in the Criminal case as well as any Civil proceedings. Does it matter? yes imo. Clearly the ANT's had motive and agendas clearly obvious to the State.

I read an interesting opinion of an accident re-constructionist for the Court's and he stated "on the evidence released and interviews given thus far, there may be no conviction, there is too much reasonable doubt." Of course, at anytime more evidence may come to light for either side. Both sets of parent's claimed it "was their child screaming for help but if GZ was on the bottom, why would Trayvon be screaming for help as it appears he was kicking GZ's butt? It doesn't make sense.

Opinions of GZ staying in the truck are not at issue in the verdict in this case imo as it was not illegal to get out as the Defense will state repeatedly, the issue is if the State can get a conviction on the evidence, that remains to be seen and remains widely debated across the web. Since Jeff Ashton is going to be taking office, I wonder if he offers any advice to BDLR from anything he learned in KC's case? Since even Jeff Ashton conceded that KC's case was "overcharged, it should have never been a death penalty case," I have to wonder if Ashton is going to see this case too as overcharged and the problems that brings to the case?

I understand what you are saying about the charges being possibly excessive. I think that my gut reaction to this case is that I can put myself into TM's shoes with some of the places and things I have done in my life. And wearing TM's shoes I don't envision myself being shot to death. I cannot put myself into GZ's shoes. I do not believe his words or the way he expressed himself on his walk through of what happened. It is not believable that he was in fear of his life. When people are re-enacting an event that was as traumatic as this event should have been... I can see details being distorted... but gut reaction and emotional perspective is not distorted (he never shows any sign of distress when he is telling his version of TM beating him to almost death or stress/anxiety about TM reaching for the gun or for that matter any remorse for having taken a human beings life) ... GZ does not show any signs other than he is telling a story. GZ on his walk through appears as though he is calm, telling his story with the expectation that it is only a "formality" I do not think that GZ at that time thought that this was a "big deal". IT IS A BIG DEAL ... SOMEONE IS DEAD!! But IMOO GZ appeared to be just a bit cavalier about it! I am not certain what the charges should be... but I am certain that GZ should not get a walk. It was not in my opinion self defence... and it was not SYG. JMOO

by DebFrmHell Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:29 pm

justanopinion wrote:lol @DebFrmHell I guess what I am really trying to say is that no one's testimony/witness account is going to be accurate. It is unfortunately going to have to be woven like a sweater from all the evidence and testimony when this goes to trial. Hope it keeps the jury warm!

But I for one -- don't see GZ as a victim... I do see him as a arrogant (because of his vocal demeanor on the tape and his attempt to consider people stupid with the failed attempt at hiding the funds from the internet and his general body carriage in court) gun toting adult who wasn't able to take direction and however it all ended up was the direct and immanent cause of it. Had he kept his a$$ in his truck and wasn't so willing to make a judgement on a teen walking at 7 pm we would not even be having this discussion. JMOO

I totally agree with you somewhat as to Zimmerman and his demeanor. But given the circumstances he has found himself in, I can't say that I blame him a lot. It would make me cranky, too. I don't know that "arrogant" is the word so much as hardened.

He believes he is innocent. He didn't ask for a lawyer and agreed to being questioned by Serino and Singleton. He agreed to that CVSA. He does have evidence that supports his story.

In return he got branded as a person he is not.

And the getting out of the truck thing is just a meme, IMO. It has no basis in legalities.

If Martin hadn't been suspended from school, he wouldn't have been at the Retreat At Twin Lakes.
If there weren't crimes being committed at the RTL, Zimmerman wouldn't have been suspicious of someone he didn't recognize looking at houses.
If Martin hadn't noticed Zimmerman looking at him while on the phone, he wouldn't have become afraid of a "scary, white guy."
If Zimmerman hadn't gotten out of his truck, there would have been no altercation.

If the sun had not come up on Sun. Feb. 26,2012 it would not have become nightfall.

We can "if" for days, it is pointless. It doesn't change the outcome. None of the above are illegal actions by either individuals.

The facts remains that every action taken by these two individuals seemed to confirm the suspicions of the other. The more actions taken the more suspicious and so on until the final verbal altercation that progressed to a fight that ended with a gunshot.

IMO, the crime begins at the "T" and ends some 28ft south. It is not how we interpret the evidence, it is how the judge does it in the Immunity Hearing or how a jury does it in the event of a trial.

by Tamta Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:32 pm

justanopinion wrote:
art tart wrote:

justanopinion - here lies the problem it seems imo for the State, there is so much reasonable doubt in this case already, weaving a case is going to be a challenge. The State wove an excellent case in Caylee's murder, they had the evidence and presented it but the jury didn't convict, they claimed they had doubts. For a conviction in this case, a juror would have to believe everything the State presents and totally reject everything the Defense says. IF a juror believes SOME of the State's evidence, and SOME of the Defense's evidence, then there is reasonable doubt. Conflicting testimony of some of the witnesses may muck it up further. During depositions, those witnesses are going to be vetted beforehand, ask if they have taken money for interviews, GZ has had to be accountable for his monies, so will all those in depositions in the Criminal case as well as any Civil proceedings. Does it matter? yes imo. Clearly the ANT's had motive and agendas clearly obvious to the State.

I read an interesting opinion of an accident re-constructionist for the Court's and he stated "on the evidence released and interviews given thus far, there may be no conviction, there is too much reasonable doubt." Of course, at anytime more evidence may come to light for either side. Both sets of parent's claimed it "was their child screaming for help but if GZ was on the bottom, why would Trayvon be screaming for help as it appears he was kicking GZ's butt? It doesn't make sense.

Opinions of GZ staying in the truck are not at issue in the verdict in this case imo as it was not illegal to get out as the Defense will state repeatedly, the issue is if the State can get a conviction on the evidence, that remains to be seen and remains widely debated across the web. Since Jeff Ashton is going to be taking office, I wonder if he offers any advice to BDLR from anything he learned in KC's case? Since even Jeff Ashton conceded that KC's case was "overcharged, it should have never been a death penalty case," I have to wonder if Ashton is going to see this case too as overcharged and the problems that brings to the case?

I understand what you are saying about the charges being possibly excessive. I think that my gut reaction to this case is that I can put myself into TM's shoes with some of the places and things I have done in my life. And wearing TM's shoes I don't envision myself being shot to death. I cannot put myself into GZ's shoes. I do not believe his words or the way he expressed himself on his walk through of what happened. It is not believable that he was in fear of his life. When people are re-enacting an event that was as traumatic as this event should have been... I can see details being distorted... but gut reaction and emotional perspective is not distorted (he never shows any sign of distress when he is telling his version of TM beating him to almost death or stress/anxiety about TM reaching for the gun or for that matter any remorse for having taken a human beings life) ... GZ does not show any signs other than he is telling a story. GZ on his walk through appears as though he is calm, telling his story with the expectation that it is only a "formality" I do not think that GZ at that time thought that this was a "big deal". IT IS A BIG DEAL ... SOMEONE IS DEAD!! But IMOO GZ appeared to be just a bit cavalier about it! I am not certain what the charges should be... but I am certain that GZ should not get a walk. It was not in my opinion self defence... and it was not SYG. JMOO

GZ's claim of fear is during the fight NOT in his vehicle.

The notion that Zimmerman is not believable because his police interviews do not 'match' with 100% precision to the NEN call is neither fair nor realistic, as research on witness memory will inform. Investigators seek accuracy, not precision, just like scientists. Just because he did not expect that the events that happened were going to be of such extreme importance that he had to remember them with astonishing precision as they were happening, like those who 'oppose' his claim or are simply just against him for subjective reasons, makes no sense and is unfair.

I might add that Tracy Martin is not a shining example of consistency either, but that is not taken too well when it gets pointed out because we are not supposed to hold both sides to the same standard of fairness it seems.

Zimmerman remembers a collection of events, perhaps mixed, that occurred at the time of the NEN call that when we put it together it matches reasonably well the NEN tape, and that is just what SPD found and the Prosecutor and that is why they did not charge him with ANYTHING. Nitpicking may be a 'bad cop' interrogation method but it does not prove, or convict, people of murder it does however seem to legitimize antagonism towards the defendant.

Who says this was not traumatic for Zimmerman? Just because he survived and unfortunately someone else did not, we are supposed to conclude that it was just another day in the life of Zimmerman?

WHat was he supposed to do?
Let someone beat him to death or grab his gun and shoot him simply because he was older than that person?
Really.

FACT: He asked someone for help and that person did not step in and help remove Trayvon off of him, the witness went inside to call police and did not come back out to break up the fight.

Trayvon was on top of him and he could not get him off or stop the beating and the person he asked for help did not help stop the assault either.

Getting out of the vehicle is not and will not be a factor before the judge because there is no legal theory that allows for it so I think State's supporters could at this point move on from that and bring to the discussion a focus on the evidence that may disprove self defense at the time of the fight between these individuals or the moments directly before it.

I do not mind people being unable to empathize with Zimmerman, but I do mind the lack of fairmindedness, which is becoming rampant in blogs focusing on this case , as to the standards by which the individuals involved in this case are held.

I can not connect that to claims for justice.
I can connect that to confirmation bias though.

by Guest Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:34 pm

justanopinion - I agree, anyone could have been Trayvon at his age walking to the store but that is where my life experience at his age ended. I had absolutely never been in trouble, of any kind, especially at school and never been suspended, it certainly doesn't make Trayvon guilty of anything except to his school, but my life experiences and values were different at 17.

You are right, not everyone would have seen themselves as GZ having a gun and permit for it due to his life experiences. Due to GZ's criminal justice background might be why he remained so calm as being hysterical too can be unbelievable just as we continually see in missing children cases, many of those hysterical parent's have indeed murdered their children. I am certainly not making excuses for any of GZ's interviews, imo, we have seen first hand in KC's case that those interviews don't make any difference to some juror's, clearly KC didn't think Caylee's supposed "abduction/murder" was any big deal. who knows? Since we are not potential candidates for a jury, I like to put myself in the place of a juror in my mind and continue to ask? Do I believe that?" Did the State prove it? It was a really BIG DEAL imo that Caylee was murdered, and a BIGGER DEAL that there is never going to be justice, NEVER!

It seems for all the energy exhausted on GZ very few in the State of Fla. have moved to do much about the law that legally permitted GZ to carry his gun NOR more narrowly define SYG. The definition is debated endlessly, imo, it is too nebulous, it can be changed if IT MATTERED to many complaining to take action and do something n the State of Fla. Of course the Politicians may ramp up their opinions closer to trial to get media attention or election time but they aren't doing anything now effectively imo.

I don't know what GZ's punishment should be but imo, the case has been overcharged based on everything I have read and the evidence I have seen but it is too late to change that now. I will accept the verdict of those 12 chosen juror's in this case, unfortunately, it's all we can do, they aren't interested in our opinions.

I do have concern for BDLR, his lack of prep in bringing up Baez and wrong information puts him under the microscope for being ill prepared in the future, can he be believed or are his facts corrrect? For all the resources the State has, a mistake during his argument about Beaz now has the fact checker's checking everything he says, something he could have avoided being prepared.

by justanopinion Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:24 pm

Tamta I do believe that I am being fair minded. I am trained to read between the lines of what someone is saying and get to the issues. I am not comparing what GZ is saying for detail I am comparing his outward behaviour or bearing in his initial call to LE and then his outward behavior or bearing when he is re-telling his version of what occurred. In intonation and pace they are similar. GZ is not portraying any sign of anxiety or stress. Does that make him guilty of murder in his mind... the answer is no. But just because he does not believe it to be murder does not make that the case. All I have said is that people remember things with their own perspective... it is not always or necessarily the facts. Do others with the same facts but with a different perspective see it as murder ... most likely so ... or this would not be the hotly discussed topic it is.

There is a saying that is true... "History is told by the Victors". This case is not any different. GZ in his mind won..he was victorious... and he will tell the history of that event with his perspective only. TM is not here to refute it.. and there really is no one that is distanced (who is not directly or indirectly involved with GZ or TM or does not have their own agenda) from this case who was a witness to the complete and total interaction of these two individuals. I will trust that both sides (State and Defence) will do the best to state their perspective of the events of that night and I will accept that any jury will do their best to interpret and be comfortable with the decision they come to. I may not like the outcome... I may not trust the "system" .... but in the end I will be able to look in the mirror and know that I have at least attempted to be fair minded and look at the evidence that has been given as fact.

by justanopinion Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:40 pm

art tart wrote:justanopinion - I agree, anyone could have been Trayvon at his age walking to the store but that is where my life experience at his age ended. I had absolutely never been in trouble, of any kind, especially at school and never been suspended, it certainly doesn't make Trayvon guilty of anything except to his school, but my life experiences and values were different at 17.

You are right, not everyone would have seen themselves as GZ having a gun and permit for it due to his life experiences. Due to GZ's criminal justice background might be why he remained so calm as being hysterical too can be unbelievable just as we continually see in missing children cases, many of those hysterical parent's have indeed murdered their children. I am certainly not making excuses for any of GZ's interviews, imo, we have seen first hand in KC's case that those interviews don't make any difference to some juror's, clearly KC didn't think Caylee's supposed "abduction/murder" was any big deal. who knows? Since we are not potential candidates for a jury, I like to put myself in the place of a juror in my mind and continue to ask? Do I believe that?" Did the State prove it? It was a really BIG DEAL imo that Caylee was murdered, and a BIGGER DEAL that there is never going to be justice, NEVER!

It seems for all the energy exhausted on GZ very few in the State of Fla. have moved to do much about the law that legally permitted GZ to carry his gun NOR more narrowly define SYG. The definition is debated endlessly, imo, it is too nebulous, it can be changed if IT MATTERED to many complaining to take action and do something n the State of Fla. Of course the Politicians may ramp up their opinions closer to trial to get media attention or election time but they aren't doing anything now effectively imo.

I don't know what GZ's punishment should be but imo, the case has been overcharged based on everything I have read and the evidence I have seen but it is too late to change that now. I will accept the verdict of those 12 chosen juror's in this case, unfortunately, it's all we can do, they aren't interested in our opinions.

I do have concern for BDLR, his lack of prep in bringing up Baez and wrong information puts him under the microscope for being ill prepared in the future, can he be believed or are his facts corrrect? For all the resources the State has, a mistake during his argument about Beaz now has the fact checker's checking everything he says, something he could have avoided being prepared.

Art Tart there are so many things that just are not acceptable and yet we are powerless to do anything legal about them.. It was a really BIG DEAL imo that Caylee was murdered, and a BIGGER DEAL that there is never going to be justice, NEVER!
this is not acceptable ... and yet somehow we are supposed to make sense of it ..... it is not logical... Caylee and the many others should have justice... but justice is not perfect; and the premise of this system is flawed at best. I really don't know how to accept or understand that decision... but I will hold it up as an example of when things happen that I don't agree with, where the system failed, and where justice was not served. And reality tells me that there will be many more times where I will feel the same way.. and be disappointed/disgusted with those that I share this earth with.

by Freckles Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:53 pm

Re the circling of the car statement:
IIRC, that was in a written report GZ filed.
Not sure which report.

Could someone (again) share the audio of the dispatch call with the knocking sound?

What Dee Dee has to contribute is only what she heard and could recall. Despite TM stating he was not going to run, as Dee Dee had suggested he do, we have no indication TM ran, walked or even "skipped", as GZ had indicated.

Deb-
You are correct in that I will not accept a biased, self-serving statement from GZ OR anyone else UNLESS there is confirmation. Since TM is dead, all statements from GZ must be carefully weighed; they are all based upon GZ' hearsay without confirmation. (Even a witness stated TWO shots were heard and yet only one was apparently fired from the recovered gun. Was there a second shot? If so, where did it hit? Was it recovered or even looked for? If not, the credibility is questionable.)

I value, first, the statements that can be confirmed by non-interested parties. I value the physical evidence and its location as it helps to explain the incident.

Not all witnesses are credible. While I do not doubt the intent of most of the witnesses, when adrenalin runs and fear or surprise is encountered, we have a tendency to notice specific details and ignore other details. Perfectly normal. And yet, missing details could be crucial to understanding what transpired. Memory also plays a factor in correctly recalling. This is why corroboration is essential. And the best corroboration is from "non-interested" parties for they have no need to present story lines benefiting anyone.

by justanopinion Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:03 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7qEcD8R-8

this is the 911 call I think this is an accurate one!

by Freckles Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:11 pm

Deb wrote: " If Martin hadn't been suspended from school, he wouldn't have been at the Retreat At Twin Lakes."

So it is the victim's fault for being at the location where he was murdered? And it is his fault for being suspended from school? Is that what you are saying?

IMO, the suspension has NOTHING to do with TM being in this location. For all we know, the father had planned to take his son with him that day anyway. We have seen no evidence to indicate WHY TM was visiting, have we?

Even IF TM had been suspended rightfully from school, what would that info have to do with this case? Are you stating suspended students "always are troublesome and get what they deserve"? That TM was in the WRONG for visiting, for going to a store, for walking down a street?

When my children were younger, we used to go for evening walks. Summertime when school was not in session. Find new neighborhoods and just walk. Is that so wrong to do? Sometimes we took rainy day walks or winter walks. And we were known to sing Christmas carols terribly off-key and in the evening. Grab up the kids friends, have a meal, and make the rounds. And it was cold and dark and the kids were not in school session. Are you saying this is important TM was walking, it was night, school was not in session, it was not his own neighborhood? I don't get your point, Deb. Sorry.

by Freckles Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:12 pm

justanopinion wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7qEcD8R-8

this is the 911 call I think this is an accurate one!

Thanks. Will share with a friend and see what he thinks the sounds might be.

by justanopinion Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:26 pm

I am not endorsing this video in any way... just thought it was worth the watch! The man in the video is very animated and is convinced that what he is describing is fact... I am sure that some of us will agree and some of us will disagree..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae9bv-ZgsDk&feature=related

by Guest Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:36 pm

justanopinion - I agree that our system is flawed and we are destined to being disappointed again at some point in other trials. I saw very little compassion or sympathy for Caylee, especially from the jury or Defense. GA wasn't even on trial NOR was there one shred of evidence he was a sexual deviant or Caylee drowned, but the Jury believed this because Baez said it, some juror's really liked Baez and his mannerism, his style. I thought Ashton was passionate, some juror's didn't like his aggressiveness. imo, ONLY the evidence matters but I was wrong, everything matters in murder cases as we all observed, just as everything matters in this case.

Jurors aren't burdened by the blogs or should they be contaminated by the arguments for/against/questioning of information before they sit on the jury, at least they are not supposed to. Trayvon was 17 yrs old BUT if the roles had been reversed, Trayvon would be charged as an adult, not as a teenager. The evidence is at the juries discretion as to interpretation and the weight they attach to the facts presented and if they believe any or some or all of the witnesses.

I am heartsick that someone 17 yrs. old has lost their life but I am open to all information that led to his death and the circumstances surrounding it.

by justanopinion Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:21 pm

I am trying to look at this from all possible angles..

I do think that there is a total miscarriage of Justice in this case as well as the many others we have followed.

Some things that bother me... is that GZ never had toxicology done that night...

and the fight scenario does not work for me.. just play wrestling with my hubby (not fighting for my life) I have ended up and so did he with DNA under our nails. Quite by accident and neither of us ended up with the wounds GZ had... so I don't understand...

I walk away from this lots of times to see if distance will give me clarity but I still come back to things that don't add up.. I really hope that the DA has more than we do..

even the witness who says he saw GZ on the bottom.. does not see the beginning of the "brawl" it still could have been that GZ was the aggressor first and TM was fighting for his life... and when overpowered by the "teen" among other things GZ called TM he shot him. So much doubt... but is it reasonable to believe all that GZ says..?? is it reasonable to think that GZ is a victim??? Is it reasonable to think that this was self defence???

What is reasonable is that all of the evidence is viewed fairly and equally and give the preponderance of the evidence the weight that should be assigned to it and let that speak for itself.

GZ was certainly not at deaths door and needing to use deadly force... imo

My yardstick... what would have to be the circumstances that I would have to be in ... as a reasonable person ... for me to take the life of another? (I am a hunter so it is not about killing something.. it is about the respect that I have for the life of another human being.) Where do you line up on my yardstick?

by DebFrmHell Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:39 pm

Freckles wrote:Deb wrote: " If Martin hadn't been suspended from school, he wouldn't have been at the Retreat At Twin Lakes."

So it is the victim's fault for being at the location where he was murdered? And it is his fault for being suspended from school? Is that what you are saying?

IMO, the suspension has NOTHING to do with TM being in this location. For all we know, the father had planned to take his son with him that day anyway. We have seen no evidence to indicate WHY TM was visiting, have we?

Even IF TM had been suspended rightfully from school, what would that info have to do with this case? Are you stating suspended students "always are troublesome and get what they deserve"? That TM was in the WRONG for visiting, for going to a store, for walking down a street?

When my children were younger, we used to go for evening walks. Summertime when school was not in session. Find new neighborhoods and just walk. Is that so wrong to do? Sometimes we took rainy day walks or winter walks. And we were known to sing Christmas carols terribly off-key and in the evening. Grab up the kids friends, have a meal, and make the rounds. And it was cold and dark and the kids were not in school session. Are you saying this is important TM was walking, it was night, school was not in session, it was not his own neighborhood? I don't get your point, Deb. Sorry.

Did you even read the rest of what I wrote? it was all about the "If's" not blaming any victim. It started with If Zimmerman had stayed in his truck meme...how far back does a person want to go with the "ifs". I even added the sunrise thing.

Gees. Try reading it again.

by angiefly2 Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:38 pm

Tamta wrote:
justanopinion wrote:

I understand what you are saying about the charges being possibly excessive. I think that my gut reaction to this case is that I can put myself into TM's shoes with some of the places and things I have done in my life. And wearing TM's shoes I don't envision myself being shot to death. I cannot put myself into GZ's shoes. I do not believe his words or the way he expressed himself on his walk through of what happened. It is not believable that he was in fear of his life. When people are re-enacting an event that was as traumatic as this event should have been... I can see details being distorted... but gut reaction and emotional perspective is not distorted (he never shows any sign of distress when he is telling his version of TM beating him to almost death or stress/anxiety about TM reaching for the gun or for that matter any remorse for having taken a human beings life) ... GZ does not show any signs other than he is telling a story. GZ on his walk through appears as though he is calm, telling his story with the expectation that it is only a "formality" I do not think that GZ at that time thought that this was a "big deal". IT IS A BIG DEAL ... SOMEONE IS DEAD!! But IMOO GZ appeared to be just a bit cavalier about it! I am not certain what the charges should be... but I am certain that GZ should not get a walk. It was not in my opinion self defence... and it was not SYG. JMOO

GZ's claim of fear is during the fight NOT in his vehicle.

The notion that Zimmerman is not believable because his police interviews do not 'match' with 100% precision to the NEN call is neither fair nor realistic, as research on witness memory will inform. Investigators seek accuracy, not precision, just like scientists. Just because he did not expect that the events that happened were going to be of such extreme importance that he had to remember them with astonishing precision as they were happening, like those who 'oppose' his claim or are simply just against him for subjective reasons, makes no sense and is unfair.

I might add that Tracy Martin is not a shining example of consistency either, but that is not taken too well when it gets pointed out because we are not supposed to hold both sides to the same standard of fairness it seems.

Zimmerman remembers a collection of events, perhaps mixed, that occurred at the time of the NEN call that when we put it together it matches reasonably well the NEN tape, and that is just what SPD found and the Prosecutor and that is why they did not charge him with ANYTHING. Nitpicking may be a 'bad cop' interrogation method but it does not prove, or convict, people of murder it does however seem to legitimize antagonism towards the defendant.

Who says this was not traumatic for Zimmerman? Just because he survived and unfortunately someone else did not, we are supposed to conclude that it was just another day in the life of Zimmerman?

WHat was he supposed to do?
Let someone beat him to death or grab his gun and shoot him simply because he was older than that person?
Really.

FACT: He asked someone for help and that person did not step in and help remove Trayvon off of him, the witness went inside to call police and did not come back out to break up the fight.

Trayvon was on top of him and he could not get him off or stop the beating and the person he asked for help did not help stop the assault either.

Getting out of the vehicle is not and will not be a factor before the judge because there is no legal theory that allows for it so I think State's supporters could at this point move on from that and bring to the discussion a focus on the evidence that may disprove self defense at the time of the fight between these individuals or the moments directly before it.

I do not mind people being unable to empathize with Zimmerman, but I do mind the lack of fairmindedness, which is becoming rampant in blogs focusing on this case , as to the standards by which the individuals involved in this case are held.

I can not connect that to claims for justice.
I can connect that to confirmation bias though.

BBM

How about GZ could have driven away instead of profiling, then getting out of his car (against the advice of the dispatcher) etc... I highly doubt TM posed any threat to GZ while he was in his car. It's really simple to me. I wouldn't get out of my car to follow someone who I just called the NEN about... just to make sure they "didn't get away" GZ was stupid to do what he did that night, all of it! and if anyone of you would have done what he did that night well???

by DebFrmHell Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:03 pm

art tart wrote:
justanopinion wrote:lol @DebFrmHell I guess what I am really trying to say is that no one's testimony/witness account is going to be accurate. It is unfortunately going to have to be woven like a sweater from all the evidence and testimony when this goes to trial. Hope it keeps the jury warm!

But I for one -- don't see GZ as a victim... I do see him as a arrogant (because of his vocal demeanor on the tape and his attempt to consider people stupid with the failed attempt at hiding the funds from the internet and his general body carriage in court) gun toting adult who wasn't able to take direction and however it all ended up was the direct and immanent cause of it. Had he kept his a$$ in his truck and wasn't so willing to make a judgement on a teen walking at 7 pm we would not even be having this discussion. JMOO

justanopinion - here lies the problem it seems imo for the State, there is so much reasonable doubt in this case already, weaving a case is going to be a challenge. The State wove an excellent case in Caylee's murder, they had the evidence and presented it but the jury didn't convict, they claimed they had doubts. For a conviction in this case, a juror would have to believe everything the State presents and totally reject everything the Defense says. IF a juror believes SOME of the State's evidence, and SOME of the Defense's evidence, then there is reasonable doubt. Conflicting testimony of some of the witnesses may muck it up further. During depositions, those witnesses are going to be vetted beforehand, ask if they have taken money for interviews, GZ has had to be accountable for his monies, so will all those in depositions in the Criminal case as well as any Civil proceedings. Does it matter? yes imo. Clearly the ANT's had motive and agendas clearly obvious to the State.

I read an interesting opinion of an accident re-constructionist for the Court's and he stated "on the evidence released and interviews given thus far, there may be no conviction, there is too much reasonable doubt." Of course, at anytime more evidence may come to light for either side. Both sets of parent's claimed it "was their child screaming for help but if GZ was on the bottom, why would Trayvon be screaming for help as it appears he was kicking GZ's butt? It doesn't make sense.

Opinions of GZ staying in the truck are not at issue in the verdict in this case imo as it was not illegal to get out as the Defense will state repeatedly, the issue is if the State can get a conviction on the evidence, that remains to be seen and remains widely debated across the web. Since Jeff Ashton is going to be taking office, I wonder if he offers any advice to BDLR from anything he learned in KC's case? Since even Jeff Ashton conceded that KC's case was "overcharged, it should have never been a death penalty case," I have to wonder if Ashton is going to see this case too as overcharged and the problems that brings to the case?

The accident reconstructionist guy (I forget his name)has a book out. I haven't read it. Some people have and despite a few knocks about him being an opportunist or a bottom feeder, they didn't say much damning about the science behind his working theory. These people would have been all over any error in a heartbeat.

I no longer think this is overcharged. I thought for months that it should have been a provable manslaughter case. Now, I don't think it should have been charged at all.

Jeff Ashton is an elected State Attorney. He will be working in the Ninth Judicial Court. Zimmerman's case is in the Eighteenth. I don't know that he will have that much contact with Bernie de la Rionda.

BdlR could use some advice agree with that! just for the then novel approach to social media and how it was used in the Anthony case.

by Puzzler Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:59 pm

Great posts - everyone!

IMO there is a lot of places for blame on both sides and because the nearest thing there is to a witness is Dee Dee's statement and the person that GZ asked to help him (that went inside and called 911)...and what they each said...is "reasonable doubt".

by Guest Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:33 pm

Puzzler wrote:Great posts - everyone!

IMO there is a lot of places for blame on both sides and because the nearest thing there is to a witness is Dee Dee's statement and the person that GZ asked to help him (that went inside and called 911)...and what they each said...is "reasonable doubt".

Puzzler -well said and to the point.

by KZ Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:01 am

I agree strongly that the case is overcharged. But that is exactly why Angela Corey was brought in-- one of the most controversial prosecutors in the entire country-- well known for her vindictive prosecutions and overcharging. She was brought on to the case as a "show of force" to quell the race riots that were brewing. She HAD to overcharge the case. There was no other option for her. And she was MORE than happy to do it, imo. She is not an ethical prosecutor, imo. She is a massively inflated ego on a power trip.

I am immensely bothered that she chose not to bring "her" charges and evidence to a grand jury. AND-- the original LE-- Sanford PD, and the prosecutor there-- no one questions WTH happened with their original handling of the situation.

by DebFrmHell Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:11 am

Okay. Now that I had a chance to look around at all the places I have been, the guy I am talking about is one Mark Knox and he is not just an accident reconstructionist. Embarassed

He has his hand in several different categories.

Here is his Bio and he was on JVM iscussing the first Doc Dump when it came out.

Knox & Associates President and Chief Forensic Consultant Michael A. Knox is board certified as a crime scene reconstructionist through the International Association for Identification.

http://www.knoxforensics.com/staff.php

He toots his own horn nicely. Out of Jacksonville. Has a couple of degrees. I haven't read up on the Int'l Association for Indentification. I haven't googled anything about him or the organizations he belongs to yet. There are quite a few.

He could be the crime scene equivalent to Tom Owens for all I know. LOL!

by DebFrmHell Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:21 am

KZ wrote:I agree strongly that the case is overcharged. But that is exactly why Angela Corey was brought in-- one of the most controversial prosecutors in the entire country-- well known for her vindictive prosecutions and overcharging. She was brought on to the case as a "show of force" to quell the race riots that were brewing. She HAD to overcharge the case. There was no other option for her. And she was MORE than happy to do it, imo. She is not an ethical prosecutor, imo. She is a massively inflated ego on a power trip.

I am immensely bothered that she chose not to bring "her" charges and evidence to a grand jury. AND-- the original LE-- Sanford PD, and the prosecutor there-- no one questions WTH happened with their original handling of the situation.

The one thing I have been noticing as I have been rebrowsing thru the 18th Media Advisory site is that everything coming from the courts of late show copies to
Mark O'Mara, Don West, John Guy and Bernie de la Rionda.

http://www.flcourts18.org/presspublic.html

I am not seeing Corey's name attached anymore. It makes me wonder if she if trying to move ungracefully away from this case. A little "one step removed" from any fallout? I don't see how she can avoid it since she is the boss of Bernie and John but I guess she can say she wasn't informed but stands behind her staff...something to that effect.

by Alessandra_Deux Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:37 am

Grand Jury proceedings are conducted in secrecy, the Grand Jury that was going to convene on April 10 to determine if Zimmerman could have been charged with murder was empaneled by Norman Wolfinger, he was removed from the case.

But Sanford, Fla., Investigator Chris Serino was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman because the state attorney's office headed by Norman Wolfinger determined there wasn't enough evidence to lead to a conviction, the sources told ABC News.

It was Wolfinger who finally agreed last week to convene the grand jury before Florida Gov. Rick Scott took him off the case and appointed Corey, who is the state attorney for Duval, Nassau and Clay counties.

On March 22 state attorney Norm Wolfinger stepped down from his role as prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case. Wolfinger relinquished his post after meeting with Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi. He said it was necessary for him to step aside to preserve “the integrity of this investigation,” adding he wanted to avoid “the appearance of a conflict of interest.” He did not explain why his continued involvement would damage the integrity of the case or explain the potential conflict he was seeking to avoid. [Orlando Sentinel]

Special prosecutor Angela Corey has not indicated when she will decide whether to file charges against Zimmerman. But on Tuesday, she said she is preparing to release new information on the investigation and will hold a news conference within the next three days.

Corey, assigned to oversee the investigation, announced Monday that she would not present the controversial shooting case to a grand jury. A grand jury set to convene Tuesday was canceled. [CNN Justice]

by Guest Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:55 am

KZ wrote:I agree strongly that the case is overcharged. But that is exactly why Angela Corey was brought in-- one of the most controversial prosecutors in the entire country-- well known for her vindictive prosecutions and overcharging. She was brought on to the case as a "show of force" to quell the race riots that were brewing. She HAD to overcharge the case. There was no other option for her. And she was MORE than happy to do it, imo. She is not an ethical prosecutor, imo. She is a massively inflated ego on a power trip.

I am immensely bothered that she chose not to bring "her" charges and evidence to a grand jury. AND-- the original LE-- Sanford PD, and the prosecutor there-- no one questions WTH happened with their original handling of the situation.

KZ - Apparently some have had time to re-evaluate the first investigation since the case began, I read this article yesterday from a talk show in July.

a snip:
The guests stressed that the Sanford Police Department had done a thorough investigation into Zimmerman’s shooting of Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder in the teen’s death. Zimmerman says he was acting in self-defense.

“The more information that comes out, the better this investigation looks,” WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer told moderator Greg Warmoth.

The issue of who was crying for help will be “huge,” Sheaffer said. “The defense is certainly going to want to show it was George Zimmerman.” But Sheaffer added that Martin’s father has identified the voice as his son’s.

“If Trayvon Martin is yelling for help, obviously Zimmerman must have been the aggressor,” Sheaffer said. “If George Zimmerman was yelling for help, then George Zimmerman’s recitation of what happened is the one .. the evidence would be more consistent with.”

Jones cited the EMT who treated Zimmerman at the scene who said that 45 percent of Zimmerman’s head and face were covered in blood. “You couple that with the fact that he’s screaming for help … that may cause a jury to be more sympathetic to him,” Jones said.

Sheaffer predicted that Zimmerman’s stepping out of his vehicle wouldn’t matter ultimately. “Legal liability comes when you examine whether or not George Zimmerman either acted in self-defense or was acting under the stand your ground law at the moment the confrontation took place and the fatal shot was fired,” Sheaffer said.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2012/07/george-zimmerman-his-attorney-is-ultimate-professional.html

by DebFrmHell Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:40 pm

art tart wrote:
KZ wrote:I agree strongly that the case is overcharged. But that is exactly why Angela Corey was brought in-- one of the most controversial prosecutors in the entire country-- well known for her vindictive prosecutions and overcharging. She was brought on to the case as a "show of force" to quell the race riots that were brewing. She HAD to overcharge the case. There was no other option for her. And she was MORE than happy to do it, imo. She is not an ethical prosecutor, imo. She is a massively inflated ego on a power trip.

I am immensely bothered that she chose not to bring "her" charges and evidence to a grand jury. AND-- the original LE-- Sanford PD, and the prosecutor there-- no one questions WTH happened with their original handling of the situation.

KZ - Apparently some have had time to re-evaluate the first investigation since the case began, I read this article yesterday from a talk show in July.

a snip:
The guests stressed that the Sanford Police Department had done a thorough investigation into Zimmerman’s shooting of Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder in the teen’s death. Zimmerman says he was acting in self-defense.

“The more information that comes out, the better this investigation looks,” WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer told moderator Greg Warmoth.

The issue of who was crying for help will be “huge,” Sheaffer said. “The defense is certainly going to want to show it was George Zimmerman.” But Sheaffer added that Martin’s father has identified the voice as his son’s.

“If Trayvon Martin is yelling for help, obviously Zimmerman must have been the aggressor,” Sheaffer said. “If George Zimmerman was yelling for help, then George Zimmerman’s recitation of what happened is the one .. the evidence would be more consistent with.”

Jones cited the EMT who treated Zimmerman at the scene who said that 45 percent of Zimmerman’s head and face were covered in blood. “You couple that with the fact that he’s screaming for help … that may cause a jury to be more sympathetic to him,” Jones said.

Sheaffer predicted that Zimmerman’s stepping out of his vehicle wouldn’t matter ultimately. “Legal liability comes when you examine whether or not George Zimmerman either acted in self-defense or was acting under the stand your ground law at the moment the confrontation took place and the fatal shot was fired,” Sheaffer said.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2012/07/george-zimmerman-his-attorney-is-ultimate-professional.html

This is back from 7/08/2012.

I was pleased that Daralene Jones was part of this. I thought she was just another Robles but I have been following her on Twitter and clicking on links about this case. I have revised my thinking. Regardless of what she may personally believe, it doesn't seem to crop up in her reporting.

by Guest Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:25 pm

DebFrmHell- .
I was pleased that Daralene Jones was part of this. I thought she was just another Robles but I have been following her on Twitter and clicking on links about this case. I have revised my thinking. Regardless of what she may personally believe, it doesn't seem to crop up in her reporting.

DebFrmHell - yes it is from July 2012 which I stated but KZ had me curious about the Sanford investigation and I hadnb't heard anything so I thought I'd check..

I haven't read everything in the case, I have done alot of reading but am still catching up. I goggled and this article came up, I am a big fan of Bill Sheaffer's, he did a lot of great commentary and analysis on KC's trial. There are probably a lot more current articles, I just saw his name and chose this article.

by Tamta Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:47 pm

Puzzler wrote:Great posts - everyone!

IMO there is a lot of places for blame on both sides and because the nearest thing there is to a witness is Dee Dee's statement and the person that GZ asked to help him (that went inside and called 911)...and what they each said...is "reasonable doubt".

and Witness 11...

by Freckles Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:12 pm

Freckles wrote:
justanopinion wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7qEcD8R-8

this is the 911 call I think this is an accurate one!
Thanks. Will share with a friend and see what he thinks the sounds might be.

Several sounds:

At first and periodically, @ every 3 seconds is the soft sound of window wipers;
At @ 49 secs: Soft "clicking" is the possible sound of loading the gun's magazine;
At @ 1:08 secs: Car alarm (seat belt removal/lights on/key in ignition?)
At @ 1:46 secs: Door latch/door opens
At @ 2:06 secs: Very, very soft chime
At @ 2:12 is a second chime, different tone
At @ 2:20:-- GZ begins to run; dispatch heard telling GZ he does not need to follow TM
At @ 2:46: Solid "click" is heard
At @ 2:50: Repetitive "clicking" heard; could this be shoes slapping on wet pavement?What about GZ "smacking" the side of his mag light?

Speculation: Racking a gun, loading a magazine, or magazine rattling in gun?
(This was demonstrated to me. Holding the gun upright and wobbling the gun, perhaps with a shaking hand?)

by Freckles Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:34 pm

Interrogation tape / head injury shots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI&feature=related

At 6:21- GZ states the first person who got there, GZ thought was a PD officer; he asked this person to call his wife for him; the person declined

At @ 25:45GZ begins the audio statement of seeing TM
-- GZ sees TM; TM appears to be looking around; GZ drove past him and GZ went to park near the clubhouse; TM walked past GZ' vehicle

At 27: 48- GZ says that at THIS point the guy walked around his "CAR"; the guy had his hand in his waistband; GZ had his windows up, on phone with dispatch;

At 28:43 - GZ said he got out of his "CAR"

At 28:19- GZ states dispatch asked for the address; GZ did not know because all the houses he was next to were the BACK of the houses (where there are no addresses)
*** If this were the case, then the addresses would be AWAY from the street side and down the courtyard; IF the addresses were NOT visible on street side, why would he use the "cut through" to obtain the street side faces of the house on the next main street? By now, I think it is apparent the street addresses for the homes were on the street side of buildings. There was no need for GZ to go through the "cut through" to obtain addresses for buildings on the OTHER side from where GZ was parked. (Why give an address for a building on the flip-side of where you are parked? Not likely a patrol car would go there when you were at a different location! Tight squeeze for the patrol unit on that "cut through"! Besides, GZ was to MEET them at the address. Did he intend to drive around to a different location than the one he last saw TM near? )

At 30:29- GZ said he hung up from talking with dispatch and put his phone away.
--- Phone was NOT in his hand at this point.

At @ 30:43 -- Observe his hand gestures. He stated he went to get his phone and GZ drops his hand to the side where he was carrying his gun; he does this several times in enactment for PD.

At 34: 12-- GZ asks witness if he was a cop; person said no; Witness said he was calling 911; GZ said he did not need witness to call 911; GZ got up and he "holstered" his weapon (this contradicts statements the gun was found on the ground);

Dee's tape:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVTM8sqz4k&feature=related

by Guest Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:15 pm

Zimmerman Gets FBI Files on Trayvon/phone records .

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/08/florida-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-evidence/1693113/

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-fbi-records-20121108,0,6077432.story

O'Mara announces that he will take depositions from the medical examiner who did the autopsy on Trayvon Martin, and a medical examiner investigator on Tuesday, Nov. 20. That will be in Daytona Beach.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/11/8/zimmerman_new_docume.html

by DebFrmHell Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:52 pm

art tart wrote:Zimmerman Gets FBI Files on Trayvon/phone records .

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/08/florida-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-evidence/1693113/

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-fbi-records-20121108,0,6077432.story

O'Mara announces that he will take depositions from the medical examiner who did the autopsy on Trayvon Martin, and a medical examiner investigator on Tuesday, Nov. 20. That will be in Daytona Beach.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/11/8/zimmerman_new_docume.html

7:31PM EST November 8. 2012 - Florida prosecutors in the Trayvon Martin murder case have turned over additional evidence to George Zimmerman's attorneys, including FBI reports, witness interviews and more cellphone records from the 17-year-old who was slain in February.

Well, gee. He didn't have to go get them from the FBI directly?

Does appear the Prosecution has been holding out a little...

by DebFrmHell Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:07 pm

The Ninth Discovery List link:

Kind of a long list

by Tamta Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:15 pm

thanks deb and art tart!

by Puzzler Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:35 am

Tamta wrote:thanks deb and art tart!

Ditto!

by KimmyK Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:41 am

Pretty Interesting Video Timeline...
"A Walk With Marinade Dave"

A video by LLMPapa & Marinade Dave
Lookout George they are on a mission!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7OYdx5Yaxo

by KimmyK Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:43 am

Timeline Continued...
"A Walk With Marinade Dave, Part Deux"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LquOHzPy0U

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