George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #1

Gizmo711 wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

Freckles wrote:CN-
If I was GZ and TM had the advantage over me, I would not have been calling, "Help me!" I would have had my gun in my hand as soon as I entered the dark walkway area; IF I had been suddenly set upon, I would have yelled, "Stop! Please stop! I have a gun and will shoot!"

Unlike what GZ reports,
I would not have been asking, "What are you doing here?" as I would already be in the "surprise" confrontation.

What is bad scripting is the reported comments of TM after GZ has shot him. The bullet instantly ended his life.There was no time left on the meter to call out some absurd comment about GZ "winning" pr whatever that goofy comment was.

You and I are on the same wave length - I believe GZ had his gun drawn at the time he went between those townhomes. And I do not believe the hollywood script that GZ gave for what Trayvon supposedly said. And I whole heartedly agree that instead of whining and crying that you hear in the tape, I would have been announcing I have my gun and about to use it. That's why I am sure it was not GZ crying for help - that was Trayvon. Now GZ may not have had the gun "in hand" at the time he took chase of Trayvon, and if he didn't, it had to be in his coat pocket or somewhere easily accessible...not in its holster. In fact, what is it they say that liars usually add a little truth to their story? Well, I would bet that where GZ states that he was reaching for his cellphone, he was really reaching for his weapon.

ETA: I worded that weird. I mean it doesn't make sense that the whining and crying that we hear on the tape would be GZ - he had the gun. And even if I were him I would have been yelling I have a gun....[/quote]

Exactly...Once someone sees a gun they will freeze. There would be no need to shoot it. It doesn't take a rocket scientists to know that you cannot outrun a bullit. Just the sight of a gun being pointed at you is enough. There would have been NO reason for Zimmerman to be screaming seeing as he was the one with the gun. And it doesn't make sense either, that the screaming stopped instantly upon the shot being fired. If it were Zimmerman screaming, he would have continued screaming if just for a second or two. JMO

Morning all!

You know what Gizmo? There is another subtle nuance in Zimmerman's Hollywood script as well. He said that the last words that Travon uttered were to the effect that "you got me". This struck me as odd because that kind of dying response would indicate that they knew each other before the encounter. I would think that Travon might more likely want to know who just shot me and why.

DebFrmHell wrote:MOM stated in the past that he would probably forego the SYG for standard self-defense, IIRC. He saw how GZ withered on the stand during the small cross in the bail hearing. Why on earth would he want that to happen when using the SYG changes the burden of proof to the defense rather than the prosecution?

Isn't there still an evidenciary hearing to be held yet? Before the possible SYG? He could ask for an outright dismissal of charges at that time.

Sorry, I forget the order for all of these hearing.

Ellejay, do you have a link to the order? I don't mean the dates because I don't think any hae been assigned thus far. I get confused.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:From Reality Chatter Latest News:

Trayvon Martin case: Has the media prematurely declared George Zimmerman's innocence?

By Joy-Ann Reid

8:02 AM on 05/22/2012


George Zimmerman in court (Getty Images)

Much of the media is now fixated on the pictures of injuries George Zimmerman sustained on the night he shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

A consensus appears to be building that those photos -- of scratches, abrasions and wounds to the back of Zimmerman's head -- bolster, Zimmerman's claims of self-defense. Some news outlets have gone so far as to ask whether second degree murder charges against Zimmerman should be dropped altogether, on the premise that. if the Miami teen struck the 28-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer, Zimmerman was justified in shooting to kill, under Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law.

But is that what the law says?

Legal experts say no.

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/media-jprematurely-declares-george-zimmerman-innocence.php

angela_nw wrote:One small point I wanted to bring up again -- if Zimmerman was facile and mobile enough to wiggle his way off the pavement, to where the fight ended up on the grass less than 2 minutes later, then IMO he was capable of ending the fight without shooting Martin. In fact, if Zimmerman was even trying to get out from under Martin's supposed "blows" or "pummels," wouldn't there be evidence of that all over Martin's limbs and clothing -- blood, dna and injuries? Just does not make sense. I believe that there is no evidence of Zimmerman using HIS hands to protect himself because they were occupied the whole time - holding the gun. imo

DebFrmHell wrote:MOM stated in the past that he would probably forego the SYG for standard self-defense, IIRC. He saw how GZ withered on the stand during the small cross in the bail hearing. Why on earth would he want that to happen when using the SYG changes the burden of proof to the defense rather than the prosecution?

Isn't there still an evidenciary hearing to be held yet? Before the possible SYG? He could ask for an outright dismissal of charges at that time.

Sorry, I forget the order for all of these hearing.

Ellejay, do you have a link to the order? I don't mean the dates because I don't think any hae been assigned thus far. I get confused.

George Zimmerman can ask to have the second-degree-murder charge against him dropped without having to stand trial in the death of Trayvon Martin.

Two years ago, the Florida Supreme Court ruled that anyone claiming "stand your ground" immunity in a death, battery or assault case can request a hearing on the evidence.

The hearing allows the prosecution and defense to argue all the elements of self-defense in the case evidence. To get charges dismissed, the accused must convince the judge that a reasonable person would believe that using deadly force or the threat of deadly force was the only way to protect his or her life, court records show.

In its Dec. 16, 2010, ruling, the state Supreme Court stated that defendants claiming self-defense are entitled to evidentiary hearings to argue that the evidence in their cases proves they had the right to protect themselves.

ellejay wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:MOM stated in the past that he would probably forego the SYG for standard self-defense, IIRC. He saw how GZ withered on the stand during the small cross in the bail hearing. Why on earth would he want that to happen when using the SYG changes the burden of proof to the defense rather than the prosecution?

Isn't there still an evidenciary hearing to be held yet? Before the possible SYG? He could ask for an outright dismissal of charges at that time.

Sorry, I forget the order for all of these hearing.

Ellejay, do you have a link to the order? I don't mean the dates because I don't think any hae been assigned thus far. I get confused.

--the evidenciary hearing IS the SYG hearing.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-11/news/os-george-zimmerman-stand-your-ground-hearings-20120411_1_eric-sandhaus-craig-sandhaus-milton-torres

--April 11/2012

George Zimmerman can ask to have the second-degree-murder charge against him dropped without having to stand trial in the death of Trayvon Martin.

Two years ago, the Florida Supreme Court ruled that anyone claiming "stand your ground" immunity in a death, battery or assault case can request a hearing on the evidence.

The hearing allows the prosecution and defense to argue all the elements of self-defense in the case evidence. To get charges dismissed, the accused must convince the judge that a reasonable person would believe that using deadly force or the threat of deadly force was the only way to protect his or her life, court records show.

Thanks! I knew you would have the link answers!
In its Dec. 16, 2010, ruling, the state Supreme Court stated that defendants claiming self-defense are entitled to evidentiary hearings to argue that the evidence in their cases proves they had the right to protect themselves.

--back when george was 1st arrested legal experts were assuming that o'mara would opt for the evidenciary/SYG hearing(which would happen months down the road)----o'mara then said he would have to see all of the evidence that the state had before making that decision.

--i doubt he'll take that chance, george would obviously have to testify (and we've seen that action when george briefly took the stand at the bond hearing) the burden would be ON the defense, and, if the judge didn't grant their dismissal they would pretty much have given up all of their defense tactics since they would go all out at "their" hearing to have the charges dropped.......however, we'll see.

angela_nw wrote:One small point I wanted to bring up again -- if Zimmerman was facile and mobile enough to wiggle his way off the pavement, to where the fight ended up on the grass less than 2 minutes later, then IMO he was capable of ending the fight without shooting Martin. In fact, if Zimmerman was even trying to get out from under Martin's supposed "blows" or "pummels," wouldn't there be evidence of that all over Martin's limbs and clothing -- blood, dna and injuries? Just does not make sense. I believe that there is no evidence of Zimmerman using HIS hands to protect himself because they were occupied the whole time - holding the gun. imo

Gizmo711 wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Lash wrote:Deb or anyone... I don't have my posts on THM to refer back to (sad face) am I correct that the gun did not chamber another round...the magazine was found full?

Yes Lash.
The gun was recovered with a full magazine

It was also stated that the bullit was a "hollow point", these bulits were against the law at one time. They are called "people killers". They are not meant to just wound someone, they open like a butterfly. Instant death to the receiver.

The mere fact that a bullit was used like this means that Zimmerman had all intentions of killing someone if used.

Lash wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

Tamta wrote:

Lash wrote:Deb or anyone... I don't have my posts on THM to refer back to (sad face) am I correct that the gun did not chamber another round...the magazine was found full?

Yes Lash.
The gun was recovered with a full magazine

It was also stated that the bullit was a "hollow point", these bulits were against the law at one time. They are called "people killers". They are not meant to just wound someone, they open like a butterfly. Instant death to the receiver.

The mere fact that a bullit was used like this means that Zimmerman had all intentions of killing someone if used.

Hi Gizmo! The bullet was indeed a hollow point. There are still some laws prohibiting the use of hollow points. They're banned for military use.

I disagree that "instantaneous death" comes to those who are shot by a hollow point. That is a big leap. The bullet alone does not determine the outcome. Where the bullet enters the body...what organs or arteries are affected...all these factors and more determine the outcome. It is true that hollow points are made to expand upon entering the body. They decrease penetration and the mushrooming can cause more damage. They rarely cause a through and through shot. The control of the penetration is also considered a safety measure. It lessens the chance of the bullet passing through an aggressor and causing harm to an innocent.

I also disagree based merely on the type of bullet GZ carried makes him an "intentional killer". Are you aware the majority of LE carry using hollow points? Would this make LE and our local, state governments "intentional killers"? In my opinion, absolutely not. These bullets are favored because of their accuracy, the added safety of over penetrating, ricocheting and the greater potential of stopping the threat.

Also, as you can see in the link provided below, jacketed hollow points (JHP) provide a greater "one shot stop" percentage than full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=15&Weight=115

ellejay wrote:

angela_nw wrote:One small point I wanted to bring up again -- if Zimmerman was facile and mobile enough to wiggle his way off the pavement, to where the fight ended up on the grass less than 2 minutes later, then IMO he was capable of ending the fight without shooting Martin. In fact, if Zimmerman was even trying to get out from under Martin's supposed "blows" or "pummels," wouldn't there be evidence of that all over Martin's limbs and clothing -- blood, dna and injuries? Just does not make sense. I believe that there is no evidence of Zimmerman using HIS hands to protect himself because they were occupied the whole time - holding the gun. imo

--good point about george's hands. there is absolutely zero sign of any "defensive wounds" on them---if you are truly getting your face/head beaten, it's only natural that he would have put his hands up to shield himself --if he could have, so why didn't he?




http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-shooting-death-of-trayvon-martin-20120517,0,6090406.photogallery?index=os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-067
--pics 27 & 28--bottom of george's hands....not a scratch.

Porky wrote:Lash

Let's say we buy what you are saying. Do you agree that the intent is to kill if one shoots another at point blank in the heart area?

ellejay wrote:
http://www.gzlegalcase.com/
Where Is the Rest of the Discovery on the Zimmerman Case? on 21 May 2012.

We have fielded many inquiries regarding the additional information about this case. The State Attorney’s Office has made much of the evidence in the George Zimmerman case public record on Thursday, May 17, 2012. Mr. Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara, has stressed that people should not make up their minds about this case based upon the partial evidence available. The O’Mara Law Group has estimated that only about half of the discovery has been made available by the state so far. The remainder of the discovery is currently being scrutinized, and certain information is being properly redacted -- especially information that puts witnesses in potential danger or risks unnecessarily inflaming the cultural tensions that surround this case. We agree with the State’s decision to attend to this discovery in a methodical, protected way.

It may be several weeks before all the evidence is delivered to the defense, and it is important to note that certain items in evidence may not be made public at all. Because of the interest in this case, it is understood that there will be wide public examination of the evidence. The O’Mara Law group stresses that while the George Zimmerman case will be explored deeply in the media and by the public, the only proper place to determine the guilt or innocence of George Zimmerman is in court, and indeed only the jury will have all the evidence required to make such a determination.

--mentioning that "only a jury" will have all the evidence would 'suggest' that omara is planning on skipping the SYG immunity hearing (the mini-trial heard only by the judge) and taking this to trial.

ellejay wrote:

angela_nw wrote:One small point I wanted to bring up again -- if Zimmerman was facile and mobile enough to wiggle his way off the pavement, to where the fight ended up on the grass less than 2 minutes later, then IMO he was capable of ending the fight without shooting Martin. In fact, if Zimmerman was even trying to get out from under Martin's supposed "blows" or "pummels," wouldn't there be evidence of that all over Martin's limbs and clothing -- blood, dna and injuries? Just does not make sense. I believe that there is no evidence of Zimmerman using HIS hands to protect himself because they were occupied the whole time - holding the gun. imo

--good point about george's hands. there is absolutely zero sign of any "defensive wounds" on them---if you are truly getting your face/head beaten, it's only natural that he would have put his hands up to shield himself --if he could have, so why didn't he?




http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-shooting-death-of-trayvon-martin-20120517,0,6090406.photogallery?index=os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-067
--pics 27 & 28--bottom of george's hands....not a scratch.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

ellejay wrote:

angela_nw wrote:One small point I wanted to bring up again -- if Zimmerman was facile and mobile enough to wiggle his way off the pavement, to where the fight ended up on the grass less than 2 minutes later, then IMO he was capable of ending the fight without shooting Martin. In fact, if Zimmerman was even trying to get out from under Martin's supposed "blows" or "pummels," wouldn't there be evidence of that all over Martin's limbs and clothing -- blood, dna and injuries? Just does not make sense. I believe that there is no evidence of Zimmerman using HIS hands to protect himself because they were occupied the whole time - holding the gun. imo

--good point about george's hands. there is absolutely zero sign of any "defensive wounds" on them---if you are truly getting your face/head beaten, it's only natural that he would have put his hands up to shield himself --if he could have, so why didn't he?




http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-shooting-death-of-trayvon-martin-20120517,0,6090406.photogallery?index=os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-067
--pics 27 & 28--bottom of george's hands....not a scratch.

Isn't it interesting that a person who claimed he was brutally attacked doesn't have any defensive wounds on his hands?

Gizmo711 wrote:

Lash wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:
It was also stated that the bullit was a "hollow point", these bulits were against the law at one time. They are called "people killers". They are not meant to just wound someone, they open like a butterfly. Instant death to the receiver.

The mere fact that a bullit was used like this means that Zimmerman had all intentions of killing someone if used.

Hi Gizmo! The bullet was indeed a hollow point. There are still some laws prohibiting the use of hollow points. They're banned for military use.

I disagree that "instantaneous death" comes to those who are shot by a hollow point. That is a big leap. The bullet alone does not determine the outcome. Where the bullet enters the body...what organs or arteries are affected...all these factors and more determine the outcome. It is true that hollow points are made to expand upon entering the body. They decrease penetration and the mushrooming can cause more damage. They rarely cause a through and through shot. The control of the penetration is also considered a safety measure. It lessens the chance of the bullet passing through an aggressor and causing harm to an innocent.

I also disagree based merely on the type of bullet GZ carried makes him an "intentional killer". Are you aware the majority of LE carry using hollow points? Would this make LE and our local, state governments "intentional killers"? In my opinion, absolutely not. These bullets are favored because of their accuracy, the added safety of over penetrating, ricocheting and the greater potential of stopping the threat.

Also, as you can see in the link provided below, jacketed hollow points (JHP) provide a greater "one shot stop" percentage than full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=15&Weight=115

Yes, hollow point bullits are used so that the bullit wont travel thru any hard surface. But, any bullit hit in the chest cavity would do major harm, but a hollow point is very likely to be instant death. Most civilians use them for home intruders, so that the bullit wont go thru a wall and hit someone in the next room etc. But a person can survive if hit in the leg, arm etc also. But to be hit in the chest or back or stomach will most likely cause instant death. It was stated that Trayvon died instantly, I wouldn't doubt it when he has been hit with a hollow point bullit. There wouldn't be time for him to catch a breath to say "you got me". that's for sure. It would have knocked every bit of wind he had in him out.

For those who believe that it was Trayvon screaming, notice how the screaming stopped instantly when the gun was fired.

As for what LE uses, the hollow point would be best for them to use in order not to hit any innocent people. LE also are trained on how to fire a gun as to not kill (when they want or don't want to). When LE is shotting to kill, they kill. When they are shooting to harm, they harm. Zimmerman shot for the chest and at close range, Trayvon didn't stand a chance to survive that kind of shot.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

Isn't it interesting that a person who claimed he was brutally attacked doesn't have any defensive wounds on his hands?

Freckles wrote:Porky said:
"
You know what Gizmo? There is another subtle nuance in Zimmerman's Hollywood script as well. He said that the last words that Travon uttered were to the effect that "you got me". This struck me as odd because that kind of dying response would indicate that they knew each other before the encounter. I would think that Travon might more likely want to know who just shot me and why."

It sounds more like a game of tag, hide n seek, or maybe paint ball games. But games not something so deadly GZ was afraid for his life, so afraid GZ thought he would end up in a vegetative state. Rather staged comments. Further, as was pointed out earlier by K Z , TM had ONE FOURTH of his heart blown away! What opportunities did TM have to THINK and to ACKNOWLEDGE let alone SPEAK those words? He could not have uttered a bloodcurdling scream or even moan in pain. It was over. The door was slammed.

--KZ---:The collapse of the lungs was not instantaneous, nor was LOC (loss of consciousness) necessarily instantaneous. It actually takes several seconds to intentionally collapse a lung in the OR. And unless someone has a catastrophic head injury, LOC is not typically instantaneous from trauma-- there is often a period of consciousness after the trauma that varies according to what kind of trauma the victim sustained. It's possible that TM had several seconds of consciousness before collapsing, as his chest rapidly filled with blood, and his heart had a last few seconds of quiver. There would not have been a coordinated, beating heart from the moment of imact, but TM not only had "sufficient" BP to sustain consciousness before the GSW-- but was in an elevated physiologic state of fight or flight, with elevated endogenous catecholamines, that preceeded the GSW. So, consciousness for a few brief seconds is a true possiblilty, IMO. I apologize for stating that very bluntly-- I don't mean at all to be cold or disrespectful, but to clinically illustrate what was occurring. I've seen a lot of hearts go on, and come off cardiopulmonary bypass (and a few that never made it off bypass.) Being able to actually see how a heart responds to surgical trauma is invaluable when considering what occurs at the moment of penetrating chest trauma from a GSW, or other source of trauma.

I don't know exactly how long he may have maintained consciousness-- maybe as long as 5 seconds-- or a few seconds beyond. I think it is entirely possible, and likely, that he had a few seconds of knowledge that he had been shot in the chest, before losing consciousness. I have had people on a cardiac monitor who were talking at the moment they went into a pulseless rhythm, and I have a few clear memories of them saying such things as "Oh no" and one man I clearly remember said "Oh *****". A dying utterance is a definite physiologic possibility. (Think of this like an utterance on the exhale.)

And it always seemed more likely to me that TM may have said not "You got me", but "You shot me". I also think it's possible he clapsed his hands to his chest in shock, and perhaps this is why he was found prone with his hands beneath him.

Stolat wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

ellejay wrote:

angela_nw wrote:One small point I wanted to bring up again -- if Zimmerman was facile and mobile enough to wiggle his way off the pavement, to where the fight ended up on the grass less than 2 minutes later, then IMO he was capable of ending the fight without shooting Martin. In fact, if Zimmerman was even trying to get out from under Martin's supposed "blows" or "pummels," wouldn't there be evidence of that all over Martin's limbs and clothing -- blood, dna and injuries? Just does not make sense. I believe that there is no evidence of Zimmerman using HIS hands to protect himself because they were occupied the whole time - holding the gun. imo

--good point about george's hands. there is absolutely zero sign of any "defensive wounds" on them---if you are truly getting your face/head beaten, it's only natural that he would have put his hands up to shield himself --if he could have, so why didn't he?




http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-shooting-death-of-trayvon-martin-20120517,0,6090406.photogallery?index=os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-067
--pics 27 & 28--bottom of george's hands....not a scratch.

Isn't it interesting that a person who claimed he was brutally attacked doesn't have any defensive wounds on his hands?

BBM
@Ellejay - because he was possibly too busy getting his gun out to kill the guy

ellejay wrote:

Freckles wrote:Porky said:
"
You know what Gizmo? There is another subtle nuance in Zimmerman's Hollywood script as well. He said that the last words that Travon uttered were to the effect that "you got me". This struck me as odd because that kind of dying response would indicate that they knew each other before the encounter. I would think that Travon might more likely want to know who just shot me and why."

It sounds more like a game of tag, hide n seek, or maybe paint ball games. But games not something so deadly GZ was afraid for his life, so afraid GZ thought he would end up in a vegetative state. Rather staged comments. Further, as was pointed out earlier by K Z , TM had ONE FOURTH of his heart blown away! What opportunities did TM have to THINK and to ACKNOWLEDGE let alone SPEAK those words? He could not have uttered a bloodcurdling scream or even moan in pain. It was over. The door was slammed.

--a post by "KZ" on this subject:

--KZ---:The collapse of the lungs was not instantaneous, nor was LOC (loss of consciousness) necessarily instantaneous. It actually takes several seconds to intentionally collapse a lung in the OR. And unless someone has a catastrophic head injury, LOC is not typically instantaneous from trauma-- there is often a period of consciousness after the trauma that varies according to what kind of trauma the victim sustained. It's possible that TM had several seconds of consciousness before collapsing, as his chest rapidly filled with blood, and his heart had a last few seconds of quiver. There would not have been a coordinated, beating heart from the moment of imact, but TM not only had "sufficient" BP to sustain consciousness before the GSW-- but was in an elevated physiologic state of fight or flight, with elevated endogenous catecholamines, that preceeded the GSW. So, consciousness for a few brief seconds is a true possiblilty, IMO. I apologize for stating that very bluntly-- I don't mean at all to be cold or disrespectful, but to clinically illustrate what was occurring. I've seen a lot of hearts go on, and come off cardiopulmonary bypass (and a few that never made it off bypass.) Being able to actually see how a heart responds to surgical trauma is invaluable when considering what occurs at the moment of penetrating chest trauma from a GSW, or other source of trauma.

I don't know exactly how long he may have maintained consciousness-- maybe as long as 5 seconds-- or a few seconds beyond. I think it is entirely possible, and likely, that he had a few seconds of knowledge that he had been shot in the chest, before losing consciousness. I have had people on a cardiac monitor who were talking at the moment they went into a pulseless rhythm, and I have a few clear memories of them saying such things as "Oh no" and one man I clearly remember said "Oh *****". A dying utterance is a definite physiologic possibility. (Think of this like an utterance on the exhale.)

And it always seemed more likely to me that TM may have said not "You got me", but "You shot me". I also think it's possible he clapsed his hands to his chest in shock, and perhaps this is why he was found prone with his hands beneath him.

Cubs Fan wrote:I agree that if the beating took place as GZ described then both Trayvon & GZ would have had at least bruising on their hands - has any one seen any evidence that Trayvon's phone or the ice tea was tested for DNA? Those would have been Trayvon's only weapons other than his fists... although shoes could do some damage, too. I suppose it is possible that Trayvon used what he had on him to beat the shit out of GZ, as he stood his ground against a possible stalker.

On another note - the screaming... I imagine that if I was being attacked and screaming for help, I would not stop screaming after I shot my attacker, as I would still need help. Even if I shot the guy & he was laying on the ground I'd still be in a panic & would continue to scream, especially if he had beat me & broken my nose. So I am 99% convinced the screaming for help was Trayvon, GZ still needed help & should have wanted someone to call 911 to get him that help even after he shot Trayvon. So IF on the 1% chance GZ was the one who was screaming on the 911 calls, he stopped & went into CYA mode pretty darn quickly after the bullet left his gun. Could that be malicious intent?

Puzzler wrote:We need more "facts".

Cubs Fan wrote:I agree that if the beating took place as GZ described then both Trayvon & GZ would have had at least bruising on their hands - has any one seen any evidence that Trayvon's phone or the ice tea was tested for DNA? Those would have been Trayvon's only weapons other than his fists... although shoes could do some damage, too. I suppose it is possible that Trayvon used what he had on him to beat the shit out of GZ, as he stood his ground against a possible stalker.

On another note - the screaming... I imagine that if I was being attacked and screaming for help, I would not stop screaming after I shot my attacker, as I would still need help. Even if I shot the guy & he was laying on the ground I'd still be in a panic & would continue to scream, especially if he had beat me & broken my nose. So I am 99% convinced the screaming for help was Trayvon, GZ still needed help & should have wanted someone to call 911 to get him that help even after he shot Trayvon. So IF on the 1% chance GZ was the one who was screaming on the 911 calls, he stopped & went into CYA mode pretty darn quickly after the bullet left his gun. Could that be malicious intent?

Porky wrote:Lash

Let's say we buy what you are saying. Do you agree that the intent is to kill if one shoots another at point blank in the heart area?

Gizmo711 wrote:I don't for a second believe that Trayvon said such a thing. No one and especially a teenager would come out with such a remark. The screaming stop the second the shot was fired and Trayvon died instantly. he had no time to utter a sound moreless a sentence. And had he had enough time, I doubt very much it would have been "you got me". If anything at all, he may have said in a surprise tone "you shot me", but I even doubt that. That bullit killed Trayvon the instant it hit him.

DebFrmHell wrote:

IIRC, the tea can was in the center pocket of the hoodie. It was removed by one of the first responders (LE, I forget the officers name) after TM was turned and to start chest compressions.

DebFrmHell wrote:When you load a semi-automatic you fill the clip and insert it. You rack a bullet into the chamber then release the clip to replace that bullet for a full magazine with one in the chamber.

7(for the clip) and 1 in the chanber. 7+1.

There is some debate as to whether that handgun will hold 8 rounds. I only watched a video clip of the KelTec and freely admit that I have never fired one. IMO, It is a cheap peice of crap.

Just the trigger pull alone of 4.5lbs is enough to keep me away. Not to mention that there is no active safety. It relies on its double action trigger and weight of finger pull.

I prefer Smith and Wesson.

One thing I would like people to note is that holster. It has a clip on the side, not unlike the old cell phone carriers for a visual, and attachs to the inside of your pants. There is no restraining strap to keep the gun in place. You grab the grip and pull it out. No deterents to slow you down.

I have seen a better picture of it somewhere that will make it clearer.

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:When you load a semi-automatic you fill the clip and insert it. You rack a bullet into the chamber then release the clip to replace that bullet for a full magazine with one in the chamber.

7(for the clip) and 1 in the chanber. 7+1.

There is some debate as to whether that handgun will hold 8 rounds. I only watched a video clip of the KelTec and freely admit that I have never fired one. IMO, It is a cheap peice of crap.

Just the trigger pull alone of 4.5lbs is enough to keep me away. Not to mention that there is no active safety. It relies on its double action trigger and weight of finger pull.

I prefer Smith and Wesson.

One thing I would like people to note is that holster. It has a clip on the side, not unlike the old cell phone carriers for a visual, and attachs to the inside of your pants. There is no restraining strap to keep the gun in place. You grab the grip and pull it out. No deterents to slow you down.

I have seen a better picture of it somewhere that will make it clearer.

Photos of the holster:

DebFrmHell wrote:

Alessandra_Deux wrote:

DebFrmHell wrote:When you load a semi-automatic you fill the clip and insert it. You rack a bullet into the chamber then release the clip to replace that bullet for a full magazine with one in the chamber.

7(for the clip) and 1 in the chanber. 7+1.

There is some debate as to whether that handgun will hold 8 rounds. I only watched a video clip of the KelTec and freely admit that I have never fired one. IMO, It is a cheap peice of crap.

Just the trigger pull alone of 4.5lbs is enough to keep me away. Not to mention that there is no active safety. It relies on its double action trigger and weight of finger pull.

I prefer Smith and Wesson.

One thing I would like people to note is that holster. It has a clip on the side, not unlike the old cell phone carriers for a visual, and attachs to the inside of your pants. There is no restraining strap to keep the gun in place. You grab the grip and pull it out. No deterents to slow you down.

I have seen a better picture of it somewhere that will make it clearer.

Photos of the holster:

Thank you very much for posting those pictures. I still need to take some time with Picasa to figure out what I am doing. LOL! If I can just get it to my desktop, I can repost it thru Image Shack.

I really need to figure out screen captures. Typing out things I find in the 183 is just tedious.

ellejay wrote:http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-22/news/os-george-zimmerman-key-witnesses-20120522_1_witnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent
Several George Zimmerman witnesses change their accounts

Evidence released last week in the second-degree-murder case against George Zimmerman shows four key witnesses made major changes in what they say they saw and heard the night he fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford.

Three changed their stories in ways that may damage Zimmerman. A fourth abandoned her initial story, that she saw one person chasing another. Now, she says, she saw a single figure running.

They were reinterviewed in mid-March, after Sanford police handed the case off to State Attorney Norm Wolfinger. The case changed hands again when Gov. Rick Scott passed it on to a special prosecutor. Zimmerman was arrested April 11 on a charge of second-degree murder.

Here are the key ways in which their stories changed.

--more@link---

"Let her know what's happening, been involved in a shooting and will be held for questioning," the witness told the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. "He was more like, talking like he was having a hard time, looked like he just got his butt whipped ... not like he was in shock, not like, 'I can't believe I just shot someone,' but like, 'Just tell my wife I just shot someone,' like it was nothing."

The woman told police that Zimmerman, 28, examined Martin's body as he slowly paced back and forth when the police arrived. She watched as they checked the teen's body and turned him over, eventually starting CPR. But he was already dead for five or 10 minutes, she said.

"I do honestly feel that he intended for this kid to die," witness 5 told investigators. "If you're in self defense, shoot him in the leg. He's a 17-year-old, scrawny little kid. You get into a physical fight with him. ... I think the kid was running for help."

angela_nw wrote:Well, if you had seen someone get killed right outside your door, you might have both an intellectual response/recollection of the event, as well as an emotional response to the demeanor of the shooter who is standing there, and a general visceral reaction to what you witnessed. I would guess that witness 5 referred to Martin's exact age in a later interview. Just because the story was (finally) reported in the media some time after the event, does not ABSOLUTELY negate the validity of witness's recollections.

I was in the kitchen and heard someone yelling almost crying. Then I heard a gunshot. I went outside and saw a man on top of a guy laying on the ground. He was putting his hands on his neck or chest. I yelled "Everything OK?" and he did not reply. I said it again "Is everything OK?" He said to call the police.

My roomate called 911.

From the NYTimes (5/17/12):
Two witnesses' accounts
Selma Mora Lamilla and Mary Cutcher said they ran to their back porch after hearing “whining” and a gunshot. Ms. Lamilla said she saw Mr. Zimmerman on top with his knees straddling Trayvon. Ms. Cutcher went inside to call 911 and returned to find Mr. Zimmerman pacing

I responded to the above location in reference to a shots fired call. Part of my assistance in this case was to collect witness statements from residence. I observed a female on the back porch of (redacted) I asked (redacted) if she had witnesses anything and she replied stating, no but my roommate did. I requested her to find her room mate and ask if she would provide a sworn statement in regards to what she had witnesses. (redacted) advised she would look for her.

Several minutes later I returned and met with (redacted) and her room mate (redacted)I requested a sworn statement but both (redacted) and (redacted) advised they were afraid and did not want to assist in providing a statement.

Again several minutes later, (redacted) called me over to her porch. (redacted) stated that (redacted) decided that she would provide a sworn statement and (redacted) would write for her due to translation (redacted) provided me a written statement sworn to by (redacted) based on (redacted) testimony.

angela_nw wrote:

(Cutcher &) Lamilla statement 2/26/12

I am not sure where to find their statements from 3/1 and 3/2??

angela_nw wrote:Is Cutcher's roommate Lamilla the one who needed a translation? I will go back and read the pdf with witness statements. (I assume their statements are in the 183-pg pdf?)
Or do you have a link for their progression of statements?

"The woman told police that Zimmerman, 28, examined Martin's body as he slowly paced back and forth when the police arrived. She watched as they checked the teen's body and turned him over, eventually starting CPR. But he was already dead for five or 10 minutes, she said.
"I do honestly feel that he intended for this kid to die," witness 5 told investigators. "If you're in self defense, shoot him in the leg. He's a 17-year-old, scrawny little kid. You get into a physical fight with him. ... I think the kid was running for help."

DebFrmHell wrote: The witness report from Officer Mead got my attention because they didn't want to make an original statement after they had already been all over television.