George Zimmerman / Trayvon Martin Case #4

Got it! Thank you Porky
-snipped from Porkys link-

"the new medical records also show the doctor wrote that Zimmerman "had a weapon as he is authorized to carry a firearm, and he fired at the attacker, killing him."

Sheaffer said that unrelated statement about the gun could raise questions about the report, which otherwise helps Zimmerman."

So I didn't remember correctly, but I knew there was something that I found odd. It was the stmt about being abe to legally carry his gun.

Chickenbutt wrote:Got it! Thank you Porky
-snipped from Porkys link-

"the new medical records also show the doctor wrote that Zimmerman "had a weapon as he is authorized to carry a firearm, and he fired at the attacker, killing him."

Sheaffer said that unrelated statement about the gun could raise questions about the report, which otherwise helps Zimmerman."

So I didn't remember correctly, but I knew there was something that I found odd. It was the stmt about being abe to legally carry his gun.

Again, as long as these comments are GEORGE'S comments and recorded in the HISTORY section, they are completely appropriate in a medical record. Patients sometimes claim to be Santa Claus or Jesus-- the history is simply what the patient told the doctor. Nothing else. The comments are not "evidence" of what happened or anything. They are used to guide medical care, period.

I get that KZ....my only point is that it is odd. No more, no less.

Puzzler wrote:If it were me with a hand over my mouth, I would be squiggling and moving to get away from it as quickly as possible; so while the hand was smothering George's mouth, it wasn't the entire time.

Valid and plausible reaction and yet interestingly, amid all the things we *did* hear GZ say about his struggle -- *that* was not one of them. He said nothing about trying to wriggle free from TM's hands over his mouth.

KZ wrote:

Chickenbutt wrote:Report by MISS Fulgate (sp)...is she an MD? A nurse practioner? A physician assistant? Certainly not a doc as they would call her Doctor.

Lin Folgate. She is a PA. I felt certain he was seen by one of the 2 PA's in the office. Now we know which one.

http://www.altamontefamilypractice.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=2&Itemid=3

I predict she is going to be slayed by the prosecution simply because she is not a physician. And the doc in the office, Krupitsky, will be slayed, too-- the accusation will be that he didn't "supervise" Folgate closely enough, or "review" the care she provided. The best thing her documentation has going for her is that she also did not feel his injuries were severe.

We don't have the official medical record released yet, but in the GZ case documents I posted a while back a link to the news report where pages from the office visit were displayed in enough clarity to freeze the video to enlarge and read them. We had a discussion a while back about the records (here or THM, can't remember). I remember writing a longish post about broken nasal cartilage, and why xrays are not recommended, because a bunch of posters and commentary faulted the provider for not obtaining xrays.

I feel very bad for what Folgate and Krupitsky are about to be put through. I don't think they were complicit in any way-- the guy showed up for an office visit, and Folgate was presumably the one who had the misfortune to see him. Every aspect of her care (for a rather mundane set of injuries) will be picked to bits, and they will try to make her and Krupitsky look incompetent. JMO. Or worse-- complicit in some conspiracy to make his injuries look worse than they were.

You're right KZ - it's not their fault. It's GZ's. If I just shot and killed someone and told to go see a doc within 24 hrs, I sure as hell would not leave the hinge of testimony in the hands of someone only required to do only 2 yrs college w/ some medical training. I'd make damn sure it would be a doctor with 4 yr degree/masters/board certified/internship/residency under their belts to do the job. NOT because I don't think a PA can't tell whether someone broke a nose, but because I would know that the imparity of credentials would be ripped to shreds.

Yes, stolat-- and the doc Krupitsky will be shredded, too-- because he is a D.O., and not an MD.

Just the way the game is played.

Stolat wrote:

Puzzler wrote:If it were me with a hand over my mouth, I would be squiggling and moving to get away from it as quickly as possible; so while the hand was smothering George's mouth, it wasn't the entire time.

Valid and plausible reaction and yet interestingly, amid all the things we *did* hear GZ say about his struggle -- *that* was not one of them. He said nothing about trying to wriggle free from TM's hands over his mouth.

George's father made the point: (words to the effect) from the looks of my son's head, Trayvon Martin's hands were over more than George's mouth and nose.

Chickenbutt wrote:I get that KZ....my only point is that it is odd. No more, no less.

I do agree with that, CB.

But consider if the patient said "I shot a guy" or "I shot a guy who was beating me up"-- the provider would probably inquire as to whether or not LE was involved-- as a means to determine whether or not LE should be notified right there and then. There was certainly more to the convo than what the provider had room to document. To me, that comment is documented to demonstrate that police were involved, although until I see the whole document I can't be sure. To "cover" the care by the provider, so that she is demonstrating that she wasn't treating someone who was fleeing police, evading capture. Etc.

I see it differently KZ.....If a patient came in and said "I shot a guy" I would notify the police whether or not the patient said they were on scene. I would not take the patients word for it. Then I would document "SPD called at x:xx. Spoke with XXXX."
How does GZ saying he was legal to carry his gun cause you to assume that LE had been previously involved?

I don't presume LE wasn't called just because GZ said he was legal to carry a gun.

In fact, it may be that you're correct, and the FP clinic DID contact police to verify GZ's statements.

I'm just pointing out that anything in the HPI is what the patient says or claims. It is not evidence of anything other than that-- what the patient said at the time.

Then we can agree I guess. I still find it an odd stmt on GZ's part.

[quote="alabama52"]

Gizmo711 wrote:It's odd that all we ever saw of Zimmermans family was his brother doing interviews but when it comes to bond hearings he stays away.........I wonder why that is?[/quote


I was so hoping someone else continued to watch the feed on the Orlando Sentinel, after the hearing, because I swear George's brother was standing up front in the courtroom talking to some blonde in a red dress. I did a double take because he looked so much like the 'current' George. Has anything been said about George's brother being there?

--robZ Jr was there , WFTV tweeted it at the start of the hearing----and i saw him myself at the 1st "break" time. he was also quoted on IS (or some feed)-- after the hearing as saying that he was also wearing a bullet proof vest today.

Here are a couple things to ponder:

1. Where is George's wallet? There is talk he was going to, or coming from the store. When you go to the store you take your wallet. A bag with 2 quarters was taken from GZ as evidence...but no wallet - where's the wallet?

2. And this is a medical issue - Doesn't "right-dominant blood flow" from ME report means Trayvon was right-handed? The tiny abrasion on his ring finger was on the LEFT! If this is correct as far as being right handed, Trayvon's injury didn't come from swinging a punch at GZ.

[quote="ellejay"]

alabama52 wrote:

--robZ Jr was there , WFTV tweeted it at the start of the hearing----and i saw him myself at the 1st "break" time. he was also quoted on IS (or some feed)-- after the hearing as saying that he was also wearing a bullet proof vest today.

I must not have noticed, I know I saw Taaffe. I think the bullet proof vests are just for show, just to show fear, to make it appear that they have reason to fear the same way George must have had. I think it's all BS.

More to ponder...what adult has a BAG with 2 quarters in it? Leftover laundry money?

Chickenbutt wrote:I see it differently KZ.....If a patient came in and said "I shot a guy" I would notify the police whether or not the patient said they were on scene. I would not take the patients word for it. Then I would document "SPD called at x:xx. Spoke with XXXX."
How does GZ saying he was legal to carry his gun cause you to assume that LE had been previously involved?

Actually, the way I read it - or the way the media is portraying it - is that the Dr. states: "[Zimmerman] had a weapon as he is authorized to carry a firearm, and he fired at the attacker, killing him." This is making a legal conclusion and is inappropriate for a medical report. If it were worded, "Zimmerman states that he is authorized to carry a firearm..." then it would be understandable being in the report. MO

Chickenbutt-- sorry it took me a little time to get this to you! Here is a great article snip, with a link to the original article. Describes the chemical process of cerebral edema at the subcellular level. May help to explain the findings of the beginnings of cerebral edema in Trayvon's autopsy. (I say the beginnings, because his brain weight was WNL, even though at post it is documented to have gross visual changes that indicate global edema.) The process of dying takes minutes, even if the heart is not beating. Physiology (ischemic changes) continues for a while until the products of cell metabolism are used up.

Within 20 seconds of interruption of blood flow to the mammalian brain under conditions of normothermia, the EEG disappears, probably as a result of the failure of high-energy metabolism. Within 5 minutes, high-energy phosphate levels have virtually disappeared (ATP depletion) [33] and profound disturbances in cell electrolyte balance start to occur: potassium begins to leak rapidly from the intracellular compartment and sodium and calcium begin to enter the cells [34]. Sodium influx results in a marked increase in cellular water content, particularly in the astrocytes [35].

BBM

http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/ischemic.html

CN, I thought I heard O'Mara say it was witness #9 that said Trayvon was using a head to ground slam, did I hear wrong? Because it seems that witness #9 is a female and she didn't mention anything like that.

I wonder if it was Taaffe, I also wonder if he is going to be a witness? Because if he is, I'm pretty sure it would be something taht would come out of his mouth.

No wallet,huh? I never believed George was on his way to Target. George went out to do his service to the community as neighborhood watchman.......playing cop & robber.

Did I hear O'Mara say that Zimmerman's nose was fractured, instead of broken? I also wonder if we will see any real medical records.

As another poster pointed out, those bandages on his head are actually "finger bandaids", they are not meant for the head. I would think that Shellie would know this, after all she did attend nursing school.

I knew somthing was wrong with those bandaids, I just didn't put it together until someone else said it.

alabama52 wrote:No wallet,huh? I never believed George was on his way to Target. George went out to do his service to the community as neighborhood watchman.......playing cop & robber.

No wallet? and just 50 cents in his pocket? Than for sure he wasn't going to Target to get anything...Unless a lollypop..

Gizmo711 wrote:

ellejay wrote:

--robZ Jr was there , WFTV tweeted it at the start of the hearing----and i saw him myself at the 1st "break" time. he was also quoted on IS (or some feed)-- after the hearing as saying that he was also wearing a bullet proof vest today.

I must not have noticed, I know I saw Taaffe. I think the bullet proof vests are just for show, just to show fear, to make it appear that they have reason to fear the same way George must have had. I think it's all BS.

--robZ Sr had one on too...Sr and Jr must have been wearing the 2 that george bought for shellie and omara...

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/national_world&id=8719419
George Zimmerman's father identifies him in frantic 911 call

Both Zimmerman and his father appeared in court with the distinct outline of bullet proof vests beneath their suits.

Stolat wrote:

KZ wrote:

Lin Folgate. She is a PA. I felt certain he was seen by one of the 2 PA's in the office. Now we know which one.

http://www.altamontefamilypractice.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=2&Itemid=3

I predict she is going to be slayed by the prosecution simply because she is not a physician. And the doc in the office, Krupitsky, will be slayed, too-- the accusation will be that he didn't "supervise" Folgate closely enough, or "review" the care she provided. The best thing her documentation has going for her is that she also did not feel his injuries were severe.

We don't have the official medical record released yet, but in the GZ case documents I posted a while back a link to the news report where pages from the office visit were displayed in enough clarity to freeze the video to enlarge and read them. We had a discussion a while back about the records (here or THM, can't remember). I remember writing a longish post about broken nasal cartilage, and why xrays are not recommended, because a bunch of posters and commentary faulted the provider for not obtaining xrays.

I feel very bad for what Folgate and Krupitsky are about to be put through. I don't think they were complicit in any way-- the guy showed up for an office visit, and Folgate was presumably the one who had the misfortune to see him. Every aspect of her care (for a rather mundane set of injuries) will be picked to bits, and they will try to make her and Krupitsky look incompetent. JMO. Or worse-- complicit in some conspiracy to make his injuries look worse than they were.

You're right KZ - it's not their fault. It's GZ's. If I just shot and killed someone and told to go see a doc within 24 hrs, I sure as hell would not leave the hinge of testimony in the hands of someone only required to do only 2 yrs college w/ some medical training. I'd make damn sure it would be a doctor with 4 yr degree/masters/board certified/internship/residency under their belts to do the job. NOT because I don't think a PA can't tell whether someone broke a nose, but because I would know that the imparity of credentials would be ripped to shreds.

Didn't I hear the EMS guy first say that Zimmerman wouldn't go, then he changed it to that he advised him to go within 24 hours? I think the EMS guy was trying to help the defense and may have told only half thruths.

ellejay wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:

I must not have noticed, I know I saw Taaffe. I think the bullet proof vests are just for show, just to show fear, to make it appear that they have reason to fear the same way George must have had. I think it's all BS.

--robZ Sr had one on too...Sr and Jr must have been wearing the 2 that george bought for shellie and omara...

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/national_world&id=8719419
George Zimmerman's father identifies him in frantic 911 call

Both Zimmerman and his father appeared in court with the distinct outline of bullet proof vests beneath their suits.

How utterly rediculous, is that why Mr. Z walked with a little limp, maybe because the vest was too heavy?

The news claims that noboy was around the court house, it was just like any other day.

Fractured, broken....all the same thing....one is a medical term, one is a laymans term.

CherokeeNative wrote:

Chickenbutt wrote:I see it differently KZ.....If a patient came in and said "I shot a guy" I would notify the police whether or not the patient said they were on scene. I would not take the patients word for it. Then I would document "SPD called at x:xx. Spoke with XXXX."
How does GZ saying he was legal to carry his gun cause you to assume that LE had been previously involved?

Actually, the way I read it - or the way the media is portraying it - is that the Dr. states: "[Zimmerman] had a weapon as he is authorized to carry a firearm, and he fired at the attacker, killing him." This is making a legal conclusion and is inappropriate for a medical report. If it were worded, "Zimmerman states that he is authorized to carry a firearm..." then it would be understandable being in the report. MO

BBM. I understand your point-- but nothing in a medical record is a "legal conclusion". (Except for pronouncements of death, of course.) Whoever stated this in the report just "stated" it-- that doesn't make it a finding of fact. For example, a medical assistant prepping a patient for the provider to come in might also document that the patient said "XYZ". A receptionist booking an appt might put in the comments "Patient says XYZ." The only weight legally that will be given to this comment is that GZ himself said that to the medical provider. The provider did not conclude that. The provider is establishing the history as to why the patient presented himself for care. Those words are George's.

When documenting, I don't know anyone who would state over and over in the HPI "the patient states...". It is understood that this is what the patient (or whoever is giving the history) states. The person giving the history is typically noted in the first sentence in that section. The history can be by a parent, a spouse, a police officer accompanying a prisoner, etc.

"Mrs. Smith presents today for an urgent office visit for the following complaints: ......." It is understood that Mrs. Smith is then the one supplying the information.

This is an example of MSM taking a comment out of context and repeating it over and over with an slant to the information-- as if the medical provider is at fault simply because GZ presented for care. It pisses me off to see innocent health care providers under a shroud of controversy, with their words taken out of context by some reporter, when all they did was come to work that day. Put the responsibility for that comment where it belongs-- right out of GZ's mouth. If anyone was attempting to manipulate, it was him. We have NO indication at all that the health care provider did anything at all incorrectly.

Gizmo711 wrote:Did I hear O'Mara say that Zimmerman's nose was fractured, instead of broken? I also wonder if we will see any real medical records.

We know that GZ has at least 2 relevant "real medical records": the paramedic run record when he was cleaned up and refused transport, and the FP clinic record. They will both be evidence.

In my experience, EMS ALWAYS recommends people go to the ER. They do it for their liability. If the patient refuses transport then the patient signs a legal document that they are aware of the risks of refusing transport and accept all responsibilty for those risks. So I would guess GZ signed the form and was told by the EMS crew that he needed to see a doc sooner rather than later as stitches would not be placed after a certain amount of time from injury.

CherokeeNative wrote:Here are a couple things to ponder:

1. Where is George's wallet? There is talk he was going to, or coming from the store. When you go to the store you take your wallet. A bag with 2 quarters was taken from GZ as evidence...but no wallet - where's the wallet?

--i know a lot of men that toss their wallet into the glove box.....unlike most women who would definitely have their purse w/ them when going to the store.

--and we know LE didn't search or even look into george's truck that night-----since shellie simply drove it home.

--i am interested though in the surveillance video from that M&I Bank that was mentioned a while ago....they must have some good reason to have it in evidence (was george spotted there in his truck?)

Correct, CB. They definitely would have recommended "getting checked out." Just to be safe.

George is a complete idiot for refusing to go. IMO.

KZ, I agree that the caregiver did nothing wrong and she was just documenting what GZ said. I suspect she had SOAP notes that make it clear who is saying what. I agree that the PA and DO are going to take a beating in court. MOM will make the most of anything he can. Hopefully, BDLR will be on his game and put the blame where it belongs.

They way I heard it was that George didn't want to go with them at that time, so the EMT advised that he go within 24 hours, because it looked like he needed stitches.

KZ...just to lighten the conversation....imagine the "S" in the SOAP.
S: My head was pounded into the concrete. I felt like my head was going to explode. And oh, btw, I have a permit to carry the gun that I killed the guy with

It makes no sense.....

Right Puzzler.

CherokeeNative wrote:

Chickenbutt wrote:I see it differently KZ.....If a patient came in and said "I shot a guy" I would notify the police whether or not the patient said they were on scene. I would not take the patients word for it. Then I would document "SPD called at x:xx. Spoke with XXXX."
How does GZ saying he was legal to carry his gun cause you to assume that LE had been previously involved?

Actually, the way I read it - or the way the media is portraying it - is that the Dr. states: "[Zimmerman] had a weapon as he is authorized to carry a firearm, and he fired at the attacker, killing him." This is making a legal conclusion and is inappropriate for a medical report. If it were worded, "Zimmerman states that he is authorized to carry a firearm..." then it would be understandable being in the report. MO

Bingo. Reading between the lines it also says a relationship already existed. Medical people are very careful to not go out on a limb for people like that. Sloppy medicine at that. How does she NOT order CY studies and an MRI of the head?

Mercysake wrote:I am totally shocked that the passports didn't come into this bond hearing by the Pros. George turned in the old lost passport, not the new one he got to replace the old one that he believed that he lost. The new one was in a safe, George is a flight risk.

I kept yelling about the passport at the TV, don't know why they didn't hear me. ;)

O'Mara just moved into the Baez the Bozo zone with me by testifying in court. Not enough time was spent on the bond issue, I'd also like to know why the balance of the bond had not been paid.

I had to leave for awhile, so just getting caught up, thanks everyone for posting the updates!

Porky, in defense of the PA. Not all head injuries require a CT or MRI. But in a case as serious as this, why didn't they do it to cover their (GZ's) butt you may ask? Docs do not practice "legal" medicine depending on the case. Either the tests are called for or not. Docs do not (or at least should not) practice medicine based on what the legalities of the case may be. Did that make any sense at all? It did to me....lol


ETA: If you think they should have done an MRI or CT to cover all the bases, then they should have done a drug and alcohol test also. And they would have to justify it all to the insurance company for reimbursement.

Chickenbutt wrote:Fractured, broken....all the same thing....one is a medical term, one is a laymans term.

I was just wondering why O'Mara corrected it. He first said broken and then said excuse me "fracture". I didn't quite know what he was meaning by that.

Wanting to sound professional is my guess

http://twitter.com/roblesherald

Frances Robles ‏@RoblesHerald

There's $211,000 in George Zimmerman's legal defense fund now.
__________________

alabama52 wrote:

Chickenbutt wrote:Tess, I thought the bandaids on his head looked like finger bandages.

Except for the color, it looked as though Shellie slapped on a couple of those mini-pads with the wings!

good one!

serenaz1 wrote:

alabama52 wrote:

Except for the color, it looked as though Shellie slapped on a couple of those mini-pads with the wings!

good one!

ellejay wrote:http://twitter.com/roblesherald

Frances Robles ‏@RoblesHerald

There's $211,000 in George Zimmerman's legal defense fund now.
__________________

So all we need is a 2 million dollar bond to wipe that all out.

CherokeeNative wrote:Here are a couple things to ponder:

1. Where is George's wallet? There is talk he was going to, or coming from the store. When you go to the store you take your wallet. A bag with 2 quarters was taken from GZ as evidence...but no wallet - where's the wallet?

2. And this is a medical issue - Doesn't "right-dominant blood flow" from ME report means Trayvon was right-handed? The tiny abrasion on his ring finger was on the LEFT! If this is correct as far as being right handed, Trayvon's injury didn't come from swinging a punch at GZ.

EXCELLENT points, CN, I hadn't even thought about Z's wallet!

CherokeeNative wrote:

Chickenbutt wrote:I see it differently KZ.....If a patient came in and said "I shot a guy" I would notify the police whether or not the patient said they were on scene. I would not take the patients word for it. Then I would document "SPD called at x:xx. Spoke with XXXX."
How does GZ saying he was legal to carry his gun cause you to assume that LE had been previously involved?

Actually, the way I read it - or the way the media is portraying it - is that the Dr. states: "[Zimmerman] had a weapon as he is authorized to carry a firearm, and he fired at the attacker, killing him." This is making a legal conclusion and is inappropriate for a medical report. If it were worded, "Zimmerman states that he is authorized to carry a firearm..." then it would be understandable being in the report. MO

I think the article being talked about is the one where the writer was involved in looking for fraud in reports or something like that. Said that was a strange statement to have & would raise a red flag with him. Was it maybe at that Axiom site? I'm not on the computer where I've bookmarked things, sorry.

So the Sanford police did not check out George's truck??? That's just another screw-up by them. George could have had a whole arsenal in there.....guns, rifles, tasers. This would be evidence of what a nut he is.

ellejay wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:Here are a couple things to ponder:

1. Where is George's wallet? There is talk he was going to, or coming from the store. When you go to the store you take your wallet. A bag with 2 quarters was taken from GZ as evidence...but no wallet - where's the wallet?

--i know a lot of men that toss their wallet into the glove box.....unlike most women who would definitely have their purse w/ them when going to the store.

--and we know LE didn't search or even look into george's truck that night-----since shellie simply drove it home.

--i am interested though in the surveillance video from that M&I Bank that was mentioned a while ago....they must have some good reason to have it in evidence (was george spotted there in his truck?)

Yeah, that's true about the glovebox, wish they would've have impounded his truck. Wonder if he ever kept his gun in there too? I'd like to know if he put it on before leaving the house, would it be comfortable to wear while driving? Or did he 'strap up' after he saw TM?

And, I am sick of hearing how Georgie & family fear for their life. And, of course, MOM going on air a while back, claiming that he had been threatened. Judge Lester received a threat right after the first bond hearing but you don't hear him going on & on about it!

Chickenbutt wrote:More to ponder...what adult has a BAG with 2 quarters in it? Leftover laundry money?

A "quarter bag" ??? Hmmmm..... more code talk maybe? lol!

maybe he was going to Target after the munchies