George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin Case -- General Discussion #6

WeeBonnie wrote:I THINK I GOT IT!!!

They are throwing MOM under the bus at SZs hearing.
And GZ dumps him (without paying)and somehow looks reasonable again to his dumbass suppoters.

The failed PR and fundraising efforts might have turned things around for MOM but the temptation of $$$$, a bombshell excuse for Shell (good chapter for his book) and regaining the unbridled support of those Treepers is going to be too much for GZ.

Shells upcoming hearing is the only reason he is delaying this. He's always lied and screwed over lawyers before- I'm sure he'll do it again.

I agree that the only excuse Shelly has is to claim that MOM knew about the funds and told them all it was unimportant - BUT even throwing MOM under the bus will not erase the fact that she lied under oath. Another person's encouragement to you committing a crime does not relieve you for having committed it. I would also think that MOM is feeling a little bit secure in the fact that - who are you going to believe? The mild attorney who has an impeccable reputation with the Court? Or two low-life criminal defendants who are pointing fingers to absolve themselves of committing perjury? I don't know how Shelly is going to get out of this - I don't think she can. In outing MOM, the worst that can happen to him is loss of reputation with the Court and a possible Florida Bar complaint - but I don't see how that is going to absolve her of having perjured herself.

ETA: AND fancy her being able to find an attorney who will represent her and put that allegation forward. It certainly will not be a local attorney - she will have to find an out of state attorney who is willing to come in and get special permission to appear in the Florida Courts.

Good point- but I think It's all thy have and they'll try and they will use it. And MOM will get kicked to the curb. I just think they love pulling unexpected drama and have been thinking of dumping him ever since he first billed them.


I feel similarly about an SYG hearing if GZ thinks he can handle himself on the stand he might try and go up there and repeat his lies and answer I don't know for anything else. If they won at SYG the STATE pays GZs lawyers fees. To GZ that's going to be a big temptation. These interviews might be a way for him to practice, test out his testimony and fundraise at the same time.

CherokeeNative wrote:

WeeBonnie wrote:I THINK I GOT IT!!!

They are throwing MOM under the bus at SZs hearing.
And GZ dumps him (without paying)and somehow looks reasonable again to his dumbass suppoters.

The failed PR and fundraising efforts might have turned things around for MOM but the temptation of $$$$, a bombshell excuse for Shell (good chapter for his book) and regaining the unbridled support of those Treepers is going to be too much for GZ.

Shells upcoming hearing is the only reason he is delaying this. He's always lied and screwed over lawyers before- I'm sure he'll do it again.

I agree that the only excuse Shelly has is to claim that MOM knew about the funds and told them all it was unimportant - BUT even throwing MOM under the bus will not erase the fact that she lied under oath. Another person's encouragement to you committing a crime does not relieve you for having committed it. I would also think that MOM is feeling a little bit secure in the fact that - who are you going to believe? The mild attorney who has an impeccable reputation with the Court? Or two low-life criminal defendants who are pointing fingers to absolve themselves of committing perjury? I don't know how Shelly is going to get out of this - I don't think she can. In outing MOM, the worst that can happen to him is loss of reputation with the Court and a possible Florida Bar complaint - but I don't see how that is going to absolve her of having perjured herself.

ETA: AND fancy her being able to find an attorney who will represent her and put that allegation forward. It certainly will not be a local attorney - she will have to find an out of state attorney who is willing to come in and get special permission to appear in the Florida Courts.

True! I think GZ correctly knew she was not a publicity seeker and would disappear not to be heard from again if they just piled in the BS.
So MOM reclaimed the podium with their broke-ass story because talking about money is better than the jail calls or 9.
I also think they were going to use these interviews to preempt any negativity about the jail calls. All of a sudden GZ wears hoodies all the time, and prays for the parents.
Lester needs to think about a gag order ASAP. But then again....BDLR is right to say that all the things Lester said that might seemed biased were facts that MOM spoke about to the press. So as much as they disgust me, maybe all the yapping is good!

CherokeeNative wrote:WeeBonnie - I wish there was a way to put Witness #9's statements back in the media - even though it is irrelevant to the case, it is relevant to WHAT GZ is all about - his character. That is what all of this most recent fiasco has been about - to divert discussion away from Witness #9's statements - the interview w/SH; the revamping of GZ's web site, etc. all of it was just to stop discussions about Witness #9. There is no way the defense has gone through what is said to be approximately 400-500k in donations.

CherokeeNative wrote:WeeBonnie - I wish there was a way to put Witness #9's statements back in the media - even though it is irrelevant to the case, it is relevant to WHAT GZ is all about - his character. That is what all of this most recent fiasco has been about - to divert discussion away from Witness #9's statements - the interview w/SH; the revamping of GZ's web site, etc. all of it was just to stop discussions about Witness #9. There is no way the defense has gone through what is said to be approximately 400-500k in donations.

I agree that witness number nine's statement is important as it certainly addresses GZ's duplicitous nature. She pointed out how his actions with her when they were alone were quite different than when the rest of the family was present.

When GZ was before Judge L (love that guy) he sat there spouting his "yes sir, no sir" while one lie after another was being presented to the court. Again, on SH we saw meek and mild GZ, minus shaved head and facial hair, giving one conflicting statement after another.

I think GZ's cousin had his number and GZ and MOM both knew it.

It's making me crazy that Judge Lester is on vacation, the nerve of him! ;) I want to hear him say "F U, I'm staying on this case. Bond is revoked, I'm charging both of you dumbasses with contempt & ordering a gag order as of now! p.s. NO BOZOs allowed in my courtroom!"

That's my dream.


Freckles good post about him running, it's so damn obvious. It's really stupid that he's now trying to deny it. (but the dispatcher is a he not a she.) :)

Come to think of it, I haven't heard anything about him being interviewed and I'd like to hear his thoughts on the call.

--omara talks about their motion to DQ judgeL in the hannity interview part2. according to him, "the rule" doesn't allow the state to respond (i would think bernieDLR would know "the rule"..)

--begins here, @ approx. 4:30.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/index.html#/v/1745712226001/web-exclusive-mark-omara-on-upcoming-trial/?playlist_id=86924
July 20, 2012

Web exclusive: Mark O'Mara on upcoming trial

CherokeeNative wrote:

I agree that the only excuse Shelly has is to claim that MOM knew about the funds and told them all it was unimportant - BUT even throwing MOM under the bus will not erase the fact that she lied under oath. Another person's encouragement to you committing a crime does not relieve you for having committed it. I would also think that MOM is feeling a little bit secure in the fact that - who are you going to believe? The mild attorney who has an impeccable reputation with the Court? Or two low-life criminal defendants who are pointing fingers to absolve themselves of committing perjury? I don't know how Shelly is going to get out of this - I don't think she can. In outing MOM, the worst that can happen to him is loss of reputation with the Court and a possible Florida Bar complaint - but I don't see how that is going to absolve her of having perjured herself.

ETA: AND fancy her being able to find an attorney who will represent her and put that allegation forward. It certainly will not be a local attorney - she will have to find an out of state attorney who is willing to come in and get special permission to appear in the Florida Courts.

--i remember bill shaeffer (WFTV legal analyst) saying, when she was 1st arrested, that it probably wouldn't go to trial at all. she would plea/be given a fine (max $5000 for a 3rd degree felony) and be given 'some sort of' probabtion.

--i hope not! i want to see this play out, in court.

--i'm sure she has (wanna-be lawyer/judge) 'cutie' advising her on what to do. there is still no sign of an attorney listed on her court file, and the countdown is on---arraignment just 10 days away.

--a change up to the non emergency call transcript---by JQ's M Onan Batterload....love it!

[2m06s]Zimmerman: Shit, he's skipping.

[2m08s]SPD-NE: He's skipping? Did you say, "skipping"?

[2m10s][Sound of vehicle door chime]

[2m10s]Zimmerman: Skipping down towards the, ah, other entrance to the neighborhood.

[2m11s][Sound of car door closing]

[2m14s]SPD-NE: OK. Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?

[2m17s]Zimmerman: The back entrance.

[2m19s][Wind and/or breath sounds begin]

[2m21s]Zimmerman: These frolicking punks.

[2m23s]SPD-NE: Are you following him? [Wind and/or breath sounds]

[2m25s]Zimmerman: Yeah. [Wind and/or breath sounds]

[2m25s]SPD-NE: OK. Why would you do that? It's a kid in white gym shoes, light-colored pants and a big white photo button, and he's SKIPPING. Are you afraid he's a Droog? [Wind and/or breath sounds]

http://www.justicequest.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1674295&postcount=281

--also, if shellie does take a plea to avoid trial (up to a 5 year sentence)------she'll then have that FELONY on her record, and there goes her career of applying knuckle bandages to tiny head wounds..

--i can't imagine her entering a "not guilty" plea though---it's plain as day that she DID perjure herself and the state has the proof of that all laid out right in their probable cause doc.

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Shellie-Zimmerman-Arrest-6-12-12.pdf?mobile=nc
--shellie--probable cause for perjury.

So here we have another person charged with a crime in Florida who has a high priced attorney already in place. He, like Casey, has developed a rapport with his lawyer, no doubt. Now that it seems the bloom is off the rose and the donations are trickling in rather an pouring in... and there are no baby photographs/videos for George to sell... I suppose this means he gets to keep his lawyer at the expense of the tax payers again? As I said in another comment, I am sure many people are angry that George paid off his bills with the donations solicited for the purpose of his legal defense. But, never mind that... Florida will never charge him with fraud any more than I expect his wife to pay any real price for her perjury at George's urging and direction. Here in Florida it seems our legal system goes in for the kill and, when acquitted, the other potential charges fall by the wayside. At least it seems more people are smelling a rat and not just blindly doing what Hannity tells them to do... feed the rat. I thought Hannity was a little bit less than supportive of George during this last interview... must have been that "Martin was skipping along" thing that he was too embarrassed to be associated with? Zimmerman is a very poor liar and it's a shame, once again, that nobody seemed to have seriously called him out on this very bad habit long ago, imo. Also, it HAS to be the quest to collect more funds that would prompt his lawyer to allow such an interview imo.... that was the stupidest idea yet and so obvious.

Shellie had a conversation with GZ dureing his first spell in jail.He was makeing a lot of phone calls .Most prisoners have accsess to phones dureing there rec time .Watch TV shoot hoops if they have a hard ect gym time .An theres about 5 phones per 50 inmates so you may have to Q..an it can get pretty fraught..no cutsied no savesies..As GZ was in solitary he would have hade unfettered access to the phone.Also when you get your spirtual advisorer visit ect they are very easy to con /accomadate even more phone time with your loved ones..Via the phone at the chapell/synagouge.mosqe.ect an the goverment pays for the calls instead of the reverse charge or serveing prisoners can buy phone cards.At least in the UK they can,Anyway GZ was pizzzed at Shellie for getting a busy signal a few times he tried to phone her,So he tells her not to answer the phone to anyone from now on....Control Freak Much.....Shellie agrees to this .Some men control what there partner can or cant wear ditto who there freinds can be if any cut contact with family..But She then has to quallify with George if she should then Answer the phone if he called?As he just said not to answer to anyone?An she wasnt jojeing a genuine Q You can hear the exasperation in GZvoice as he ezplians of course to pick up when he called...She could well play the nieveitey didnt have a scooby doo what was going on regards the moneys in the peter pan account.If she was assured by some third party that money was not theres.Not for anything but a defence fund being set up by the grups grown ups further ups nothing to do with her or Georgie .As far as she knew that money didnt belong to her or GZ at the momment in time where she spoke under oath from some secret location.Otherwise known as air marshal guys kitchen.She could well act dumb an gain an aquitall at a jury trial for perjuary..Wouldnt even have to act that hard at all.An here is a novell though maybe she is genuinelly inoccent maybe she was under the impression that the defence fund in its entirety would go towards GZs legal defence expences attorneys fees an she had seen M O M or knew M O M had learned of the failed 37 grand transfer from pp acount.George had even allowcated 9 or seven grand of that to go to M O M.So she could well have assumed that since GZs attorney knew of the fund was dipping his toes into said fund.An said attorney had no problems with her saying under oath that She an gz were indegent for costs.Maybe she thought that was the case..If so I would want to slap M O M face off not advocateing violence but one good hard bitch slap.

--in omara's PC following "the interview" he begins by saying that he allowed the interview b/c they believe george is innocent blah di blah---then immediatley goes into it was out of "need and neccessity" , they're broke, gets in therealgz.com plug....in fact he promos the site/george needs $$$$$'s non stop by way of complaining that they didn't get to promo it on the hannity show.

--i would love to see george completely BROKE, zero donor$$$$ giving him so much as a penny, and having to file for indigency.

--the state (ok, the taxpayers) would pay his legal costs, but they sure wouldn't be on the hook for "reasonable living expenses" (and we've seen what THOSE entail...from fast food drive-throughs to pricey cell phones..) to the defendant.

--then where would george be? how could he (as omara put it, "support and protect his family"?) where would he live? (baez was no doubt thrilled beyond belief that kc WAS kept in jail, so he didn't have to deal w/ it.) what would he live ON? the security detail would be long gone ----good grief, he'd be on the phone every 5 seconds reporting suspicious people that he thought were out to get him.

--maybe omara is giving him this free reign, hoping he'll do/say something to have his bond revoked and be back in the slammer where he's not omara&co's problem..?

ecossie possie wrote:Shellie had a conversation with GZ dureing his first spell in jail.He was makeing a lot of phone calls .Most prisoners have accsess to phones dureing there rec time .Watch TV shoot hoops if they have a hard ect gym time .An theres about 5 phones per 50 inmates so you may have to Q..an it can get pretty fraught..no cutsied no savesies..As GZ was in solitary he would have hade unfettered access to the phone.Also when you get your spirtual advisorer visit ect they are very easy to con /accomadate even more phone time with your loved ones..Via the phone at the chapell/synagouge.mosqe.ect an the goverment pays for the calls instead of the reverse charge or serveing prisoners can buy phone cards.At least in the UK they can,Anyway GZ was pizzzed at Shellie for getting a busy signal a few times he tried to phone her,So he tells her not to answer the phone to anyone from now on....Control Freak Much.....Shellie agrees to this .Some men control what there partner can or cant wear ditto who there freinds can be if any cut contact with family..But She then has to quallify with George if she should then Answer the phone if he called?As he just said not to answer to anyone?An she wasnt jojeing a genuine Q You can hear the exasperation in GZvoice as he ezplians of course to pick up when he called...She could well play the nieveitey didnt have a scooby doo what was going on regards the moneys in the peter pan account.If she was assured by some third party that money was not theres.Not for anything but a defence fund being set up by the grups grown ups further ups nothing to do with her or Georgie .As far as she knew that money didnt belong to her or GZ at the momment in time where she spoke under oath from some secret location.Otherwise known as air marshal guys kitchen.She could well act dumb an gain an aquitall at a jury trial for perjuary..Wouldnt even have to act that hard at all.An here is a novell though maybe she is genuinelly inoccent maybe she was under the impression that the defence fund in its entirety would go towards GZs legal defence expences attorneys fees an she had seen M O M or knew M O M had learned of the failed 37 grand transfer from pp acount.George had even allowcated 9 or seven grand of that to go to M O M.So she could well have assumed that since GZs attorney knew of the fund was dipping his toes into said fund.An said attorney had no problems with her saying under oath that She an gz were indegent for costs.Maybe she thought that was the case..If so I would want to slap M O M face off not advocateing violence but one good hard bitch slap.

--good post "ecossie"!

--you're certainly right that shellie could play dumb, by just acting naturally ( i heard the jail call you mention----i mean seriously shellie!)

--but, she did know they had access to the $$$$'s and that it wasn't all for "the defense fund"---as she was writing chqs PRE bond hearing1, paying sam's club/T-mobile/car pymts/target etc w/ the new found donor-dollar$.

--if this gets to trial, it's hard to say what she'll come up w/....w/out bringing george/and or omara down w/ her.

ecossie possie wrote:Shellie had a conversation with GZ dureing his first spell in jail....Anyway GZ was pizzzed at Shellie for getting a busy signal a few times he tried to phone her,So he tells her not to answer the phone to anyone from now on....Control Freak Much.....Shellie agrees to this .Some men control what there partner can or cant wear ditto who there freinds can be if any cut contact with family..But She then has to quallify with George if she should then Answer the phone if he called?As he just said not to answer to anyone?An she wasnt jojeing a genuine Q You can hear the exasperation in GZvoice as he ezplians of course to pick up when he called...She could well play the nieveitey didnt have a scooby doo what was going on regards the moneys ...

I agree Ecossie that SZ is pretty dense but I think taking the longer view of what was actually taking place - the controlled moving of funds in specific amounts, out of the PP account, to George's, to hers and G's sister, and then back again - I don't think SZ will be able to play dumb or convince anyone of her innocence in this matter. Also I think intent plays a large part here and also in Lester's reaction: the conspiratorial nature of their conversations, the whole Bonnie and Clyde thing, whispering, fake code, fake names, even speaking in Spanish (what was that about? who were they hiding their conversation from in that instance, or trying to hide their conversation?) - I don't think SZ can pull it off to claim ignorance of intent to deceive...etc. imo

This is the action of a guilty person to hide secrete himself away safe house four grand a day on body gaurds .Prom papppartissi not treats .Does tv show wife told him he was now a CELEB or something his firt time in jail .Georgeboy said he wasnr scared but EXCITED..Shellie reafirms this tells him he should be EXCITED an that they will have such a WONDERFULL LIFE.Together an cant beleive the petty things that they used to stress over ..They were are not important...Off course they were arent important as they were financial stress or lack offf said finances.GZ may be color blind but finance never is your either RED or BLACK..An all the zimmermans bills /finances were RED Before he MURDERED An INOCCENT YOUTH BUYING POP AN CANDY.To watch a BBall game gunned down within sight of saftei ie his Fathers house.Dont know if this is true but why should he tell a blatant lie.But TRAYVONS Father said his son saved his life woke him up in a house fire place filling with smoke both got out safe Travon was Nine years old..Seen this in print an he also mentions it in a vt where he does a heart breaking re enactment off what his Sons last route would have been an comes to the spot where his body lay will try an find vt unless someone has it already.?Anyway Trayvon was a real HERO .And any money comeing the zimmermans way at the momment may take them out of the BLACK Financeialy but its still in the RED..Because its BLOOD MONEY...casey anthony was a cold hearted baby murderer .She MURDERED HER OWN CHILD..everyone knew it her own family knew it .Her own defence knew it She knew it we all KNEW IT .The DOGS in the street knew she had done it an was guilty,She didnt go into hideing george.She lived at her parents an visited her attorneys office every day.Went to probation offices twice a week per curfew wore a gps tag moniter round the ankle tether just like gz .Guilty people hide an read from pre arranged questions an scripts .THE TRUTH never changes...Running doesnt become skipping just because you NOW SAY SO...We have your own running commentry on the night were up on you exit you car an tell the non emergancy diss.That your chaseing him affter you said HE s RUNNING..Cant say you never followed him an were simply looking for an adress to give to LE per the non emergancys instructions.Because no such request was made.You ended the call abrubtly telling the dispatcher to have the officers call you when they arrived an youd tell them where you would be.Cant claim Trayvon came out of no where an assaulted you at the T .As you headed back to your vechicle haveing all of a suden given up on your pusuit of the REAL SUSPISIOUS GUY .HE IS UP TO SOMETHING..DONT KNOW WHAT HIS DEAL IS.he is cheching me out .He Running.Trayvons lifeless BODY was found about 50 odd feet away from where GZ saidTRAYVON attacked him .Trayvons body was in the direction of home of fleeing away not vice verca attacking.Dee Dee is the witness to his lie that Trayvon attacked him .Dee Dee is the un seen witness that proves gz chased down Trayvon .Gz says Trayvon came out of no where ?at the T aked him what his problem was HOMIE..Gz reached for his phone to phone 911 ,Saying no problem an as he reached for his phone looke d down because he all of a sudden realised it wasnt there .An T M simaltaniously sucker punched him an said well you got a problem now.An he either fell down.Staggered a bit an then fell down.Got sucker punched staggered a bit doeasnt remeber if he fell down or perhaps Trayvon pushed him to the ground..The truth it the truth is the truth it never changes..Thankfully we have the one true statement wittness that is GZ an the words he uttered to the disspatcher that night.An we also have Dee Dee the witness unseen to gz be cause of hands free phone app an headphones.The truth never changes an most times THE TRUTH WILL OUT ...AN when that day comes gz goose is well an truelly cooked

Angela ..Any decent defence lawer could easily counter that the movement of money wasnt to hide it .It was a neseccity when gz was arrested.He no longer had acces to the bank or even the internet.An as it had been funds colllected under his name therealgz site an the pp account set up in his name.It could be argued that he had to divert the funds an transfer the bulk of the monies to someone other than you could accsess the funds whilst you where locked up..How is that hideing funds..An as soon as you gain your freedom on bond.You explain to your attorney exactly how much is in the Defence plus expences pp acount.An he high tails it to a Hearing an has your ass thrown back in Prison an your wife arrested for perjuary?

ellejay wrote:--in omara's PC following "the interview" he begins by saying that he allowed the interview b/c they believe george is innocent blah di blah---then immediatley goes into it was out of "need and neccessity" , they're broke, gets in therealgz.com plug....in fact he promos the site/george needs $$$$$'s non stop by way of complaining that they didn't get to promo it on the hannity show.

--i would love to see george completely BROKE, zero donor$$$$ giving him so much as a penny, and having to file for indigency.

--the state (ok, the taxpayers) would pay his legal costs, but they sure wouldn't be on the hook for "reasonable living expenses" (and we've seen what THOSE entail...from fast food drive-throughs to pricey cell phones..) to the defendant.

--then where would george be? how could he (as omara put it, "support and protect his family"?) where would he live? (baez was no doubt thrilled beyond belief that kc WAS kept in jail, so he didn't have to deal w/ it.) what would he live ON? the security detail would be long gone ----good grief, he'd be on the phone every 5 seconds reporting suspicious people that he thought were out to get him.

--maybe omara is giving him this free reign, hoping he'll do/say something to have his bond revoked and be back in the slammer where he's not omara&co's problem..?

I'm sick of hearing "how will George protect & support his family"? George isn't any different than anyone else that has committed a crime. He should have thought about it before he followed & shot Trayvon. Deal with it.

alabama52 wrote:


I'm sick of hearing "how will George protect & support his family"? George isn't any different than anyone else that has committed a crime. He should have thought about it before he followed & shot Trayvon. Deal with it.

--the amazing part is---omara acts like george was supporting anyone! in the 1st place ,he couldn't even pay his own bills , mama was paying their rent, he was estranged from his dad and brother...his total net worth was probably those 2 quarters in the plastic baggie in his pocket!

ellejay wrote:--omara talks about their motion to DQ judgeL in the hannity interview part2. according to him, "the rule" doesn't allow the state to respond (i would think bernieDLR would know "the rule"..)

--begins here, @ approx. 4:30.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/index.html#/v/1745712226001/web-exclusive-mark-omara-on-upcoming-trial/?playlist_id=86924
July 20, 2012

Web exclusive: Mark O'Mara on upcoming trial

MOM mistated the rule - the rule is that the Judge cannot oppose the motion on the merits, but he can certainly rule on it's sufficiency - and I hope he rules that it is legally insufficient.

ecossie possie wrote:Angela ..Any decent defence lawer could easily counter that the movement of money wasnt to hide it .It was a neseccity when gz was arrested.He no longer had acces to the bank or even the internet.An as it had been funds colllected under his name therealgz site an the pp account set up in his name.It could be argued that he had to divert the funds an transfer the bulk of the monies to someone other than you could accsess the funds whilst you where locked up..How is that hideing funds..An as soon as you gain your freedom on bond.You explain to your attorney exactly how much is in the Defence plus expences pp acount.An he high tails it to a Hearing an has your ass thrown back in Prison an your wife arrested for perjuary?

But how is Shellie going to explain that she had already spent close to 40k before the first bond hearing on personal bills, Target, etc., and then say she didn't know the funds were theirs to spend? Nope, I ain't buying it. Her testimony in Court, the jail taped convos, and the paper trail of transfers demonstrate that they were hiding the money and that Shellie perjured herself in Court. There isn't any way out of it. Now, she may have some excuse like MOM told us to do it, but that doesn't relieve her of the crime of perjury. That is merely a mitigating factor that if the Judge or Jury chooses to believe could give her a lighter sentence. JMO

ETA - And I doubt very seriously that Corey is going to enter into any form of plea deal unless it includes Shellie turning state's evidence against GZ. That would be the only way Corey would make a plea deal.

ellejay wrote:

alabama52 wrote:


I'm sick of hearing "how will George protect & support his family"? George isn't any different than anyone else that has committed a crime. He should have thought about it before he followed & shot Trayvon. Deal with it.

--the amazing part is---omara acts like george was supporting anyone! in the 1st place ,he couldn't even pay his own bills , mama was paying their rent, he was estranged from his dad and brother...his total net worth was probably those 2 quarters in the plastic baggie in his pocket!

The fact that he and Shellie discussed living "the good life" after this is all over just turns my stomach. They are obviously of the impression that peoples' donations and future book deals and interviews are going to enrich their lives immensely. They are already trying to live the high life - and although we do not know GZ was staying during his first bond, we have heard enough through jail house conversations to know that it was a large residence that apparently had "views" because GZ was so concerned that it not be blocked from the bath tub. Even if I believed that GZ was innocent, I would be appaulled that he would waste the hard earned monies of others who parted with it to provide his defense on such frivolous benefits. I certainly hope people are starting to see "the real George Zimmerman" for what he truly is. That this couple actually looks forward to reaping rewards for killing a young teenager is disgusting and certainly not "Gods plan." Until she comes forward and repudiates what GZ is saying, I put her in the same category as GZ. So as far as I am concerned, they can both rot in prison and I hope they get the maximum possible.

Professor Leatherman has a new post up:

http://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/2012/07/21/zimmerman-oh-the-irony-of-it-all/

ellejay wrote:

alabama52 wrote:


I'm sick of hearing "how will George protect & support his family"? George isn't any different than anyone else that has committed a crime. He should have thought about it before he followed & shot Trayvon. Deal with it.

--the amazing part is---omara acts like george was supporting anyone! in the 1st place ,he couldn't even pay his own bills , mama was paying their rent, he was estranged from his dad and brother...his total net worth was probably those 2 quarters in the plastic baggie in his pocket!

That's a great point, elle! I wish we could comment/ask questions instead of these crappy TV talking heads.

serenaz1 wrote:

ellejay wrote:

--the amazing part is---omara acts like george was supporting anyone! in the 1st place ,he couldn't even pay his own bills , mama was paying their rent, he was estranged from his dad and brother...his total net worth was probably those 2 quarters in the plastic baggie in his pocket!

That's a great point, elle! I wish we could comment/ask questions instead of these crappy TV talking heads.

Has anyone tried using GZ's email? I am curious to see if he will respond.

CherokeeNative wrote:

serenaz1 wrote:

That's a great point, elle! I wish we could comment/ask questions instead of these crappy TV talking heads.

Has anyone tried using GZ's email? I am curious to see if he will respond.

--while on my daily stroll&roll through the gzlegal comments, i did notice a couple of donor$$$$ mention that they rec'd a personal thank you! (from their king himself, i guess)---of course that was in response to their parting w/ their $$$'s--- (so george/shellie can blow it on whatever the he** they're considering 'resaonable living' expenses these days.)

--i didn't see anything re: sending "words of encouragement" only.

George still has this Pay Pal acct Accepting donations:

friendsofgz@gmail.com

It hurt to do it, but I HAD to know, and sending a dollar was the only way.
Does anyone know if this is the "personal acct" he LIED to MOM about closing or was there another?

WeeBonnie wrote:George still has this Pay Pal acct Accepting donations:

friendsofgz@gmail.com

It hurt to do it, but I HAD to know, and sending a dollar was the only way.
Does anyone know if this is the "personal acct" he LIED to MOM about closing or was there another?

--that's the email address for therealgz.com to "communicate" w/ george.

--i don't understand --how did you send money to a paypal acct. linked to the email address?

ETA---nevermind bonnie! i'm clearly not thinking today.

That's one of the most basic ways PayPal works.
If you register- anyone can then send you money using only the email addy. No website with "donate" buttons needed at all.
He didn't close his personal acct when he mailed the 122K to MOM, he collected another 7k to his personal site by the day after his second bond hearing. People never mention this.
So, I don't think he ever shut it down. He may have just switched the linked bank acct to Shellie. Because his supporters have the old email on file and he's greedy.

The legal acct has a different email acct linked. And all of the emails would naturally work as emails also, so you can send messages to either.

ellejay wrote:

WeeBonnie wrote:George still has this Pay Pal acct Accepting donations:

friendsofgz@gmail.com

It hurt to do it, but I HAD to know, and sending a dollar was the only way.
Does anyone know if this is the "personal acct" he LIED to MOM about closing or was there another?

--that's the email address for therealgz.com to "communicate" w/ george.

--i don't understand --how did you send money to a paypal acct. linked to the email address?

WeeBonnie wrote:....
It hurt to do it, but I HAD to know, and sending a dollar was the only way.
...

Don't know how involved you want to get, but you might want to send this info on to BDLR/judge etc because I bet some of those dudes being of my generation are not necessarily so savvy about this stuff and prob have no idea what's really going on ... which is prob why GZ has so much righteous bravado and arrogance.

WeeBonnie wrote:George still has this Pay Pal acct Accepting donations:

friendsofgz@gmail.com

It hurt to do it, but I HAD to know, and sending a dollar was the only way.
Does anyone know if this is the "personal acct" he LIED to MOM about closing or was there another?

You should have sent twenty eight cents (.28) a penny for every year of his worthless life.

CherokeeNative wrote:

ellejay wrote:

--the amazing part is---omara acts like george was supporting anyone! in the 1st place ,he couldn't even pay his own bills , mama was paying their rent, he was estranged from his dad and brother...his total net worth was probably those 2 quarters in the plastic baggie in his pocket!

The fact that he and Shellie discussed living "the good life" after this is all over just turns my stomach. They are obviously of the impression that peoples' donations and future book deals and interviews are going to enrich their lives immensely. They are already trying to live the high life - and although we do not know GZ was staying during his first bond, we have heard enough through jail house conversations to know that it was a large residence that apparently had "views" because GZ was so concerned that it not be blocked from the bath tub. Even if I believed that GZ was innocent, I would be appaulled that he would waste the hard earned monies of others who parted with it to provide his defense on such frivolous benefits. I certainly hope people are starting to see "the real George Zimmerman" for what he truly is. That this couple actually looks forward to reaping rewards for killing a young teenager is disgusting and certainly not "Gods plan." Until she comes forward and repudiates what GZ is saying, I put her in the same category as GZ. So as far as I am concerned, they can both rot in prison and I hope they get the maximum possible.

That could have been the ONLY thing they were discussing on that jail house tape. They both seen more money than they ever had in their life time (just within a few days). This swayed their attention from the serious charge against him. Now that the donations have ceased somewhat they are getting nervous. How is O'Mara going to keep giving money from the defense fund for George and Shellie to be living in hotels with high priced security and getting room service. Actually that money should be gone by now and both G & S better find another safe house that doesn't require such security. (if it's a SAFE house it shouldn't require security).

They can both forget about a book deal making them rich. Once Zimmerman is founf "guilty" that goes out the window. Life Time will make a movie and don't have to pay a cent to Zimmerman for it.

I just realized that Trayvon had just turned 17 three weeks before this happen. This has really pulled at my heart strings. From my experience raising boys there is a big different from the age of 16 thru the end of their 17year. There is a lot of growing up they do in this time period. This child must have been scared when George was pursuing him. I really would expect someone that is 28yr to have more sense on how to handle this situation that a kid who just turned 17 years old. If he did get a punch in I have no doubt it was because he was scared and was standing his ground. I know that my kids would have been scared about someone following them.
They were always told that they don't go with a stranger without putting up a fight. We know that George did not identify himself so what could this kid think other then this person was there to do him harm.

snowbird wrote:I just realized that Trayvon had just turned 17 three weeks before this happen. This has really pulled at my heart strings. From my experience raising boys there is a big different from the age of 16 thru the end of their 17year. There is a lot of growing up they do in this time period. This child must have been scared when George was pursuing him. I really would expect someone that is 28yr to have more sense on how to handle this situation that a kid who just turned 17 years old. If he did get a punch in I have no doubt it was because he was scared and was standing his ground. I know that my kids would have been scared about someone following them.
They were always told that they don't go with a stranger without putting up a fight. We know that George did not identify himself so what could this kid think other then this person was there to do him harm.

Snowbird - this is one of the points that inflamed me about this case. This kid was sixteen actually - you don't all of a sudden mature in 3 weeks... and a sixteen year old boy has the mentality of a 13 year old compared to a girl if I recall. He was just a little boy having to deal with a man's situation - he was freaked out of his mind and had his girlfriend on the phone who he could not show fear to. He had to try and be a man even though he wasn't. So yeah, if he TRULY punched GZ, which I am not too sure he did, then he did it out of extreme fear. Standing his Ground. Personally, I hate GZ more now than I did originally because he has absolutely no remorse - none - and in fact, is hoping for a windfall financial gain from his murder.

CherokeeNative wrote:

snowbird wrote:I just realized that Trayvon had just turned 17 three weeks before this happen. This has really pulled at my heart strings. From my experience raising boys there is a big different from the age of 16 thru the end of their 17year. There is a lot of growing up they do in this time period. This child must have been scared when George was pursuing him. I really would expect someone that is 28yr to have more sense on how to handle this situation that a kid who just turned 17 years old. If he did get a punch in I have no doubt it was because he was scared and was standing his ground. I know that my kids would have been scared about someone following them.
They were always told that they don't go with a stranger without putting up a fight. We know that George did not identify himself so what could this kid think other then this person was there to do him harm.

Snowbird - this is one of the points that inflamed me about this case. This kid was sixteen actually - you don't all of a sudden mature in 3 weeks... and a sixteen year old boy has the mentality of a 13 year old compared to a girl if I recall. He was just a little boy having to deal with a man's situation - he was freaked out of his mind and had his girlfriend on the phone who he could not show fear to. He had to try and be a man even though he wasn't. So yeah, if he TRULY punched GZ, which I am not too sure he did, then he did it out of extreme fear. Standing his Ground. Personally, I hate GZ more now than I did originally because he has absolutely no remorse - none - and in fact, is hoping for a windfall financial gain from his murder.

You are so right, Zimmerman shows no remorse at all. I believe that he feels as though he was a hero and from his "so called supporters" he feels justified. I can't wait for the trial. Even though they say that he has to take the stand, I think he will worm his way out of it some way. His whole demeanor has changed while doing that interview. O'Mara has tried to soften him up but his true self is going to be revealed by the prosecution, I have no doubt. He has told too many lies as to what happened that night, lies that he wont be able to take back.

And, I hope he realizes by now that he will end up broke and in hiding just like CA.

CherokeeNative wrote:

snowbird wrote:I just realized that Trayvon had just turned 17 three weeks before this happen. This has really pulled at my heart strings. From my experience raising boys there is a big different from the age of 16 thru the end of their 17year. There is a lot of growing up they do in this time period. This child must have been scared when George was pursuing him. I really would expect someone that is 28yr to have more sense on how to handle this situation that a kid who just turned 17 years old. If he did get a punch in I have no doubt it was because he was scared and was standing his ground. I know that my kids would have been scared about someone following them.
They were always told that they don't go with a stranger without putting up a fight. We know that George did not identify himself so what could this kid think other then this person was there to do him harm.

Snowbird - this is one of the points that inflamed me about this case. This kid was sixteen actually - you don't all of a sudden mature in 3 weeks... and a sixteen year old boy has the mentality of a 13 year old compared to a girl if I recall. He was just a little boy having to deal with a man's situation - he was freaked out of his mind and had his girlfriend on the phone who he could not show fear to. He had to try and be a man even though he wasn't. So yeah, if he TRULY punched GZ, which I am not too sure he did, then he did it out of extreme fear. Standing his Ground. Personally, I hate GZ more now than I did originally because he has absolutely no remorse - none - and in fact, is hoping for a windfall financial gain from his murder.

I am not too sure if he punch George either and there is no way I believe that his head is head on the sidewalk. I never forget when I first heard the 911 call. To me that was a young kid, there was no way that was a 28yr man.
The man has no remorse at all for what he did, if he would have had remorse he would have said that he would have done things differently. It was a bunch of BS when he said how bad he felt when Trayvon was young and no trouble past. Maybe someone could believe that if they didn't listen to the police interview, but he had no remorse when they told him this, he could have said that he was sorry at that time but he kept his mouth shut. I think this is when George realize he was in trouble, he was sure that the kid he shot was a thug who had be out committing crimes and he would be the neighborhood hero.
He has changed several parts of his story but he can't come up with a reason he thought this kid was a suspect. All he can say was he was walking and it was raining.
I believe if George would not have had a gun, he would not have gotten out to follow Trayvon. George felt empowered by his gun. What a sad, sad little man.

Hi, I'm posting for the first time here. Excuse my english.

An interesting case in Florida about the danger of black males anyway:

http://www.bradenton.com/2012/07/22/4123199/miami-mans-tale-of-attack-unravels.html
“MIAMI — A 22-year-old man who was found bloodied and disoriented [on july 6] in a downtown parking garage told police he was attacked [ by 4 or 5 black males ] and was hospitalized for days while the cops looked for potential assailants.
A video finally showed that:” It turns out Rene Betancourt was beat up, but not by thugs — by a garage”
The two best parts:

1) his mother being relieved he had not been attacked…but not sorry for the false accusation:
She was relieved to know her son had not been attacked."For the way that my son looked, it seemed like an assault," she said. The family jumped for joy when detective told them it was an accident.
2) the police not charging because of the gravity of his injuries
"Mr. Betancourt alleged that he had been robbed," said Kenia Reyes, the department's public information officer. "But it appears that because of the severity of his head injuries, we will not file charges."

Conclusion:
If you mess seriously, then it is OK to try to cover up by falsely accusing black males.
Reminds you of somebody?

Falsely accusing black males reminds me of two other cases, off the top of my head. The first was the Charles Stuart case in Boston in the early 90's. Charles Stuart shot and killed his very pregnant wife in their car, just after leaving a birthing class. He also shot himself in the stomach. He had arranged for his brother to drive by so that he could throw him the gun and his wife's jewelry. He claimed that a black man shot them. His premature son lived for a week or so in the intensive care unit. Boston police stopped black men all over the city for several weeks until Stuart's story fell apart.

The other case I thought of was the woman who drove her car into a lake with her two young sons inside it, and claimed that a black man carjacked her car.

snowbird wrote:

CherokeeNative wrote:

Snowbird - this is one of the points that inflamed me about this case. This kid was sixteen actually - you don't all of a sudden mature in 3 weeks... and a sixteen year old boy has the mentality of a 13 year old compared to a girl if I recall. He was just a little boy having to deal with a man's situation - he was freaked out of his mind and had his girlfriend on the phone who he could not show fear to. He had to try and be a man even though he wasn't. So yeah, if he TRULY punched GZ, which I am not too sure he did, then he did it out of extreme fear. Standing his Ground. Personally, I hate GZ more now than I did originally because he has absolutely no remorse - none - and in fact, is hoping for a windfall financial gain from his murder.

I am not too sure if he punch George either and there is no way I believe that his head is head on the sidewalk. I never forget when I first heard the 911 call. To me that was a young kid, there was no way that was a 28yr man.
The man has no remorse at all for what he did, if he would have had remorse he would have said that he would have done things differently. It was a bunch of BS when he said how bad he felt when Trayvon was young and no trouble past. Maybe someone could believe that if they didn't listen to the police interview, but he had no remorse when they told him this, he could have said that he was sorry at that time but he kept his mouth shut. I think this is when George realize he was in trouble, he was sure that the kid he shot was a thug who had be out committing crimes and he would be the neighborhood hero.
He has changed several parts of his story but he can't come up with a reason he thought this kid was a suspect. All he can say was he was walking and it was raining.
I believe if George would not have had a gun, he would not have gotten out to follow Trayvon. George felt empowered by his gun. What a sad, sad little man.

I am the mother of two teenage boys, and I agree with your comments about Trayvon. One of my sons is a bit older than Trayvon and I can remember well what 16/17 year old boys are like.

WeeBonnie wrote:Some thoughts:

GZ now says he wears hoodies because he's trying to explain away all his joking. As if it's a normal, unremarkable (and totally pointless) thing that he's talking about wearing them. What about going to the Trayvon rally - I bet he'll say he wanted to pray for them now!

Trayvon is not running, was not scared of GZ because chasing a scared person might be evidence of depravity.

MOM is better at press manipulation than I thought. Thays what this were broke BS is a distraction. All news reporting of his phone calls and witness 9 stopped dead in their tracks the moment they announced he was doing Hannity.
MOM wanted us to stop looking at those- and we did.
I think they might want to do the SYG hearing ONLY to draw out the prosecution. The they can refine (base)their defense on the best Internet chatter they find after.

Red by me.

So. If Trayvon was not running and was not scared, WHY would Trayvon have "attacked" GZ and slammed his head into the side walk many times almost leaving GZ a vegetable fit for dicing?

This is for GZ:

This has bugged me since a poster first asked it:
Why were Trayvon's arms under him?

The image I have, since I wasn't there, is Trayvon face down, arms tucked under his torso, face turned to one side.

That sounds like the famous Kent State shooting of the early 1970s. The young college student walking across campus and fired on by troopers. The run-away teen girl, Allison, who saw him fall and is screaming for help. The photographer from Life magazine (?) snapped the pic.

Here it is:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://chandrakantha.com/articles/indian_music/filmi_sangeet/media/1970_kent_state_shooting.jpg&imgrefurl=http://chandrakantha.com/articles/indian_music/filmi_sangeet/film_song_1970_world.html&h=355&w=475&sz=24&tbnid=I2EBW6gL2jVRBM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=116&zoom=1&usg=__fDdpn81uEri80xb_aVpAnZigKH8=&docid=LrHGMUe1NySZEM&sa=X&ei=3uoMUPGINImQ9QSR06jrCg&ved=0CGsQ9QEwCg&dur=1049

I wonder if GZ has seen this picture or was told about it?

We've discussed the question of TM's arms under him.

Zim said he spread out TM's arms.
Witness said the arms were out like TM was swimming.
Police officer said arms were under him - but is there anything to back that up? Were "pictures" taken of the arms under TM before he was turned over to give him CPR.
That's very doubtful.

Well George's interview with Hannity only scored him 10,000. That's about enough to take care of his security for about 3 days if he's lucky. Shellie is due to be arraigned next week. I wonder who is paying for her atty?

Gizmo711 wrote:Well George's interview with Hannity only scored him 10,000. That's about enough to take care of his security for about 3 days if he's lucky. Shellie is due to be arraigned next week. I wonder who is paying for her atty?

Do we even know who her attorney is?

Puzzler wrote:

Gizmo711 wrote:Well George's interview with Hannity only scored him 10,000. That's about enough to take care of his security for about 3 days if he's lucky. Shellie is due to be arraigned next week. I wonder who is paying for her atty?

Do we even know who her attorney is?

I do not see a notice of appearance filed


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Detailed Information for Case 592012CF001792A
Case Number: 592012CF001792A Judge: NELSON, DEBRA S
Defendant Name: SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN
DOB: 03/1987
Proceeding: ARRAIGNMENT SET Courtroom: 1A
Court Date: 07-31-2012 Time: 01:30PM
1 PERJURY IN OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS
06/14/2012 PFSA PRAECIPE STATE INVESTIGATION SUBP (1)
06/14/2012 CARE CAPIAS RETURNED EXECUTED
06/14/2012 SYS NOTICE FOR ARRAIGNMENT JUL 31, 2012 AT 01:30 PM PRINTED
06/13/2012 MEMO FROM THE COURT.
06/13/2012 MEMO FOR SHELLIE ZIMMERMAN HAS BEEN REDACTED FROM THIS FILE UNTIL FURTHER INSTRUCTION
06/13/2012 MEMO IN THE CASE OF STATE VS . GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, CASE NUMBER 12CF1083A, THE ADDRESS
06/13/2012 MEMO CLERKS MEMO TO CASE FILE: PURSUANT TO JUDGE LESTER'S ORDER DATED APRIL 30, 2012
06/13/2012 ARSC ARRAIGNMENT SET [A] - DATE: 07/31/2012 - TIME: 0130PM - CTRM: 1A
06/13/2012 BDSL BOND SLIP - TYPE: SU - BOND#: X60108219 - AMT: $1000.00 - NAME: MAGIC U S
06/13/2012 ORRT ORDER REASSIGNMENT AND TRANSFER - FROM: N TO: A : NELSON, DEBRA S
06/13/2012 ATFD ARREST REPORT - DATE: 06/13/2012
06/12/2012 CISG CAPIAS SIGNED AND ISSUED - DATE: 06/12/2012
06/12/2012 BDBD SET BONDSMAN - AMT: $1000.00
06/12/2012 CIDI CAPIAS ISSUED DIRECT - DATE: 06/12/2012
06/12/2012 AFPC AFFIDAVIT PROBABLE CAUSE
06/12/2012 IFFD INFORMATION FILED - DATE: 06/12/2012

Puzzler wrote:We've discussed the question of TM's arms under him.

Zim said he spread out TM's arms.
Witness said the arms were out like TM was swimming.
Police officer said arms were under him - but is there anything to back that up? Were "pictures" taken of the arms under TM before he was turned over to give him CPR.
That's very doubtful.

The first officer to the scene, T. Smith, who secures Zimmerman, observes a black male wearing a grey hooded sweatshirt laying face down in the grass.

Officer Ayala is the second officer to the scene who makes the observation regarding the hands being underneath the body.

Ayala is also the first person to make contact with Trayvon.

Officer Raimundo who attempts CPR on Trayvon only notes that Trayvon is face down with head pointing north.

The other officers at the scene or SFD do not report the location of Trayvon's hands.

No one took a photo of Trayvon's body upon arrival, that is there is not one publicly released to date.

Contemporaneous witnesses to the shooting observe Travyon's arms being out.

A Think the second le officer on the scence said he observed a male in custoday or at least speaking to the officer at the scence.He stated he saw another lieing prone on the grass with both hands /arms underneath..Not knowing what had ocoured he ordered the male on the grass to spread his arms out,,When the prone person didnt comply he felt for a pulse in a cataroid attery Neck an there was none.The fact he was concerned about not seeing his hands.I M O makes me think he is recalling a truthfull event.Arresting LE always insist on seeing your arms spread or hands on head in case you have a weapon or drugs ect...I beleive him over ZIMBAMASHOTAMAN any day.P S should be zimbamashotachild but it doesnt rhyme.

The arms were being moved about by GZ. GZ came up with a crazy story that he believed that lifeless body was still alive to cover his tracks. So- what were the tracks?
I think he may have tried to get some DNA on Trayvon's hands, and/ or Trayvon's prints on George's gun.
Because he needed a story.

Tamta wrote:

Puzzler wrote:We've discussed the question of TM's arms under him.

Zim said he spread out TM's arms.
Witness said the arms were out like TM was swimming.
Police officer said arms were under him - but is there anything to back that up? Were "pictures" taken of the arms under TM before he was turned over to give him CPR.
That's very doubtful.

The first officer to the scene, T. Smith, who secures Zimmerman, observes a black male wearing a grey hooded sweatshirt laying face down in the grass.

Officer Ayala is the second officer to the scene who makes the observation regarding the hands being underneath the body.

Ayala is also the first person to make contact with Trayvon.

Officer Raimundo who attempts CPR on Trayvon only notes that Trayvon is face down with head pointing north.

The other officers at the scene or SFD do not report the location of Trayvon's hands.

No one took a photo of Trayvon's body upon arrival, that is there is not one publicly released to date.

Contemporaneous witnesses to the shooting observe Travyon's arms being out.

W13 took pictures of before LE arrived. GZ's head, TM's body, and a flashlight.

WeeBonnie wrote:The arms were being moved about by GZ. GZ came up with a crazy story that he believed that lifeless body was still alive to cover his tracks. So- what were the tracks?
I think he may have tried to get some DNA on Trayvon's hands, and/ or Trayvon's prints on George's gun.
Because he needed a story.

One of the witnesses that was interviewed by the media stated that he/she saw Zimmerman's hands reaching under Trayvon's body. The witnesses said "I don't know what he was doing, it seemed like he was looking for something". I am trying to find the article where I read that information.

DebFrmHell wrote:

Tamta wrote:

The first officer to the scene, T. Smith, who secures Zimmerman, observes a black male wearing a grey hooded sweatshirt laying face down in the grass.

Officer Ayala is the second officer to the scene who makes the observation regarding the hands being underneath the body.

Ayala is also the first person to make contact with Trayvon.

Officer Raimundo who attempts CPR on Trayvon only notes that Trayvon is face down with head pointing north.

The other officers at the scene or SFD do not report the location of Trayvon's hands.

No one took a photo of Trayvon's body upon arrival, that is there is not one publicly released to date.

Contemporaneous witnesses to the shooting observe Travyon's arms being out.

BBM.

W13 took pictures of before LE arrived. GZ's head, TM's body, and a flashlight.

Duh.
Yes Deb, you are right!